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PopcornMachine
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 Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker Lurker wrote: | | PopcornMachine wrote: | | davidse wrote: | give me a break.
if mitch had his way - bynum wouldn't be here - sean may would. |
I think you should give us all a break and explain how you know that?
Or, as I suspect, are you just using something you read somewhere on the internet as fact just because it supports your opinion?
Or, are you just assuming it to be the case because it supports your opinion? |
Jerry Buss said so in public, Jim Buss said so in public. Kupchak has not denied any of this. So it was Jim Buss who picked Bynum unless someone in the FO or the Laker org said he didn't. Sorry- Bynum cannot be credited to Kupchak- he still sucks. |
I didn't hear those quotes from Jerry or Jim, but I did see a smiling Mitch Kupchak say they got the guy they wanted after picking Bynum. Didn't seem like he was missing Sean May or anything.
But I'm sure the stuff you guys read must be the truth because it fits your preconceived notions about Mitch. |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| PopcornMachine wrote: | | Laker Lurker wrote: | | PopcornMachine wrote: | | davidse wrote: | give me a break.
if mitch had his way - bynum wouldn't be here - sean may would. |
I think you should give us all a break and explain how you know that?
Or, as I suspect, are you just using something you read somewhere on the internet as fact just because it supports your opinion?
Or, are you just assuming it to be the case because it supports your opinion? |
Jerry Buss said so in public, Jim Buss said so in public. Kupchak has not denied any of this. So it was Jim Buss who picked Bynum unless someone in the FO or the Laker org said he didn't. Sorry- Bynum cannot be credited to Kupchak- he still sucks. |
I didn't hear those quotes from Jerry or Jim, but I did see a smiling Mitch Kupchak say they got the guy they wanted after picking Bynum. Didn't seem like he was missing Sean May or anything.
But I'm sure the stuff you guys read must be the truth because it fits your preconceived notions about Mitch. |
Big Trades and the Andrew Bynum Conundrum
In June 2005, the Los Angeles Lakers had the tenth pick in a so-so draft -- and they struck gold. They got that rarest of NBA possessions: a strong, mobile big man with the potential to develop great skill. By all reports, the selection of high-schooler Andrew Bynum was championed by Jim Buss, son of owner Jerry Buss, who is an emerging force in the organization.
http://www.andrewbynum.org/andrew-bynum-news-LA-20070504.php
I believe Phil seeded a lot of this conflict to serve his own purposes. And Kobe, until now, has been stoic, really not into playing the PR game. But now he's at that age. He identifies with Shaq now. Shaq was impatient with Kobe, because he had things he wanted to get done quickly. Kobe gets that now.
And it's not all Jim Buss's fault. But they need to clear up the personnel situation. Jim Buss is not and never will be a personnel guy, and I think he's the complicating factor.
Jerry Buss has earned respect as an owner. But owners have to let the personnel guys sort out the talent. Jim Buss drawing his identity as the guy who drafted Andrew Bynum ... that doesn't float.
http://myespn.go.com/profile/truehoop?tag=jim%20buss
June 26, 2006
Baby Bynum on Board
As I was exiting the Lakers' training facility today, I crossed paths with Jim Buss, who was coming in the building. Not only is that proof of Buss' ongoing hand in running the Lakers -- it used to be a longstanding joke that he would never be seen in the office -- we in the media had just been told by Mitch Kupchak that the Lakers don't plan on trading Andrew Bynum -- the prize prospect whom Jim Buss fell in love with at first sight -- despite heavy interest from other clubs.
The Bynum issue is really interesting. Here's a guy who won't be a huge difference-maker the next two years while Phil Jackson's current contract plays out, but certainly will play some as a backup center. If you look around the NBA and think that there's a chance anyone can win it these days (truth of the matter is that neither Dallas nor Miami was good enough to win it, but after that Game 3 collapse, Dallas replaced Miami as the team that was going to lose it), why not trade Bynum for a big-time player now who gives you a real shot at the gold?
The first reason is that Jim Buss believes that Bynum is going to be great, and he very well might be. So it sort of becomes a question of whether you think Bynum and Kobe Bryant can win it all together later. As far as now, it'd surely be easier with a proven veteran in the mix than a 19-year-old (in November), but the Lakers think they can be pretty good now even if they keep developing Bynum.
http://blogs.ocregister.com/lakers/archives/2006/06/
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Laker Lurker
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Joined: 24 Oct 2002
Posts: 7652
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | PopcornMachine wrote: | | Laker Lurker wrote: | | PopcornMachine wrote: | | davidse wrote: | give me a break.
if mitch had his way - bynum wouldn't be here - sean may would. |
I think you should give us all a break and explain how you know that?
Or, as I suspect, are you just using something you read somewhere on the internet as fact just because it supports your opinion?
Or, are you just assuming it to be the case because it supports your opinion? |
Jerry Buss said so in public, Jim Buss said so in public. Kupchak has not denied any of this. So it was Jim Buss who picked Bynum unless someone in the FO or the Laker org said he didn't. Sorry- Bynum cannot be credited to Kupchak- he still sucks. |
I didn't hear those quotes from Jerry or Jim, but I did see a smiling Mitch Kupchak say they got the guy they wanted after picking Bynum. Didn't seem like he was missing Sean May or anything.
But I'm sure the stuff you guys read must be the truth because it fits your preconceived notions about Mitch. |
Big Trades and the Andrew Bynum Conundrum
In June 2005, the Los Angeles Lakers had the tenth pick in a so-so draft -- and they struck gold. They got that rarest of NBA possessions: a strong, mobile big man with the potential to develop great skill. By all reports, the selection of high-schooler Andrew Bynum was championed by Jim Buss, son of owner Jerry Buss, who is an emerging force in the organization.
http://www.andrewbynum.org/andrew-bynum-news-LA-20070504.php
I believe Phil seeded a lot of this conflict to serve his own purposes. And Kobe, until now, has been stoic, really not into playing the PR game. But now he's at that age. He identifies with Shaq now. Shaq was impatient with Kobe, because he had things he wanted to get done quickly. Kobe gets that now.
And it's not all Jim Buss's fault. But they need to clear up the personnel situation. Jim Buss is not and never will be a personnel guy, and I think he's the complicating factor.
Jerry Buss has earned respect as an owner. But owners have to let the personnel guys sort out the talent. Jim Buss drawing his identity as the guy who drafted Andrew Bynum ... that doesn't float.
http://myespn.go.com/profile/truehoop?tag=jim%20buss
June 26, 2006
Baby Bynum on Board
As I was exiting the Lakers' training facility today, I crossed paths with Jim Buss, who was coming in the building. Not only is that proof of Buss' ongoing hand in running the Lakers -- it used to be a longstanding joke that he would never be seen in the office -- we in the media had just been told by Mitch Kupchak that the Lakers don't plan on trading Andrew Bynum -- the prize prospect whom Jim Buss fell in love with at first sight -- despite heavy interest from other clubs.
The Bynum issue is really interesting. Here's a guy who won't be a huge difference-maker the next two years while Phil Jackson's current contract plays out, but certainly will play some as a backup center. If you look around the NBA and think that there's a chance anyone can win it these days (truth of the matter is that neither Dallas nor Miami was good enough to win it, but after that Game 3 collapse, Dallas replaced Miami as the team that was going to lose it), why not trade Bynum for a big-time player now who gives you a real shot at the gold?
The first reason is that Jim Buss believes that Bynum is going to be great, and he very well might be. So it sort of becomes a question of whether you think Bynum and Kobe Bryant can win it all together later. As far as now, it'd surely be easier with a proven veteran in the mix than a 19-year-old (in November), but the Lakers think they can be pretty good now even if they keep developing Bynum.
http://blogs.ocregister.com/lakers/archives/2006/06/ |
Jim Buss does not have to be the personnel guy since he is destined to be the "active" owner. However, he does have to protect the fans , and his familiy assets by having to step in to fill the vacuum that got the Lakers Rush, Cook, Sasha and to some extent, Walton |
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TLT
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Another chance to bash Mitch? Car54 where are you? |
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Dennis_D
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2017
Location: North Dallas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Big Trades and the Andrew Bynum Conundrum
In June 2005, the Los Angeles Lakers had the tenth pick in a so-so draft -- and they struck gold. They got that rarest of NBA possessions: a strong, mobile big man with the potential to develop great skill. By all reports, the selection of high-schooler Andrew Bynum was championed by Jim Buss, son of owner Jerry Buss, who is an emerging force in the organization.
http://www.andrewbynum.org/andrew-bynum-news-LA-20070504.php
I believe Phil seeded a lot of this conflict to serve his own purposes. And Kobe, until now, has been stoic, really not into playing the PR game. But now he's at that age. He identifies with Shaq now. Shaq was impatient with Kobe, because he had things he wanted to get done quickly. Kobe gets that now.
And it's not all Jim Buss's fault. But they need to clear up the personnel situation. Jim Buss is not and never will be a personnel guy, and I think he's the complicating factor.
Jerry Buss has earned respect as an owner. But owners have to let the personnel guys sort out the talent. Jim Buss drawing his identity as the guy who drafted Andrew Bynum ... that doesn't float.
http://myespn.go.com/profile/truehoop?tag=jim%20buss
June 26, 2006
Baby Bynum on Board
As I was exiting the Lakers' training facility today, I crossed paths with Jim Buss, who was coming in the building. Not only is that proof of Buss' ongoing hand in running the Lakers -- it used to be a longstanding joke that he would never be seen in the office -- we in the media had just been told by Mitch Kupchak that the Lakers don't plan on trading Andrew Bynum -- the prize prospect whom Jim Buss fell in love with at first sight -- despite heavy interest from other clubs.
The Bynum issue is really interesting. Here's a guy who won't be a huge difference-maker the next two years while Phil Jackson's current contract plays out, but certainly will play some as a backup center. If you look around the NBA and think that there's a chance anyone can win it these days (truth of the matter is that neither Dallas nor Miami was good enough to win it, but after that Game 3 collapse, Dallas replaced Miami as the team that was going to lose it), why not trade Bynum for a big-time player now who gives you a real shot at the gold?
The first reason is that Jim Buss believes that Bynum is going to be great, and he very well might be. So it sort of becomes a question of whether you think Bynum and Kobe Bryant can win it all together later. As far as now, it'd surely be easier with a proven veteran in the mix than a 19-year-old (in November), but the Lakers think they can be pretty good now even if they keep developing Bynum.
http://blogs.ocregister.com/lakers/archives/2006/06/ |
You left out this quote from Lazenby in the middle article:
| Quote: | | (And the Lakers have always had a complicated "court." Magic Johnson is a voice that's around that cares a lot and is hard to ignore. Jerry West always had his say when he was there. There are a lot of voices even in simpler times.) |
My impression from what I have read is that many people are involved with major decisions including Magic, Jerry Buss and Jim Buss. But I have not seen anything and there is nothing in the stories you mentioned that indicates that Mitch was overruled by Jim Buss.
Let's say the following happened:
In Mitch's teaching of Jim about the type of moves the Lakers should make, Mitch strongly emphasizes that the Lakers need a top-notch big man to anchor their defense. Mitch says Mihm isn't good enough and the Lakers need to look at other possibilities. Jim Buss then gets the scouting reports of the players are seriously considering, reads about Bynum and says, "He sounds like just the big man the Lakers need!" The Lakers work Bynum out to rave reviews by the scouting staff. A meeting happens afterwards where Mitch proposes making a promise to Bynum in exchange for Bynum canceling all his other work outs. Given the high risk of the pick, Mitch asks for ownership's agreement to the promise (and pick). Jerry turns to Jim and says, "What do you say, Jim?" Jim says, "Do it!"
Wouldn't that story fit Jim Buss being a champion of Bynum and thinking he is the one who drafted Bynum? Yet at the same time, Mitch would have been driving the whole process?
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Laker Lurker
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Dennis_D wrote: |
Wouldn't that story fit Jim Buss being a champion of Bynum and thinking he is the one who drafted Bynum? Yet at the same time, Mitch would have been driving the whole process? |
Like when kupchak was driving the process that got Rush, Cook, Vuljacic and Walton? Pretty nice spin, but revisionist spin nonetheless. |
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DocK36
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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It was common knowledge that Bynum was Jim Buss's pick. That was leaked shortly after the draft, before anyone knows anything about Bynum. Wouldn't surprised me if Mitch floated that out there because he wanted people to know he didn't want Bynum in case Bynum becomes a bust and his guy Sean May becomes a player. Now that Bynum has shown some potentials and other GMs become interested, you can't go back and change history and give credit to Mitch. Likewise, if Bynum flames and become a bust, can't go back and bash Mitch for picking him either.
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Dennis_D
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Location: North Dallas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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I search on LG to see the first mention I could find of "Jim Buss" and Bynum. I found a post quoting a 1/28/07 Mark Heisler story:
| Mark Heisler wrote: | With no great centers in his class, Bynum was a McDonald's All-American. The Lakers saw him at the game in South Bend, Ind., and put him down as too heavy.
Several weeks later, NBA teams were invited to a workout after Bynum's AAU coach, James Marshall, put him through a crash conditioning program. Lakers assistant GM Ronnie Lester attended and changed his mind on the spot.
The Lakers worked Bynum out in secret before the Chicago pre-draft camp. This time Mitch Kupchak was there, too, along with Jim Buss.
Then they worked him out in secret here for Jackson, who liked him. Nevertheless, Bynum hadn't even turned 18 and there was little chance he would be much help to Jackson, who was on only a three-year deal.
The decision-making process could go down in Lakers history with Jerry West trading Vlade Divac, getting Kobe Bryant and setting them up to sign Shaquille O'Neal in 1996.
Even with Jackson returning, as if borne by angels after a 33-49 season, the organization stayed on its timetable, not his.
Jerry Buss had always been willing to gamble. Jim helped persuade him — over the phone to Europe, where his father was vacationing — that drafting Bynum instead of North Carolina's Sean May was worth another gamble. |
Some posters took this as confirmation that Buss wanted Bynum and Mitch wanted May. Jim Buss was definitely active involved in choosing Bynum, but I don't see any evidence that Bynum wasn't also the choice of Mitch.
Looking around some more, apparently Peter Vecsey is the source for the Mitch-wanted-May rumor. I found a post from 1/10/06 that quoted a Vecsey column:
| Peter Vecsey wrote: | Word from the wise in La-La Land: Phil Jackson strongly encouraged Jim Buss to include Andrew Bynum in a package proposal for Ron Artest, but the owner's son fervently negated the notion. Though everyone in the front office maintained shared aims last June, people in the know maintain Buss and assistant GM Ronnie Lester were instrumental in the drafting of 7-foot Bynum, whereas Jackson and GM Mitch Kupchak preferred Sean May and Danny Granger.
How the Lakers could hire Jackson for three years and select an undeveloped high-school project when the team clearly needed immediate help has never been explained logically or otherwise.
I used to think Jackson was overpaid at $10M per. Now I'm convinced he's underpaid.
Still, at least one cockeyed optimist within the organization remains convinced the Lakers somehow will bag Artest.
"I'm looking forward to the peace and quiet Ron would bring to our locker room," he dryly declares. |
Not that Peter Vecsey was ever wrong about the Lakers.
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Dennis_D
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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A post-2005 draft story by Mark Heisler, as quoted by True Hoop:
| Quote: | | For a week, the organization debated it. In the end, the decision wasn't made by Jackson, as everyone thought it would be, but by Kupchak with a nod from Buss to go for the greatness he saw in Bynum, and it was the right one. Kupchak says Jackson was on board all the way, but others aren't as sure. Afterward, someone asked a Laker official if Jackson had been against taking Bynum. "I'm sure he was," the official said. |
(link)
In May of '07, Jim Buss went on 570 AM and said:
| Quote: | "What that tells me is that my decision on drafting Bynum actually got us to the position to get an MVP in the league and we'll use the example of Kevin Garnett. If that's a deal breaker then I did make a great decision drafting Andrew Bynum because that's a deal breaker, meaning he is valuable.
"Now if it was Channing Frye would Minnesota make that a deal-breaker because of Channing Frye? I doubt it. But if they're talking about Andrew Bynum and that's a deal breaker it means we made a great selection at 10." |
(link)
Again, I don't see anything that indicates that drafting Bynum wasn't a joint decision of the Lakers FO.
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LakersRBack21
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Joined: 18 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Facts are facts. Just like Lakers wear Purple and Gold we can also see that Mitch sucks as a GM> I mean seriously take a look at the guy whos representing your organization. Imagine if Mitch was your head salesman because in essence your GM should be a pitch man right?
How good would you feel about him selling something. The guy looks like a dead man walking. Guy has no personality or charisma . He s just not cunning enough. In order to make deals you ve got to sell your product.
I know you apologists hate that all we do is bash Mitch but why the hell not. Dont you expect more. We can all come up with criticism in his deals but can you come up with reasons why we shouldnt bash him or to praise him.? |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
(And the Lakers have always had a complicated "court." Magic Johnson is a voice that's around that cares a lot and is hard to ignore. Jerry West always had his say when he was there. There are a lot of voices even in simpler times.) |
But each time, Jim Buss is pointed as the spearhead for acquiring Bynum and protecting him.
Of course lots of voices are said, but there's 1 decision-maker out of the cabinet meeting. With Bynum? Definitely Jim. With Sasha? Definitely Kupchak.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
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Mark_in_Tulsa
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 12977
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Dennis_D wrote: | | Laker_in_Tulsa wrote: | In my book you either fail or you win a championship. That's what the Lakers are all about right?
So all the GM's that have won a ring are better than Mitch.
That would be Detroit, Miami, and the Spurs GM. Everyone else is just as bad as Mitch.
My 2 cents. |
Mitch has won 2 championships as GM. |
True but everyone says Mitch had nothing to do with it. It was all West.
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davidse
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Joined: 03 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| PopcornMachine wrote: | | davidse wrote: | give me a break.
if mitch had his way - bynum wouldn't be here - sean may would. |
I think you should give us all a break and explain how you know that?
Or, as I suspect, are you just using something you read somewhere on the internet as fact just because it supports your opinion?
Or, are you just assuming it to be the case because it supports your opinion? |
heard it directly from sky.
i trust him 100%. how about you ?
pretty sure i've heard emplay say it too - and more than once.
and THEN, i also remember reading a jerry buss quote about how jim buss got them to pick bynum.
so anyway, i'm perfectly fine on settling this by asking emplay.
i doubt you'd take me up on that though... |
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Vincanity
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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He has made some nice draft choices the past 3 drafts, quietly building a nice team.
C- Bynum
PF- Turiaf
SF -
SG- Crittenton
PG- Farmar
That's pretty good.
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Laker_in_Tulsa wrote: | | Dennis_D wrote: | | Laker_in_Tulsa wrote: | In my book you either fail or you win a championship. That's what the Lakers are all about right?
So all the GM's that have won a ring are better than Mitch.
That would be Detroit, Miami, and the Spurs GM. Everyone else is just as bad as Mitch.
My 2 cents. |
Mitch has won 2 championships as GM. |
True but everyone says Mitch had nothing to do with it. It was all West. |
Please detail Mitch's contributions to those two championship teams.
While he did land Ho Grant, the move was bittersweet at best. Glen Rice (a Jerry West asset)was the last tradeable talent left, and all we really received was a very short-term lease on a player that was clearly breaking down in Seattle. While Grant helped us sweep SA (with Horry), we mortgaged the future, and didn't replenish the tradeable asset base later. As a matter of fact, it even cost us a first round pick (which could have been Arenas).
This is not just hindsight. I stated my reservations (to put it mildly) to that trade, using the phrase "mortgaging the future" to describe its eventually effect on the Laker franchise.
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postandpivot
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| melo061 wrote: | | angel wrote: | Bynum drafted @ #10. There is considerable opinion that if AB was available in thie most recent draft, he would be drafted #3 overall. The Lakers received value for their pick.
Farmar drafted @ #26. He was rated about #7 among rookies most of last season. He has a chance to become a very good starter. The Lakers received value for their pick.
Crittenton drafted @ #19. He was rated by many as a lottery pick. His SPL play indicates that he should be able to contribute this season. The Lakers received value for their pick.
That is three in a row drafting winners in the last three drafts. He must be doing something right. |
Bynum was Jim Buss's pick, not Mitch's. As for Farmar and Crit, both haven't proven anything and are still projects. 3 projects are not winners.
Read my signature, drafting rush over prince cost used a champioship. If prince is a laker than pistons don't shut down kobe.
| Quote: | Ginobili was the final pick in the second round of the draft. Prince and Boozer taken after Rush. Barbosa after Cook. Varejao after Sasha. I can hear your excuse now, 20/20 hindsight. Not for me. Before draft day I was warning against Cook and Sasha. Well before draft day and on draft day and before the pick was made I was saying draft Barbosa and Varejao respectively. No hindsight whatsoever.
The above just speaks to the pick itself not the methodology, which was arguably worse. The Laker scouts love Prince and recommend him. Rush drops. Kupchak goes against his scouts and takes Rush because he was higher on Mitch's board. Draft board over scouts? Dumb.
Then Harp works out Barbosa and recommends him. Cook falls. Kupchak yet again goes against the scouts and takes his board. Not learning from your methodology mistakes. Dumber.
More methodology mistakes:
1. Ignoring skill set holes. Team needs speed, athleticism and defense and they add gunner matadors. In triplicate. Draft Sasha, extend Cook, sign Radmanovic. Now quadruplicate with Fisher.
Kupchak is heavily biased toward shooting and tri fits and has a blind eye for defense. That is then manifested in the roster. Kupchak's bias in quadruplicate. Kupchak's blind spot nowhere to be found among his acquisitions.
2. No contingency planning. No power, wait for Malonte to return, he retires. Lakers have no power all year. Lose Banks back to Boston. Defense at 1 is the worst in the league. Not a finger is lifted. Plan A and then...no plan B. |
Per Sky. |
^this is so funny to me. if bynum sucks. its mitch's pick. if he does half way decent. its Buss' pick.
first off, rush, cook, walton, sasha are all Pjax-esk picks. meaning they were drafted to fit in his triangle offense. so whoever we passed on had a lot to do with "can this or that guy do well in pjax triangle offense. cook=high post player(perfect tri fit), walton=savvy passer from the 3 positions(triangle fit), rush=big guard shooter(perfect triangle fit), sasha=big guard shooter(perfect triangle fit).
so mitch is just a figure head. he's made picks to fit Pjax's system that pjax has approved. not one pick did pjax ever say or will ever say he did not approve of.
Bynum is Jim's pick. so mitch is being paid to be a figure head. not his fault if something goes wrong or dont reward him if something goes right.
I know you guys dont like this idea. because this means you have to point the finger at mr. 9 rings. |
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postandpivot
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | What statements did A Mad Chinaman make? He asked for an assessment of Mitch during a period when there is a regular parade of threads about how Mitch needs to be fired. |
A simple request of information and question. There was no criticism, yet, your choice of words leads this thread to be a thread of criticism.
| Quote: | | And completely unresponsive to the OP. Ginobili was the final pick in the second round of the draft. Does that mean every other GM who drafted in that second round is incompetent? |
No, because that's just one example. Sky listed multiple examples in back to back years.
| Quote: | If you pick and choose at any GM's record, you can make any GM look bad.
Dennis O'Connor's drafting for Utah, 2001-2004
2001 - #24 Raul Lopez
Took two years to sign him. In his rookie year, averaged 7.0 ppg in 82 games. In his sophomore year, averaged 5.2 ppg in 31 games. Was then in a trade for Greg Ostertag and out of the NBA
2002 - #18 Curtis Borchardt (through trade)
Sat out his rookie year because of injuries (was injury prone in college). Played 16 games his second year, 12.8 mpg in 67 games his third year. Was then in a trade for Greg Ostertag and out of the NBA
2003 - #19 Sasha Pavlovic
Played 14.5 mpg in 79 games his rookie year. Was taken by Charlotte in expansion draft and then traded to Cleveland
2004 - #14 Kris Humphries and #16 Kirk Snyder
Kris Humphries played 2 unimpressive seasons in Utah before being traded for Rafael Araujo. Kirk Snyder had an unimpressive rookie season then was in a trade for Greg Ostertag.
5 first round picks over 4 drafts and all Utah had to show for it was Greg Ostertag and Rafael Araujo. Really, really bad drafting. Is O'Connor an incompetent boob? |
If you want to Isolate draft, sure, it's equally bad. But considering you're pointing out Kevin O'Connor 2001-2004, then sure. He's just as incompetent being draft specific.
If you want overall picture? He got Okur from Detroit, Boozer, and drafted Deron Williams.
Did O'Connor dramatically improve team record? Yes. Did he build a franchise core? Yes. |
DId O'connor dramatically improve team record? Sure he did. But how did he pull this off? Did he build a franchise core? Sure he did, but again how did he pull this off?
can we please, please, please, stop giving credit where its not due. or comparing Gm's to mitch that have a much greater chance of getting names on their squads based on the fact that they miss the playoffs 2 or 3 years in a row.
utah was bounced out of the first round twice, then they missed the playoffs 3 years straight. getting bounced is not the issue. the issue is what was your draft position because you barely got in the offs 2 years straight?
what was your draft position because you didn't get in 3 years after that.
You better come out with a decent to good team by now.
I double dare mitch/laker FO to blow a situation if we missed the playoffs 3 seasons in a row and lost in the first round coming into the offs as a 8th seed 2 years in a row. and not end up with a very nice looking team.
its so hard not to come out with a nice team that you have to either be a horrible GM, choose nothing but great/injury prone players that were not previously injury prone before drafting them, or your Boss is stingy with the cash. so you cant ever make any real trades to get stars because you will have to pay them eventually.
we won 3 rings in a row, then went lost to the spurs, then lost in the finals again. missed one playoff season, got Bynum. and have been back in the playoffs ever since. this is why when people ask, "should we tank?" and people get all hot and bothered. you dont understand what they're saying. they're thinking, if we're not going to win it all, its a bust. so might as well tank and get a high pick. so we can either develop the guy or package him with a guy like kwame/Rad/Luke/Cook and get a star in return. and still have our main guns together LO and bynum(he will be a main gun soon).
This is basically how most of these teams you are looking at have the teams they currently have. sure there are like 2 or 3 Gm's wheeling and dealing left and right. but for the most part, guys are not going to the offs or are barely getting in at the 8th spot. and ending up with a high draft pick year in and year out. this is why they have tons of pieces to trade and we dont.
anyone know why phoenix had the money to pay nash to begin with? just think about it.
marion was coming off a rookie contract. amare was still under a rookie contract. the rest of the suns were irrelevant.
if you suck long enough and your city doesn't know winning. you can keep sucking and sucking and get lucky and wind up with the next big thing or have 3 or 4 first round picks, where u use 2, and trade 2 + a couple of bad expiring K's and end up with a real team. all of a sudden, you look like the best Gm that ever lived.
as much as i like cuban. dallas still aint won jack. as much as i admire the job the sun's Gm did and is doing. they still have yet to taste the finals.
So in the grand scheme of things. these gm's are just as bad as mitch if not worse(i'm leaning towards worse).
example. if we had the suns team. do you think we would not have made it to the finals yet? in this soft current nba? i guarantee we woudl've won 2 already with that lineup. why? because we would have a coach that knows how to win. when was the last time D'an won something?
When was the last time Nelly won something? okay so you go with "the little general avvvary JON-son" he hasn't won anything at the coaching level.
You can make all the acquisitions in the world. but if you dont have the right coach. you will NEVER get over the hump. there will always be a reason/excuse. you ever notice how many excuses the suns have?
at what point do you fire D'an and say sorry chief, you're just not good enough to get us over the hump. thanks for in season victories. but we want more.
folks you've seen the same coach's win year in and year out.
Pjax, greg Pop, Larry Brown, and pat Riley.
why hasn't the suns, nor dallas gone after any one of those coaches? Pjax was available for a moment? they could've allowed riles to play Gm and coach like he likes, Larry brown was available.
now as much as I'm starting to dislike pjax's decisions. I still know the man is a winner in comparison to these other jokers. |
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Bol
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Vincanity wrote: | He has made some nice draft choices the past 3 drafts, quietly building a nice team.
C- Bynum
PF- Turiaf
SF -
SG- Crittenton
PG- Farmar
That's pretty good. |
Agreed. Very happy with the last few drafts. It's not inconceivable that Mitch has learned from his mistakes. Such things do happen. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
DId O'connor dramatically improve team record? Sure he did. But how did he pull this off? Did he build a franchise core? Sure he did, but again how did he pull this off? |
1. Draft Deron Williams.
2. Boozer with capspace.
3. Okur with capspace.
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I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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postandpivot
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
DId O'connor dramatically improve team record? Sure he did. But how did he pull this off? Did he build a franchise core? Sure he did, but again how did he pull this off? |
1. Draft Deron Williams.
2. Boozer with capspace.
3. Okur with capspace. |
Mike you know exactly what I'm talking about. how did you have capspace to begin with? You SUCKED, so you continued to SUCK vs make moves to improve right now. which would have eaten away at your capspace. if the L.A. area wasn't so impatient. no telling what we may have now. but because of that "i can't wait" mentality. we make moves that if work out well, then great, but if they dont. then they are capspace killers. these other teams are sitting on youngstas and re-drafting more youngstas, and signing jokers to 2 or 3 year cheapee deals. so they can presever capspace/ but really to save cash. if they finally see an oppurtunity they jump. if not. they stay put and keep losing(aka tanking). |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| DocK36 wrote: | | It was common knowledge that Bynum was Jim Buss's pick. That was leaked shortly after the draft, before anyone knows anything about Bynum. Wouldn't surprised me if Mitch floated that out there because he wanted people to know he didn't want Bynum in case Bynum becomes a bust and his guy Sean May becomes a player. Now that Bynum has shown some potentials and other GMs become interested, you can't go back and change history and give credit to Mitch. Likewise, if Bynum flames and become a bust, can't go back and bash Mitch for picking him either. |
Personally, I don't pretend to know what the Lakers decision-making process is or to try to give out credit to one person for this and to another person for that because I don't really know who should get credit or blame for each decision. I just look at the front office manuevers as a whole. It seems Mitch is the chosen scapegoat in all this, though. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| postandpivot wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
DId O'connor dramatically improve team record? Sure he did. But how did he pull this off? Did he build a franchise core? Sure he did, but again how did he pull this off? |
1. Draft Deron Williams.
2. Boozer with capspace.
3. Okur with capspace. |
Mike you know exactly what I'm talking about. how did you have capspace to begin with? You SUCKED, so you continued to SUCK vs make moves to improve right now. which would have eaten away at your capspace. if the L.A. area wasn't so impatient. no telling what we may have now. but because of that "i can't wait" mentality. we make moves that if work out well, then great, but if they dont. then they are capspace killers. these other teams are sitting on youngstas and re-drafting more youngstas, and signing jokers to 2 or 3 year cheapee deals. so they can presever capspace/ but really to save cash. if they finally see an oppurtunity they jump. if not. they stay put and keep losing(aka tanking). |
Funny. Like I've said a billion times, I hold the Lakers to higher standard.
If Utah can rebuild with capspace, and the Spurs can rebuild with draft and capspace without lottery picks around 1 franchise player, damn right that's what I expect of the Laker FO.
Did they do that? No. Period.
You expect me to fault the Jazz? They lost their 2 franchise players. Can't blame them for the massive drought. And even with the heavy contract of Kirilenko and just 1 lottery pick, 2 capspace players later, end of story. They've made the best of their situation. Did the Lakers? No.
I don't understand why this is such a sensitive subject. It's not like I'm criticizing the FO as individual people of poor character. These are the moves that they did which led to the current situation that the Lakers are on.
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