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Laker7 Star Player
Joined: 24 Feb 2003 Posts: 6393 Location: Past left field
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Mr. LakeShow wrote: | sean2023 wrote: | It's no coincidence the Lakers have lost the two games Lamar Odom has played the most passively in. |
Is it time to admit Odom can't stay agressive with Kobe on the floor? it's really getting annoying to see Odom have these games he should already know what to do out there. its pretty frustrating. |
For whatever reason, LO doesn't appear to have the mental make up to be a #2 guys on a team. When Kobe is out, LO plays close to an all star game. When Kobe is in the game, he becomes the 3rd or 4th best player. Same thing when he was with the Clips and it was clear Brand was #1. As soon as he went to Miami where he was the man, he was agressive, assertive and played at a much higher level.
I know many posters like Odom but I am still not sold he is the right guy for this team. I thought with Radman coming in to do a lot of scoring, LO would settle into a rebounding and distributing mode and the team would be OK. But with Radman hurt / not shooting well, it has not turned out that way.
L7 _________________ Keep winning! |
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Sage_10 Star Player
Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 6668
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:12 am Post subject: |
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I don't know what it is about those damn jailblazers that always makes it difficult for the Lakers. But I had anticipated this loss, I just wish I was wrong. _________________ "You Must Be Willing To Give Up That Which Can Be Lost In Order To Gain That Which Cannot Be Lost." - FORTUNE COOKIE |
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angel Franchise Player
Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 14226 Location: city of angels
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:24 am Post subject: |
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Thanks DB!
Considering how Randolph also torched Elton Brand recently, it seems he has elevated his level of play lately. It would have been good to have Kwame back from his injury to help guard him and to backup at center. The need was especially felt on the second of a back-to-back. _________________ "Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that." ~~Martin Luther King Jr.~~ |
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J.C. Smith Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 12665
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Honestly, it really seems as if Phil has tanked it in both of our losses this season. Absolutely horrible lineups, and both times he refused to call a time out and make substitutions. Instead he just let it keep going, and going, and going. We need Tex sitting behind him to wake him out of his slumber and force him to call a timeout. |
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limchrc Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 11477
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: |
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Hope we can get the W on our next game. |
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targetman Star Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 5503
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Sage_10 wrote: | I don't know what it is about those damn jailblazers that always makes it difficult for the Lakers. But I had anticipated this loss, I just wish I was wrong. |
Me too. Especially when you consider that Jackson's win percentage against this team is close to .500. Doesn't matter who is coaching their team, on their roster, or who is on ours, Phil is the only constant that I can see. _________________ Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst. |
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Texas_Pete Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 12822 Location: Somewhere watching a Laker game
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Great recap DB as usual. My questions are about LO. I'm not a big fan about him scoring a lot of points. Was he in foul trouble? Was he not getting calls or missing a few shots making him sulk? As much as we need everyone contributing, LO must step up and stay up for us. |
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hoopschick29 Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jul 2004 Posts: 12898 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:48 am Post subject: |
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DB, you're the man!!!
Kobe pushed that attack mode button for the first time this season and it worked.
Unfortunately, he had to do it in the 3rd quarter because the game was starting get away. If they could've kept close until the 4th quarter without Kobe pressing, he could've taken over then and possibly won the game. But he had to blow his load early just to keep them in it.
They're gonna have to just keep pressing Lamar to stay aggressive. Both he and Kobe had 6 TOs a piece, but LO just could not get himself going. I think it was combination of the TOs and his cage being a little rattled by Zach Randolph's scoring binge. Kobe's been staying as benign as he can while he recovers, but we saw it last night. The cuts are sharper, the moves are quicker. He's getter there fast, and Lamar needs to take advantage of this time and really establish himself with Kobe on the floor. _________________ So glad we gave you your flowers while you were here, Kobe. |
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karlmalonefan Star Player
Joined: 06 Jul 2004 Posts: 2608 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: |
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So does anyone still think that Sasha, Shammond, Mo and McKie are better than Jalen Rose and Kareem Rush? I wish we would stop filling up our roster by culling the D-League and signing retreads like McKie and Vlade Divac and start saving some roster space for players who become available that are still young and can actually play basketball. I wish they would cut some of the dead weight off this team. I don't really mind Mo, but the rest have got to go! _________________ Welcome to OverreactionGround.net, where a single possession can make you the savior of mankind or a total moron. -Ozendorph |
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Mr. EiGhTy-OnE Star Player
Joined: 03 Nov 2004 Posts: 8272 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Phil ruined my night, his arrogance will be the downfall of this team. That lineup that started the 4th Qtr went scoreless for 3 plus minutes. "that won't get it done" did any see phil after the game? most of the players had already went back to the locker room and he was still sitting there, looking around blankly.(like what just happened) probably waiting for someone to help him up...lol. are you suprised you lost phillip? keep playing lineups like you did to begin the 4th last night and to begin the 2nd qtr of the seattle loss and you will keep losing. I understand we always play badly at the rose garden and it was a back to back. i get all that. rest kobe,fine, im okay with that. but not kobe, lamar, and luke all at the same time when we are already down by 10 points in the 4th. then, when a timeout was called, he only brings in Shammond. WTF?
we can't always say well it was a back to back, NO EXCUSE! _________________ "When (Kobe) gets you on life support, he won't give you mouth to mouth. HE PULLS THE PLUG." -stu |
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prisma8slg Star Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2005 Posts: 4664 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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thanks DB. glad to see that Kobe is getting into rhthym more and this new consistent Luke. I didn't expect Bynum to put up the same numbers that he did the night before, but to go from 20pts to 1pt is disappointing. _________________ "I define success by championships, by winning..." Kobe Bryant
"I've seen it all. Sasha dunked on somebody," Kobe Bryant said. "I'm ready to retire now." |
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BigEvil Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 1755 Location: Whittier
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
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I will state what I did in another post.
I think Phil was trying to teach the team a lesson. You CAN'T just have Kobe and Luke be your only scorers for an entire quarter. That's completely unacceptible.
While I feel he kept them out too long, I don't knock Phil for not starting them in the 4th. The other guys had to be challenged to get it together. As it was, there was no way L.A. was gonna' win without some more contributions from other players. |
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And 1 Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 2586
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: Re: LAKERS -at- BLAZERS - 11/8 - Thoughts and :-(( ratings |
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DancingBarry wrote: |
<snipped>
Odom -- -- He got the assignment of trying to defend Randolph. Zach dropped 36 and 10. 'Nuff said about that. The Lakers really missed LO on the offensive end. The team was suffering from having to live off Luke and Kobe for way too long. Two quarters without anyone else scoring? LO has got to assert himself more. He finished with 11 points (lucky to get to double digits), he shot 5-9 (0-3 from three, 1-2 from the line). He had 5 boards, 3 assists and 6 turnovers. If the three isn't dropping, it would have been nice to see him manufacture a few more points at the line with some aggressiveness. He started out decently, then faded. He hit a jumphook in the middle of the lane. He attacked down the left side, turning the corner for an easy layup. He attacked to his right, slammed on the breaks and finished with his left. He knocked down an open 20-footer. He drew FTs in the lane and made one. He threw the ball away with a behind the back pass. That was the first half. I've only got a couple second half notes: He was reluctant to take a perimeter jumper, decided to attack and traveled. He tossed up a wild prayer and it banked in when the game was all but over. "Great competitors admit when they get beat," Odom said in the Times. "Tonight they beat us. If the game was five quarters, they probably would still win." |
Interesting quote from Lamar as it pertains to "competition." Interesting because I saw very little of it from him last night.
Going a little bit deeper into Lamar's game last night, I noticed that he checked into the 4th quarter with a little over 7-1/2 minutes remaining with the Lakers down by 8 points, I think.
Kobe didn't check in for another two minutes.
During this time span, Odom manages only two shot attempts (making one with the game already out of reach). This is despite being guarded by one of the worst defenders (Zach Randolph) in the league.
I thought Phil Jackson had a little "talk" with Lamar after the Sonic game. |
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la45 Starting Rotation
Joined: 11 Sep 2006 Posts: 783
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:31 am Post subject: |
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The 2nd unit without Kobe and Odom have no one that can create. I thought Farmar would be ready for this role, but it seems like he's not there yet.
While I did not disagree about sitting Kobe, I thought they should have brought back Bynum to start the 4th, at least now you have someone to run the offense through. Also, he needs to start resting Odom a bit earlier, so that when Kobe sits, Odom is ready to start the 4th.
Basically, when Kobe sits, then you gotta have Bynum and Odom in there. Those two did a great job of running our offense in the opener. |
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Freakout Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 11796 Location: WV
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: |
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I couldn't understand why Phil refused to go BIG in the 4th quarter. We were getting killed on the boards and Randolph was killing us inside. Sure we had foul trouble but at that point we were going to lose anyway. I wanted to see Kobe, Luke, Odom, Ronny, and Bynum out there. Portlands guards wasn't really killing us with penetration.
Also I don't think Luke really had a good night despite his numbers. He missed a handful of point blank layup attemps that he should have converted. |
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la45 Starting Rotation
Joined: 11 Sep 2006 Posts: 783
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | I don't think the Lakers need to make changes with their starters. The D is fine when Bynum is anchoring and good rotations (requires energy and communication)
What needs to change are the guys coming in at backup C IMO. Cook is not cutting it. Playing Cook at 5 is really asking for trouble, defensively. I have noticed in both losses that the biggest weakness defensively is when Cook is at C. Even Turiaf is a bit undersized when matched up with bigger C's.
By next week - this should be our second unit.
Kwame
Turiaf/Cook
Radmanovic
Evans
Farmar
I think there will be much better 2nd unit D when that lineup is played. More size and athleticism. Kwame + Turiaf is a good interior D.
Hopefully moving forward:
Bynum/Kwame
Odom/Turiaf
Walton/Radmanovic
Kobe/Evans
Parker/Farmar
11: Cook
12: Vujacic/Williams |
Ditto. In both games, that lineup with Cook at center allowed the opponents to jump to a lead and effectively lost the game. Ironically, he finally learned his lesson in the 4th quarter, but since Turiaf is a guy that lives off others creating, he's not as effective without Kobe or Odom in there. |
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jbjb Star Player
Joined: 11 Apr 2001 Posts: 5401
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Maybe Phil had a bad game, but chances are he had good reasons for his decisions that will benefit the team in the long run. And one of the reasons Phil is the most successful coach in the NBA is that he doesn't lose sight of the big picture.
Jump on Lamar if you want, but it's going to take a few more games for him to get into good enough shape to maintain his aggressiveness game to game -- especially on the second night of back to backs. Add into that the emphasis on getting Kobe re-integrated into the team, and the tough defensive assignment on Randolph (that would have gone to Kwame), and you have a big load to shoulder after a traumatic summer away from the game. Remember Lamar's performance post ASG through the playoffs, and realize he's going to playing above that level before too long. It may take a few more weeks.
So what if the game sucked. Rather than let a loss ruin your existence, and turning on the coach and players who you should be supporting, get a life. The Lakers are playing .600+ ball with their two best big men out since the start of the season with injuries, and their super star less that 100%. trying recover his game while getting used to a bunch of new team mates. Things may even get a little worse as players come back and Phil juggles with lineups looking for the right combinations that will take us to and deep into the playoffs. Sit back relax and enjoy the show, savor the wins, second guess the coach all you want, but don't just rip into and give up on players because you can't stomach a loss or two. And cease expostulating through your posterior appendages.
You don't have to win every battle to win a war. |
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And 1 Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 2586
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: |
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jbjb wrote: |
<snipped>
Jump on Lamar if you want, but it's going to take a few more games for him to get into good enough shape to maintain his aggressiveness game to game -- especially on the second night of back to backs. Add into that the emphasis on getting Kobe re-integrated into the team, and the tough defensive assignment on Randolph (that would have gone to Kwame), and you have a big load to shoulder after a traumatic summer away from the game. Remember Lamar's performance post ASG through the playoffs, and realize he's going to playing above that level before too long. It may take a few more weeks. |
A couple of issues:
1) Though you're quick to point to Lamar's post All Star performances of last season, you seem to dismiss the fact that the type of game we saw from him last night is typical of his career.
Why are you so quick to reach for the "conditioning card" as opposed to just saying that Lamar played like Lamar last night?
2) It's true that Odom had to pull the back-to-back roadie last night. But I gotta tell ya, offensively-speaking, he could not have been matched up against a weaker defensive opponent in Zach Randolph (and whatever that other CBA player was).
3) You brought up the issue of his "traumatic summer." Do you plan on bringing that up every time Odom plays a bad game? |
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Addicus Star Player
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 9642 Location: Dave's Pimp Palace
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: |
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DancingBarry wrote: | dino wrote: | and how do you justify sitting walton if you decide to move odom to the 3 and keep bynum at center seeing as luke's the most consistent scoring threat after kobe? |
You've got to mix and match things a bit according to the match up. I remember Luke and Farmar looking pretty good as a bench unit in several games. That wouldn't hurt if you tightened up a certain defensive issue against a specific team (go big if needed for Magliore/Randolph). Would have been nice for Phil to have that option in this game, for sure. |
I really feel as if tonight proved why we shouldn't be having the trade Kwame/Mihm threads.
It is vital to be able to match up against certain line-ups and those 2 are the guys we need against Portland. Remember they didn't play with Roy or Prizbilla so they were missing some speed, savvy and size. _________________ Stop crying and start doing.
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/addicusbrown |
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CorkyTomjanovich Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2004 Posts: 3486
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: |
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I know exactly what Phil is doing, and I don't really like it. He is using regular season games to figure out his rotation. Either that or he is pulling a Doc Rivers and playing everyone with no rhyme or reason.
He should settle on a 8-9 man rotation, and then when someone is not producing for a while, move someone else up.
Odom does not belong at the 4. No way, no how, he can't guard them, and he does a far better job on 3's.
The opening is there for Farmar, but he is going to have to snatch it. |
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la45 Starting Rotation
Joined: 11 Sep 2006 Posts: 783
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Well, we sure didn't win the war last year, did it? If playoffs success is what Phil is building for, then shouldn't we have gotten past the first round? Otherwise, what's the point of "losing to teach a lesson?" And sorry, but coming close doesn't count, that is the worse reasoning that one could come up with. That's like being happy that you came in second, or, we were able to come close against a world championship team. It's a loser's excuse.
Throughout history, the theme seems to be, if you have homecourt, you have much more of a chance to advance than you don't. |
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Klone_dd Star Player
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 7330
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: |
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BigEvil wrote: | I will state what I did in another post.
I think Phil was trying to teach the team a lesson. You CAN'T just have Kobe and Luke be your only scorers for an entire quarter. That's completely unacceptible.
While I feel he kept them out too long, I don't knock Phil for not starting them in the 4th. The other guys had to be challenged to get it together. As it was, there was no way L.A. was gonna' win without some more contributions from other players. |
I second this. It's hard to win any game in which only two guys score for basically a whole half. Someone else needed to step up, no one did. Better the guys realize that they've got to contribute rather than letting them relax and watch Kobe put on the cape and save the day.
Lamar got beat, up and down, inside and out. As a competitor, he has to go right back at his man on the other end. Of his last 28 shots, he's put up 14 3-ptrs. To me that is not being aggressive, that is settling.
Glad Luke showed up with another consistently good effort. It's the sign of a good pro and something the two "yutes" need to grow into.
Finally, there must be something about P-land. What is it? The water? The rain? |
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Addicus Star Player
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 9642 Location: Dave's Pimp Palace
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: |
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And 1 wrote: | jbjb wrote: |
<snipped>
Jump on Lamar if you want, but it's going to take a few more games for him to get into good enough shape to maintain his aggressiveness game to game -- especially on the second night of back to backs. Add into that the emphasis on getting Kobe re-integrated into the team, and the tough defensive assignment on Randolph (that would have gone to Kwame), and you have a big load to shoulder after a traumatic summer away from the game. Remember Lamar's performance post ASG through the playoffs, and realize he's going to playing above that level before too long. It may take a few more weeks. |
A couple of issues:
1) Though you're quick to point to Lamar's post All Star performances of last season, you seem to dismiss the fact that the type of game we saw from him last night is typical of his career.
Why are you so quick to reach for the "conditioning card" as opposed to just saying that Lamar played like Lamar last night?
2) It's true that Odom had to pull the back-to-back roadie last night. But I gotta tell ya, offensively-speaking, he could not have been matched up against a weaker defensive opponent in Zach Randolph (and whatever that other CBA player was).
3) You brought up the issue of his "traumatic summer." Do you plan on bringing that up every time Odom plays a bad game? |
I think it came down to us playing the mismatches offensively and with Bynum in foul trouble and struggling those were Kobe vs whoever and Luke on their 3's.
I would have liked to see Lamar attack Randolph in the post more, but Zack is the type of guy that gives him problems down there because he is wide and strong. He and Brand make it hard on Lamar. He hasn't seemed to look to into the last 2 games mentally. That's sad because we really need him to play with passion to dominate the way we can. _________________ Stop crying and start doing.
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/addicusbrown |
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la45 Starting Rotation
Joined: 11 Sep 2006 Posts: 783
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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BTW, Phil's reasoning for that lineup in the 4th was a lot simpler than people think, and certainly, no ulterior long term motive. The reason is this: since Odom had just finished the quarter, and doesn't seem to be doing much anyway, extending him for the first few minutes of the 4th to buy time for Kobe is pointless. He was hoping that the 2nd unit could make a run, so that when he put Kobe, Odom and Bynum back in, they could finish off the game, being well-rested, and often times, they do(trust me, if the game is close enough(4-6 points), it's very dangerous when the other team's players are more fresh.) |
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And 1 Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 2586
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: |
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psydesho wrote: | And 1 wrote: | jbjb wrote: |
<snipped>
Jump on Lamar if you want, but it's going to take a few more games for him to get into good enough shape to maintain his aggressiveness game to game -- especially on the second night of back to backs. Add into that the emphasis on getting Kobe re-integrated into the team, and the tough defensive assignment on Randolph (that would have gone to Kwame), and you have a big load to shoulder after a traumatic summer away from the game. Remember Lamar's performance post ASG through the playoffs, and realize he's going to playing above that level before too long. It may take a few more weeks. |
A couple of issues:
1) Though you're quick to point to Lamar's post All Star performances of last season, you seem to dismiss the fact that the type of game we saw from him last night is typical of his career.
Why are you so quick to reach for the "conditioning card" as opposed to just saying that Lamar played like Lamar last night?
2) It's true that Odom had to pull the back-to-back roadie last night. But I gotta tell ya, offensively-speaking, he could not have been matched up against a weaker defensive opponent in Zach Randolph (and whatever that other CBA player was).
3) You brought up the issue of his "traumatic summer." Do you plan on bringing that up every time Odom plays a bad game? |
I think it came down to us playing the mismatches offensively and with Bynum in foul trouble and struggling those were Kobe vs whoever and Luke on their 3's.
I would have liked to see Lamar attack Randolph in the post more, but Zack is the type of guy that gives him problems down there because he is wide and strong. He and Brand make it hard on Lamar. He hasn't seemed to look to into the last 2 games mentally. That's sad because we really need him to play with passion to dominate the way we can. |
OK, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.
I think that Randolph is just the type of defender that LO should carve up like a ButterBall turkey. As opposed to KG or Chris Wilcox, Randolph is fat, slow, non-athletic, and unmotivated (on the defensive end). Odom should have been taking him to the hole every single time.
Yet, he's floating around the 3-pt line. |
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