"Anybody would love to play with Kobe," - Carmelo
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Tony Almeida
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject:

dmills wrote:

I feel you on that. But for the sake of conversation lets avoid that kind of conjecture. we don't know what would happen if who played on what team with whatever players.


Point taken.


Last edited by Tony Almeida on Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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melo061
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:38 pm    Post subject:

Yep, those good old real laker fans who have no biases. I want to be like OCHO and wolfpacker!!

Onto other things, it's hilarious kobe is being blamed for Odom's play. Lamar has shown he can play well with kobe dominating the ball. So why cant he continue playing well? Ask lamar. He is the one to blame because he has shown us he can play agressive as well as kobe hoisting up 25+ shots,

Look at his


Lamar against Memphis (Bryant drops 60, takes 37 shots) 20-15-3
Lamar against Minny (Bryant drops 50, 37 shots) 16-9-8
Lamar against GS (Bryant drops 43, takes 33 shots) 24-19-4
Lamar against rockets (Bryant takes 44 shots) 16-17-4

Just a few examples of Odom showing agressiveness when bryant is uber agressive. Just because it's hard doesn't make it an excuse for him to wonder off on the perimeter for minutes on end. Kobe finds it hard to play a team yet yet he was doing that perfectly during the first half of the season when the team was rolling. Lamar finds it hard to be agressive, ok. Just don't blame kobe.

I don't Phil for kobe gambling, taking bad shots and the rest of it. It's not fair to blame Kobe for his own faults as well as others.

I mean, when Kobe has a bad game it's because he was being too ball dominant and taking crappy shots. When Lamar has a bad game it's because kobe didn't get him the ball. Hilarious and beyond belief
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kobe_somebody_odom
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:13 pm    Post subject:

melo061 wrote:
Yep, those good old real laker fans who have no biases. I want to be like OCHO and wolfpacker!!

Onto other things, it's hilarious kobe is being blamed for Odom's play. Lamar has shown he can play well with kobe dominating the ball. So why cant he continue playing well? Ask lamar. He is the one to blame because he has shown us he can play agressive as well as kobe hoisting up 25+ shots,

Look at his


Lamar against Memphis (Bryant drops 60, takes 37 shots) 20-15-3
Lamar against Minny (Bryant drops 50, 37 shots) 16-9-8
Lamar against GS (Bryant drops 43, takes 33 shots) 24-19-4
Lamar against rockets (Bryant takes 44 shots) 16-17-4

Just a few examples of Odom showing agressiveness when bryant is uber agressive. Just because it's hard doesn't make it an excuse for him to wonder off on the perimeter for minutes on end. Kobe finds it hard to play a team yet yet he was doing that perfectly during the first half of the season when the team was rolling. Lamar finds it hard to be agressive, ok. Just don't blame kobe.

I don't Phil for kobe gambling, taking bad shots and the rest of it. It's not fair to blame Kobe for his own faults as well as others.

I mean, when Kobe has a bad game it's because he was being too ball dominant and taking crappy shots. When Lamar has a bad game it's because kobe didn't get him the ball. Hilarious and beyond belief


No player outside of Shaq will win with Kobe if he plays like this. Far too many times, he took 30-35+ shots and it was unnecessary. I like scoring, but how many times is Kobe completely cold. I mean Kobe can do no wrong, and the rest of the team is always to blame. The best player in the league goes cold for weeks at a time.

Lebron, Nash, Duncan, Wade would take the Lakers further than they went. Kobe is arguably the best, depending on where you have Duncan and Lebron, but I would never choose Kobe first out of all NBA players to build a team. I would choose, Wade, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett, and Nash ahead of him to build a team.


Lamar is an underachiever, but not by much. He was a projected 20/10/6 guy. 16/10/5 is not really underachieving. He can average 20/10/5 on a team as 1st option. If he had GOAT potential, he would have been drafted #1 or 2
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melo061
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:22 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
No player outside of Shaq will win with Kobe if he plays like this. Far too many times, he took 30-35+ shots and it was unnecessary. I like scoring, but how many times is Kobe completely cold. I mean Kobe can do no wrong, and the rest of the team is always to blame. The best player in the league goes cold for weeks at a time.



I agree, bryant at times hoists many unnessary shots but that game wasn't the case. He was the reason why the lakers came back hitting huge shots in the 4th and OT. The lakers needed a lift and and bryant gave them that lift getting the game to ot.
Quote:

Lebron, Nash, Duncan, Wade would take the Lakers further than they went. Kobe is arguably the best, depending on where you have Duncan and Lebron, but I would never choose Kobe first out of all NBA players to build a team. I would choose, Wade, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett, and Nash ahead of him to build a team.


Speculation. When Phil jackson can't win a game with his vaunted triangle and needs to turn to you to win games you know you are a bad.
Quote:

Lamar is an underachiever, but not by much. He was a projected 20/10/6 guy. 16/10/5 is not really underachieving. He can average 20/10/5 on a team as 1st option. If he had GOAT potential, he would have been drafted #1 or 2


He can average 18/10/5 or even better than that if he wanted to. Lamar doesn't want to get better.
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tw-lakbfan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:30 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
I know for a fact my boy Caron Butler was talking about how hard it is to play with Kobe in an interview his first season in Washington.

Said that he felt for Lamar, because he knew Lamar's true talent and that with Kobe it was hard for him to showcase his talent.

Now this is Kobe's buddy saying that.



Quote to the Caron felt for Larmar part? Don't make up stuff again.

As I remember, Caron this season said that some players (implying those who don't want to work hard) might not want to play with Kobe, but he loved playing with Kobe and to be made better for that.

Anyone playing with another dominant scorer will have have to sacrifice part of his game to adjust to each other. Kobe did that playing with Shaq too.
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OregonLakerGuy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:57 pm    Post subject:

kobe_somebody_odom wrote:

No player outside of Shaq will win with Kobe if he plays like this. Far too many times, he took 30-35+ shots and it was unnecessary. I like scoring, but how many times is Kobe completely cold. I mean Kobe can do no wrong, and the rest of the team is always to blame. The best player in the league goes cold for weeks at a time.


This is nothing but hyperbole. Name the weeks at a time that he was cold.

Quote:

Lebron, Nash, Duncan, Wade would take the Lakers further than they went. Kobe is arguably the best, depending on where you have Duncan and Lebron, but I would never choose Kobe first out of all NBA players to build a team. I would choose, Wade, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett, and Nash ahead of him to build a team.


Hype again. Where does an opinion like this come from?
Because Nash, Lebron and Garnett have so many rings? Of your list I might agree with Duncan. Maybe.

Quote:

Lamar is an underachiever, but not by much. He was a projected 20/10/6 guy. 16/10/5 is not really underachieving. He can average 20/10/5 on a team as 1st option. If he had GOAT potential, he would have been drafted #1 or 2


Forgive my ignorance, but please explain what draft position has to do with any of that.
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lakers0505
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:03 am    Post subject:

OregonLakerGuy wrote:
kobe_somebody_odom wrote:

No player outside of Shaq will win with Kobe if he plays like this. Far too many times, he took 30-35+ shots and it was unnecessary. I like scoring, but how many times is Kobe completely cold. I mean Kobe can do no wrong, and the rest of the team is always to blame. The best player in the league goes cold for weeks at a time.


This is nothing but hyperbole. Name the weeks at a time that he was cold.

Quote:

Lebron, Nash, Duncan, Wade would take the Lakers further than they went. Kobe is arguably the best, depending on where you have Duncan and Lebron, but I would never choose Kobe first out of all NBA players to build a team. I would choose, Wade, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett, and Nash ahead of him to build a team.


Hype again. Where does an opinion like this come from?
Because Nash, Lebron and Garnett have so many rings? Of your list I might agree with Duncan. Maybe.

Quote:

Lamar is an underachiever, but not by much. He was a projected 20/10/6 guy. 16/10/5 is not really underachieving. He can average 20/10/5 on a team as 1st option. If he had GOAT potential, he would have been drafted #1 or 2


Forgive my ignorance, but please explain what draft position has to do with any of that.


After reading those lines, this poster is clearly sees what we do not, i can not begin to reply to him.

Lebron, Nash, Duncan, Wade would take the Lakers further than they went

on all but duncan, even that ide have to think about.

If he had GOAT potential, he would have been drafted #1 or 2[/quote]

Yes draft position means everything people.
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tw-lakbfan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:15 am    Post subject:

Mongo wrote:
[quote="Jordan-esque]Btw... to play Devils Devils Advocate to NBAFan07, guys like Caron Butler have said good things about Kobe as his teammate.


As have Mark Madsen, Derek Fischer, John Salley...[/quote]
So does Horry. He said Kobe was a good teammate and people misunderstood Kobe.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:15 am    Post subject:

I'd prefer to play with Nash or Kidd, for obvious reasons, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to play with Kobe. The players who absolutely don't want to play with Kobe are either players who play the same position as him (i.e. jealous) or players who are all about themselves. Kobe offers a teammate not only easier shots, but also a better chance at a ring.

Bottom line though is that money rules all. An NBA player will play with anyone if the money is right. That is somewhat different though from wanting to play with someone rather than simply tolerating playing with someone. I think those who most want to play with Kobe share his competitive streak.
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dmills
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:32 am    Post subject:

Quote:
No player outside of Shaq will win with Kobe if he plays like this. Far too many times, he took 30-35+ shots and it was unnecessary. I like scoring, but how many times is Kobe completely cold. I mean Kobe can do no wrong, and the rest of the team is always to blame. The best player in the league goes cold for weeks at a time.

Lebron, Nash, Duncan, Wade would take the Lakers further than they went. Kobe is arguably the best, depending on where you have Duncan and Lebron, but I would never choose Kobe first out of all NBA players to build a team. I would choose, Wade, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett, and Nash ahead of him to build a team.


Is this a joke or what? I'm waiting for the punchline. Based on what exactly? Duncan I will gladly give you. But you can keep Wade, LeBron, Nash and Garnett.

Wade couldn't even keep the Heat above .500 while Shaq was out and his team plays in arguably the worst division in the EAST!

The T wolves talent wise have a comparable roster to the Lakers and Garnett hasn't sniffed the playoffs in 3 years.

LeBron is a joke in Crunch time. His team finished with 50 wins in the East and got the 2 seed. In the west 50-32 would have put them ahead of Denver for the 6th seed and a first round match up with... The Spurs. We all know how that one turned out.

Nash is a great player, but all he has shown so far is that he can lead a team to a great regular season record ala Sacramento from 5 years ago.

Duncan is the man. I won't even ATTEMPT to argue against that. But you can have the rest of those guys.
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PushingtheLimit
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:44 am    Post subject:

Mostwanted wrote:
When will people stop making excuses for Lamar Odom and just acknolwege him for what he is?

A player that entered the leauge with all of the tools to be one of the best of all-time but a weak mental approach to the game and poor work habits have left him at an 'almost all-star level' as opposed to an all-nba/HOF level.

Caron feels sorry for Odom because he knows 'Odom's true talent' and it will be hard for him to showcase with Kobe'.

Was Kobe with Lamar in Clipper land? Of course Odom's continued underachievment in Clipper land wasn't his fault. The Clipper's held him back. Great all around numbers but should have been so much better.

Was Kobe with Lamar in Heat land when again he falied to break out and be considered one of the best players in the game despite being the most talented player on that team. (a team that inlcuded Wade)

Now Mr. Potential comes to LA and he still fails to break out. Of course it is again someone elses fault. This time its Kobe's turn.

Never mind that Odom's best stretch of his professional career came along side Kobe Bryant. (Odom's words not mine). His play the last half of last season and into the playoffs was phenominal. Routinely putting up 18-20 points, grabbing 9-10 boards, and handing out 5-7 assists. All while shooting over 50% from the field and damn near the same % from three.

But even more than the stats he was impacting the game and finally showing himself to be a true second option. Also factor in that Odom has set career highs in PER, EFF, assists (not counting that season in which he played 20 or so games), FG%, 3PT%, and wins in a season playing next to Kobe. The guy that prevents him from shining.

And then the inconsistency (don't care what you blame it own. Be it injury, diminshed skill, off the court disctaction, mental issues etc. point is that it happend again) back in.

The story of Odom's career and he has no one to blame but himself.

The only all-star that Kobe (not counting the NVE, JOnes years as he wasn't a regualr starter himself then) has played with is Shaq. And despite all of the upps and downs those 2 had off the court on the court they balled out. And that's because they are great players. Great players do what they do.

Odom is not a great player and nor will he ever be.

Doesn't matter what team he goes to or whom he plays with. He will always be (unless he finally takes an off-season to actually work hard on his game and to improve his weaknesses as a player) the 15-17 point 8-10 rebound 4-5 assists.

Not that those numbers are bad. They are good. numbers But ODom has the physical abilty to impact the game statistically and on the court to a higher degree.

If and when Odom and Kobe part ways I will be anxious to see whom or what becomes the new excuse for Odom's under-achievment.


Everyone needs to read this. Twice.
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Raptor2k
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:26 am    Post subject:

kobe_somebody_odom wrote:


No player outside of Shaq will win with Kobe if he plays like this. Far too many times, he took 30-35+ shots and it was unnecessary. I like scoring, but how many times is Kobe completely cold. I mean Kobe can do no wrong, and the rest of the team is always to blame. The best player in the league goes cold for weeks at a time.


Next time, try watching the games. Yes, Kobe occassionally goes cold, he can't always be hot. But at least he has the balls and the confidence to be putting up some shots, while the Sashas and Lukes keep bricking and the Smushs and the Cooks keep whining when the guys they're guarding have career nights. Kobe focused on taking less shots, especially early this season, but when the team started to decline he didn't have much of a choice but to try to go on scoring binges agian.[/quote]

Lebron, Nash, Duncan, Wade would take the Lakers further than they
went.
Kobe is arguably the best, depending on where you have Duncan and Lebron, but I would never choose Kobe first out of all NBA players to build a team. I would choose, Wade, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett, and Nash ahead of him to build a team.
[/quote]

How much longer are you going to spread this BS? For the second time (since your abomination of a post in the 'JO' thread), only Duncan's inside presence could possibly take this Laker team furthur, maybe by one or two games, than what Kobe can when this roster. When are you going to give this up? When Kobe gets consistent, NBA-ready teammates perhaps?

Unbelievable how even 'laker fans' try to spin something so simple the wrong way.
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Mongo
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:14 am    Post subject:

kobe_somebody_odom wrote:
If he had GOAT potential, he would have been drafted #1 or 2


Just like Michael Jordan was drafted 1 or 2....oops
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PassiontoWin
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:26 am    Post subject:

How is this kobe somebody odom guy still able to post on here?...mods look at all his posts, It's all trolling/Kobe hating. Pure ignorance. :roll:
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject:

@ all the panties in wads here over my post. Classic !

Caron did say that and it's a fact, you can spin Caron into a nobody loser that puts up stats.

But let me spin this for you.

Kobe Bryant's team since big fatty left.

34 wins
45 wins
42 wins

Great stats. Mediocre team. Is he an overrated stat guy too based on the last 3 years too?

I wouldn't think so and calling Caron a stat guy when he's a proven all-star in the east is sad. Caron is a good talent. Lamar is a very good talent. Shaq was a GREAT talent. All 3 have had issues playing alongside Kobe Bean Bryant. Does that mean Kobe can not be played alongside? Nope. Never said that. However it is tougher to play around a superstar like Kobe. This is a very real issue and has been for a long time.

Deal with it. Bring up names of players that have all-star or more talent that haven't played with Kobe and I bring up the guys that actually have.

And ofcourse now some will say that Shaq, LO and Caron have no talent or spin it into them doing something wrong on the court. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Must've dreamt how Lamar had no problems in Miami with Wade and Shaq won a 4th ring with him. Some guys just have issues with using their teammates to their best interests and Kobe is one of them. It isn't the end of the world to admit that.
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Jeffs
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:04 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
@ all the panties in wads here over my post. Classic !

Caron did say that and it's a fact, you can spin Caron into a nobody loser that puts up stats.

But let me spin this for you.

Kobe Bryant's team since big fatty left.

34 wins
45 wins
42 wins

Great stats. Mediocre team. Is he an overrated stat guy too based on the last 3 years too?

I wouldn't think so and calling Caron a stat guy when he's a proven all-star in the east is sad. Caron is a good talent. Lamar is a very good talent. Shaq was a GREAT talent. All 3 have had issues playing alongside Kobe Bean Bryant. Does that mean Kobe can not be played alongside? Nope. Never said that. However it is tougher to play around a superstar like Kobe. This is a very real issue and has been for a long time.

Deal with it. Bring up names of players that have all-star or more talent that haven't played with Kobe and I bring up the guys that actually have.

And ofcourse now some will say that Shaq, LO and Caron have no talent or spin it into them doing something wrong on the court. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Must've dreamt how Lamar had no problems in Miami with Wade and Shaq won a 4th ring with him. Some guys just have issues with using their teammates to their best interests and Kobe is one of them. It isn't the end of the world to admit that.


Wolf, you've really turned into an actual hater. It's pretty freaking pitiful. I used to actually enjoy your posts.

Yes, Kobe's teams have struggled since Shaq left. I wouldn't blame that on Kobe. I would blame that on the complete lack of talent on the team. When you have Chucky Atkins or Smush Parker as your starting PG for three seasons, and Kwame Brown as your starting center for the better part of two seasons, you're going to have some problems.

Now, on to the 'all stars' Kobe has played with.

Shaq? I didn't see too many problems on the court while they were winning championships. Their problems were solely off the court, which has nothing to do with how they play and everything to do with their personalities. Both men made mistakes, no doubt, but I don't think Shaq can be used as an example of why players would not want to play with Kobe. They did win three rings together, after all.

Butler? He loved Kobe. No idea where your quote is from, but I'd love if you'd provide it. They were great friends, and even worked out together in the offseason. After having an injury-plague and very poor second season in the league, Caron bounced back with Kobe and the Lakers.

Odom? As has been pointed out several times, he has never truly "gotten it." He has been an underachiever for his entire career, showing glimpses of greatness mired in inconsistency. How exactly can you blame Kobe for his lack of production at times? Keep in mind that, during his 8 year career, his three best FG% years have come with Kobe. Further, last I checked, Odom has nothing but great things to say about Kobe. Of course, now you'll infer that it's just PR. :roll:

Spin away, buddy.
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targetman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:07 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
@ all the panties in wads here over my post. Classic !

Caron did say that and it's a fact, you can spin Caron into a nobody loser that puts up stats.

But let me spin this for you.

Kobe Bryant's team since big fatty left.

34 wins
45 wins
42 wins

Now what happened to the original argument? Once again it has been morphed so posters can get one last shot in. Reminder, the original discussion was about who would or would not want to play with Kobe. If you want to slam, please provide actual quotes about that topic. And no, they can't all come from Shaq.

Great stats. Mediocre team. Is he an overrated stat guy too based on the last 3 years too?

I wouldn't think so and calling Caron a stat guy when he's a proven all-star in the east is sad. Caron is a good talent. Lamar is a very good talent. Shaq was a GREAT talent. All 3 have had issues playing alongside Kobe Bean Bryant. Does that mean Kobe can not be played alongside? Nope. Never said that. However it is tougher to play around a superstar like Kobe. This is a very real issue and has been for a long time.

Deal with it. Bring up names of players that have all-star or more talent that haven't played with Kobe and I bring up the guys that actually have.

And ofcourse now some will say that Shaq, LO and Caron have no talent or spin it into them doing something wrong on the court. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Must've dreamt how Lamar had no problems in Miami with Wade and Shaq won a 4th ring with him. Some guys just have issues with using their teammates to their best interests and Kobe is one of them. It isn't the end of the world to admit that.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:17 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Wolf, you've really turned into an actual hater. It's pretty freaking pitiful. I used to actually enjoy your posts

Boo hoo. Cry me a river. Sorry I don't fit your must defend Kobe and promote him as perfect model, anymore.

Quote:
Yes, Kobe's teams have struggled since Shaq left. I wouldn't blame that on Kobe. I would blame that on the complete lack of talent on the team. When you have Chucky Atkins or Smush Parker as your starting PG for three seasons, and Kwame Brown as your starting center for the better part of two seasons, you're going to have some problems.

Did I blame him?

Read Jeffs, Read. You are so into the must take on the Kobe haters, that you don't even read what someone who is talking about Kobe in a non-perfect manner is saying.

What I said or meant to imply is that it is unfair to call Caron a stat guy or overrated because he is putting up numbers on a bad team because Kobe is doing the same. Caron was drafted in the lottery, compared to Paul Pierce coming out and had star potential. My point was don't be suprised or underhand Caron as a player. He is a good talent. 20/6/3/2 is his ability. Just like 30/6/5 is Kobe's ability.

Quote:
Shaq? I didn't see too many problems on the court while they were winning championships. Their problems were solely off the court, which has nothing to do with how they play and everything to do with their personalities. Both men made mistakes, no doubt, but I don't think Shaq can be used as an example of why players would not want to play with Kobe. They did win three rings together, after all.

Shaq's big issues with Kobe off the court, started in large part because of his disdain for how Kobe played on the court.

See that or not, it is up to you. Shaq didn't just blast Kobe for all his personal reasons. Some of it were, absolutely. But the root of Shaq's issue with Kobe was still the play on the court.

And no I don't blame Kobe for Shaq being upset, that is as much Shaq as it is Kobe, but there was an on the court issue too.

Quote:
Butler? He loved Kobe. No idea where your quote is from, but I'd love if you'd provide it. They were great friends, and even worked out together in the offseason. After having an injury-plague and very poor second season in the league, Caron bounced back with Kobe and the Lakers

It was posted on LG and I read it. An interview. It was talking about LO's struggles and how it is like playing with Kobe. Caron ofcourse said that Kobe was the best player in the NBA, but that he also knew LO's talent and abilities. He also said that for guys like them playing with a guy like Kobe can be tough. However he never said that he wouldn't play with Kobe, nor did I imply he did. Same with LO, he has never said he wouldn't play with Kobe, either.

Infact my point isn't that guys won't play with Kobe if put in that situation. However from a FA standpoint, if they can play with Kobe or be in a situation with an all-star that is more fitting to their game, they'll choose the latter because it is an easier adjustment.

That hard to accept that Kobe isn't easy to play with because he dominates the game so much?

Quote:
Odom? As has been pointed out several times, he has never truly "gotten it." He has been an underachiever for his entire career, showing glimpses of greatness mired in inconsistency. How exactly can you blame Kobe for his lack of production at times? Keep in mind that, during his 8 year career, his three best FG% years have come with Kobe. Further, last I checked, Odom has nothing but great things to say about Kobe. Of course, now you'll infer that it's just PR

You suffer from a bad disease that is rampant on Laker boards. It is defend Kobe to every non-admiring post. I have not said most of the things you brought up in this post.

This is exactly why noone without a perfect opinion on Kobe likes to post here or in these sort of threads. They get totally turned into something else.

Thankfully for entertainment purposes and me having a thick skin, I will continue to chime away (and ofcourse be misunderstood).
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Mostwanted
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:23 am    Post subject:

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I wouldn't think so and calling Caron a stat guy when he's a proven all-star in the east is sad. Caron is a good talent. Lamar is a very good talent. Shaq was a GREAT talent. All 3 have had issues playing alongside Kobe Bean Bryant. Does that mean Kobe can not be played alongside? Nope. Never said that. However it is tougher to play around a superstar like Kobe. This is a very real issue and has been for a long time.


Certain players games mesh and certain players games don't mesh.

You can't pair a Shaq with another down post player player. See a guy like Elden Campbell for a proven instance.

You can't pair Kobe with a guy like Allen Iverson (unless one or both tone down there games) as there games are very similiar

You can't pair a Steve Francis with a Marbury. Both are ball dominant guards.

You can't pair a Larry Hughes (ball dominant) with a Lebron James (ball dominant). Hughes was a 20 point 5 assist guy before Lebron and now he looks completely lost on the court with him.

To again reiterate, Lamar Odom next to KObe has played the best basketball of his career. (his words and the stats show that). He has set numerous career highs next to Kobe.

So to say that Odom had 'no problems' in Miami makes no sense. As it has been stated (by him) that he has been at his best in his 'post Miami' stop in LA.

Now has he reached his full potential next to Kobe? No. Is that KObe's fault? No. It's Odom's because he doesn't have a killer instict or a consistent work ethic.

It's why 9 years into his career his still doesn't have a consistent perimter jump shot. A consistent mid range game. A consistent goto move in the post. No right hand.

While guys that came into the game after him Dwayne Wade and Caron Butler, that are overall less talented than him, have surpassed him because of hard work and sacrifice in the off-season.

Sorry that the reality of the situation.

As Caron also said, the players that have Kobe's similiar mind set (hard work is key) are the players that will primarily gravitate towards him and play well with him. Which is why you see Kobe do well in these all-starish/Team USA type of situations. Because the hard workers are primarily the ones that make these engagements.

I'd also like to point out when Odom went down with another one of his month and a half long injuries and Caron Butler became the undisputed second option for the last 20 or so games of that disaterous season he played spectacular next to Kobe. Yeah they were losing but his averages were around 20 7 and 3 on over 50% shooting.

Very close to what he is putting up now.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:32 am    Post subject:

Quote:
This is exactly why noone without a perfect opinion on Kobe likes to post here or in these sort of threads. They get totally turned into something else.


Actually, it's because it's either one side of the story or the other. Nothing truly objective that weighs both sides relatively equal.

I purposely try to avoid your posts, especially this previous year.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:41 am    Post subject:

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That hard to accept that Kobe isn't easy to play with because he dominates the game so much?


I don't doubt that Caron made that statement but the thing that's hard to accept for me is that Caron now plays next to a player with a very similar approach to the game in Gilbert Arenas. I'm inclined to think that what Caron really meant is that it's hard to play on a team with 3 guys who need the ball to be effective when you include Odom. As Mostwanted pointed out, Caron played well when it was just him and Kobe. Whatever statement he made in that interview was more like a half-truth. A Laker team with Kobe, Caron, and Shawn Marion would be closer to what they have in Washington with Gilbert, Caron, and Jamison.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject:

Wolf -

I'll stop asking you for proof of this phantom interview; I honestly don't remember Caron saying what you claim he did - nothing personal. If someone can find the interview in question so that we can see what was really said, that'd be great. My personal hunch is that Wolf has spun the contents of the interview to aid in his argument, and that Caron did not say (or, in context, mean) what Wolf claims he did. Just my opinion based on other evidence, though.

Now, since you're claiming you didn't say what I replied to, how about I reply to what you did say...

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But IMO 9 out of 10 all-stars would be better off playing with Nash than Kobe. Simply put, Nash will make sure you put up the all-star numbers and shots you had before hand. Kobe will make sure you are a part of the process, but it will not be natural .. somewhat forced. Being a team player and making the one's around you do their thing is and never has been Kobe's strength. It has and probably always will be his biggest weakness.


Go figure. Kobe's greatest strength, being a wing/shooting guard, has always been to score. Hold the press!

Nash is a point guard. IT IS HIS JOB to get you the shots that you need. In the Phoenix system, it is all the easier, as they play such a high octane offense that there are more than enough shots to go around. Of course, Nash wouldn't be as good as he is without two perennial all-stars and the sixth man of the year running with him on the fast break. :roll:

Kobe's job, on the other hand, is to score. Sure, he'll create to the tune of 5-6 assists a game, but that's all that he should really have to do. It's unfortunate that the Lakers haven't had a real point guard in years, and that the duty of 'getting others involved' has fallen on Kobe in people's eyes. In any case, he does try to get his teammates involved, but it doesn't always work out. It must be pretty frustrating to pass Lamar the ball and have him just swing it to Sasha Vujacic, or keep it on the perimeter and take a 25 footer instead of taking it to the hole. That's not Kobe's fault.

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However almost all the players who have had any talent that is all-star caliber in the last few years that we have had, seem to have issues in maxamizing themself with Kobe.


Lamar, if you use his past stats as an example, has "maximized" himself with Kobe. Can he improve? Hell yes. However, it isn't fair to fault Kobe for Lamar's lack of worth ethic and improvement from year to year. Lamar is lazy, and as such will likely never be as good as he should be. Lamar is just as good, if not better, with Kobe than he was before he got here.

Caron Butler had his best year as a pro (at that point) with Kobe. He has improved since then, but that is just natural progression, as well as a greater role in his new team's offense. He certainly did not regress once he was teamed with Kobe.

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Shaq's big issues with Kobe off the court, started in large part because of his disdain for how Kobe played on the court.

See that or not, it is up to you. Shaq didn't just blast Kobe for all his personal reasons. Some of it were, absolutely. But the root of Shaq's issue with Kobe was still the play on the court.

And no I don't blame Kobe for Shaq being upset, that is as much Shaq as it is Kobe, but there was an on the court issue too.


See, I think we'll have to just agree to disagree here. Shaq was mad that the new kid was playing in his sandbox at first, but he got over it once they started winning. He would have been happy going on and winning (and getting paid) with Kobe if nothing else had happened between them.

However, they constantly had personal issues between them. Kobe was upset that Shaq was such a lazy bum, and Shaq didn't think that his offseason was any of Kobe's business, since the Lakers were winning anyway. Then the rape case happened, and Kobe supposedly let something slip about Shaq paying off other women. Well, that was pretty much the end of it, I think. Any issues the two had after that stemmed from the off-the-court personal problems.

After the 2004 finals, Shaq wanted someone to blame, AS HE ALWAYS DID WHEN HE LOST, and that someone was Kobe. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that it wasn't personal.

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However from a FA standpoint, if they can play with Kobe or be in a situation with an all-star that is more fitting to their game, they'll choose the latter because it is an easier adjustment.


See, now we get these obscure statements that are true, but actually say absolutely nothing about Kobe. Obviously, some players will fit better with other players. Guys like Steve Francis or Allen Iverson might not fit in with Kobe, as they are all ball-dominant guards. That isn't to say that they wouldn't want to play with Kobe - just that he wouldn't be the best fit.

However, we're talking in general here. I think that, in general, most NBA players would not only love to play with Kobe, but would probably be better off for it. He draws so much attention that, if you are a consistent, aggressive contributor, you will get your touches. The problem is that the Lakers haven't had one since Shaq left.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
This is exactly why noone without a perfect opinion on Kobe likes to post here or in these sort of threads. They get totally turned into something else.


Actually, it's because it's either one side of the story or the other. Nothing truly objective that weighs both sides relatively equal.

I purposely try to avoid your posts, especially this previous year.

Well if you are, you're not doing a good job of it. You're quoting me and replying back in many threads.

It could be that neither side is fair or it could that one side can not handle a single non-complimentary word about their hero/idol.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:56 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
This is exactly why noone without a perfect opinion on Kobe likes to post here or in these sort of threads. They get totally turned into something else.


Actually, it's because it's either one side of the story or the other. Nothing truly objective that weighs both sides relatively equal.

I purposely try to avoid your posts, especially this previous year.

Well if you are, you're not doing a good job of it. You're quoting me and replying back in many threads.

It could be that neither side is fair or it could that one side can not handle a single non-complimentary word about their hero/idol.


But it doesn't have to be said in such a spiteful manner.

I know Kobe doesn't look all hero-ish after this summer. I know he's stubborn and made plenty of mistakes. But that doesn't explain why there are plenty of NBA players that want to play for the Lakers. It's not like Kobe is pushing them away. As far as I'm concerned, Kobe has issues with the mentally weak or have weak work ethic. Can't blame him for that. Atkins. Walker. Personally, I'd be real ticked at my team too with the "give up" attitude smack in the middle of the 1st round of the playoffs. No wonder why he wanted out. There've been enough teammates who've played alongside Kobe to know it's not an issue.

Of all people, Derek Fisher is the best proof.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:01 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
This is exactly why noone without a perfect opinion on Kobe likes to post here or in these sort of threads. They get totally turned into something else.


Actually, it's because it's either one side of the story or the other. Nothing truly objective that weighs both sides relatively equal.

I purposely try to avoid your posts, especially this previous year.

Well if you are, you're not doing a good job of it. You're quoting me and replying back in many threads.

It could be that neither side is fair or it could that one side can not handle a single non-complimentary word about their hero/idol.


But it doesn't have to be said in such a spiteful manner.

I know Kobe doesn't look all hero-ish after this summer. I know he's stubborn and made plenty of mistakes. But that doesn't explain why there are plenty of NBA players that want to play for the Lakers. It's not like Kobe is pushing them away. As far as I'm concerned, Kobe has issues with the mentally weak or have weak work ethic. Can't blame him for that. Atkins. Walker. Personally, I'd be real ticked at my team too with the "give up" attitude smack in the middle of the 1st round of the playoffs. No wonder why he wanted out. There've been enough teammates who've played alongside Kobe to know it's not an issue.

Of all people, Derek Fisher is the best proof.


Doesn't pretty much every team have players that are mentally weak or have poor work ethic?
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