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1000YOM
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Joined: 15 May 2001
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Location: Los Angeles
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 Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ForumBlueFrank wrote: | | Quote: | | a washed up big man |
An experienced former Allstar 7 foot Center is invaluable.
| Quote: | | a nitwit power forward |
Gooden is a consistent double double, and a fine player.
| Quote: | | a platoon of a rookie pg |
That rookie PG had 31 points alone tonight
| Quote: | | and a defensive-specialist who was washed up FIVE YEARS AGO |
Snow is a vet, and has just the kind of experience you need to get over the hump (see Ron Harper)
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a cartoon character |
Bob hustles and rebounds like a madman. A bigger and taller turiaf. He can play.
Guy has fit in nicely in the second unit when Lebron is resting and can put up numbers.
This team has talent. |
obviously i was exaggerating, but i have to comment on these responses. how can you possibly defend this team? ilgauskas is a good player who happened to be an all-star by default. gooden puts up 15 points and 8 rebounds a night, but that places him in the, oh i don't know, 65th percentile of NBA 4s. and just because daniel gibson scored 31 points in one game does not account for the fact that he is averaging a cool 6 points per game in the postseason while shooting 37%. and still, crazy as it seems, he's the BETTER of the two point guards they run out there, outproducing the "experienced vet" snow, who contributed a total of 2 points, 1 rebound, and 0 (repeat: NO) assists, while missing all five of the shots he took against detroit. i mean, to even defend eric snow's presence is crazy. i would think twice before trying to support an argument that relies on comparing a point guard who dropped zero dimes to ron harper. ron harper could at least make layups.
sideshow bob, i'll give you that. he's a cartoon character but he's a quality hustle guy. and pavlovic, he's young and stupid but he's a talent. but again, the point is, this is NOT a championship-caliber team, if not for the fact that lebron has gone above and beyond. i thought their fairy-tale ride through the playoffs was over once they hit d-town but lebron fooled us all, and all i'm saying is give the guy some credit, instead of trying to minimize his achievement by playing up the contributions of his teammates. the only achievement i saw from someone other than lebron was the coach, who somehow duped these guys into playing solid team defense throughout the series. THAT was unexpected. |
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ajaxxx
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2006
Location: Avondale AZ
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| KingKobe20Dub wrote: | Hey no disrespect to James . He does have a better teammates than Kobe. hey I am lakers all day but the truth is the truth. Lebron did lead and will his team to victory over the Pistons but he did have a good team.
Bron got Gibson who just dropped 31 against the Pistons in their good bye farewell game. When Kobe has Sasha????????????? |
I just heard Steve Hartman on Sport Center talking about Labron having a worst team around him, just made me sick.
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New Orleans Hornets superstar point guard Chris Paul is reportedly headed to the Los Angeles Lakers in a blockbuster trade. |
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Siguy
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Joined: 19 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my take:
Lebron is amazing, his game 5 win against the pistons will go down as one of the all time greatest performances of all time.
It single-handidly changed my opinion of him and I now believe he's championship material.
HOWEVER: He had the easiest path to the finals of any team in the last 10 years. The NBA's broken seeding system gave him the wizards in the first (basically a 30 seed) and the Nets (a 6 seed who barely scraped by a 3 on the backs of several injured players).
Let's face it, in the East, this Lakers team that we're talking about blowing up would be a 4 or 5 seed, easy.
Now the different talent levels: I'd say the Lakers might have slightly more talent but horribly constructed. The Cavs are properly constructed. They're not perfect; they desperately need more shooters and a point guard, but let's be clear: Snow or Gibson would be starting on the Lakers, the Lakers have worse shooters, and no one on the lakers is as good a post player as even Gooden, let alone Ilgauskus. So while Odom + Kobe may be more talent than a lot of the Cavs, the structure of the cavs is just better and fills more basic holes.
And the Pistons did self-destruct somewhat; Rasheed is their best playoff performer, and he hates Flip Saunders. And he's not smart enough to pull off playing great while hating teammates like Kobe and Shaq could.
So yes, congrats to Lebron, he's amazing and deserves to win a championship, but luck and situation played a part (just as they always do in this sport)
Last edited by Siguy on Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bol
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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LeBron is awesome. I look forward to watching him go up against the Spurs. I do think his teammates are a bit better than Kobe's, but the main difference is that they play defense.
However, if the Cavs had to play the Suns in the first round, they'd have been out quickly, so that's really what it comes down to. The playoffs are becoming more and more about getting favorable team matchups. |
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srekal2
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| We have more talent but we were injured and played disjointed basketball. Lebron makes the pass when doubled immediately for guys like Gibson to hit open threes. That is trust in your teammates and the chemistry we had at the beginning of the season. |
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Luke
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: |
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I don't like him when i watch him, but Mike Brown is a hell of a defensive coach : great defense always keep you in the game , so the refs can take over  |
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Basketball Fan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| ^ a shame Indiana didn't keep him around to take over after Carlisle left I think a lot of folks here were thinking the same thing last night. |
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TACH
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Basketball Fan wrote: | | ^ I think the NBA is rigged regardless hence I don't actually watch any of the games anymore after last season's debacle. But as for this particular game I can't comment either since I did not watch. |
You don't really think the league is rigged? |
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Ghost
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Posts: 1038
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Siguy wrote: |
HOWEVER: He had the easiest path to the finals of any team in the last 10 years. The NBA's broken seeding system gave him the wizards in the first (basically a 30 seed) and the Nets (a 6 seed who barely scraped by a 3 on the backs of several injured players).
Let's face it, in the East, this Lakers team that we're talking about blowing up would be a 4 or 5 seed, easy.
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2006-07 Regular Season:
Lakers vs. Eastern Conference 14-16 (.467)
Cavaliers vs. Western Conference 19-11 (.633) |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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No doubt the Cavs have a better roster, just rank each roster 1 through 10 and go down one by one...
1. Kobe v. Lebron - Even.
2. LO v. Ilgauskus - Lakers
3. Mihm v. Gooden - Cavs
4. Bynum v. Hughes - Cavs (for now)
5. Kwame v. Pavlocic - Lakers
6. Luke v. Marshall - Even
7. Farmar v. Gibson - Cavs (for now)
8. Ronny v. Varejeao - Cavs (for now)
9. Vlad v. Snow - Cavs (Vlad didn't play this year)
10. Smush v. Jones - Even
So that's Lakers 2, Cavs 5, and 3 even. Cavs had more talent, especially considering all our injuries.
Lebron has his one "Kobe-like" game, but the funny part is, we see Kobe have those games (albeit regular season) often simply because he needed to for us to win. I am surprised the Cavs made it this far, but, like the Jazz, they didn't have to face any of the tough teams in the East except Detroit (didn't see the Heat or the Bulls). I thought that, like the Spurs took care of the Jazz, the Pistons could take care of the Cavs, but I guess we were all wrong on that one. I personally see that series as more that Detroit lost it than Cleveland won it. Gotta give Lebron his props though...he took that team farther than I thought he could.
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Basketball Fan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | Basketball Fan wrote: | | ^ I think the NBA is rigged regardless hence I don't actually watch any of the games anymore after last season's debacle. But as for this particular game I can't comment either since I did not watch. |
You don't really think the league is rigged? |
Yes I do sure I keep up with things because the news around the league interests me more than the games itself but I can't bear to watch an NBA game anymore with all the ticky tack fouls and certain stars getting the "star treatment" it takes away from it.
It comes across as orchestrated to me. Watching last year's finals was the final straw for me. I honestly can't stomach how folks found that Finals to be legit. I can't justify 97 FT attempts for Wade in that series. Until Stern is out the NBA will continue to downslide in this horrid pattern. |
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doughboy90650
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Joined: 20 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Wow, less than a half hour after the game is all it took for someone to accuse the league of fixing the game. That has to be a world record. Let the whinefest begin! |
You knew it was coming brotha .... it always does. Utterly ridiculous. Big props to Cavs and LBJ. They should have swept this series. |
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doughboy90650
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Basketball Fan wrote: | | ^ I think the NBA is rigged |
They why aren't the Lakers in the Finals.
What's more sexier: Spurs v Cavs or Lakers v Cavs??
Why isn't the biggest market in the Finals?
If the NBA was rigged, you'd have the Bulls, Lakers or Knix in the Finals every year and the Spurs wouldn't be looking at 4 titles in 9 years. That's just fact. |
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Basketball Fan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| doughboy90650 wrote: | | Basketball Fan wrote: | | ^ I think the NBA is rigged |
They why aren't the Lakers in the Finals.
What's more sexier: Spurs v Cavs or Lakers v Cavs??
Why isn't the biggest market in the Finals?
If the NBA was rigged, you'd have the Bulls, Lakers or Knix in the Finals every year and the Spurs wouldn't be looking at 4 titles in 9 years. That's just fact. |
I guess I should clarify: I think the NBA is rigged to an extent. Even the NBA can't save the Knicks(despite the alleged 1985 draft scandal) with Isiah at the helm. I do think the NBA caters to certain stars and alienates others based on marketing and who comes across as more profitable.
LeBron is more profitable to the NBA than say the Bulls, Knicks or any other storied franchise in the East. So it would be in the best interest to help LeBron to an extent.
Same in the West for how they latch onto the Suns. I'm sure if Kobe wasn't on the Lakers Stern would be more than happy to help but Kobe is persona non grata to him so you folks won't be seeing anything in a long long time.
Of course the Lakers are a crappy team sans Kobe so even Stern couldn't do anything to save them at this point. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Basketball Fan wrote: | | doughboy90650 wrote: | | Basketball Fan wrote: | | ^ I think the NBA is rigged |
They why aren't the Lakers in the Finals.
What's more sexier: Spurs v Cavs or Lakers v Cavs??
Why isn't the biggest market in the Finals?
If the NBA was rigged, you'd have the Bulls, Lakers or Knix in the Finals every year and the Spurs wouldn't be looking at 4 titles in 9 years. That's just fact. |
I guess I should clarify: I think the NBA is rigged to an extent. Even the NBA can't save the Knicks(despite the alleged 1985 draft scandal) with Isiah at the helm. I do think the NBA caters to certain stars and alienates others based on marketing and who comes across as more profitable.
LeBron is more profitable to the NBA than say the Bulls, Knicks or any other storied franchise in the East. So it would be in the best interest to help LeBron to an extent.
Same in the West for how they latch onto the Suns. I'm sure if Kobe wasn't on the Lakers Stern would be more than happy to help but Kobe is persona non grata to him so you folks won't be seeing anything in a long long time.
Of course the Lakers are a crappy team sans Kobe so even Stern couldn't do anything to save them at this point. |
so the league is rigged to the extent that it suits your argument that it is rigged?
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Basketball Fan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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No I meant that the league is rigged to an extent based on the circumstances involved. Take last year's Finals what would make the better story? Heat or the Mavs?
Stern hates Cuban who owns the Mavs the last thing he wants is to see someone who's as vocal as he is about how things are done in the NBA to win.
The Heat OTOH have Shaq and his new sidekick Wade who has the clean image that Kobe no longer has. Plus it would be great to see Shaq win a title without Kobe. Thus Shaq= Good Kobe= Evil. Hence Wade and his 97 FT attempts in last year's Finals seriously Jordan never had that treatment.
Speaking of Jordan about how he started a fight with Reggie Miller and it was Miller that got suspended not Jordan.
Oh and how he pushed off Byron Russell to make that GW shot against Utah in the 1998 Finals. Who would Stern rather see win? Jordan and the Bulls or Utah?
Yeah...
In the end its about the cash cow. Yes Stern would love NYC and LA to go against each other every year in the Finals but it would be in his best interest to have as many shareholders(teams) all with the possibility of being in it to make it more profitable. However it becomes obvious with certain calls and bogus suspensions (like the one Stackhouse received in last year's Finals) who Stern really wants to succeed as opposed to who he doesn't.
He's not even that discreet either. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: |
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so the league is rigged sometimes (when Basketball Fan thinks it is) and not rigged other times. so they only rig the finals? but you just said they rigged the ECF.
so basically you've developed a system where something happens that you don't like and you say the league rigged it. and when everything happens that you like or don't care about...the league is not rigged.
do you ever listen to yourself or re-read your posts?
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TACH
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Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Basketball Fan wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | Basketball Fan wrote: | | ^ I think the NBA is rigged regardless hence I don't actually watch any of the games anymore after last season's debacle. But as for this particular game I can't comment either since I did not watch. |
You don't really think the league is rigged? |
Yes I do sure I keep up with things because the news around the league interests me more than the games itself but I can't bear to watch an NBA game anymore with all the ticky tack fouls and certain stars getting the "star treatment" it takes away from it.
It comes across as orchestrated to me. Watching last year's finals was the final straw for me. I honestly can't stomach how folks found that Finals to be legit. I can't justify 97 FT attempts for Wade in that series. Until Stern is out the NBA will continue to downslide in this horrid pattern. |
Interesting take...
I can understand your frustration, especially with the Finals last year (but keep in mind, The General's plan of intentionally foul definitely, without a doubt contributed to the FT count). Since the game is moving more towards an 'international style' the 'refereeing' has been consistently inconsistent. Outside of Amare's and Boris' suspension, every other hard foul, flagrant foul have been questionable, meaning the punishment has been inconsistently applied... and that truly sucks. It's ruining the game.
I mean Horry gets two game... LBJ, JRich, Gino, B.Diddy, McDyess get nothing? Huh? I won't even bring up the regular season.
But with all that... I can't say it's rigged. There is way too much at stake. Plsu, how do you pull somehting like that off?
What Stern really needs to do is invest in the officiate of this game. I'm talking Referee Certification
Require re-certification every 3 years
Individual performance evaluations
Get rid of Stu. Instead have a panel with selections being done by the players union and the front office (checks and balance).
Also standardize the review process... including making it mandatory that the players involved are interviewed. Also, there should be a 'real' appeals process. The current system, if you can call it that, is too 'behind closes doors'. It's already a subjective in nature, why add the element of secrecy to the process... |
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Basketball Fan
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Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 24803
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | so the league is rigged sometimes (when Basketball Fan thinks it is) and not rigged other times. so they only rig the finals? but you just said they rigged the ECF.
so basically you've developed a system where something happens that you don't like and you say the league rigged it. and when everything happens that you like or don't care about...the league is not rigged.
do you ever listen to yourself or re-read your posts? |
I do apparently you don't the NBA is rigged in general doesn't matter what time of year I just mentioned what I found to be blatant examples of it. The more obvious ones just happen to be more noticeable to me in the playoffs. I take it you don't agree.
Okay then. |
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Basketball Fan
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Joined: 03 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | Basketball Fan wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | Basketball Fan wrote: | | ^ I think the NBA is rigged regardless hence I don't actually watch any of the games anymore after last season's debacle. But as for this particular game I can't comment either since I did not watch. |
You don't really think the league is rigged? |
Yes I do sure I keep up with things because the news around the league interests me more than the games itself but I can't bear to watch an NBA game anymore with all the ticky tack fouls and certain stars getting the "star treatment" it takes away from it.
It comes across as orchestrated to me. Watching last year's finals was the final straw for me. I honestly can't stomach how folks found that Finals to be legit. I can't justify 97 FT attempts for Wade in that series. Until Stern is out the NBA will continue to downslide in this horrid pattern. |
Interesting take...
I can understand your frustration, especially with the Finals last year (but keep in mind, The General's plan of intentionally foul definitely, without a doubt contributed to the FT count). Since the game is moving more towards an 'international style' the 'refereeing' has been consistently inconsistent. Outside of Amare's and Boris' suspension, every other hard foul, flagrant foul have been questionable, meaning the punishment has been inconsistently applied... and that truly sucks. It's ruining the game.
I mean Horry gets two game... LBJ, JRich, Gino, B.Diddy, McDyess get nothing? Huh? I won't even bring up the regular season.
But with all that... I can't say it's rigged. There is way too much at stake. Plsu, how do you pull somehting like that off?
What Stern really needs to do is invest in the officiate of this game. I'm talking Referee Certification
Require re-certification every 3 years
Individual performance evaluations
Get rid of Stu. Instead have a panel with selections being done by the players union and the front office (checks and balance).
Also standardize the review process... including making it mandatory that the players involved are interviewed. Also, there should be a 'real' appeals process. The current system, if you can call it that, is too 'behind closes doors'. It's already a subjective in nature, why add the element of secrecy to the process... |
That would help but the problem is Stu is Stern's crony and he will go when Stern wants him too a lot like Joey Crawford who I'm sure is now a Cavs fan at this point. Putting that aside everyone is under Stern's payroll there's a reason why he comes across as a dictator. Now granted there are a lot of variables that keep any game from being effectively rigged but there's to me at least rigging involved on some level. |
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TACH
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Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Basketball Fan wrote: | | doughboy90650 wrote: | | Basketball Fan wrote: | | ^ I think the NBA is rigged |
They why aren't the Lakers in the Finals.
What's more sexier: Spurs v Cavs or Lakers v Cavs??
Why isn't the biggest market in the Finals?
If the NBA was rigged, you'd have the Bulls, Lakers or Knix in the Finals every year and the Spurs wouldn't be looking at 4 titles in 9 years. That's just fact. |
I guess I should clarify: I think the NBA is rigged to an extent. Even the NBA can't save the Knicks(despite the alleged 1985 draft scandal) with Isiah at the helm. I do think the NBA caters to certain stars and alienates others based on marketing and who comes across as more profitable.
LeBron is more profitable to the NBA than say the Bulls, Knicks or any other storied franchise in the East. So it would be in the best interest to help LeBron to an extent.
Same in the West for how they latch onto the Suns. I'm sure if Kobe wasn't on the Lakers Stern would be more than happy to help but Kobe is persona non grata to him so you folks won't be seeing anything in a long long time.
Of course the Lakers are a crappy team sans Kobe so even Stern couldn't do anything to save them at this point. |
If it was rigged... east coast basketball wouldn't be so bad, after all the east does the get the lion share of eyes balls/viewing public... everybody complains that the west coast games start too late and most of the country is asleep before they end... remember for the first half of the season, there were like 4 teams over .500 in the east. |
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TACH
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Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Basketball Fan wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | Basketball Fan wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | Basketball Fan wrote: | | ^ I think the NBA is rigged regardless hence I don't actually watch any of the games anymore after last season's debacle. But as for this particular game I can't comment either since I did not watch. |
You don't really think the league is rigged? |
Yes I do sure I keep up with things because the news around the league interests me more than the games itself but I can't bear to watch an NBA game anymore with all the ticky tack fouls and certain stars getting the "star treatment" it takes away from it.
It comes across as orchestrated to me. Watching last year's finals was the final straw for me. I honestly can't stomach how folks found that Finals to be legit. I can't justify 97 FT attempts for Wade in that series. Until Stern is out the NBA will continue to downslide in this horrid pattern. |
Interesting take...
I can understand your frustration, especially with the Finals last year (but keep in mind, The General's plan of intentionally foul definitely, without a doubt contributed to the FT count). Since the game is moving more towards an 'international style' the 'refereeing' has been consistently inconsistent. Outside of Amare's and Boris' suspension, every other hard foul, flagrant foul have been questionable, meaning the punishment has been inconsistently applied... and that truly sucks. It's ruining the game.
I mean Horry gets two game... LBJ, JRich, Gino, B.Diddy, McDyess get nothing? Huh? I won't even bring up the regular season.
But with all that... I can't say it's rigged. There is way too much at stake. Plsu, how do you pull somehting like that off?
What Stern really needs to do is invest in the officiate of this game. I'm talking Referee Certification
Require re-certification every 3 years
Individual performance evaluations
Get rid of Stu. Instead have a panel with selections being done by the players union and the front office (checks and balance).
Also standardize the review process... including making it mandatory that the players involved are interviewed. Also, there should be a 'real' appeals process. The current system, if you can call it that, is too 'behind closes doors'. It's already a subjective in nature, why add the element of secrecy to the process... |
That would help but the problem is Stu is Stern's crony and he will go when Stern wants him too a lot like Joey Crawford who I'm sure is now a Cavs fan at this point. Putting that aside everyone is under Stern's payroll there's a reason why he comes across as a dictator. Now granted there are a lot of variables that keep any game from being effectively rigged but there's to me at least rigging involved on some level. |
I just don't know how you can keep something like that a secret. Somebody would talk, write book, go on dateline, etc.
Imagine what would happen if the front office rigged the games and it got out. We are talking prison time, lawsuits, and what would Vegas do? What too much at stake for it to be rigged. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Basketball Fan wrote: | | ocho wrote: | so the league is rigged sometimes (when Basketball Fan thinks it is) and not rigged other times. so they only rig the finals? but you just said they rigged the ECF.
so basically you've developed a system where something happens that you don't like and you say the league rigged it. and when everything happens that you like or don't care about...the league is not rigged.
do you ever listen to yourself or re-read your posts? |
I do apparently you don't the NBA is rigged in general doesn't matter what time of year I just mentioned what I found to be blatant examples of it. The more obvious ones just happen to be more noticeable to me in the playoffs. I take it you don't agree.
Okay then. |
so if it's rigged...why bother watch?
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doughboy90650
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: |
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What would honestly make the most money for Stern? Think about it.
New York Knix, who hasnt won a title since 1973 versus the only home team that never wore white (before getting the new uni's) - Lakers.
Medias 1 and 2. East coast, West Coast. New York/New Jersey vs Los Angeles/San Diego/Orange County. Even people in between would have to watch especially with all the New York transplants everywhere.
Stern had nuffin to do with riggin' the NBA this year or in any year. Do refs make horrible calls? Hell yeah but Stern's not blowing the whistles. Especially in the playoffs, the best team will always win.
Cuban can cry about last year all he wants. If Dirk steps up, Dallas wins. Has nuffin to do with Stern.
Detroit melted down. Had nuffin to do with Stern. |
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TACH
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| doughboy90650 wrote: | What would honestly make the most money for Stern? Think about it.
New York Knix, who hasnt won a title since 1973 versus the only home team that never wore white (before getting the new uni's) - Lakers.
Medias 1 and 2. East coast, West Coast. New York/New Jersey vs Los Angeles/San Diego/Orange County. Even people in between would have to watch especially with all the New York transplants everywhere.
Stern had nuffin to do with riggin' the NBA this year or in any year. Do refs make horrible calls? Hell yeah but Stern's not blowing the whistles. Especially in the playoffs, the best team will always win.
Cuban can cry about last year all he wants. If Dirk steps up, Dallas wins. Has nuffin to do with Stern.
Detroit melted down. Had nuffin to do with Stern. |
Except LBJ should of been suspended for Game 3  |
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