A Certain Plus-Sized Host: "The Lakers are quietly working on something big."
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Dr. Laker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:32 am    Post subject: A Certain Plus-Sized Host: "The Lakers are quietly working on something big."

Out of boredom while travelling on business, I listened to a "certain plus-sized talk show host" over the internet last night on the Lakers' flagship station.

Anyway, the host was defending the Derek Fisher signing (which I'm against), but he was defending it in primarily in the context of "step one in a series of steps". Fish not being a solution in and of himself, but as a piece in a "grand plan."

The host then said that the Lakers ARE very much working on a huge deal (no names were dropped), but that after the team's recent lack of media discipline, they are playing it very close to the vest and keeping things quiet.

Now, I happen to feel that if the team is making a bunch of moves, the common sense approach is to make the biggest moves early, then make the small moves, because you have all of your assets at hand to close the most important part.

But it got me to thinking. The "Plus-sized Host" - who I cannot bear to listen to due to his incessant Kobe-bashing - used to have credibility with the Lakers (during the Jerry West regime) and may still have an inside line.

In any event - my question is: IF the Lakers are working on a secret, huge move, how likely are they to be successful?


I love the team and want them to win - even with a boob like Jimmy Buss in charge. Quite frankly, they haven't pulled off a major coup in trade in the Mitch Kupchak era. They salvaged Horace Grant in 2000 after blowing a couple golden opportunities that summer, but otherwise, it's been "Greg Foster for Lindsey Hunter" type moves. I just don't think they have the will, resolve or ability to get a major deal done.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:44 am    Post subject:

They also don't have the cooperation of anyone else in the league. When a team wins 3 titles in a row there is a general consensus among the other franchises that precede all trade logic. Bring the champs down and keep 'em down. This holds true for the NBA brass as well. The whole system is set up to keep any one franchise from becoming a dynasty and you need a GM who is whole lot more clever than Mitch to play the system.

That being said, as a lifelong Laker fan, I still hold out hope that our FO can pull a rabbit out of its hat. I agree, the Fisher signing may just be the tip of the iceburg. Let's hope.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:51 am    Post subject:

ElginBaylor wrote:
They also don't have the cooperation of anyone else in the league. When a team wins 3 titles in a row there is a general consensus among the other franchises that precede all trade logic.


I never really bought that one (well, maybe during the 80s). The Bulls were able to make moves (trade for Rodman, sign Harper, Kukoc, etc.). The Spurs won two of their 4 titles in 8 years by twice trading for starting centers (not MAJOR, but key).

Besides, we haven't won jack in 5 seasons - I don't think organizational hate has that kind of life.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:07 am    Post subject:

This could be something big.

This rumor is flying around Celtic forums:

Wolves get:

Bynum
Green
Ratliff
Kwame

Lakers get:

Garnett

Celtics get:

Odom


This trade works in the trade checker, and it makes sense! Minnesota gets 2 nice up and coming players and salary relief. Boston gets Odom for basically Green. The Lakers score The BIG TICKET!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:11 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
ElginBaylor wrote:
They also don't have the cooperation of anyone else in the league. When a team wins 3 titles in a row there is a general consensus among the other franchises that precede all trade logic.


I never really bought that one (well, maybe during the 80s). The Bulls were able to make moves (trade for Rodman, sign Harper, Kukoc, etc.). The Spurs won two of their 4 titles in 8 years by twice trading for starting centers (not MAJOR, but key).

Besides, we haven't won jack in 5 seasons - I don't think organizational hate has that kind of life.


Having lived outside of LA (in three entirely different regions of the country), I can tell you at least from a fanbase perspective, which IMO translates upwards into franchise management, that outside of the Laker fanbase, our guys are pretty much hated by everyone else. Much more so than the Bulls or San Antonio. People outside of La La Land percieve LA as phony glam and glitz while SA etc are saints who can play ball. Face it, the Lakers are the NY Yankees of basketball. And as I mentioned, teams like SA, Pheonix, etc. have been a) clever in the building process, b) lucky, and c) well, I can't think of a c.

Also, I think getting to the finals in 2004 is jack so I would modify that 5 seasons down to 3. Well within the lifespan of organizational hate. I know this has been brought up by myself and many others on this board time and time again but it is worth repeating. How long has it been since the Bulls have been to the finals? An even more drastic example is the Celtics. I don't think we're anywhere near going down that road, but then I'm pretty much an optimist which seems to be a minority position on LG.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:20 am    Post subject:

MyKRo wrote:
This could be something big.

This rumor is flying around Celtic forums:

Wolves get:

Bynum
Green
Ratliff
Kwame

Lakers get:

Garnett

Celtics get:

Odom


This trade works in the trade checker, and it makes sense! Minnesota gets 2 nice up and coming players and salary relief. Boston gets Odom for basically Green. The Lakers score The BIG TICKET!


If this is true (I won't get my hopes up) my only worry is who do we get to play center. Resigned Mihm? Try and score an aging Magloire with the remainder of our MLE?

Fish/Farmer/Crit
Kobe/Mo/Sasha
Luke/Mo/Rad
KG/Turiaf
Mihm/Magloire/Turiaf

Might be a little thin at the 4 but definitely a team ready to compete.

Oh, forgot about Cook. Is he still on the team?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:32 am    Post subject:

Quote:
MyKro--This rumor is flying around Celtic forums


That's been flying around a lot of places for the last couple days. The plausibility of that rumor is debatable, but it has been widely reported that Kupchak is working on three-team deals to get Garnett.

If I were running the Celtics, I don't know why I'd want Odom when I've got Pierce and Jefferson at forward. It only makes sense if they plan to package Odom somewhere else. On the other hand, it has been widely reported that the Timberwolves are not excited about Bynum. Why would they take Bynum, Green, and a couple expiring contracts for KG? That doesn't sound like a great deal for them (given their ambivalence toward Bynum) unless there are more pieces, such as draft picks, involved.

Quote:
Elgin--Having lived outside of LA (in three entirely different regions of the country), I can tell you at least from a fanbase perspective, which IMO translates upwards into franchise management, that outside of the Laker fanbase, our guys are pretty much hated by everyone else.


That seems like a pretty dubious assumption. The fans of other teams have hated the Lakers for a long, long time.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:40 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Quote:
MyKro--This rumor is flying around Celtic forums


That's been flying around a lot of places for the last couple days. The plausibility of that rumor is debatable, but it has been widely reported that Kupchak is working on three-team deals to get Garnett.

If I were running the Celtics, I don't know why I'd want Odom when I've got Pierce and Jefferson at forward. It only makes sense if they plan to package Odom somewhere else. On the other hand, it has been widely reported that the Timberwolves are not excited about Bynum. Why would they take Bynum, Green, and a couple expiring contracts for KG? That doesn't sound like a great deal for them (given their ambivalence toward Bynum) unless there are more pieces, such as draft picks, involved.

Quote:
Elgin--Having lived outside of LA (in three entirely different regions of the country), I can tell you at least from a fanbase perspective, which IMO translates upwards into franchise management, that outside of the Laker fanbase, our guys are pretty much hated by everyone else.


That seems like a pretty dubious assumption. The fans of other teams have hated the Lakers for a long, long time.


So you don't think our FO pays any attention to grumblings being posted on LG?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: A Certain Plus-Sized Host: "The Lakers are quietly working on something big."

Dr. Laker wrote:
Out of boredom while travelling on business, I listened to a "certain plus-sized talk show host" over the internet last night on the Lakers' flagship station.

Anyway, the host was defending the Derek Fisher signing (which I'm against), but he was defending it in primarily in the context of "step one in a series of steps". Fish not being a solution in and of himself, but as a piece in a "grand plan."

The host then said that the Lakers ARE very much working on a huge deal (no names were dropped), but that after the team's recent lack of media discipline, they are playing it very close to the vest and keeping things quiet.

Now, I happen to feel that if the team is making a bunch of moves, the common sense approach is to make the biggest moves early, then make the small moves, because you have all of your assets at hand to close the most important part.

But it got me to thinking. The "Plus-sized Host" - who I cannot bear to listen to due to his incessant Kobe-bashing - used to have credibility with the Lakers (during the Jerry West regime) and may still have an inside line.

In any event - my question is: IF the Lakers are working on a secret, huge move, how likely are they to be successful?


I love the team and want them to win - even with a boob like Jimmy Buss in charge. Quite frankly, they haven't pulled off a major coup in trade in the Mitch Kupchak era. They salvaged Horace Grant in 2000 after blowing a couple golden opportunities that summer, but otherwise, it's been "Greg Foster for Lindsey Hunter" type moves. I just don't think they have the will, resolve or ability to get a major deal done.


I think the Lakers would do the Fisher move independent of anything else, but they may already have a "big move" agreed to in principle, thus the Fisher move could be "part" of something else--although I'd call it more just completing the offseason shopping list. You figure, Lakers' brass wants to come out of this off-season with: (1) a better team (for everyone, including Kobe); (2) a big name/superstar that appeases; (3) a veteran PG (or second guard, anyway, who will facilitate). From everything we've heard, any KG or JO trade will probably not bring back the desirable guard (we don't really want Hudson or Tinsley), so signing Fisher independently may "complete" that "part" of an overall offseason "plan." "Grand plan," sounds like the plus-sized guy is embellishing: I really doubt that FOs (Lakers or otherwise) throw that kind of terminology around to anyone.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:54 am    Post subject:

ElginBaylor wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
ElginBaylor wrote:
They also don't have the cooperation of anyone else in the league. When a team wins 3 titles in a row there is a general consensus among the other franchises that precede all trade logic.


I never really bought that one (well, maybe during the 80s). The Bulls were able to make moves (trade for Rodman, sign Harper, Kukoc, etc.). The Spurs won two of their 4 titles in 8 years by twice trading for starting centers (not MAJOR, but key).

Besides, we haven't won jack in 5 seasons - I don't think organizational hate has that kind of life.


Having lived outside of LA (in three entirely different regions of the country), I can tell you at least from a fanbase perspective, which IMO translates upwards into franchise management, that outside of the Laker fanbase, our guys are pretty much hated by everyone else. Much more so than the Bulls or San Antonio. People outside of La La Land percieve LA as phony glam and glitz while SA etc are saints who can play ball. Face it, the Lakers are the NY Yankees of basketball. And as I mentioned, teams like SA, Pheonix, etc. have been a) clever in the building process, b) lucky, and c) well, I can't think of a c.

Also, I think getting to the finals in 2004 is jack so I would modify that 5 seasons down to 3. Well within the lifespan of organizational hate. I know this has been brought up by myself and many others on this board time and time again but it is worth repeating. How long has it been since the Bulls have been to the finals? An even more drastic example is the Celtics. I don't think we're anywhere near going down that road, but then I'm pretty much an optimist which seems to be a minority position on LG.




I don't buy that argument either, and I've lived different regions of the country as well. Even the Spurs, Mavs, and Suns can find trading partners, and those teams are all annual championship contenders. The Rockets have a Yao and McGrady, and even they can find trading partners. We are further away from championship grade than any of those teams. The team that hates the Laker franchise the most, the Celtics, have even traded with the Lakers.

What you're talking about is fan message board fodder and sports bar talk. That isn't the same when you're a GM, with a career life expectancy of maybe 2 to 4 years. If you can do something to improve your team, you pull the trigger. The only caveat is not to build someone else into a dynasty, but the acid test of facilitating a trade that send KG to the Lakers... well that doesn't make LA a dynasty. It only makes them a contender.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject:

In some other threads that discuss the same trade, it shows the Lakers getting Blount as well as KG.

But....

I have been hearing reports of a "big trade" coming along for a while now. Seems every offseason, every trade deadline, the Lakers are involved in a big trade and nothing comes of it.

And whenever there are reports of a trade coming from unverified sources, people get all up in arms because it did not go through.

I think we will have the same thing here. People will get mad that so-and-so a trade did not happen, and blame Mitch for something that was never ever really in discussion.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:05 am    Post subject:

As long as it wasn't one of Joe's goofy teasers to lure people to the show, it might have some credibility.

I have to believe either Farmar or Crittenton is involved though. Even Mitch, in his obtuse MLE meanderings can't possibly have plans to run both of them out there with D. Fish this year.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject:

Working on and actually accomplishing it are two different things. Hopefully if it's the rumored KG deal, that happens. But as someone stated above, there are some credibility issues with those rumors.

I still think when it's all said and done - come training camp - the 95% rule will win out.

Kobe will still be a Laker.
KG will still be a Pup.
JO will still be a Pacer.

All 3 team's will tell themselves that they can win around their star and make the playoffs. Come trade deadline, the teams that are out of the playoffs will most likely deal for what at this point they are unwilling to deal. That's ussually how it works.

Same thing happened with Iverson last offseason and he didn't get dealt until it was obvious the team was not making the playoffs with him the following season after their poor start.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:23 am    Post subject:

RYZ wrote:
As long as it wasn't one of Joe's goofy teasers to lure people to the show, it might have some credibility.

I have to believe either Farmar or Crittenton is involved though. Even Mitch, in his obtuse MLE meanderings can't possibly have plans to run both of them out there with D. Fish this year.


Oh, god--you named "He Who Must Not be Named!"
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: A Certain Plus-Sized Host: "The Lakers are quietly working on something big."

[quote="Dr. Laker"IF the Lakers are working on a secret, huge move, how likely are they to be successful?.[/quote]

I can tell you with absolutel certainty if the Lakers are working on a hush-hush deal, it will either a. happen or b. won't happen.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:27 am    Post subject:

It's wishful thinking, because no one knows.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:30 am    Post subject:

Moves must be made behind the scenes. Nearly every time a move becomes public and negotiations proceed in public the deal gets killed by public outcry. It's got a much better chance of success if it is done in private. If the Lakers want to move one of the valued young guards, it makes sense to have Derek Fisher on the roster. Who knows how strange a trade it might be.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:30 am    Post subject:

ElginBaylor wrote:
They also don't have the cooperation of anyone else in the league. When a team wins 3 titles in a row there is a general consensus among the other franchises that precede all trade logic. Bring the champs down and keep 'em down.


I'd go a step or two further ... this is especially true considering it's the Lakers. It's not just just a champs thing ... people will still deal with San Antonio and Detroit. It's not just an LA thing ... people will still deal with the Clips.

That's what most of it is and nothing less. Just look at all the FA's since the 2000 title that simply have to mention the idea that they're interested in playing in LA and then days later get the deal they were hoping for all along from their team or orchestrated through their team in a sign-and-trade deal.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: A Certain Plus-Sized Host: "The Lakers are quietly working on something big."

Dr. Laker wrote:
Now, I happen to feel that if the team is making a bunch of moves, the common sense approach is to make the biggest moves early, then make the small moves, because you have all of your assets at hand to close the most important part..


I doubt the team is going to make "a bunch of moves." If we trade for Garnett, that will pretty much wipe out our tradeable assets. Other than signing Fisher, I doubt see us doing much but signing whoever we can get for the vet's minimum.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:33 am    Post subject:

Quote:
So you don't think our FO pays any attention to grumblings being posted on LG?


That's not what you said. You said that fan hatred of other teams spreads up to management. I'm sure that the Laker front office pays attention to grumblings by Laker fans, whether on LG or elsewhere. However, I seriously doubt that the Laker front office cares whether we hate another team. Likewise, I seriously doubt that trade decisions by other teams are influenced by the fact that many fans of those teams hate the Lakers.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: A Certain Plus-Sized Host: "The Lakers are quietly working on something big."

Darkndeep wrote:


I think the Lakers would do the Fisher move independent of anything else, but they may already have a "big move" agreed to in principle, thus the Fisher move could be "part" of something else--although I'd call it more just completing the offseason shopping list. You figure, Lakers' brass wants to come out of this off-season with: (1) a better team (for everyone, including Kobe); (2) a big name/superstar that appeases; (3) a veteran PG (or second guard, anyway, who will facilitate). From everything we've heard, any KG or JO trade will probably not bring back the desirable guard (we don't really want Hudson or Tinsley), so signing Fisher independently may "complete" that "part" of an overall offseason "plan." "Grand plan," sounds like the plus-sized guy is embellishing: I really doubt that FOs (Lakers or otherwise) throw that kind of terminology around to anyone.


The Fisher signing was something a colleague and I were debating earlier in the week. The general concensus was that The likely treatment facility for his daughter was going to be Mayo affilliated and the three Mayo Retinal research and treatment facilities are located in Phoenix, Jacksonville, and Rochester Minnesota. The Phoenix facility is almost close enough to LA to see him commit to endless short flights back and forth, but Rochester would be a much more convenient option if he were in Minny. While certainly quite far fetched, it is nonetheless conceivable that Fishers surprisingly high salary, and quick deal, might have solved some salary exchange issues in potential negotiations. Fisher would be a decent fit in Minny's rebuild mode, and one which would have an appetizing "salary/productivity" expiration date as well. I don't think anything that clever is afoot, but the possibility does beget intrigue.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: A Certain Plus-Sized Host: "The Lakers are quietly working on something big."

activeverb wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Now, I happen to feel that if the team is making a bunch of moves, the common sense approach is to make the biggest moves early, then make the small moves, because you have all of your assets at hand to close the most important part..


I doubt the team is going to make "a bunch of moves." If we trade for Garnett, that will pretty much wipe out our tradeable assets. Other than signing Fisher, I doubt see us doing much but signing whoever we can get for the vet's minimum.


There's possibly, possibly, still the Artest "move." At least, I keep seeing that we're offering Vlad and Farmar for him, although Sacramento supposedly wants Kwame and a first rounder. If Sacramento would relent (if they want to dump Artest, there does not seem to be much else offered for him), or we compromised and threw in a draft pick with Vlad and Farmar, we could still do an Artest deal--although I'm not sure how he and Luke would fit together (maybe one the sixth man extraordinaire off the bench?).
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: A Certain Plus-Sized Host: "The Lakers are quietly working on something big."

Aussiesuede wrote:
Darkndeep wrote:


I think the Lakers would do the Fisher move independent of anything else, but they may already have a "big move" agreed to in principle, thus the Fisher move could be "part" of something else--although I'd call it more just completing the offseason shopping list. You figure, Lakers' brass wants to come out of this off-season with: (1) a better team (for everyone, including Kobe); (2) a big name/superstar that appeases; (3) a veteran PG (or second guard, anyway, who will facilitate). From everything we've heard, any KG or JO trade will probably not bring back the desirable guard (we don't really want Hudson or Tinsley), so signing Fisher independently may "complete" that "part" of an overall offseason "plan." "Grand plan," sounds like the plus-sized guy is embellishing: I really doubt that FOs (Lakers or otherwise) throw that kind of terminology around to anyone.


The Fisher signing was something a colleague and I were debating earlier in the week. The general concensus was that The likely treatment facility for his daughter was going to be Mayo affilliated and the three Mayo Retinal research and treatment facilities are located in Phoenix, Jacksonville, and Rochester Minnesota. The Phoenix facility is almost close enough to LA to see him commit to endless short flights back and forth, but Rochester would be a much more convenient option if he were in Minny. While certainly quite far fetched, it is nonetheless conceivable that Fishers surprisingly high salary, and quick deal, might have solved some salary exchange issues in potential negotiations. Fisher would be a decent fit in Minny's rebuild mode, and one which would have an appetizing "salary/productivity" expiration date as well. I don't think anything that clever is afoot, but the possibility does beget intrigue.


That is interesting. I didn't realize that about the Mayo facility in Minnesota. I guess I'm hung up on Minnesota paying that kind of money for Fisher, though: we're overpaying, but he's a particularly nice fit for us right now that maybe makes the extra bucks worthwhile; he doesn't give the same extra "value" to Minnesota.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Quote:
So you don't think our FO pays any attention to grumblings being posted on LG?


That's not what you said. You said that fan hatred of other teams spreads up to management. I'm sure that the Laker front office pays attention to grumblings by Laker fans, whether on LG or elsewhere. However, I seriously doubt that the Laker front office cares whether we hate another team. Likewise, I seriously doubt that trade decisions by other teams are influenced by the fact that many fans of those teams hate the Lakers.


If a team's fanbase is unhappy, (and if a GM made a trade that put the Lakers into the finals, this would certainly be true), then that translates into ticket sales. I'll use the Pacers for an example (as I've never lived in Minnesota). If the Pacers trade JO to the Lakers and consequently the Lakers gel with JO playing a major roll in their success, while the Pacers go into a free fall, Conseco field house will turn into a mausoleum (as if it isn't close to that already). The salt in the wound for Bird and the Pacer organization will be that he was the one directly responsible for elevating his arch rival back into elite status. Mind you, I'm not saying that making a deal for JO will have that kind of impact for us (although it may), I'm just laying out one scenario to clarify my stance.

(BTW: My comment about the Laker FO directing the franchise based on what they pick up from LG was more or less toungue in cheek.)
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