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jjangx27
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 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | | clutchkobe wrote: | | i think we should call the kidd deal dead and lets move on to somethings that might happen.....like anyday they are going to blow up the sacramento kings and all their players are available. |
The only players on the Kings that would be worth pursuing will be the ones that they won't be trading. |
who won't they be trading? wouldn't all of em be on the table? except maybe kevin martin cuz he's young. but i think they'd be willing to do deal artest, bibby, miller, etc. |
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Reverend
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| emplay wrote: | why kidd
why billups
just get lebron
ah - why didn't we think of this before |
Do you think a package centered around Kwame and Smush could get it done? I don't think we should offer Farmar after all Lebron is getting older and he hates it in Cleveland anyway. Do it Mitch!  |
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jjangx27 wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | clutchkobe wrote: | | i think we should call the kidd deal dead and lets move on to somethings that might happen.....like anyday they are going to blow up the sacramento kings and all their players are available. |
The only players on the Kings that would be worth pursuing will be the ones that they won't be trading. |
who won't they be trading? wouldn't all of em be on the table? except maybe kevin martin cuz he's young. but i think they'd be willing to do deal artest, bibby, miller, etc. |
Like I said... |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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(phone ringing)
Mitch: Hi Mr. West, it's your old friend Mitch here with Joe and Gavin Maloof on the line.
Maloofs: Hi Jerry.
J. West: Where's this going guys?
Mitch: We have a deal for you....
L.A. Lakers Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm
Luke Walton
Incoming
Ron Artest
Kenny Thomas
Sacramento Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Ron Artest
Kenny Thomas
Kevin Martin
Incoming
Luke Walton
Pau Gasol
Memphis Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Pau Gasol
Incoming
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm
Kevin Martin |
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Drugs are bad mmmkay? |
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GameCock-MD
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | (phone ringing)
Mitch: Hi Mr. West, it's your old friend Mitch here with Joe and Gavin Maloof on the line.
Maloofs: Hi Jerry.
J. West: Where's this going guys?
Mitch: We have a deal for you....
L.A. Lakers Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm
Luke Walton
Incoming
Ron Artest
Kenny Thomas
Sacramento Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Ron Artest
Kenny Thomas
Kevin Martin
Incoming
Luke Walton
Pau Gasol
Memphis Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Pau Gasol
Incoming
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm
Kevin Martin |
IF Kwame and Mihm weren't injured, that would have a chance of working...
If they were putting up decent numbers, it might work.
But they are injured and neither are putting up any numbers...
And Kevin martin plays the same position as Rudy Gay.
Not happening.
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| I know. I've come to the conclusion that we are stuck with all of our players. Any player we want out of here in a trade is for a reason. And that reason probably means that no other team wants them for the same reason. So, all we can do is hope that the team continues to gel, get past this current losing streak and get far into the playoffs as an underdog. If KG or Billups or whoever wants to come here in the offseason, for below the market value, we'll just be lucky. |
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The deal is on the table RIGHT NOW from the Lakeshow... New Jersey is flushing out their other alternatives (Memphis, Clippers, etc...)... The deal includes Kwame, McKie, Mihm (Smush or Farmar... fluctuating) and a draft pick for Kidd and another player (Nochbar or Robinson)... Obviously, putting together any trade in the NBA is challenging, specifically when a former All Star is involved, but the deal is MUCH closer than is reported... Please note, Phil is the catalyst... |
Kwame Brown, Aaron McKie, Chris Mihm, Smush Parker and a draft pick? That's the deal I'd push. New Jersey already has Marcus Williams as their future at point guard. They get interior defense against power forwards in Kwame Brown . . . Nets just tank this year for a quality big man. Vince Carter is all but gone, one foot out the door. Lebron is the Nets prize.
Lakers
PG Jason Kidd / Jordan Farmar
SG Kobe Bryant / Maurice Evans
SF Luke Walton / Vladimir Radmanovic
PF Lamar Odom / Brian Cook
C Andrew Bynum / Ronny Turiaf
Nets
PG Marcus Williams / Smush Parker
SG Vince Carter / Eddie House
SF Richard Jefferson / Antoine Wright
PF Nenad Kristic / Josh Boone
C Kwame Brown / Jason Collins
I like the trade for both teams. Lakers especially. Kidd solidifies the point guard position, with Farmar leading the second team. Three triple double threats every night in Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant and Lamar Odom. Maybe a fourth in Andrew Bynum. Just hope that our other big men, Brian Cook, Ronny Turiaf and Vladimir Radmanovic can stay healthy. |
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emplay
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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you may lilke it but the nets don't
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fansincemagic
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: |
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I'll be real, that deal does make sense for all parties, maybe not perfect, but it is realistic.
For Memphis, I really don't believe the Bulls will deal Deng/Thomas, Gordon/Nocioni, or any of thoes combos. This package gives them a dirt cheap young shooter in Martin, and a solid post center for a year which fits this team very well. They are starving for a solid center, and whichever star big they draft (Oden, Durant, Noah, Wright) would make a solid combo inside. They could rid themselves of Gasol's deal and be in good shape to resign Martin long term and even resign Mihm cheap. Martin at SG and Gay at SF would be your future, but Miller would split 35 mpg between the two positions for now.
For Sacto, you give Bibby a solid bigman inside and add a good passer to a team known for moving the ball around. You also rid yourself of the deal Thomas has, and can still get by at SG with Salmons/Garcia.
For LA, Walton and Artest are polar opposites. Walton is a great fit in the triangle and improving other areas of his game. Artest is a greater talent and risk. We all know his past, and the lack of IQ for the triangle, but he does play lockdown defense and would be a good complement to Odom plus take pressure off of Kobe. I don't think he'd be as bad of a fit in the offense has he sounds, he'd just have to learn to take only open jumpers and not spend 10 seconds trying to back his man down. This does sound nearly impossible, but if anyone can do it...Phil can. The Thomas deal is big, and he does seem like an older version of Turiaf in terms of talent. You'd be better off taking on the expiring Williamson deal, and I'd deal a future 1st to pull that off. |
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:00 am Post subject: |
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From a poster at RealGM:
Hey. I'm new here and I float around the general board trying to make mischief.
Anyways, while its fun and games to really talk about a trade between the Nets and Lakers, I think the OP is pulling your chain. I don't want to claim to be an insider because I'm not and if I were I wouldn't post information that shouldn't be released yet, but:
1. Lakers made an offer for Kidd less than a month ago. It was built around Kwame Brown and offered up smush, but not farmar. The deal was rejected.
2. Miami heat offered up a trade built around Jason Williams, picks and simien + fillers. It was rejected.
3. The Cavs offered up a trade built eric snow and varejo (sp) + picks and fillers?? and it was rejected.
Those are the only three teams with a legitimate deals proposed to New Jersey. Jersey didn't want any of those deals. Just flat out said no. They said they would like to keep kidd and as far as I know, he's off the trading block.
There are some rumors, none that are from sources I would trust mind you, that suggest Kidd is back on the trading block and a move is imminent (within 2 weeks). It wouldn't surprise me. Perhaps the deals for Kidd will get better nearer to the trade deadline. Even if that were true, I don't think LA is the best offer on the table now. Certainly they could sweeten the pot by adding in farmar instead of smush or perhaps New Jersey breaks and decide they really need Kwame. Its not likely. What is likely is that New Jersey stands pat and tries to remain competitive in an East that is wide open. The only positive I've heard is that Kidd has said he specifically would like to go to LA if he is traded. He has not demanded a trade or pushed for a trade to LA though. It was only a request and not a demand. Beyond that, it looks slim. Obviously LA wants Kidd, but it takes two to tango.
The message here is just to be careful and be skeptical of so called insiders. A real insider isn't going to offer information weeks before something happens. Just keep that in mind. If it happens, it happens. If the guy is really an insider, great. Just keep everything in perspective and look at the situation as a whole so you don't get disappointed.
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I like the trade for both teams. Lakers especially. Kidd solidifies the point guard position, with Farmar leading the second team. Three triple double threats every night in Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant and Lamar Odom. Maybe a fourth in Andrew Bynum. Just hope that our other big men, Brian Cook, Ronny Turiaf and Vladimir Radmanovic can stay healthy. |
Of course you would! 
But that trade doesn't help the Nets at all. The Nets don't need a C when they have Nenad and they don't need Smush because Smush as a PG outside of the triangle is such a question mark that it ain't even funny. And triple doubles in the triangle are as rare as it gets, no matter who's brought in to play within it.
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RG73
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | And triple doubles in the triangle are as rare as it gets, no matter who's brought in to play within it. |
And yet Kobe has 13 career tri-dubs; Pippen had 20; Jordan had 20-something; Wilt collected many of his while playing in the tri under Hannum in Philly and later for the Lakers.
That Kidd has 3 times more triple doubles than those guys playing outside of the triangle has nothing to do with the triangle and everything to do with Kidd being a better rebounder than Kobe, Pippen, or Jordan, and a better passer than any of them. Kind of like Kobe and Jordan score 2x-3x more than Kidd, or Pippen played defense 2x better; Kidd's strength (or one of them) is getting the defensive board, pushing the ball in transition and making the perfect pass. This is perfectly possible in the triangle (even according to Winter, so we'll take his word over yours). |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | And triple doubles in the triangle are as rare as it gets, no matter who's brought in to play within it. |
And yet Kobe has 13 career tri-dubs; Pippen had 20; Jordan had 20-something; Wilt collected many of his while playing in the tri under Hannum in Philly and later for the Lakers.
That Kidd has 3 times more triple doubles than those guys playing outside of the triangle has nothing to do with the triangle and everything to do with Kidd being a better rebounder than Kobe, Pippen, or Jordan, and a better passer than any of them. Kind of like Kobe and Jordan score 2x-3x more than Kidd, or Pippen played defense 2x better; Kidd's strength (or one of them) is getting the defensive board, pushing the ball in transition and making the perfect pass. This is perfectly possible in the triangle (even according to Winter, so we'll take his word over yours). |
I don't think you quite understand what the term "rare" means:
- In 480 games in the triangle, Kobe has 13 tri-dubs. That qualifies as rare.
- In 585 games in the triangle, MJ had 20-something tri dubs. That qualifies as rare.
- In 681 games in the triangle, Pip had 20 tri-dubs. That qualifies as rare.
For some odd reason you're not equating the MAIN component to Kidd's ability to get a tri-dub = assists. With Odom, Kobe, and Luke as initiators, Kidd won't have the chance to get 10+ dimes in the triangle like he does in traditional systems. Why you refuse or simply just don't see this is baffling to say the least.
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ocho
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: |
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^^i doubt lamar or kobe would be initiating if we had kidd. he would be the main playmaker obviously. i agree with your comments about his shaky J but kidd can also cut the defense thru penetration a lot better than smush can. not to mention he is a far superior rebounder and defender.
plus kidd is shooting .368 from 3pt this year. smush is shooting .383. is it THAT much of a difference?
kidd also brings veteran leadership to a young team that desperately needs it.
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ^^i doubt lamar or kobe would be initiating if we had kidd. he would be the main playmaker obviously |
The triangle doesn't change for the player...the player changes for the triangle. When Payton came in the triangle didn't change. Kidd would be no different. The triangle will be run the same way, the only difference is, it gains a player that can initiate as well. Odom, Luke, and Kobe - along with Kidd - would be the initiators so the number of assists would fluctuate between all 4 players. Some games Kobe will have more, some games Kidd would have more and some games Kidd would have more.
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RG73
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | I don't think you quite understand what the term "rare" means:
- In 480 games in the triangle, Kobe has 13 tri-dubs. That qualifies as rare.
- In 585 games in the triangle, MJ had 20-something tri dubs. That qualifies as rare.
- In 681 games in the triangle, Pip had 20 tri-dubs. That qualifies as rare. |
In 911 games Kidd has 82--that still isn't common. So yes, I do understand rare. Kidd does tri-dub at about 3x the rate of Kobe, but he still does it about 6 times a season on average to about 2 times per season on average for Kobe. It isn't a common event either way.
| Quote: | | For some odd reason you're not equating the MAIN component to Kidd's ability to get a tri-dub = assists. With Odom, Kobe, and Luke as initiators, Kidd won't have the chance to get 10+ dimes in the triangle like he does in traditional systems. Why you refuse or simply just don't see this is baffling to say the least. |
Why you assume Odom, Kobe and Luke would initiate with Kidd on the team is truly the baffling thing. Kobe would be on the wing exclusively with Kidd on the team (as Tex has been wanting for years, as has Kobe); so then you're telling me the coaching staff would want Luke and Odom to initiate instead of Kidd? Because they have better court awareness, passing skills, court vision, basketball IQ, handles, etc, right?
Also you continue to maintain this absurd argument that you cannot have high assist numbers in the triangle despite the fact that I have pointed out several instances to the contrary (e.g. Wilt leading the league in assists at 8.6 in the tri, West averaging 9+ playing some triangle during hte early 70s, Oscar Robertson averaging 8+ playing tri in 71, Pippen averaging 7 in 91). You continue to refuse to acknowledge that you can fast break and play the triangle (despite this fact being articulated in no uncertain terms by both Phil and Tex). One simply needs to look at all the "almost" assists Kobe gets on this team (probably about 4-5 per game) to see how Kidd would do. Guys don't blow shots off of good passes from Kobe simply because they suck--they blow them also because Kobe doesn't quite feed them at the perfect time. Kidd's timing and decision making is better than Kobe's--a few tenths of a second in the timing of a pass can make the difference between a make and a miss. Even without fast breaks Kidd could get 7 or 8 assists just playing Kobe's role by simply making a couple better passes per game.
You also ignore that Kobe did get 4 or 5 tri-dubs in one month twice in his career. Kobe can do that when he puts his mind to it even within the triangle. So how is it entirely possible to get multiple tri-dubs in one month for somone within the tri if that is their roll, but as soon as LB claims it isn't possible, all of the previous history of the NBA ceases to exist? |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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This is the only sentence that stood out:
| Quote: | | Why you assume Odom, Kobe and Luke would initiate with Kidd on the team is truly the baffling thing. |
Because it's the TRIANGLE OFFENSE. The offense is built around ball movement, big men, and shooters, not a Ball-dominating PG that commands the tempo and distribution. It never has and it never will.
You seem to "want" to make it like that but it will never be like that just because Kidd would be implemented in it. It's pipe to think Kidd would be able to continue his rate of tri-dubs in an offense such as the triangle that has so many initiators. That's what makes the triangle a hard offense to scout, because of the many options and wrinkles in it.
You also keep bringing up Wilt, O and Logo as if the game is THE SAME now as it was then? What makes you think that? That's not not even the case. Also, Pip averaged 7 a game with just him and MJ as initiators, now there's Luke, Odom, and Kobe...add Kidd and that stretches the assists total around even more.
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| Quote: | Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
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lamarvelousodom
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| if the bulls limited the number of initiators to two, why cant the lakers? i agree getting ten dimes is real tough in the triangle, but initiating duties spread amongst four players aint gonna happen |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| lamarvelousodom wrote: | | if the bulls limited the number of initiators to two, why cant the lakers? i agree getting ten dimes is real tough in the triangle, but initiating duties spread amongst four players aint gonna happen |
The Bulls didn't have a choice but to limit it to 2 players.
And IF Kidd were to come in, Luke's assists would take a hit more than Kobe or Odom, so it would be more so spread out around 3...but still, that doesn't bode well for Kidd's triple doubles, not at all.
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| jminges wrote: | | The only positive I've heard is that Kidd has said he specifically would like to go to LA if he is traded. He has not demanded a trade or pushed for a trade to LA though. It was only a request and not a demand. Beyond that, it looks slim. Obviously LA wants Kidd, but it takes two to tango. |
Just wanted to highlight for those that didn't read all of what the RealGM poster wrote. |
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LaxT
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| emplay wrote: | | you may lilke it but the nets don't |
What exactly is NJ expecting anyway? Philly got Miller and two picks for AI and I think Kidd is worth a bit less than AI in the market. So perhaps we are talking about a package equivalent to Miller+ a pick. If the post from realgm has credit, teams aren't even offering that.
| Quote: |
1. Lakers made an offer for Kidd less than a month ago. It was built around Kwame Brown and offered up smush, but not farmar. The deal was rejected.
2. Miami heat offered up a trade built around Jason Williams, picks and simien + fillers. It was rejected.
3. The Cavs offered up a trade built eric snow and varejo (sp) + picks and fillers?? and it was rejected.
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Since the deadline is still a few weeks away, it's understandable that teams are making low-ball offers. But what exactly is NJ expecting? Will any team meet that expectation? Kidd's trade value won't raise as he ages so wait till the summer doesn't help.
I concede the Nets can keep him since he is still very productive. Even without Carter, they can remain competetive. Well, in the atlantic division anyway. So let Kidd play out his contract may not be a bad idea. But let's say they are thinking about rebuiding, what is the market value for Kidd? |
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emplay
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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The nets are expecting to keep kidd for at least another year
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Runway8
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| emplay wrote: | | The nets are expecting to keep kidd for at least another year |
That's interesting. If I was owner and I see a player that's not in my future plans. I'd try to move him asap, espcially if he's old. If they don't like the trade offers, do they think the offers will be better with another year of depreciation? |
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Kidd will still be able to play at the end of the season.
Desperation only drops the price. |
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