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NestT Star Player
Joined: 05 Jul 2002 Posts: 4327 Location: The Shining City on a Hill
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: |
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davidse wrote: | like i said - money is an issue. big big issue if we get kidd.
and if you don't know that low post defense is collin's specialty - you have no right to use the term "clueless". |
Money is always an issue.
But the Nets are not near bankruptcy. They will not chuck massive amounts of talent over an extra years worth of contracts.
Low post defense may be Collin's specialty but it does not mean he is any good at it. Look at American Idol Rewind. Their specialty is singing.
The Nets can't give Collins away.If you believe the rumors they are trying to force the Lakers to take him.Elite post defenders in the NBA are worth around $7M.
If you don't know that you have no right to post on BB boards. _________________ Let the PAB hold out 2 years and walk without his Bird rights if he chooses.
OJ Mayo
Derrick Rose
Nicolas Batum
Michael Beasley
Chase Budinger
Darrell Arthur |
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davidse Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2005 Posts: 14302
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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the nets aren't giving collins away. they're getting kwame and cook and already have kristic.
the whole point of the kidd trade for them is shedding payroll and creating cap space.
and the money issue here is for the lakers - not the nets, but i dont' expect you to understand that.
i'll save my arguing to people with some actuall knowledge about the nba business and low post defense. |
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vakobe Star Player
Joined: 29 Mar 2003 Posts: 1392
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: |
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If we're counting on one of the biggest #1 draft pick busts ever to salvage this season, all hope is already lost.
Last edited by vakobe on Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mike_dee23 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 11703
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Best case scenerio, Lakers do the proposed trades; Nets cut Mihm; Mihm is ready by April and re-signs with the Lakers. This would give us three possible centers.
Kidd-Sasha
Kobe-Evans
Walton-Radman
Odom-Turiaf
Bynum-Collins-Mihm |
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Scherm Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 4155
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Kwame at least shows on the pick and roll and doesn't get manhandled like Bynum.
It's a quick league and Bynum is slow.
Enjoy those two blocks a game though. |
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vanexelent Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 30081
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Scherm wrote: | Kwame at least shows on the pick and roll and doesn't get manhandled like Bynum.
It's a quick league and Bynum is slow.
Enjoy those two blocks a game though. |
See the game in Cha. v.s. the Bobcats. Kwame and Smush were picked apart by Felton and Okafore. That was the first game that everyone was talking about our pick and roll defense and how bad it was. Just because time has elapsed and Kwame hasn't played in awhile doesn't mean that he got better at defending the pick. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Oh yes we can. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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golakersgo121 Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 11717 Location: 8 miles from Staples Center
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | If we are worried about rebounding, consider that Kidd is a better rebounder than Kwame is. |
Ventura, you know better. Your statement is not accurate at all.
Kidd is averaging more rebounds than Kwame is a more accurate statement. Kwame is the best box out rebounder on this team. I don't have to continue clarifying that whoever boxes out, does not necessarily get a rebound and a credit in the box score, do I? |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: |
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NestT wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | I guess since the Lakers have been talking to everyone about trading Kwame, that means they don't agree with you? Kwame is gone after next season even if he isn't traded. Kwame is as inconsistent as any player on this extremely inconsistent team. The best thing about having him healthy is making the bench stronger. |
Says who? There is nothing concrete on that. If Kwame is gone next week you can crow.Right now there is no proof. People posting here that this or that trade is happening have been wrong at the trade deadline for years.
I can almost gaurantee that the Lakers will not let Kwame walk for nothing.If he is traded in the summer or next year hopefully it is for something better than a 34 year old with MF surgery on a knee.
But we both don't know exactly what the FO thinks until they trade Kwame,let him walk, or sign him to another contract.
We shall see. |
Says an agent who has talked to the Lakers about Kwame. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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NestT wrote: | davidse wrote: | like i said - money is an issue. big big issue if we get kidd.
and if you don't know that low post defense is collin's specialty - you have no right to use the term "clueless". |
Money is always an issue.
But the Nets are not near bankruptcy. They will not chuck massive amounts of talent over an extra years worth of contracts.
Low post defense may be Collin's specialty but it does not mean he is any good at it. Look at American Idol Rewind. Their specialty is singing.
The Nets can't give Collins away.If you believe the rumors they are trying to force the Lakers to take him.Elite post defenders in the NBA are worth around $7M.
If you don't know that you have no right to post on BB boards. |
Do you realize the trade is for Kidd, not Collins? The Nets are only trying to get rid of Collins contract along with Kidds, their goal is not to replace him with Kwame. To their benefit, Kwame is more money that ends earlier. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: |
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golakersgo121 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | If we are worried about rebounding, consider that Kidd is a better rebounder than Kwame is. |
Ventura, you know better. Your statement is not accurate at all.
Kidd is averaging more rebounds than Kwame is a more accurate statement. Kwame is the best box out rebounder on this team. I don't have to continue clarifying that whoever boxes out, does not necessarily get a rebound and a credit in the box score, do I? |
Kidd will improve team rebounding more than Kwame does. Blocking out is nice, but if you can't grab a rebound, it gives the opponents just as much of a chance to grab it as it does your teammate. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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golakersgo121 Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 11717 Location: 8 miles from Staples Center
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | golakersgo121 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | If we are worried about rebounding, consider that Kidd is a better rebounder than Kwame is. |
Ventura, you know better. Your statement is not accurate at all.
Kidd is averaging more rebounds than Kwame is a more accurate statement. Kwame is the best box out rebounder on this team. I don't have to continue clarifying that whoever boxes out, does not necessarily get a rebound and a credit in the box score, do I? |
Kidd will improve team rebounding more than Kwame does. Blocking out is nice, but if you can't grab a rebound, it gives the opponents just as much of a chance to grab it as it does your teammate. |
That wouldn't be correct. Your teammates have to have inside position (that is usual defensively) and not to be flatfooted (that is one of the Smush's problem, for instance). It also amazing how often Kobe is flatfooted during rebound situation and yet manages to average almost 6 a game.
Kidd usually has a great rebounding position and is, indeed, better rebounder than both our guards (Kobe and Smush). And, defensively Kidd is very good at "leveling opposing guards off" thus preventing a dribble penetration as well as having a good BB IQ (he knows when to go under the screen and when to fight through)... |
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The Buss Star Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2006 Posts: 1350
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: |
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vanexelent wrote: | Scherm wrote: | Kwame at least shows on the pick and roll and doesn't get manhandled like Bynum.
It's a quick league and Bynum is slow.
Enjoy those two blocks a game though. |
See the game in Cha. v.s. the Bobcats. Kwame and Smush were picked apart by Felton and Okafore. That was the first game that everyone was talking about our pick and roll defense and how bad it was. Just because time has elapsed and Kwame hasn't played in awhile doesn't mean that he got better at defending the pick. |
True, Kwame isn't all that good at guarding Pick and Roll...but if Kwame's considered bad, then Bynum is hopeless. Bynum's body just doesn't allow him to guard the pick and roll at all. Quick feet is something he doesn't and probably will never have. We are truly lucky that teams aren't attacking him more than they currently are. _________________ [Insert ignorant or naive statement from poster here.] |
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Shinding Sixth Man
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 63
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Good thread. Good arguments. I like, I like.
I would love to get Kidd but I'm thinking if Buss/Mitch would make this deal. He's one of my favorite players but he is on the decline. But getting him would obviously be an advantage.
I got 2 questions for you guys.
1) Isn't Kidd going to put us over into the luxury tax realm? If yes, why would Buss want to make the trade?
To win now? Is Kidd REALLY going to make such a difference that we're going to win now? At 20 mil a year for a 34 year old with knee problems?
2) Kwame, IMO, does an excellent job slowing down the bigs such as Amare, Timmy, KG, and the likes. Who's going to stop them now?
If you're saying that Collins is part of the deal, how much is he getting paid?
More than Kwame? If so, once again, why would Buss make this deal?
Sorry if these details are already posted. |
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Lakerfan1-Iceland Sixth Man
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 60
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: g |
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Hell get me Jason Kidd ANYDAY over Kwame Brown!!!!!!!!
Sign some big body too a minimum and let Bynum play a little more, i have a feeling that with extra responsibility he will respond well, also Turiaf should be playing more! |
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ProjectAB Star Player
Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 1729
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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The Buss wrote: | vanexelent wrote: | Scherm wrote: | Kwame at least shows on the pick and roll and doesn't get manhandled like Bynum.
It's a quick league and Bynum is slow.
Enjoy those two blocks a game though. |
See the game in Cha. v.s. the Bobcats. Kwame and Smush were picked apart by Felton and Okafore. That was the first game that everyone was talking about our pick and roll defense and how bad it was. Just because time has elapsed and Kwame hasn't played in awhile doesn't mean that he got better at defending the pick. |
True, Kwame isn't all that good at guarding Pick and Roll...but if Kwame's considered bad, then Bynum is hopeless. Bynum's body just doesn't allow him to guard the pick and roll at all. Quick feet is something he doesn't and probably will never have. We are truly lucky that teams aren't attacking him more than they currently are. |
Bynum moved his feet just fine before his injury. In fact, we are giving up about the same amount of points with Kwame than without him, so clearly Kwame's defense is greatly overrated.
Like I said, the effect of Kwame has more to do with how other guys play, much more than his actual impact. Since Bynum went to the starting lineup, our 2nd unit's production has gone to the toilet. At the beginning of the season, they were touted one of the best, now they're one of the worst. |
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The Buss Star Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2006 Posts: 1350
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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ProjectAB wrote: | The Buss wrote: | vanexelent wrote: | Scherm wrote: | Kwame at least shows on the pick and roll and doesn't get manhandled like Bynum.
It's a quick league and Bynum is slow.
Enjoy those two blocks a game though. |
See the game in Cha. v.s. the Bobcats. Kwame and Smush were picked apart by Felton and Okafore. That was the first game that everyone was talking about our pick and roll defense and how bad it was. Just because time has elapsed and Kwame hasn't played in awhile doesn't mean that he got better at defending the pick. |
True, Kwame isn't all that good at guarding Pick and Roll...but if Kwame's considered bad, then Bynum is hopeless. Bynum's body just doesn't allow him to guard the pick and roll at all. Quick feet is something he doesn't and probably will never have. We are truly lucky that teams aren't attacking him more than they currently are. |
Bynum moved his feet just fine before his injury. In fact, we are giving up about the same amount of points with Kwame than without him, so clearly Kwame's defense is greatly overrated.
Like I said, the effect of Kwame has more to do with how other guys play, much more than his actual impact. Since Bynum went to the starting lineup, our 2nd unit's production has gone to the toilet. At the beginning of the season, they were touted one of the best, now they're one of the worst. |
What are the details of Bynum's injury? I've heard that he is suffering from tendinitas, is that true? _________________ [Insert ignorant or naive statement from poster here.] |
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KobeDunk Retired Number
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 26849
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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The Buss wrote: | ProjectAB wrote: | The Buss wrote: | vanexelent wrote: | Scherm wrote: | Kwame at least shows on the pick and roll and doesn't get manhandled like Bynum.
It's a quick league and Bynum is slow.
Enjoy those two blocks a game though. |
See the game in Cha. v.s. the Bobcats. Kwame and Smush were picked apart by Felton and Okafore. That was the first game that everyone was talking about our pick and roll defense and how bad it was. Just because time has elapsed and Kwame hasn't played in awhile doesn't mean that he got better at defending the pick. |
True, Kwame isn't all that good at guarding Pick and Roll...but if Kwame's considered bad, then Bynum is hopeless. Bynum's body just doesn't allow him to guard the pick and roll at all. Quick feet is something he doesn't and probably will never have. We are truly lucky that teams aren't attacking him more than they currently are. |
Bynum moved his feet just fine before his injury. In fact, we are giving up about the same amount of points with Kwame than without him, so clearly Kwame's defense is greatly overrated.
Like I said, the effect of Kwame has more to do with how other guys play, much more than his actual impact. Since Bynum went to the starting lineup, our 2nd unit's production has gone to the toilet. At the beginning of the season, they were touted one of the best, now they're one of the worst. |
What are the details of Bynum's injury? I've heard that he is suffering from tendinitas, is that true? |
Tendinitis at 19 ? not good ! |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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The Buss wrote: |
True, Kwame isn't all that good at guarding Pick and Roll...but if Kwame's considered bad, then Bynum is hopeless. Bynum's body just doesn't allow him to guard the pick and roll at all. Quick feet is something he doesn't and probably will never have. We are truly lucky that teams aren't attacking him more than they currently are. |
Kwame is better at bodying up big men, Bynum is better contesting shots, and Turiaf is better playing the pick and roll. Too bad this isn't football so we could do situational substitutions. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Aussiesuede Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 10964
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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vakobe wrote: | If we're counting on one of the biggest #1 draft pick busts ever to salvage this season, all hope is already lost. |
If you've got a Saleen Mustang that's capable of 200mph and a 0-60 time in under 4 seconds it's still not going to be able to achieve those figures if it's got two bad pistons. While those two pistons aren't individually the most important parts of the vehicle - they are necessary to achieve those goals. Kwame absence isn't the sole reason for the Lakers woes, but his presence is necessary if they are to achieve their overall goals. So just think of Kwame and Luke as the two pistons that currently aren't firing. The engine is going to run quite a bit better when they return.... _________________ I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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vanexelent Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 30081
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Aussiesuede wrote: | vakobe wrote: | If we're counting on one of the biggest #1 draft pick busts ever to salvage this season, all hope is already lost. |
If you've got a Saleen Mustang that's capable of 200mph and a 0-60 time in under 4 seconds it's still not going to be able to achieve those figures if it's got two bad pistons. While those two pistons aren't individually the most important parts of the vehicle - they are necessary to achieve those goals. Kwame absence isn't the sole reason for the Lakers woes, but his presence is necessary if they are to achieve their overall goals. So just think of Kwame and Luke as the two pistons that currently aren't firing. The engine is going to run quite a bit better when they return.... |
Give me Billups and Prince and then we can start talking about missing Pistons that would make this engine go. |
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Sage_10 Star Player
Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 6668
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: |
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I agree w/ the original poster. Sending out Kwame for Kidd would just be a bad move, Jason Collins included or not. _________________ "You Must Be Willing To Give Up That Which Can Be Lost In Order To Gain That Which Cannot Be Lost." - FORTUNE COOKIE |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: |
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golakersgo121 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | If we are worried about rebounding, consider that Kidd is a better rebounder than Kwame is. |
Ventura, you know better. Your statement is not accurate at all.
Kidd is averaging more rebounds than Kwame is a more accurate statement. Kwame is the best box out rebounder on this team. I don't have to continue clarifying that whoever boxes out, does not necessarily get a rebound and a credit in the box score, do I? |
Except, Kwame isn't consistent, and it's not like you're guaranteed 8-11rpg because of that kind of play out of Kwame Brown.
I'll take Kidd. Run a 3-headed monster with Bynum, Collins, and Turiaf for all I care.
It's better to have a PG rebound and push in transition. What Kidd can do that Kwame can't is actually force turnovers and create a higher team FG% just from transition opportunities.
Precisely why every team that Kidd goes to, improves dramatically. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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laker4life Star Player
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 7317
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: |
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It seems that the problem with this team is defense.
Is Jason really going to help us on defense.
Remember Payton and how Billiup destroyed him. Or Tony Parker and Mike Bibby against Fisher. Fans were destroying our Lakers.
Second, how old is the guy. I mean he really doesn't have that many years left.
I understand that this team needs to make a move but we have to be careful. Make a move which makes sense. Remember the Shaq trade and the Kwame trade for Butler really has not really don't anything to this team. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Is Jason really going to help us on defense.
Remember Payton and how Billiup destroyed him. Or Tony Parker and Mike Bibby against Fisher. Fans were destroying our Lakers.
Second, how old is the guy. I mean he really doesn't have that many years left. |
Basically, at least he's a supremely high IQ defender, but his real "defense" will just be attacking on offense and limiting turnovers; similar to Steve Nash.
Biggest difference is, at least you can stick Kidd on SGs. He's got enough overall size to do it, and plays well off-the-ball anyway. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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