WWE Possibly Bringing Back Kevin Nash and Scott Hall
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Laker_Town
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:31 am    Post subject:

yup the 80's was way better. the Ultimate Warrior,the rockers, and some of the characters that never panned out:


the genius
repo man
Kamala
brooklyn brawler....this guy was on every single Saturday/Sunday


the only thing wrong witht the matches then, was that no big names, ever fought each other. IT was always Cocoa B-ware against the brooklyn brawler and his beat up, torn up, shirt.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:12 am    Post subject:

DX v. NWO??? I thought the whole point was that they WERE tight before some fo them jumepd ship to WCW. Oh well...

To this day, I'm still amazed that Shawn Michaels can WALK, let alone drop flying axhandle elbow drops from the top turnbuckles anymore.

MIM
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:16 am    Post subject:

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Bret got what he deserved. He refused to drop the title. He is still bitter about it. Kinda pathetic

Disagree. Bret gave up more money (Twice the base year amount) to stay with a shinking WWE in 1996. I thought he was a goner at the time because everyone was jumping ship in 1996.

Then Vince convinces him to turn bad in the States, becoming Anti-American. That hurts his stock. Within a few months, Vince tells him he wants out and that he can leave on his own terms. He even gave Bret creative control which means he can dictate what type of finish he has in matches.

So along comes Survivor Series, Vince now changes his mind. He says Bret has to lose to Shawn Micheals.

Bret did the right thing. He fought for all wrestlers that have been screwed by mangement over the years. Most wrestlers greatly respect how Bret stood up like that. It took serious balls.

I agree with you on the not getting over it part. He took too long to get over it. Still, WWE are the one's that really ran with the whole "screwed" angle. Up until 2 years ago, I had seen Shawn still mention it and make fun of Bret on TV. If anyone needs to get over it, it's the WWE.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:52 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:
Bret got what he deserved. He refused to drop the title. He is still bitter about it. Kinda pathetic

Disagree. Bret gave up more money (Twice the base year amount) to stay with a shinking WWE in 1996. I thought he was a goner at the time because everyone was jumping ship in 1996.

Then Vince convinces him to turn bad in the States, becoming Anti-American. That hurts his stock. Within a few months, Vince tells him he wants out and that he can leave on his own terms. He even gave Bret creative control which means he can dictate what type of finish he has in matches.

So along comes Survivor Series, Vince now changes his mind. He says Bret has to lose to Shawn Micheals.

Bret did the right thing. He fought for all wrestlers that have been screwed by mangement over the years. Most wrestlers greatly respect how Bret stood up like that. It took serious balls.

I agree with you on the not getting over it part. He took too long to get over it. Still, WWE are the one's that really ran with the whole "screwed" angle. Up until 2 years ago, I had seen Shawn still mention it and make fun of Bret on TV. If anyone needs to get over it, it's the WWE.


I'm pretty sure Brett signed a 20 year contract. So it was more $ in the long run.

WWE still ran with it, because he cries about in every radio interview he does. He was still upset about even after he was inducted to the WWE HOF this past wrestlemania. He made HBK leave his induction.

He refused to drop the belt. Everyone drops the belt before they leave. Even Jeff Jarrett dropped the IC title to Chyna before he left. You can't have wrestlers not dropping titles or else you end up with madussa showing up on WCW TV throwing the Women's belt in the trash, and you can't forget Ric Flair showing up of WWF TV with the then NWA title challenging Hogan, and Savage.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject:

MIMLaker wrote:
DX v. NWO??? I thought the whole point was that they WERE tight before some fo them jumepd ship to WCW. Oh well...

To this day, I'm still amazed that Shawn Michaels can WALK, let alone drop flying axhandle elbow drops from the top turnbuckles anymore.

MIM


So am I. He is a shell of his former self but he is still a top 3 performer. Vince McMahon said-nobody has ever performed at his level, and he doubts anyone will ever do it again.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:13 pm    Post subject:

oops.

Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:14 pm    Post subject:

JD wrote:
Rowdy Roddy Piper (and the Piper's Pit)
The British Bulldogs
Wild Samoans
Sgt Slaughter
The Iron Sheik
Nikolai Volkoff
Hacksaw Jim Dugan
Million Dollar Man, Ted DiBiase
Ultimate Warrior
The Macho Man, Randy Savage (and Elizabeth)
Andre the Giant
Tito Santana
Rick Flair
Hillbilly Jim.
etc...

And of course... the Hulkster.

That's when wrestling kicked ass.


yup....when the ropes were still red white and blue, when it was cool to cheer for the good guys, the piledriver was still used and everyone had simple finishers like the leg drop, ddt, neckbraker etc. Late 80's early 90's.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject:

C-BUS - The difference is that all those guys had their contracts up and wanted to leave.

Bret stayed out of loyalty and you don't just kick him to the curb like that. Hell, Bret could have sued and won his guarnteed money on his contract but agreed with Vince that he would go look at WCW if they offered him the same deal. When Eric told Bret that the deal was still on the table, Bret told Vince that he would relunctantly leave but with an understanding that he go out a certain way.

Why do you think Bret had the creative control in his contract? For that reason - Vince agreed with Bret at the time that if he resigned from the WWF and signed with WCW that he could go out in a way he approved off. They made the agreement that Bret would drop the belt to Shawn in December in a 4-way match, where he wouldn't get pinned. That was what McMahon wanted originally. Then later on, they changed their mind and told Bret you gotta drop the belt to Shawn in Montreal.

They went back on their word. Everyone knows that. Maybe Bret should have still listened and not cared about dropping the belt in Canada, but the original ending that agreed upon was Bret dropping the belt in a 4-way match at the next PPV in December (Back when they used to have those "in your house" ones). I totally understand why Bret was mad about that. The whole process seemed like something they had conspired from the start (Vince, his close confidants, Shawn).
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject:

I thought the agreement was that dx was gonna interfere therefore hart would win by dq. Then, the belt would be declared vacant when hart lwould leave for wcw.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject:

LakerHabib wrote:
Random:
Anyone remember Razor Ramon vs Shawn Michaels laddermatch in Summer Slam '96?

that match was GREAT



yeahh!!. or better yet the very first ladder match at wrestlemania X.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
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Bret got what he deserved. He refused to drop the title. He is still bitter about it. Kinda pathetic

Disagree. Bret gave up more money (Twice the base year amount) to stay with a shinking WWE in 1996. I thought he was a goner at the time because everyone was jumping ship in 1996.

Then Vince convinces him to turn bad in the States, becoming Anti-American. That hurts his stock. Within a few months, Vince tells him he wants out and that he can leave on his own terms. He even gave Bret creative control which means he can dictate what type of finish he has in matches.

So along comes Survivor Series, Vince now changes his mind. He says Bret has to lose to Shawn Micheals.

Bret did the right thing. He fought for all wrestlers that have been screwed by mangement over the years. Most wrestlers greatly respect how Bret stood up like that. It took serious balls.

I agree with you on the not getting over it part. He took too long to get over it. Still, WWE are the one's that really ran with the whole "screwed" angle. Up until 2 years ago, I had seen Shawn still mention it and make fun of Bret on TV. If anyone needs to get over it, it's the WWE.


Completely agree.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:33 pm    Post subject:

bret hart isn't wrestling anymore is he?

he was my favorite as a kid....imo he's the goat.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:42 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Still, WWE are the one's that really ran with the whole "screwed" angle. Up until 2 years ago, I had seen Shawn still mention it and make fun of Bret on TV. If anyone needs to get over it, it's the WWE.


Why should they? Any mention of the Montreal Screwjob still gets excellent heat.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
bret hart isn't wrestling anymore is he?

he was my favorite as a kid....imo he's the goat.

Nope, he can't wrestle anymore due to the stroke that he had. The stroke was due the match that The Hit Man had with Goldberg.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:58 pm    Post subject:

wow didn't know he had a stroke. hope he's doing alright. i used to LOVE that guy. i had the shades and everything. his tribute match to owen vs. chris benoit was beautiful.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject:

Yeah sucks how it all ended for Bret.

Ocho- Bret wasn't the GOAT because Wrestling isn't a sport, it's sports entertainment (much more emphasis on the entertainment) and while I thought pure wrestling was amazing - Bret didn't sell in the US the way Hogan, Warrior, Austin and the Rock did. I think Bret is top 10 all time but can't be number 1 because he's not that type of seller/promoter.

Bret Hart is the GOAT in terms of actual in ring wrestling. Noone made it look more real. Every move of his was well thought out as were his matches. He really understood how to make Wrestling look like a real competitive sport. I loved watching his matches and actually would make it all look so real. He was amazing at that - especially with the creative ways he would come up with beating his opponents to end matches. The sharpshooter was his move, but he would end matches ussually with reversing a finishing move of his opponent and then pinnig him from there. That's how he beat guys like Yokozuna, Nash/Diesel, Steve Austin etc.

It's sad the way his career ended. Though I saw a show on him a year ago and he seems alot happier now. He is re-married to a hot young Italian woman and seems much more at peace with how things ended. He took so many hits with Owen dieing, Stu and Martha dieing, British Bulldog too - Soo many family deaths in a very short time frame. It was great to see him more upbeat and moving on with his life.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
C-BUS - The difference is that all those guys had their contracts up and wanted to leave.

Bret stayed out of loyalty and you don't just kick him to the curb like that. Hell, Bret could have sued and won his guarnteed money on his contract but agreed with Vince that he would go look at WCW if they offered him the same deal. When Eric told Bret that the deal was still on the table, Bret told Vince that he would relunctantly leave but with an understanding that he go out a certain way.

Why do you think Bret had the creative control in his contract? For that reason - Vince agreed with Bret at the time that if he resigned from the WWF and signed with WCW that he could go out in a way he approved off. They made the agreement that Bret would drop the belt to Shawn in December in a 4-way match, where he wouldn't get pinned. That was what McMahon wanted originally. Then later on, they changed their mind and told Bret you gotta drop the belt to Shawn in Montreal.

They went back on their word. Everyone knows that. Maybe Bret should have still listened and not cared about dropping the belt in Canada, but the original ending that agreed upon was Bret dropping the belt in a 4-way match at the next PPV in December (Back when they used to have those "in your house" ones). I totally understand why Bret was mad about that. The whole process seemed like something they had conspired from the start (Vince, his close confidants, Shawn).


Of course they conspired, they asked HIM to drop the title to Shawn, he refused. Once he decided he was going to WCW he needed to DROP the title to Michaels. The WWF was fading at the time, and Bret showing up on Nitro with the WWF championship would've been a death blow.

Once he signed with WCW he lost creative control. Creative control is why a piece of trash like Hogan still wins matches. The guy is probably the 5 worst in ring performers ever, and he still win matches.

Fun discussion Wolf.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:10 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
wow didn't know he had a stroke. hope he's doing alright. i used to LOVE that guy. i had the shades and everything. his tribute match to owen vs. chris benoit was beautiful.


Actually he took a legit super kick from Goldberg (terrible in ring perfomer) that gave him a serious concussion. Years later he had a stroke. Not sure if the stroke was a side affect of concussion or not.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:29 pm    Post subject:

C-Bus, I have followed this situation really well. Some of my good friends were working within the WWF Canada at that time and so I was privy to some information that really helped me form a good decision on who was right.

Around September of 97, Vince told Bret that he wanted out of the contract. Bret was shocked. Vince told Bret that he should go get the WCW deal. Bret called Eric Bischoff who had a good experience with in their talks the previous year - and Eric told him quickly that he would get the same deal.

Bret told McMahon that he didn't want to leave, and that maybe they should sort some things out and re-negotiate the contract. All while, Vince still hadn't paid Bret the money he was owed. Bret was still willing to stay for less money. Basically at that point Vince told Bret that he could stay but that he would have to turn back into a good guy in the US. Bret looked at that and realized that Vince basically didn't want him at all anymore because just a few months ago they decided that Bret must turn bad/heel for 2 years and then retire a babyface in his last year.

So he decided to agree to give his resignation knowing that they didn't want him at any price, with the agreement that Bret would have creative control IE say on what happens with his matches. When that happened, Bret was assured that the ending would be done properly. That he would get an interview on TV (Raw) to say goodbye, thank the fans and even prop McMahon/WWF one last time. That's what Bret wanted. A proper ending. He told McMahon that a million times. All he wanted was to go out the right way for the Hitman legacy/fans.

Basically Bret could have dropped the belt at a off-air event. He could have dropped it a week later or even two days earlier in Detroit. Vince set him up knowing full well that he wouldn't drop the belt there.

That's why I said this was a set up from maybe early in the year. The way they made him turn Anti-American (something that's pretty silly considering his mother is American) was basically to hurt the effect of him leaving the WWF. Once his stock was killed in the US, they told him "Ok, go to WCW now"

It was horrible thing to do to a guy that took less money to stay with you. He was loyal to a fault and they just stabbed him in the back. Ofcourse, I'm hardly saying Bret was without fault. The biggest reason I'm told that Bret was asked to leave is that he became kind of like a problem maker in the locker room. He had many issues with things that writers were putting on Raw and at the same time was acting like he was an owner/shareholder of the company. Management and most of Vince's crew were sick of Bret's actions behind the scenes. He would whine about everything that wasn't done his way and ofcourse had atleast 2-3 real fights with Shawn where he beat him up pretty bad. Vince was really afraid of the precedant that Bret was setting. Vince wanted to make an example of Hart so that noone else would ever challenge him or act like that again.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject:

Oh and Bret couldn't show up on Nitro the next day because he wasn't signed on contract until December.

Bret's WWF contract (30 days notice of resignation) ended in late November. What Vince used as an excuse was that Kevin Nash told his buddy Shawn Micheals that the NWO was going to go on Nitro and talk about Bret Hart coming over the next night.

However, Bret says that's not what was going to happen - Eric had told him that he wouldn't talk about Bret Hart until he was no longer champion. Also, Bret couldn't show up until his contract had expired with the WWF.

There was noway in hell that Bret was going to go to the WCW like that with the WWF belt.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject:

C-BUS LAKERFAN wrote:
MIMLaker wrote:
DX v. NWO??? I thought the whole point was that they WERE tight before some fo them jumepd ship to WCW. Oh well...

To this day, I'm still amazed that Shawn Michaels can WALK, let alone drop flying axhandle elbow drops from the top turnbuckles anymore.

MIM


So am I. He is a shell of his former self but he is still a top 3 performer. Vince McMahon said-nobody has ever performed at his level, and he doubts anyone will ever do it again.


IMHO, pound-for-pound, he was the best entertainer I've seen in 20 years off and on of watching. Reversals, aerial moves, athleticism, endurance, hardcore (which I was never a big fan of), antics, mike work, ease-of-play-on-the-arcade-games, "technical" moves, high-impact -- dude was/ is just FUN to watch.

Big guys. Small fries. Cruisers. Bruisers. Freaks. Frauds. Brawlers. Grapplers. Legends. Rookies. Michaels could/ can put on a show with ANY of them.

I don't watch nearly as much as I used to when I was younger, but if I'm flipping channels and HBK is on, heck yeah, I'll watch.

MIM
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
C-Bus, I have followed this situation really well. Some of my good friends were working within the WWF Canada at that time and so I was privy to some information that really helped me form a good decision on who was right.

Around September of 97, Vince told Bret that he wanted out of the contract. Bret was shocked. Vince told Bret that he should go get the WCW deal. Bret called Eric Bischoff who had a good experience with in their talks the previous year - and Eric told him quickly that he would get the same deal.

Bret told McMahon that he didn't want to leave, and that maybe they should sort some things out and re-negotiate the contract. All while, Vince still hadn't paid Bret the money he was owed. Bret was still willing to stay for less money. Basically at that point Vince told Bret that he could stay but that he would have to turn back into a good guy in the US. Bret looked at that and realized that Vince basically didn't want him at all anymore because just a few months ago they decided that Bret must turn bad/heel for 2 years and then retire a babyface in his last year.

So he decided to agree to give his resignation knowing that they didn't want him at any price, with the agreement that Bret would have creative control IE say on what happens with his matches. When that happened, Bret was assured that the ending would be done properly. That he would get an interview on TV (Raw) to say goodbye, thank the fans and even prop McMahon/WWF one last time. That's what Bret wanted. A proper ending. He told McMahon that a million times. All he wanted was to go out the right way for the Hitman legacy/fans.

Basically Bret could have dropped the belt at a off-air event. He could have dropped it a week later or even two days earlier in Detroit. Vince set him up knowing full well that he wouldn't drop the belt there.

That's why I said this was a set up from maybe early in the year. The way they made him turn Anti-American (something that's pretty silly considering his mother is American) was basically to hurt the effect of him leaving the WWF. Once his stock was killed in the US, they told him "Ok, go to WCW now"

It was horrible thing to do to a guy that took less money to stay with you. He was loyal to a fault and they just stabbed him in the back. Ofcourse, I'm hardly saying Bret was without fault. The biggest reason I'm told that Bret was asked to leave is that he became kind of like a problem maker in the locker room. He had many issues with things that writers were putting on Raw and at the same time was acting like he was an owner/shareholder of the company. Management and most of Vince's crew were sick of Bret's actions behind the scenes. He would whine about everything that wasn't done his way and ofcourse had atleast 2-3 real fights with Shawn where he beat him up pretty bad. Vince was really afraid of the precedant that Bret was setting. Vince wanted to make an example of Hart so that noone else would ever challenge him or act like that again.


I don't disagree with what you are saying except the reason I don't feel sorry for him was his "back stage cancer" antics. He should've just shut up and gone with the flow. Plain and simple. Seems like he hated the direction the company was going in.... so put HBK over, and go for the paycheck in WCW.

I'm sure his reluctance was in part because of Shawn. They obviously did not get along. And I'm sure it bugged Bret that HBK was a better face and heel than him, and for the near year HBK held the title WWF made it's biggest profit in 7 years. I'm sure it bugged Shawn that Bret got this huge contract, while he carried the WWF for a year having terrible wrestlers (Vader, Sid) to work with and then trying to put over mid carders (Bulldog, Owen) as main eventers.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Oh and Bret couldn't show up on Nitro the next day because he wasn't signed on contract until December.

Bret's WWF contract (30 days notice of resignation) ended in late November. What Vince used as an excuse was that Kevin Nash told his buddy Shawn Micheals that the NWO was going to go on Nitro and talk about Bret Hart coming over the next night.

However, Bret says that's not what was going to happen - Eric had told him that he wouldn't talk about Bret Hart until he was no longer champion. Also, Bret couldn't show up until his contract had expired with the WWF.

There was noway in hell that Bret was going to go to the WCW like that with the WWF belt.


I'm not even talking about Bret coming on Nitro the next night, but he could've go on when his contract is up. Don't think Ted Turner/Bischoff wouldn't have wanted to pay Bret a ton of $ to have him trash the belt on Nitro.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:48 pm    Post subject:

MIMLaker wrote:
C-BUS LAKERFAN wrote:
MIMLaker wrote:
DX v. NWO??? I thought the whole point was that they WERE tight before some fo them jumepd ship to WCW. Oh well...

To this day, I'm still amazed that Shawn Michaels can WALK, let alone drop flying axhandle elbow drops from the top turnbuckles anymore.

MIM


So am I. He is a shell of his former self but he is still a top 3 performer. Vince McMahon said-nobody has ever performed at his level, and he doubts anyone will ever do it again.


IMHO, pound-for-pound, he was the best entertainer I've seen in 20 years off and on of watching. Reversals, aerial moves, athleticism, endurance, hardcore (which I was never a big fan of), antics, mike work, ease-of-play-on-the-arcade-games, "technical" moves, high-impact -- dude was/ is just FUN to watch.

Big guys. Small fries. Cruisers. Bruisers. Freaks. Frauds. Brawlers. Grapplers. Legends. Rookies. Michaels could/ can put on a show with ANY of them.

I don't watch nearly as much as I used to when I was younger, but if I'm flipping channels and HBK is on, heck yeah, I'll watch.

MIM


Couldn't agree with you more. When you consider everything-Mic work, high flying, inovation, selling moves, the big bumps, gate draw, #1 face or #1 heel, he is the GOAT.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Yeah sucks how it all ended for Bret.

Ocho- Bret wasn't the GOAT because Wrestling isn't a sport, it's sports entertainment (much more emphasis on the entertainment) and while I thought pure wrestling was amazing - Bret didn't sell in the US the way Hogan, Warrior, Austin and the Rock did. I think Bret is top 10 all time but can't be number 1 because he's not that type of seller/promoter.

Bret Hart is the GOAT in terms of actual in ring wrestling. Noone made it look more real. Every move of his was well thought out as were his matches. He really understood how to make Wrestling look like a real competitive sport. I loved watching his matches and actually would make it all look so real. He was amazing at that - especially with the creative ways he would come up with beating his opponents to end matches. The sharpshooter was his move, but he would end matches ussually with reversing a finishing move of his opponent and then pinnig him from there. That's how he beat guys like Yokozuna, Nash/Diesel, Steve Austin etc.

It's sad the way his career ended. Though I saw a show on him a year ago and he seems alot happier now. He is re-married to a hot young Italian woman and seems much more at peace with how things ended. He took so many hits with Owen dieing, Stu and Martha dieing, British Bulldog too - Soo many family deaths in a very short time frame. It was great to see him more upbeat and moving on with his life.


I don't agree with Bret being the greatest in ring performer. By far the best technical wrestler I've ever seen though. He never used top rope moves. He would do a elbow smash from the middle rope, but that is about it. Never took The Big Bump either.

It is hard to decide who is the GOAT.

If you go by gate draw, Austin, Rock , and Hogan are at the top.

Bumps- Foley, HBK, and Jeff Hardy.

Longevity-Flair, Bruno Samartino

Big Men-Undertaker, Andre The Giant (only seen Andre at the end of his career when he was a shell of his former self)

Mic work-HBK, Austin, Rock, Kevin Nash

Technical-Bret, Benoit, Dean Malenko

Inovation-Michaels, Foley/Funk

some of the worst in ring performers ever-Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Goldberg, Sid, Vader. Funny that Hogan/Warrior wrestlemania was a good match. Their 2nd match was a train wreck though.
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