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Dreamshake
Star Player
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 4799
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 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| JD wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | I don't see anywhere where I have seemed hopeful of a trade that ships out T-Mac. I have agreed that Kobe is better multiple times…just not that much better to warrant us putting together the kind of package never seen in league history. |
I would say the fact you're here, trying to sell everyone on how great TMac supposedly is, is the tip off. |
No, I'm here, telling everyone that you won't receive back a superstar player and multiple picks in return for Kobe. I believe there is one post where I said eliminate T-Mac or the Rockets and just go with what you can get for Kobe (from anyone), and it won't be that much. You will either get youth and picks, a superstar, or a borderline star player with picks in return. |
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Dreamshake
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Joined: 05 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | | Well you say people in Houston think Mcgrady is a top 10 player, but don't people in Houston agree that Kobe is at least a top 1 or 2 player? I would generally say that fans of other teams are probably a better indicator of your players true value (especially if there tends to be a consensus). |
I agree. Just going off on the court play, I would put Kobe #2 behind Duncan. Taking potential into account (as far as trading for him) I would probably put him behind Duncan, Bron, Wade, Yao, Bosh, Durant, etc. |
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Dreamshake
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Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 4799
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: |
So, they are bad, and you won't to give them away for Kobe ( with Tmac...). And if Yao is so bad, trade him here with Kobe : you will see how he is bad...Same for role players like Battier , Alston ( he has his problems out of the court but he is way better than Smush).
Last thing: you either are 18 years old or you haven't seen Kobe dominate playoffs games and series, even when Shaq was struggling or fading ... and you say he had "a bunch of success" 
Take Wade vs dallas : Kobe did the same vs the Spurs more than once; take Lebron vs the Pistons : Kobe did the same if not more vs the Queens more than once. I could go on and on...
You should stop with this crap that you don't count what Kobe has done in the playoffs when Shaq was here. Who cares ? Shaq didn't shoot for him, didn't defend for him, didn't shoot his free trows, didn't take his last second shots... I don't care if Kobe hasn't won with scrubs or youngsters ( at least he has carried them into the playoffs in the West with Wiltesque performances...).
Bottom line Kobe is proven as a playoff animal, Tmac not. |
So you obviously don’t know the difference between playing with another great player to divert attention (especially a center, and the best one in the game who gets more attention that you) and playing with all the attention on you? Bottom line…since being option 1 and not having another star to rely on, Kobe has the same amount of postseason success as McGrady.
Last edited by Dreamshake on Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 3945
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And I’m pretty sure everyone here will disagree with you. MVP does not mean best player. It means best player on a very good team. |
| Quote: | | Wow, and there are tons of Houstonians or Rockets fans who think otherwise. www.clutchfans.net |
| Quote: | | KG has missed the postseason how many times in a row? |
I started to write another response to you, but I lost interest when (1) you were incapable of understanding that I am not equating MVP with best player, and in fact said exactly the opposite, (2) you cite a fan site to show that people in Houston are excited about the Rockets, which is like citing a Spice Girls fan site as proof that everyone loves Victoria Beckham, and (3) you are questioning the inclusion of KG on the list of the top 10 players in the league.
I hope the Rockets have a good season. I usually catch a fair amount of coverage on Fox Sports Southwest. In fact, I watch a lot more now that Matt Bullard and Clyde Drexler have replaced Calvin Murphy (cringe) and Van Chancellor (choke). Good luck to you. |
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Dreamshake
Star Player
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 4799
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
I started to write another response to you, but I lost interest when (1) you were incapable of understanding that I am not equating MVP with best player, and in fact said exactly the opposite, (2) you cite a fan site to show that people in Houston are excited about the Rockets, which is like citing a Spice Girls fan site as proof that everyone loves Victoria Beckham, and (3) you are questioning the inclusion of KG on the list of the top 10 players in the league.
I hope the Rockets have a good season. I usually catch a fair amount of coverage on Fox Sports Southwest. In fact, I watch a lot more now that Matt Bullard and Clyde Drexler have replaced Calvin Murphy (cringe) and Van Chancellor (choke). Good luck to you. |
Is citing a fan site any worse than you saying “I know some guys in Houston and no one is excited” (I am paraphrasing).
I consider KG to be a top 5 player. But if you or others are pointing to T-Mac's inability to make the playoffs once, when surrounded by garbage, or inability to get past round 1 then how can KG be at the top of your list? That's a tad backwards is all. If winning is your end all be all then he doesn't belong either.
Thanks. We can agree to disagree I guess. And yes, Murph was garbage but he had the pimp suits!!!!!!! |
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Luke
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 3616
Location: Deep Europe
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: |
So, they are bad, and you won't to give them away for Kobe ( with Tmac...). And if Yao is so bad, trade him here with Kobe : you will see how he is bad...Same for role players like Battier , Alston ( he has his problems out of the court but he is way better than Smush).
Last thing: you either are 18 years old or you haven't seen Kobe dominate playoffs games and series, even when Shaq was struggling or fading ... and you say he had "a bunch of success"
Take Wade vs dallas : Kobe did the same vs the Spurs more than once; take Lebron vs the Pistons : Kobe did the same if not more vs the Queens more than once. I could go on and on...
You should stop with this crap that you don't count what Kobe has done in the playoffs when Shaq was here. Who cares ? Shaq didn't shoot for him, didn't defend for him, didn't shoot his free trows, didn't take his last second shots... I don't care if Kobe hasn't won with scrubs or youngsters ( at least he has carried them into the playoffs in the West with Wiltesque performances...).
Bottom line Kobe is proven as a playoff animal, Tmac not. |
So you obviously don’t know the difference between playing with another great player to divert attention (especially a center, and the best one in the game who gets more attention that you) and playing with all the attention on you? Bottom line…since being option 1 and not having another star to rely on, Kobe has the same amount of postseason success as McGrady. |
Kobe played in indiana with Shaq fouled out and won on the road the game that took us 3-1.
-In the most important game of the 2000 championship run, game seven vs Portland, Kobe had more points, rebounds ( !) , assists, steals and blocks( !) than Shaq.
-In 2001 Popovich called Kobe the best player in the league and also called him 21 years Hall of Famer, after he dropped 45 points in his house.
-3 days before Kobe had 48 point and 16 rebounds at Arco Arena, to sweep the Queens.
I could go on for the entire day...
But this was Shaq with his magic powers :roll: |
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Dreamshake
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Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 4799
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: |
So, they are bad, and you won't to give them away for Kobe ( with Tmac...). And if Yao is so bad, trade him here with Kobe : you will see how he is bad...Same for role players like Battier , Alston ( he has his problems out of the court but he is way better than Smush).
Last thing: you either are 18 years old or you haven't seen Kobe dominate playoffs games and series, even when Shaq was struggling or fading ... and you say he had "a bunch of success"
Take Wade vs dallas : Kobe did the same vs the Spurs more than once; take Lebron vs the Pistons : Kobe did the same if not more vs the Queens more than once. I could go on and on...
You should stop with this crap that you don't count what Kobe has done in the playoffs when Shaq was here. Who cares ? Shaq didn't shoot for him, didn't defend for him, didn't shoot his free trows, didn't take his last second shots... I don't care if Kobe hasn't won with scrubs or youngsters ( at least he has carried them into the playoffs in the West with Wiltesque performances...).
Bottom line Kobe is proven as a playoff animal, Tmac not. |
So you obviously don’t know the difference between playing with another great player to divert attention (especially a center, and the best one in the game who gets more attention that you) and playing with all the attention on you? Bottom line…since being option 1 and not having another star to rely on, Kobe has the same amount of postseason success as McGrady. |
Kobe played in indiana with Shaq fouled out and won on the road the game that took us 3-1.
-In the most important game of the 2000 championship run, game seven vs Portland, Kobe had more points, rebounds ( !) , assists, steals and blocks( !) than Shaq.
-In 2001 Popovich called Kobe the best player in the league and also called him 21 years Hall of Famer, after he dropped 45 points in his house.
-3 days before Kobe had 48 point and 16 rebounds at Arco Arena, to sweep the Queens.
I could go on for the entire day...
But this was Shaq with his magic powers :roll: |
I'm sure you could go on giving me sporadic individual highlights that Kobe got playing as the second option, off of Shaq. I can give you some of the same type games that Wade got in his first two postseasons with Shaq (a lesser version).
Here are my highlights:
2000 Finals MVP - Shaq
2001 Finals MVP - Shaq
2002 Finals MVP - Shaq
And him winning those awards weren't even close....
And to clarify, Shaq wins none of those titles without Kobe on the team to take over down the stretch (since Shaq can be a late game liability). But it is clear to everyone who the man on those teams were and who was generally regarded as the better player. Shaq has been the best player of this era...either him or Duncan.
Now how many of those moments can you list for me as the #1 option...you know, the ones that led to advancement to the 2nd round? |
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LakerLanny
Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Oct 2001
Posts: 23844
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | I'm sure you could go on giving me sporadic individual highlights that Kobe got playing as the second option, off of Shaq. I can give you some of the same type games that Wade got in his first two postseasons with Shaq (a lesser version).
Here are my highlights:
2000 Finals MVP - Shaq
2001 Finals MVP - Shaq
2002 Finals MVP - Shaq
And him winning those awards weren't even close....
And to clarify, Shaq wins none of those titles without Kobe on the team to take over down the stretch (since Shaq can be a late game liability). But it is clear to everyone who the man on those teams were and who was generally regarded as the better player. Shaq has been the best player of this era...either him or Duncan.
Now how many of those moments can you list for me as the #1 option...you know, the ones that led to advancement to the 2nd round? |
Bad argument.
Kobe was the man in those title runs, not Shaq believe it or not. Shaq had his moments and held down the middle, but it was Kobe who delivered the goods over and over in the clutch.
Lakers would have won all those final series with or without Shaq after making it through the West.
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tgf5
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 9770
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yet McGrady can't get out of the first round with Yao Ming, arguably the best center in the league ATM.
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| Quote: | | Asked if James' move to Miami will cause a power shift in the NBA, Otis Smith responded, "Is Kobe retiring?" |
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C M B
Star Player
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 7803
Location: Westwood
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: |
So, they are bad, and you won't to give them away for Kobe ( with Tmac...). And if Yao is so bad, trade him here with Kobe : you will see how he is bad...Same for role players like Battier , Alston ( he has his problems out of the court but he is way better than Smush).
Last thing: you either are 18 years old or you haven't seen Kobe dominate playoffs games and series, even when Shaq was struggling or fading ... and you say he had "a bunch of success"
Take Wade vs dallas : Kobe did the same vs the Spurs more than once; take Lebron vs the Pistons : Kobe did the same if not more vs the Queens more than once. I could go on and on...
You should stop with this crap that you don't count what Kobe has done in the playoffs when Shaq was here. Who cares ? Shaq didn't shoot for him, didn't defend for him, didn't shoot his free trows, didn't take his last second shots... I don't care if Kobe hasn't won with scrubs or youngsters ( at least he has carried them into the playoffs in the West with Wiltesque performances...).
Bottom line Kobe is proven as a playoff animal, Tmac not. |
So you obviously don’t know the difference between playing with another great player to divert attention (especially a center, and the best one in the game who gets more attention that you) and playing with all the attention on you? Bottom line…since being option 1 and not having another star to rely on, Kobe has the same amount of postseason success as McGrady. |
Kobe played in indiana with Shaq fouled out and won on the road the game that took us 3-1.
-In the most important game of the 2000 championship run, game seven vs Portland, Kobe had more points, rebounds ( !) , assists, steals and blocks( !) than Shaq.
-In 2001 Popovich called Kobe the best player in the league and also called him 21 years Hall of Famer, after he dropped 45 points in his house.
-3 days before Kobe had 48 point and 16 rebounds at Arco Arena, to sweep the Queens.
I could go on for the entire day...
But this was Shaq with his magic powers :roll: |
I'm sure you could go on giving me sporadic individual highlights that Kobe got playing as the second option, off of Shaq. I can give you some of the same type games that Wade got in his first two postseasons with Shaq (a lesser version).
Here are my highlights:
2000 Finals MVP - Shaq
2001 Finals MVP - Shaq
2002 Finals MVP - Shaq
And him winning those awards weren't even close....
And to clarify, Shaq wins none of those titles without Kobe on the team to take over down the stretch (since Shaq can be a late game liability). But it is clear to everyone who the man on those teams were and who was generally regarded as the better player. Shaq has been the best player of this era...either him or Duncan.
Now how many of those moments can you list for me as the #1 option...you know, the ones that led to advancement to the 2nd round? |
I'm sorry, I had to quote this because it was (bleep) hilarious.
But mostly wrong. |
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Luke
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 3616
Location: Deep Europe
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: |
So, they are bad, and you won't to give them away for Kobe ( with Tmac...). And if Yao is so bad, trade him here with Kobe : you will see how he is bad...Same for role players like Battier , Alston ( he has his problems out of the court but he is way better than Smush).
Last thing: you either are 18 years old or you haven't seen Kobe dominate playoffs games and series, even when Shaq was struggling or fading ... and you say he had "a bunch of success"
Take Wade vs dallas : Kobe did the same vs the Spurs more than once; take Lebron vs the Pistons : Kobe did the same if not more vs the Queens more than once. I could go on and on...
You should stop with this crap that you don't count what Kobe has done in the playoffs when Shaq was here. Who cares ? Shaq didn't shoot for him, didn't defend for him, didn't shoot his free trows, didn't take his last second shots... I don't care if Kobe hasn't won with scrubs or youngsters ( at least he has carried them into the playoffs in the West with Wiltesque performances...).
Bottom line Kobe is proven as a playoff animal, Tmac not. |
So you obviously don’t know the difference between playing with another great player to divert attention (especially a center, and the best one in the game who gets more attention that you) and playing with all the attention on you? Bottom line…since being option 1 and not having another star to rely on, Kobe has the same amount of postseason success as McGrady. |
Kobe played in indiana with Shaq fouled out and won on the road the game that took us 3-1.
-In the most important game of the 2000 championship run, game seven vs Portland, Kobe had more points, rebounds ( !) , assists, steals and blocks( !) than Shaq.
-In 2001 Popovich called Kobe the best player in the league and also called him 21 years Hall of Famer, after he dropped 45 points in his house.
-3 days before Kobe had 48 point and 16 rebounds at Arco Arena, to sweep the Queens.
I could go on for the entire day...
But this was Shaq with his magic powers :roll: |
I'm sure you could go on giving me sporadic individual highlights that Kobe got playing as the second option, off of Shaq. I can give you some of the same type games that Wade got in his first two postseasons with Shaq (a lesser version).
Here are my highlights:
2000 Finals MVP - Shaq
2001 Finals MVP - Shaq
2002 Finals MVP - Shaq
And him winning those awards weren't even close....
And to clarify, Shaq wins none of those titles without Kobe on the team to take over down the stretch (since Shaq can be a late game liability). But it is clear to everyone who the man on those teams were and who was generally regarded as the better player. Shaq has been the best player of this era...either him or Duncan.
Now how many of those moments can you list for me as the #1 option...you know, the ones that led to advancement to the 2nd round? |
Did you see only the Finals and not the playoffs ?
You are like the casual fans who believe that winning the finals MVP make you the best postseason player of your team !
Since now I know I'm speaking with a casual fan who knows something only about his team and then watch the Finals, I'm trying to explain to you how an NBA Championship is won.
Can you understand that the last few years ( things now are slowly changing, but we are speaking about 2000/2002) the teams in the East were weaker ( by far) than the teams in the west ?
Do you remember that beating S.Antonio and Tim Duncan ( whom you say is the best player of this era) was a little different from beating New Jersey or Philly in the Finals ?
So, there you go, Shaq Finals MVP are good for the record books ( just like Parker this year : do you think parker is the best player in SAntonio and Duncan is his new sideckick ? ), but not for who understands the game of basketball.
Shaq wins finals mVP 2001 , but Kobe is the best vs the Spurs, by far.
Shaq wins finals mvp 2002 vs nj, but Kobe is the one who cancels the Spurs in the fourth quarters, which the Spurs began up 10 points before Kobe took over
And the seven games vs Sacramento would not have even existed without Kobe's food poisoning , which lead to the losses in game 2 and 3. We were going to sweep them : our real threat every year was S.Antonio and Tim Duncan, who finally could beat us in 2003 ( with Kobe best player, who almost made us win the pivotal game five , thanks to a great comeback , most of which with Shaq on the bench).
Bottom line, Finals MVP are for casual fans, and you should understand, that while Shaq was the undisputed leader of our team, Kobe has been the best player in at least as many games as Shaq those years , but every year Kobe was going up and Shaq was fading, beginning from 2001. |
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C M B
Star Player
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 7803
Location: Westwood
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: |
So, they are bad, and you won't to give them away for Kobe ( with Tmac...). And if Yao is so bad, trade him here with Kobe : you will see how he is bad...Same for role players like Battier , Alston ( he has his problems out of the court but he is way better than Smush).
Last thing: you either are 18 years old or you haven't seen Kobe dominate playoffs games and series, even when Shaq was struggling or fading ... and you say he had "a bunch of success"
Take Wade vs dallas : Kobe did the same vs the Spurs more than once; take Lebron vs the Pistons : Kobe did the same if not more vs the Queens more than once. I could go on and on...
You should stop with this crap that you don't count what Kobe has done in the playoffs when Shaq was here. Who cares ? Shaq didn't shoot for him, didn't defend for him, didn't shoot his free trows, didn't take his last second shots... I don't care if Kobe hasn't won with scrubs or youngsters ( at least he has carried them into the playoffs in the West with Wiltesque performances...).
Bottom line Kobe is proven as a playoff animal, Tmac not. |
So you obviously don’t know the difference between playing with another great player to divert attention (especially a center, and the best one in the game who gets more attention that you) and playing with all the attention on you? Bottom line…since being option 1 and not having another star to rely on, Kobe has the same amount of postseason success as McGrady. |
Kobe played in indiana with Shaq fouled out and won on the road the game that took us 3-1.
-In the most important game of the 2000 championship run, game seven vs Portland, Kobe had more points, rebounds ( !) , assists, steals and blocks( !) than Shaq.
-In 2001 Popovich called Kobe the best player in the league and also called him 21 years Hall of Famer, after he dropped 45 points in his house.
-3 days before Kobe had 48 point and 16 rebounds at Arco Arena, to sweep the Queens.
I could go on for the entire day...
But this was Shaq with his magic powers :roll: |
I'm sure you could go on giving me sporadic individual highlights that Kobe got playing as the second option, off of Shaq. I can give you some of the same type games that Wade got in his first two postseasons with Shaq (a lesser version).
Here are my highlights:
2000 Finals MVP - Shaq
2001 Finals MVP - Shaq
2002 Finals MVP - Shaq
And him winning those awards weren't even close....
And to clarify, Shaq wins none of those titles without Kobe on the team to take over down the stretch (since Shaq can be a late game liability). But it is clear to everyone who the man on those teams were and who was generally regarded as the better player. Shaq has been the best player of this era...either him or Duncan.
Now how many of those moments can you list for me as the #1 option...you know, the ones that led to advancement to the 2nd round? |
Did you see only the Finals and not the playoffs ?
You are like the casual fans who believe that winning the finals MVP make you the best postseason player of your team !
Since now I know I'm speaking with a casual fan who knows something only about his team and then watch the Finals, I'm trying to explain to you how an NBA Championship is won.
Can you understand that the last few years ( things now are slowly changing, but we are speaking about 2000/2002) the teams in the East were weaker ( by far) than the teams in the west ?
Do you remember that beating S.Antonio and Tim Duncan ( whom you say is the best player of this era) was a little different from beating New Jersey or Philly in the Finals ?
So, there you go, Shaq Finals MVP are good for the record books ( just like Parker this year : do you think parker is the best player in SAntonio and Duncan is his new sideckick ? ), but not for who understands the game of basketball.
Shaq wins finals mVP 2001 , but Kobe is the best vs the Spurs, by far.
Shaq wins finals mvp 2002 vs nj, but Kobe is the one who cancels the Spurs in the fourth quarters, which the Spurs began up 10 points before Kobe took over
And the seven games vs Sacramento would not have even existed without Kobe's food poisoning , which lead to the losses in game 2 and 3. We were going to sweep them : our real threat every year was S.Antonio and Tim Duncan, who finally could beat us in 2003 ( with Kobe best player, who almost made us win the pivotal game five , thanks to a great comeback , most of which with Shaq on the bench).
Bottom line, Finals MVP are for casual fans, and you should understand, that while Shaq was the undisputed leader of our team, Kobe has been the best player in at least as many games as Shaq those years , but every year Kobe was going up and Shaq was fading, beginning from 2001. |
Correct on all accounts. If the unKobe scouts are still finding difficulty in reconciling this science, I'd like to remind that Tony Parker has an MVP. Identical scenarios.
It's heavily arguable that if the EC champions' frontline mismatches weren't so delightfully in Shaq's favor, Kobe would've snagged one or a couple of those "awards". |
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KobeRe-Loaded
Star Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 2792
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Kobe & Cook for TMac, Battier, and a 1st round pick.
Do it Mitch!!
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Formerly ShaqVonLaker circa 2000-2002 |
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Dreamshake
Star Player
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 4799
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | Yet McGrady can't get out of the first round with Yao Ming, arguably the best center in the league ATM. |
I don't see Kobe advancing with LA if his #1 center morphed into a different player in the postseason either. Yao & T-Mac have been to two postseasons. They lost to the better team in the first one (Mavs). Yao got outplayed by Okur and Boozer in the second one. You keep saying he has the best center in the game, but don't acknowledge that "the best center" got less boards, blocks and shot worse than Lamar Odom in the postseason.
And to other posters, yes..I watched the entire postseaosn during LA's title runs. I saw Kobe get off. I saw him have an easier time getting off because the defense couldn't fully focus on him (like they do now). As Kenny Smith once said, I saw the games best 1-1 player have a chance to go 1-1 often because he had a big physical presence in the middle that you just could not leave. Kobe did his part and LA doesn't win without him, but he clearly did not receive the attention that a #1 option usually gets (i.e. the attention he get's now) while Shaq was on this team. Why is that so hard to admit? During that time he was never regarded as the more dominant player (maybe best pound for pound, but never the most dominant as far as his impact..granted some of this has to do with his position). Using the Spurs series as an example, Kobe had an easier time because Shaq is down low, dealing with two 7 footers. Their main focus/defensive attention is geared there, not on Kobe. Kobe drives they can’t rotate to leave Shaq…similar to Wade now in Miami….similar to how it’s easier to double/trap Kobe when driving now because your team has no real low post threat.
No one is saying Kobe is garbage or that he wasn’t very important to the title runs (ala Pippen or Drexler for us in 95) or that he wasn’t a top 10 player during that time. I’m saying he is ALL OF THAT but he had the option to not receive the defensive attention that a player of his skillset usually gets when LA was winning. And since being put in the same position as T-Mac (bad to so-so roster, facing a better team in the postseason, #1 option receiving all of the defensive attention, etc) he has had the same amount of postseason success as T-Mac…NONE. I remember reading all kind of posts here about the things T-Mac/KG have done on a scrub team that would never happen to Kobe, and they keep happening 1 by 1. Kobe would never miss the postseason like T-Mac or KG (done). Kobe would never fail to get out the first round (done). A Kobe led team would never blow a 3-1 lead (done). Kobe is better than both of those dudes, but just like them…he needs help to win. I am assuming most here aren’t bashing Kobe for failing to advance in the 3 years that this team had been his, right? Y’all still think he is the best player in the game. You bash those guys yet don’t bash Kobe when he is doing the exact same thing they were in his situation.
So if we are sticking to the facts…yeah, Kobe has a lot of postseason success. However, all of his postseason success comes with him playing alongside another top 5 player (arguably #1 or #2 depending on where you put Duncan). Another guard (Wade) was able to dominate in the same manner playing next to Shaq. Another guard (Penny) did pretty well with Shaq…Orlando just lost to teams that actually had stars better than Shaq (Hakeem and MJ). |
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Dreamshake
Star Player
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 4799
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: |
Did you see only the Finals and not the playoffs ?
You are like the casual fans who believe that winning the finals MVP make you the best postseason player of your team !
Since now I know I'm speaking with a casual fan who knows something only about his team and then watch the Finals, I'm trying to explain to you how an NBA Championship is won.
Can you understand that the last few years ( things now are slowly changing, but we are speaking about 2000/2002) the teams in the East were weaker ( by far) than the teams in the west ?
Do you remember that beating S.Antonio and Tim Duncan ( whom you say is the best player of this era) was a little different from beating New Jersey or Philly in the Finals ?
So, there you go, Shaq Finals MVP are good for the record books ( just like Parker this year : do you think parker is the best player in SAntonio and Duncan is his new sideckick ? ), but not for who understands the game of basketball.
Shaq wins finals mVP 2001 , but Kobe is the best vs the Spurs, by far.
Shaq wins finals mvp 2002 vs nj, but Kobe is the one who cancels the Spurs in the fourth quarters, which the Spurs began up 10 points before Kobe took over
And the seven games vs Sacramento would not have even existed without Kobe's food poisoning , which lead to the losses in game 2 and 3. We were going to sweep them : our real threat every year was S.Antonio and Tim Duncan, who finally could beat us in 2003 ( with Kobe best player, who almost made us win the pivotal game five , thanks to a great comeback , most of which with Shaq on the bench).
Bottom line, Finals MVP are for casual fans, and you should understand, that while Shaq was the undisputed leader of our team, Kobe has been the best player in at least as many games as Shaq those years , but every year Kobe was going up and Shaq was fading, beginning from 2001. |
Hmm, seems like ya missed the point of the post completely...
| Dreamshake wrote: | | I'm sure you could go on giving me sporadic individual highlights that Kobe got playing as the second option, off of Shaq. I can give you some of the same type games that Wade got in his first two postseasons with Shaq (a lesser version). |
| Dreamshake wrote: | | Now how many of those moments can you list for me as the #1 option...you know, the ones that led to advancement to the 2nd round? |
Props to Kobe for his playoff success. He dominated in those games. I am a firm believer that another top guard could do the same next to Shaq. I'm not much for hypotheticals, but Wade has proved this to us.
How much success has Kobe had when he wasn't playing with another top 5 player that most consider better than him....i.e. in a situation comparable to what T-Mac has dealt with for the majority of his postseason runs? It doesn't make much sense for me to say I can drive faster than you when you are driving a Chevy Cobalt and I'm driving Porsche.... |
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Luke
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Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 3616
Location: Deep Europe
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Shaq has played 10 years without Kobe as the main partner, and he has won zero championships, except for that one rigged by the referees : Wade had 25 FT per game in the pivotal games, stuff never happened in the history of the NBA.
Just to make a comparison, Kobe in the same year vs dallas , with no Shaq and a weaker team, outplayed Wade's performances with much less free trows .
This should tell you that with Kobe instead of Wade, Shaq wouldn't have needed referees' help to win the championship.
So far, Wade without the FT , has only proven that he can't help Team USA win in international competitions, and that he couldn't beat Chicago and Detroit in the playoffs ; not that every all star guard would have won with Shaq. Penny couldn't, Eddie+Van Exel ( both all stars) couldn't. Wade without 100 ft per game ( the other years he played with him ) couldn't.
Bottom line , the great Shaq won fair and square only with Kobe. The other 10 years, with other partners, he couldn't take the trophy ( with that fake exception).
Tmac, instead has had less playoffs success than Pierce, Iverson, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Billups, J.O'Neal, Elton Brand... I could go on and on.
First option with the young Yao, second option with the "Yao=best C in the league" : nothing has worked so far with Tmac.
That's why you are salivating at the little possibility that Kobe could join forces with Yao.
You are ridicously reaching when you try to compare Kobe and Tmac in the playoffs, saying that Kobe with a NBDL team can't get it done vs the most talented team in the league ( with a two times MVP , 2 All NBA First team and another all star) : there are a ton of players in the middle between Kobe and Tmac... |
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Dreamshake
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Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 4799
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: | | Shaq has played 10 years without Kobe as the main partner, and he has won zero championships, except for that one rigged by the referees : Wade had 25 FT per game in the pivotal games, stuff never happened in the history of the NBA. |
Haven’t I already stated that Shaq wouldn’t have won any of those titles without Kobe? Did I say Kobe wasn’t an integral piece to each title (i.e. Pippen or Drexler)? How does any of that change the fact that he hasn’t had any postseason success without the big fella (and yes, post Shaq his teams haven’t been all that….similar to T-Mac).
But anyway, Shaq got to the ECF Finals and Finals pre Kobe. He lost to better teams, led by players better than him (MJ, Hakeem). He won another title in Miami with Wade..use whatever excuse you want to dismiss it but he did win again.
| Luke wrote: | Just to make a comparison, Kobe in the same year vs dallas , with no Shaq and a weaker team, outplayed Wade's performances with much less free trows .
This should tell you that with Kobe instead of Wade, Shaq wouldn't have needed referees' help to win the championship. |
When has LA played Dallas in the postseason in the last 3 years? I thought we were discussing postseason success…..
| Luke wrote: | | Bottom line , the great Shaq won fair and square only with Kobe. The other 10 years, with other partners, he couldn't take the trophy ( with that fake exception). |
LOL, so now Wade didn’t win his trophy fair and square?
| Luke wrote: | | Tmac, instead has had less playoffs success than Pierce, Iverson, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Billups, J.O'Neal, Elton Brand... I could go on and on. |
And without playing next to another top 5 player, Kobe has had less playoff success then all of them too!!!!
| Luke wrote: | | First option with the young Yao, second option with the "Yao=best C in the league" : nothing has worked so far with Tmac. |
I have already covered how mighty Yao was in the playoffs last season…so mighty that Lamar Odom outplayed him.
| Luke wrote: | | That's why you are salivating at the little possibility that Kobe could join forces with Yao. |
Wow, I would love to see a post where I say I wish Kobe was in a Rockets uniform.
| Luke wrote: | | You are ridicously reaching when you try to compare Kobe and Tmac in the playoffs, saying that Kobe with a NBDL team can't get it done vs the most talented team in the league ( with a two times MVP , 2 All NBA First team and another all star) : there are a ton of players in the middle between Kobe and Tmac... |
Just stating facts bruh….all of Kobe’s playoff success come with another top 5 player alongside him. He has never been out of the first round while carrying his own squad…. |
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Luke
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 3616
Location: Deep Europe
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: | | Shaq has played 10 years without Kobe as the main partner, and he has won zero championships, except for that one rigged by the referees : Wade had 25 FT per game in the pivotal games, stuff never happened in the history of the NBA. |
Haven’t I already stated that Shaq wouldn’t have won any of those titles without Kobe? Did I say Kobe wasn’t an integral piece to each title (i.e. Pippen or Drexler)? How does any of that change the fact that he hasn’t had any postseason success without the big fella (and yes, post Shaq his teams haven’t been all that….similar to T-Mac).
But anyway, Shaq got to the ECF Finals and Finals pre Kobe. He lost to better teams, led by players better than him (MJ, Hakeem). He won another title in Miami with Wade..use whatever excuse you want to dismiss it but he did win again. |
Kobe has played two playoffs series only without Shaq, and you consider those two series more important that the other 8 years in the playoffs ? How convenient...
Also you are ready to excuse shaq when he played vs superior teams, but you can't do the same with Kobe , who clearly had worse teammates and played a much stronger team for the two series he has played?
| Quote: | | Luke wrote: | Just to make a comparison, Kobe in the same year vs dallas , with no Shaq and a weaker team, outplayed Wade's performances with much less free trows .
This should tell you that with Kobe instead of Wade, Shaq wouldn't have needed referees' help to win the championship. |
When has LA played Dallas in the postseason in the last 3 years? I thought we were discussing postseason success….. |
Between Kobe and Tmac yes ; but now I was making an example for you, just to see that Kobe would have led Miami with Shaq and not only him ( Kobe had never the luxury to have the best defensive center in the league as backup !) to the championship sweeping Dallas withut the referees help.
Go and see the 62 points in 3 quarter or the 42 points with that incredible basket from the distance to take the lead for good. You should find it in youtube... Or you think that Avery was happy to be embarassed by Kobe in front of the National tv ?
| Quote: | | Luke wrote: | | Bottom line , the great Shaq won fair and square only with Kobe. The other 10 years, with other partners, he couldn't take the trophy ( with that fake exception). |
LOL, so now Wade didn’t win his trophy fair and square? |
Absolutely not . You win fair and square when the referees have only marginal influence on the outcome of the game, not when the refs decide to handle the game to you that absurd way.
| Quote: | | Luke wrote: | | Tmac, instead has had less playoffs success than Pierce, Iverson, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Billups, J.O'Neal, Elton Brand... I could go on and on. |
And without playing next to another top 5 player, Kobe has had less playoff success then all of them too!!!! |
They have played at least 100 games each, Kobe only a dozen, and with a far inferior team. Let's see Kobe with a real team ( I'd accept your not beloved Yao, not Wilt Chamberlain...)
| Quote: | | Luke wrote: | | First option with the young Yao, second option with the "Yao=best C in the league" : nothing has worked so far with Tmac. |
I have already covered how mighty Yao was in the playoffs last season…so mighty that Lamar Odom outplayed him. |
And this is not an excuse ? This is all what shows that Tmac is no Kobe !
When Shaq was struggling, Kobe took over.
Why Tmac didn't do the same with his top five center ?
By the way, if you want to trade Yao for Odom...
| Quote: | | Luke wrote: | | That's why you are salivating at the little possibility that Kobe could join forces with Yao. |
Wow, I would love to see a post where I say I wish Kobe was in a Rockets uniform. |
That would at least be consistent with all the wrong things are you saying about him...
| Quote: | | Luke wrote: | | You are ridicously reaching when you try to compare Kobe and Tmac in the playoffs, saying that Kobe with a NBDL team can't get it done vs the most talented team in the league ( with a two times MVP , 2 All NBA First team and another all star) : there are a ton of players in the middle between Kobe and Tmac... |
Just stating facts bruh….all of Kobe’s playoff success come with another top 5 player alongside him. He has never been out of the first round while carrying his own squad…. |
Is it a crime to win with a top five player or with a top center ( as other say speaking about Shaq/Kobe) ? Now Pierce has this opportunity ( he has a top five player and another superstar) , Tmac has his opportunity. Nash has his opportunity ( not that they haven't had others opportunities, expecially Tmac and Nash last year). Other will have their opportunity.
I hope Kobe can have his opportunity ( outside of the 3peat team) with the Lakers, but right now it doesn't seem likely... |
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Dreamshake
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Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 4799
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke wrote: |
Kobe has played two playoffs series only without Shaq, and you consider those two series more important that the other 8 years in the playoffs ? How convenient... |
I am not discounting anything. I am putting the accomplishments into perspective and stating facts.
| Luke wrote: | | Also you are ready to excuse shaq when he played vs superior teams, but you can't do the same with Kobe , who clearly had worse teammates and played a much stronger team for the two series he has played? |
Did I not say Kobe lost in the playoffs to teams that were better? The same goes for all of the teams that T-Mac lost to in the postseason. Funny you can give Kobe a pass on that one but not other like T-Mac. Funny how things change when the surrounding talent isn't all that, huh?
| Luke wrote: | | Absolutely not . You win fair and square when the referees have only marginal influence on the outcome of the game, not when the refs decide to handle the game to you that absurd way. |
Yes, because we never had anyone claiming LA was getting the whistle benefit during their title runs. Are you a Lakers fan or a Kings fan? You sound like they did in 2002.
| Luke wrote: | | They have played at least 100 games each, Kobe only a dozen, and with a far inferior team. Let's see Kobe with a real team ( I'd accept your not beloved Yao, not Wilt Chamberlain...) |
So which one of T-Mac's postseason teams was better than the team that he lost to in the playoffs? Why is not advancing due to the lack of help only a suitable excuse for Kobe?
| Luke wrote: | And this is not an excuse ? This is all what shows that Tmac is no Kobe !
When Shaq was struggling, Kobe took over.
Why Tmac didn't do the same with his top five center ?
By the way, if you want to trade Yao for Odom... |
LOL, please let me know when Shaq got outplayed on both ends of the court during the 3-peat run. Shaq put up 31 and 15 in 2000, 30 and 15 in 2001 and 29 and 13 in 2002 (playoff numbers). I doubt LA would win anything if Shaq suddenly started shooting 45% and giving up 30 a game to whoever he was guarding.
And I prefer Yao, but that doesn't change the fact that he wasn't even the best center in our playoff series last year.
| Luke wrote: | Is it a crime to win with a top five player or with a top center ( as other say speaking about Shaq/Kobe) ? Now Pierce has this opportunity ( he has a top five player and another superstar) , Tmac has his opportunity. Nash has his opportunity ( not that they haven't had others opportunities, expecially Tmac and Nash last year). Other will have their opportunity.
I hope Kobe can have his opportunity ( outside of the 3peat team) with the Lakers, but right now it doesn't seem likely... |
No, it's not a crime and it doesn't take away from the role Kobe played during the title runs (in which they get no rings without him). Just be honest and recognize the difference between studly postseason success when you have a ton of help, compared to someone who didn't. Be honest and recognize that once the help left the postseason advancement ceased...similar to other players in the same situation for years (i.e. T-Mac, KG).
And I hope he stays in LA as well.... |
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Ko8e8ryant
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 5282
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | Kobe & Cook for TMac, Battier, and a 1st round pick.
Do it Mitch!! |
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Luke
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Posts: 3616
Location: Deep Europe
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | Luke wrote: |
Kobe has played two playoffs series only without Shaq, and you consider those two series more important that the other 8 years in the playoffs ? How convenient... |
I am not discounting anything. I am putting the accomplishments into perspective and stating facts. |
I'm the one stating facts, you are milking facts and hersay...
| Quote: | | Luke wrote: | | Also you are ready to excuse shaq when he played vs superior teams, but you can't do the same with Kobe , who clearly had worse teammates and played a much stronger team for the two series he has played? |
Did I not say Kobe lost in the playoffs to teams that were better? The same goes for all of the teams that T-Mac lost to in the postseason. Funny you can give Kobe a pass on that one but not other like T-Mac. Funny how things change when the surrounding talent isn't all that, huh? |
This point was about Shaq and Kobe and you put Tmac in ? By the way Tmac and his team was the favorite last season vs the Jazz ( home court advantage and Tmac supposed far better than Jazz guards: even with a struggling Yao Tmac should have outplayed jazz guards...or Deron Williams has to be included in the list of the player better than Tmac in the postseason ?  ). Also in 2005 you were almost on pair with Dallas ( 5th seed vs 4th seed), while both series the Lakers played vs the Suns we were 7th vs 2nd seed : big difference . Tmac the last 3 years has not took advantage of his chances, while Kobe has not had his chances to be the leader of a competitive enough team to win. That's the difference and you don't ( or don't want...) to see it.
| Quote: | | Luke wrote: | | Absolutely not . You win fair and square when the referees have only marginal influence on the outcome of the game, not when the refs decide to handle the game to you that absurd way. |
Yes, because we never had anyone claiming LA was getting the whistle benefit during their title runs. Are you a Lakers fan or a Kings fan? You sound like they did in 2002. |
You did it again . Did you see ( or at least follow enough bskball news...) the series ? Kings complained for game six , but the Lakers heavily complained for game five, where the Kings had the game handled. The referees "helped" the series go to seven games, they didn't help a team win it.
| Quote: | | Luke wrote: | | They have played at least 100 games each, Kobe only a dozen, and with a far inferior team. Let's see Kobe with a real team ( I'd accept your not beloved Yao, not Wilt Chamberlain...) |
So which one of T-Mac's postseason teams was better than the team that he lost to in the playoffs? Why is not advancing due to the lack of help only a suitable excuse for Kobe? |
See above.
| Quote: | | Luke wrote: | And this is not an excuse ? This is all what shows that Tmac is no Kobe !
When Shaq was struggling, Kobe took over.
Why Tmac didn't do the same with his top five center ?
By the way, if you want to trade Yao for Odom... |
LOL, please let me know when Shaq got outplayed on both ends of the court during the 3-peat run. Shaq put up 31 and 15 in 2000, 30 and 15 in 2001 and 29 and 13 in 2002 (playoff numbers). I doubt LA would win anything if Shaq suddenly started shooting 45% and giving up 30 a game to whoever he was guarding.
And I prefer Yao, but that doesn't change the fact that he wasn't even the best center in our playoff series last year. |
That's why I said you know thing only because of hersay.
Shaq has been ouplayed on defense so many times it's not even funny. Others covered for his defensive problems ( just like ZO covered him in Miami).
Also as I said countless times, you should go back and see Lakers playoffs games vs SAntonio , just to understand.
Shaq has been outplayed by Tim Duncan so many times on both ends of the court...you should know better. But Kobe could get the job done, and the Lakers won 3 series vs one vs the Duncan's Spurs.
| Quote: | | Luke wrote: | Is it a crime to win with a top five player or with a top center ( as other say speaking about Shaq/Kobe) ? Now Pierce has this opportunity ( he has a top five player and another superstar) , Tmac has his opportunity. Nash has his opportunity ( not that they haven't had others opportunities, expecially Tmac and Nash last year). Other will have their opportunity.
I hope Kobe can have his opportunity ( outside of the 3peat team) with the Lakers, but right now it doesn't seem likely... |
No, it's not a crime and it doesn't take away from the role Kobe played during the title runs (in which they get no rings without him). Just be honest and recognize the difference between studly postseason success when you have a ton of help, compared to someone who didn't. Be honest and recognize that once the help left the postseason advancement ceased...similar to other players in the same situation for years (i.e. T-Mac, KG).
And I hope he stays in LA as well.... |
Every players needs help . MJ could do nothing without Pippen, Grant and then Rodman...
Now KG has his help. Let's see what he is going to do.
Tmac ? He has had his help for 3 years , he has arguably the best Center in the League and good role players , and so far he has failed to support his team.
If you want to believe that Kobe and Tmac are on the same boat just to comfort yourself, you can do it...
Last thing : stop speaking about Kobe, Shaq and the lakers until you have seen the most important games and the series vs S.Antonio. Watch them, there are plenty of places you could find them.
Then, we can be back to argue, if you want.
Byez |
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