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LuxuryBrown
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 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | So the question becomes, could Kidd average 8-9 assists per game in the triangle?
Well, Pippen averaged 7 per game one year in the triangle, so I would think Kidd could average at least that, and probably more |
You just showed why he wouldn't average about 7+...he's not playing the Point Forward like Pip was, which is like playing PG in a sense. With Luke, Odom, and Kobe also initiating, Kidd wouldn't see 7+ dimes. 5? Maybe. 7+? No.
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Why not ride this season out, then trade Kwame + filler + a first round pick for Billups? Unless a miracle trade for Kidd happens, we won't get any better this season. |
Ventura, as much as I am a Billups fan and like your persistance of keeping assets available for this S&T: in order for this to happen a lot of factors have to play in our favor (Chauncey wanting to go to Lakers as his preferred destination, Detroit going into almost "re-building mode", etc.).
I personally consider Billups in the same cathegory as KG dreams... |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: |
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LuxuryBrown wrote:
| Quote: | Quote:
| Quote: | So the question becomes, could Kidd average 8-9 assists per game in the triangle?
Well, Pippen averaged 7 per game one year in the triangle, so I would think Kidd could average at least that, and probably more |
You just showed why he wouldn't average about 7+...he's not playing the Point Forward like Pip was, which is like playing PG in a sense. With Luke, Odom, and Kobe also initiating, Kidd wouldn't see 7+ dimes. 5? Maybe. 7+? No. |
I would have to agree, Kidd's apg would be cut to close to half. I would agree that Kidd's apg would diffinitely drop to the low 5's at best per game, especially considering he would be playing along side Odom, Kobe and Luke (when he get's back that is).
Pippen was the point forward on the Bulls, Odom is basically the point forward on the Lakers. Within the confines of the Triangle where a pure PG is certainly not needed Kidd's apg average would certainly drop off.
Kidd is an incredible playmaker but has never been a great shooter. So while yes he would be an definite asset simply on the basis of his talent and improved defense but I just don't see him making a huge difference offensively playing the triangle with this current roster.
And considering Smush's triangle experience to date, I don't see a really big uptick as far as execution on the offensive end for the remainder of the year.
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | LuxuryBrown wrote:
| Quote: | Quote:
| Quote: | So the question becomes, could Kidd average 8-9 assists per game in the triangle?
Well, Pippen averaged 7 per game one year in the triangle, so I would think Kidd could average at least that, and probably more |
You just showed why he wouldn't average about 7+...he's not playing the Point Forward like Pip was, which is like playing PG in a sense. With Luke, Odom, and Kobe also initiating, Kidd wouldn't see 7+ dimes. 5? Maybe. 7+? No. |
I would have to agree, Kidd's apg would be cut to close to half. I would agree that Kidd's apg would diffinitely drop to the low 5's at best per game, especially considering he would be playing along side Odom, Kobe and Luke (when he get's back that is).
Pippen was the point forward on the Bulls, Odom is basically the point forward on the Lakers. Within the confines of the Triangle where a pure PG is certainly not needed Kidd's apg average would certainly drop off.
Kidd is an incredible playmaker but has never been a great shooter. So while yes he would be an definite asset simply on the basis of his talent and improved defense but I just don't see him making a huge difference offensively playing the triangle with this current roster.
And considering Smush's triangle experience to date, I don't see a really big uptick as far as execution on the offensive end for the remainder of the year. |
 Great post, bro.
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TLT
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | LuxuryBrown wrote:
| Quote: | Quote:
| Quote: | So the question becomes, could Kidd average 8-9 assists per game in the triangle?
Well, Pippen averaged 7 per game one year in the triangle, so I would think Kidd could average at least that, and probably more |
You just showed why he wouldn't average about 7+...he's not playing the Point Forward like Pip was, which is like playing PG in a sense. With Luke, Odom, and Kobe also initiating, Kidd wouldn't see 7+ dimes. 5? Maybe. 7+? No. |
I would have to agree, Kidd's apg would be cut to close to half. I would agree that Kidd's apg would diffinitely drop to the low 5's at best per game, especially considering he would be playing along side Odom, Kobe and Luke (when he get's back that is).
Pippen was the point forward on the Bulls, Odom is basically the point forward on the Lakers. Within the confines of the Triangle where a pure PG is certainly not needed Kidd's apg average would certainly drop off.
Kidd is an incredible playmaker but has never been a great shooter. So while yes he would be an definite asset simply on the basis of his talent and improved defense but I just don't see him making a huge difference offensively playing the triangle with this current roster.
And considering Smush's triangle experience to date, I don't see a really big uptick as far as execution on the offensive end for the remainder of the year. |
My thinking is..Kidd would probably have more assists than usual, because he would be handling the ball and dishing to Kobe, Odom, Bynum, etc. Check out his stats over the years. You know what you're going to get with him each year. VERY consistant in every catagory. |
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TLT
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| golakersgo121 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Why not ride this season out, then trade Kwame + filler + a first round pick for Billups? Unless a miracle trade for Kidd happens, we won't get any better this season. |
Ventura, as much as I am a Billups fan and like your persistance of keeping assets available for this S&T: in order for this to happen a lot of factors have to play in our favor (Chauncey wanting to go to Lakers as his preferred destination, Detroit going into almost "re-building mode", etc.).
I personally consider Billups in the same cathegory as KG dreams... |
So...Let us dream. Kidd, Billups, KG....Kidd, Billups, KG..zzzzzzzz |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| TLT wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | LuxuryBrown wrote:
| Quote: | Quote:
| Quote: | So the question becomes, could Kidd average 8-9 assists per game in the triangle?
Well, Pippen averaged 7 per game one year in the triangle, so I would think Kidd could average at least that, and probably more |
You just showed why he wouldn't average about 7+...he's not playing the Point Forward like Pip was, which is like playing PG in a sense. With Luke, Odom, and Kobe also initiating, Kidd wouldn't see 7+ dimes. 5? Maybe. 7+? No. |
I would have to agree, Kidd's apg would be cut to close to half. I would agree that Kidd's apg would diffinitely drop to the low 5's at best per game, especially considering he would be playing along side Odom, Kobe and Luke (when he get's back that is).
Pippen was the point forward on the Bulls, Odom is basically the point forward on the Lakers. Within the confines of the Triangle where a pure PG is certainly not needed Kidd's apg average would certainly drop off.
Kidd is an incredible playmaker but has never been a great shooter. So while yes he would be an definite asset simply on the basis of his talent and improved defense but I just don't see him making a huge difference offensively playing the triangle with this current roster.
And considering Smush's triangle experience to date, I don't see a really big uptick as far as execution on the offensive end for the remainder of the year. |
My thinking is..Kidd would probably have more assists than usual, because he would be handling the ball and dishing to Kobe, Odom, Bynum, etc. Check out his stats over the years. You know what you're going to get with him each year. VERY consistant in every catagory. |
You're missing the whole point, bro. The system won't allow Kidd to maintain those numbers. The players adheres to the system, not the other way around. And you can't go by his stats over his career because his stats are non-triangle based.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Well, having Kidd would allow more transition opportunities....
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EdfromSimiValley
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: |
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I guess I'll make my once every 6 months post now.
Jason Kidd averages more rebounds than Kwame Brown 
Unless the Lakers make a move soon (within the next year or so for a big) the chances of Kobe winning are going to get less and less. Although I'm not fond of Kidd's shooting proficiency or lack thereof, at least he gives you a chance to win for the next 2-3 years. In my opinion you have to make the sacrifice now if you can, even if it means giving up Farmar.
At this point, given Smush's play, even Andre Miller would suffice because you know what you get and he would have something to play for. If you can land Miller without giving up Farmar, you do it in my opinion.
Despite the recent polls and articles, this team doesn't have what it takes to get to the Finals. Longshot, yes, everyone does, but in reality, do you believe it? The inconsistency will kill us. Unless Kwame is our savior, this team is still missing pieces. Even Miller/Hunter would suffice, if not Kidd somehow. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Quote: | So the question becomes, could Kidd average 8-9 assists per game in the triangle?
Well, Pippen averaged 7 per game one year in the triangle, so I would think Kidd could average at least that, and probably more |
You just showed why he wouldn't average about 7+...he's not playing the Point Forward like Pip was, which is like playing PG in a sense. |
He would be playing the Point Guard, which is exactly like playing PG. Kidd could average 5 assists a game on this team just in transition.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| golakersgo121 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Why not ride this season out, then trade Kwame + filler + a first round pick for Billups? Unless a miracle trade for Kidd happens, we won't get any better this season. |
Ventura, as much as I am a Billups fan and like your persistance of keeping assets available for this S&T: in order for this to happen a lot of factors have to play in our favor (Chauncey wanting to go to Lakers as his preferred destination, Detroit going into almost "re-building mode", etc.).
I personally consider Billups in the same cathegory as KG dreams... |
I think it is much more realistic than KG, since Billups will become a FA after this season. Detroit hasn't shown they like to pay to keep their players, but if they win the title this season, then I wouldn't be shocked to see them pony up and give Billups 10 mil per. If they don't, then I think he leaves.
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Quote: | So the question becomes, could Kidd average 8-9 assists per game in the triangle?
Well, Pippen averaged 7 per game one year in the triangle, so I would think Kidd could average at least that, and probably more |
You just showed why he wouldn't average about 7+...he's not playing the Point Forward like Pip was, which is like playing PG in a sense. |
He would be playing the Point Guard, which is exactly like playing PG. Kidd could average 5 assists a game on this team just in transition. |
All that's fine and dandy but he wouldn't average 7+ dimes. That's about as pipe as it gets. It's the Triangle Offense not Showtime.
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RG73
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Quote: | So the question becomes, could Kidd average 8-9 assists per game in the triangle?
Well, Pippen averaged 7 per game one year in the triangle, so I would think Kidd could average at least that, and probably more |
You just showed why he wouldn't average about 7+...he's not playing the Point Forward like Pip was, which is like playing PG in a sense. |
He would be playing the Point Guard, which is exactly like playing PG. Kidd could average 5 assists a game on this team just in transition. |
All that's fine and dandy but he wouldn't average 7+ dimes. That's about as pipe as it gets. It's the Triangle Offense not Showtime. |
Kobe and Lamar each routinely have 6-7 assist nights within the tri, no problem. One reason they don't get more is because they simply do not have the passing skills that Kidd possesses. As good as Kobe and Lamar are they don't always make the right pass at the right time to the right player even within the confines of the offense. So they turn it over or pass it to a guy out of rhythm or don't quite hit a cutter at the right moment. Kidd does, more often than not, make the right pass to the right guy at the right moment. So doing nothing more than stepping into the same role Kobe and Lamar share, he'd get 2 or 3 more assists than they average simply by making better passes. Within the offense. In fact, considering he'd be making those passes to Kobe and Lamar (who would be off the ball a lot more with Kidd on the team), I think he could average 8-9 assists in his sleep without having to break the offense.
Moreover, you say this isn't "Showtime", neglecting the very obvious--namely that Phil has repeatedly said this season he wants the team to get into transition offense when the opportunity is there. They didn't fastbreak back in the Shaq days because Shaq couldn't be bothered to run. Now they have the personnel to fastbreak except no capable guard (e.g. a rebounding guard who can push the ball in the open court and get easy baskets on the break). He'd be running fast breaks with Kobe and Odom on the wings. I agree with Ventura that he'd rack up a few assists every night just in the transition game. That is sheer absurdity to suggest that Phil would get a guard like Kidd and tell him to never push the ball.
I think his assists might even go up if he played for the Lakers.
You're also forgetting LB that Wilt averaged 7.8 and 8.6 assists per game the 2 seasons he ran the tri under Alex Hannum in the late 60s. Not to mention Jerry West averaged 7+ assists running some tri on the Lakers in the early 70s (9+ two seasons in a row in fact). Oscar Robertson averaged 8.2 assists per game running the triangle for the Bucks in 1971 with Kareem. So there is precedence for guys averaging a lot of assists using the triangle. You can fall back on the faster paced game excuse if you want, but teams are playing faster the last couple seasons, and the Lakers are playing a pretty fast clip themselves this season (because they do, contrary to what you maintain, try to push the ball and get into early offense). |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Quote: | So the question becomes, could Kidd average 8-9 assists per game in the triangle?
Well, Pippen averaged 7 per game one year in the triangle, so I would think Kidd could average at least that, and probably more |
You just showed why he wouldn't average about 7+...he's not playing the Point Forward like Pip was, which is like playing PG in a sense. |
He would be playing the Point Guard, which is exactly like playing PG. Kidd could average 5 assists a game on this team just in transition. |
All that's fine and dandy but he wouldn't average 7+ dimes. That's about as pipe as it gets. It's the Triangle Offense not Showtime. |
Kobe and Lamar each routinely have 6-7 assist nights within the tri, no problem. One reason they don't get more is because they simply do not have the passing skills that Kidd possesses. As good as Kobe and Lamar are they don't always make the right pass at the right time to the right player even within the confines of the offense. So they turn it over or pass it to a guy out of rhythm or don't quite hit a cutter at the right moment. Kidd does, more often than not, make the right pass to the right guy at the right moment. So doing nothing more than stepping into the same role Kobe and Lamar share, he'd get 2 or 3 more assists than they average simply by making better passes. Within the offense. In fact, considering he'd be making those passes to Kobe and Lamar (who would be off the ball a lot more with Kidd on the team), I think he could average 8-9 assists in his sleep without having to break the offense.
Moreover, you say this isn't "Showtime", neglecting the very obvious--namely that Phil has repeatedly said this season he wants the team to get into transition offense when the opportunity is there. They didn't fastbreak back in the Shaq days because Shaq couldn't be bothered to run. Now they have the personnel to fastbreak except no capable guard (e.g. a rebounding guard who can push the ball in the open court and get easy baskets on the break). He'd be running fast breaks with Kobe and Odom on the wings. I agree with Ventura that he'd rack up a few assists every night just in the transition game. That is sheer absurdity to suggest that Phil would get a guard like Kidd and tell him to never push the ball.
I think his assists might even go up if he played for the Lakers.
You're also forgetting LB that Wilt averaged 7.8 and 8.6 assists per game the 2 seasons he ran the tri under Alex Hannum in the late 60s. Not to mention Jerry West averaged 7+ assists running some tri on the Lakers in the early 70s (9+ two seasons in a row in fact). Oscar Robertson averaged 8.2 assists per game running the triangle for the Bucks in 1971 with Kareem. So there is precedence for guys averaging a lot of assists using the triangle. You can fall back on the faster paced game excuse if you want, but teams are playing faster the last couple seasons, and the Lakers are playing a pretty fast clip themselves this season (because they do, contrary to what you maintain, try to push the ball and get into early offense). |
The triangle won't change just because Kidd shows up. It's still gonna be the triangle offense no matter what. Having said that, Kidd will have to share those dimes with Kobe, Lamar, and Walton so him averaging 7+ dimes a game just won't happen. The player changes his game for the system, not the other way around.
Getting out in transition isn't always gonna be the case because the transition game is predicated off defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks and that may not always be the case. The triangle spacing alone will keep Kidd away from his normal spots to where he can get a board and run the rock up the floor, so you have to take that into consideration as well.
Wilt, West, Oscar played in different eras with different rules and different players and different coaching philosophies. There's no way you can compare the 60s & 70s to the game of this day and age.
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AllorNothing
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Kidd can get high assists in the triangle by posting up all the little guards in the league.  |
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Vlade
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | RG73 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Quote: | So the question becomes, could Kidd average 8-9 assists per game in the triangle?
Well, Pippen averaged 7 per game one year in the triangle, so I would think Kidd could average at least that, and probably more |
You just showed why he wouldn't average about 7+...he's not playing the Point Forward like Pip was, which is like playing PG in a sense. |
He would be playing the Point Guard, which is exactly like playing PG. Kidd could average 5 assists a game on this team just in transition. |
All that's fine and dandy but he wouldn't average 7+ dimes. That's about as pipe as it gets. It's the Triangle Offense not Showtime. |
Kobe and Lamar each routinely have 6-7 assist nights within the tri, no problem. One reason they don't get more is because they simply do not have the passing skills that Kidd possesses. As good as Kobe and Lamar are they don't always make the right pass at the right time to the right player even within the confines of the offense. So they turn it over or pass it to a guy out of rhythm or don't quite hit a cutter at the right moment. Kidd does, more often than not, make the right pass to the right guy at the right moment. So doing nothing more than stepping into the same role Kobe and Lamar share, he'd get 2 or 3 more assists than they average simply by making better passes. Within the offense. In fact, considering he'd be making those passes to Kobe and Lamar (who would be off the ball a lot more with Kidd on the team), I think he could average 8-9 assists in his sleep without having to break the offense.
Moreover, you say this isn't "Showtime", neglecting the very obvious--namely that Phil has repeatedly said this season he wants the team to get into transition offense when the opportunity is there. They didn't fastbreak back in the Shaq days because Shaq couldn't be bothered to run. Now they have the personnel to fastbreak except no capable guard (e.g. a rebounding guard who can push the ball in the open court and get easy baskets on the break). He'd be running fast breaks with Kobe and Odom on the wings. I agree with Ventura that he'd rack up a few assists every night just in the transition game. That is sheer absurdity to suggest that Phil would get a guard like Kidd and tell him to never push the ball.
I think his assists might even go up if he played for the Lakers.
You're also forgetting LB that Wilt averaged 7.8 and 8.6 assists per game the 2 seasons he ran the tri under Alex Hannum in the late 60s. Not to mention Jerry West averaged 7+ assists running some tri on the Lakers in the early 70s (9+ two seasons in a row in fact). Oscar Robertson averaged 8.2 assists per game running the triangle for the Bucks in 1971 with Kareem. So there is precedence for guys averaging a lot of assists using the triangle. You can fall back on the faster paced game excuse if you want, but teams are playing faster the last couple seasons, and the Lakers are playing a pretty fast clip themselves this season (because they do, contrary to what you maintain, try to push the ball and get into early offense). |
The triangle won't change just because Kidd shows up. It's still gonna be the triangle offense no matter what. Having said that, Kidd will have to share those dimes with Kobe, Lamar, and Walton so him averaging 7+ dimes a game just won't happen. The player changes his game for the system, not the other way around.
Getting out in transition isn't always gonna be the case because the transition game is predicated off defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks and that may not always be the case. The triangle spacing alone will keep Kidd away from his normal spots to where he can get a board and run the rock up the floor, so you have to take that into consideration as well.
Wilt, West, Oscar played in different eras with different rules and different players and different coaching philosophies. There's no way you can compare the 60s & 70s to the game of this day and age. |
Sorry LB, but I think RG has the best of this particular argument. The trinagle is a passing offense, so I don't see why Kidd assists would plummet. I agree that he would have the ball out of his hands more than he is comfortable with... but he'd still have lots of assist opps, and I would expect him to avg at least 8.
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Vlade
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| EdfromSimiValley wrote: | I guess I'll make my once every 6 months post now.
Jason Kidd averages more rebounds than Kwame Brown
Unless the Lakers make a move soon (within the next year or so for a big) the chances of Kobe winning are going to get less and less. Although I'm not fond of Kidd's shooting proficiency or lack thereof, at least he gives you a chance to win for the next 2-3 years. In my opinion you have to make the sacrifice now if you can, even if it means giving up Farmar.
At this point, given Smush's play, even Andre Miller would suffice because you know what you get and he would have something to play for. If you can land Miller without giving up Farmar, you do it in my opinion.
Despite the recent polls and articles, this team doesn't have what it takes to get to the Finals. Longshot, yes, everyone does, but in reality, do you believe it? The inconsistency will kill us. Unless Kwame is our savior, this team is still missing pieces. Even Miller/Hunter would suffice, if not Kidd somehow. |
Nice post Ed... maybe you should chime in more often
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| Vlade wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | RG73 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Quote: | So the question becomes, could Kidd average 8-9 assists per game in the triangle?
Well, Pippen averaged 7 per game one year in the triangle, so I would think Kidd could average at least that, and probably more |
You just showed why he wouldn't average about 7+...he's not playing the Point Forward like Pip was, which is like playing PG in a sense. |
He would be playing the Point Guard, which is exactly like playing PG. Kidd could average 5 assists a game on this team just in transition. |
All that's fine and dandy but he wouldn't average 7+ dimes. That's about as pipe as it gets. It's the Triangle Offense not Showtime. |
Kobe and Lamar each routinely have 6-7 assist nights within the tri, no problem. One reason they don't get more is because they simply do not have the passing skills that Kidd possesses. As good as Kobe and Lamar are they don't always make the right pass at the right time to the right player even within the confines of the offense. So they turn it over or pass it to a guy out of rhythm or don't quite hit a cutter at the right moment. Kidd does, more often than not, make the right pass to the right guy at the right moment. So doing nothing more than stepping into the same role Kobe and Lamar share, he'd get 2 or 3 more assists than they average simply by making better passes. Within the offense. In fact, considering he'd be making those passes to Kobe and Lamar (who would be off the ball a lot more with Kidd on the team), I think he could average 8-9 assists in his sleep without having to break the offense.
Moreover, you say this isn't "Showtime", neglecting the very obvious--namely that Phil has repeatedly said this season he wants the team to get into transition offense when the opportunity is there. They didn't fastbreak back in the Shaq days because Shaq couldn't be bothered to run. Now they have the personnel to fastbreak except no capable guard (e.g. a rebounding guard who can push the ball in the open court and get easy baskets on the break). He'd be running fast breaks with Kobe and Odom on the wings. I agree with Ventura that he'd rack up a few assists every night just in the transition game. That is sheer absurdity to suggest that Phil would get a guard like Kidd and tell him to never push the ball.
I think his assists might even go up if he played for the Lakers.
You're also forgetting LB that Wilt averaged 7.8 and 8.6 assists per game the 2 seasons he ran the tri under Alex Hannum in the late 60s. Not to mention Jerry West averaged 7+ assists running some tri on the Lakers in the early 70s (9+ two seasons in a row in fact). Oscar Robertson averaged 8.2 assists per game running the triangle for the Bucks in 1971 with Kareem. So there is precedence for guys averaging a lot of assists using the triangle. You can fall back on the faster paced game excuse if you want, but teams are playing faster the last couple seasons, and the Lakers are playing a pretty fast clip themselves this season (because they do, contrary to what you maintain, try to push the ball and get into early offense). |
The triangle won't change just because Kidd shows up. It's still gonna be the triangle offense no matter what. Having said that, Kidd will have to share those dimes with Kobe, Lamar, and Walton so him averaging 7+ dimes a game just won't happen. The player changes his game for the system, not the other way around.
Getting out in transition isn't always gonna be the case because the transition game is predicated off defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks and that may not always be the case. The triangle spacing alone will keep Kidd away from his normal spots to where he can get a board and run the rock up the floor, so you have to take that into consideration as well.
Wilt, West, Oscar played in different eras with different rules and different players and different coaching philosophies. There's no way you can compare the 60s & 70s to the game of this day and age. |
Sorry LB, but I think RG has the best of this particular argument. The trinagle is a passing offense, so I don't see why Kidd assists would plummet. I agree that he would have the ball out of his hands more than he is comfortable with... but he'd still have lots of assist opps, and I would expect him to avg at least 8. |
But you just proved my point: The ball wouldn't be in his hands as it normally would in the offense he runs now, therefore, he won't be able to maintain his assists, and nowhere near around 8...the triangle offense doesn't allow big assists from the same guy night in and night out.
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ocho
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: |
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LB you say that the system doesn't change for the player. did the triangle not change for shaq?
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | LB you say that the system doesn't change for the player. did the triangle not change for shaq? |
No, in fact, the triangle is perfect for big men and shooters. That's why Phil JUMPED at the chance to run the triangle with Shaq because Shaq was one of the best passing big men, especially out of the post to the wide open man. And with the double and triple teams Shaq was warranting, there were ALWAYS at least 2 wide open players at any given time when he had the rock.
The Triangle with Shaq/Kobe was better than the triangle with MJ/Pip. Now, can you imagine MJ's 90s Bulls winning 3 in a row twice while playing IN THE WEST? Not even. He would have been lucky to get 2 titles TOPS.
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fansincemagic
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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ocho, the key word there is "change" when in reality the scheme he used in Chicago was not a carbon copy of the one in LA, it was "altered" but not totally changed. The key with the Lakers was for Shaq to establish his position inside and kick out and repost to players that ran the triangle around him. It created great spacing for guys like Shaw, Harp and others to hit open shots. Had the Bulls let the three headed monster dominate the middle, it would have cloged the middle for Pip and Jordan to opperate, so you were more likely to see Will Purdue have a 15 ft. jumper than Shaq.
I guess what I'm getting at is that they didn't totally change the system for Shaq, but they found a way to alter it to use his strength in a different way that they used it for MJ and Pip. Shaq was a dominant force, and any team that had him would be crazy not to alter the offense. If they were to add Kidd, the alteration could be that your transition game improves, and his rebounding helps get into the offense quicker. The difference between Kidd and say J. Williams is that he is smart enough to not run for the sake of running, but trust the offense. Kidd won't put up the same stats, but maybe a small boost when they get transition opportunities will change a few close L's into W's. |
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, the triangle was dumbed down with Shaq.
If you want to see the triangle at its best, you need to go back to the 71-72 Lakers. |
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RG73
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | Actually, the triangle was dumbed down with Shaq.
If you want to see the triangle at its best, you need to go back to the 71-72 Lakers. |
Gee, you mean when Jerry West averaged 9.7 assists per game, even though LuxuryBrown will deny that this is possible to his last breath? A team couldn't possibly have played the triangle with a ball dominant PG and won 33 straight games and 69 games total and win the championship. I mean everyone knows the triangle can't possibly have a ball dominant PG.
Funny, West plays in the triangle and his career assists go up by 3 per game over his career average...
Oh yeah, but back your original point....yeah, I'm sad I wasn't around to see that team. West/Goodrich/Wilt/Hariston/McMillan running the tri+fast breaks, scoring 121 ppg, shooting nearly 50% from the field...that had to be amazing. |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Gee, you mean when Jerry West averaged 9.7 assists per game, even though LuxuryBrown will deny that this is possible to his last breath? |
What's funny is how whenever I bring up the fact that it was a different era with different athletes, coaching, rules, and schemes, you bail out of the thread for awhile...why is that? 
Do you HONESTLY think the 70s NBA is the SAME as the 00s NBA?
Your move, bro. 
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | | Actually, the triangle was dumbed down with Shaq. |
Actually, Shaq's presence made it easier to run rather than "dumbed-down" because the triangle suits big men and shooters. The version Phillip ran in Chi (and somewhat in L.A. now) had to be "tweaked" because it lacked that post presence. If anything, it was just another "wrinkle" in the triangle that you can run out of the triangle offense altogether.
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