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SoCalLaker
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Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 586
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 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Perspective |
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| LakerJam wrote: | | . By the logic of some, if you pay a prostitute for sex and she's not good at it, it gives you a right to be abusive to her. |
We've gone from parents fighting at little league games to paying prostitutes for sex.
| Quote: | | . Likewise, if you have a bad day or mess up at work, does that give your boss the right to curse you out and insult him? |
We are not the boss. We are the consumers and the Lakers are the product that we buy.
Coach Jackson would be more analogous to the boss. Funny thing is, if Phil called a timeout and jumped in the face of Kwame and started berating him for his lackadaisical play, no one would have a problem with that. In fact, they might even praise Coach Jackson for trying to "light a fire" in Kwame.
Funny thing is, if you read about how Phil used to treat Horace Grant, that was even worse. He used to single him out and just go off on him. He made him his target. But the Bulls won and it was great motivational tactics by Coach Jackson.
Get some fans booing Kwame and we get metaphors of societal problems and analogies to prostitutes having sex. |
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Gimme_the_rock
Star Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 2733
Location: To the left, To the left
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Perspective |
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| SoCalLaker wrote: |
Coach Jackson would be more analogous to the boss. Funny thing is, if Phil called a timeout and jumped in the face of Kwame and started berating him for his lackadaisical play, no one would have a problem with that. In fact, they might even praise Coach Jackson for trying to "light a fire" in Kwame.
Get some fans booing Kwame and we get metaphors of societal problems and analogies to prostitutes having sex. |
Paragraph 1 = Best point made in this thread ... by far.
Paragraph 2 = The way-over-the-top angle to express sensitivity. I realize it's politically correct and all but got to try to keep this in perspective.
The unhappiness with Kwame's play is meritted. |
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lionballer7
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1576
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Perspective |
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| SoCalLaker wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: | | . By the logic of some, if you pay a prostitute for sex and she's not good at it, it gives you a right to be abusive to her. |
We've gone from parents fighting at little league games to paying prostitutes for sex.
| Quote: | | . Likewise, if you have a bad day or mess up at work, does that give your boss the right to curse you out and insult him? |
We are not the boss. We are the consumers and the Lakers are the product that we buy.
Coach Jackson would be more analogous to the boss. Funny thing is, if Phil called a timeout and jumped in the face of Kwame and started berating him for his lackadaisical play, no one would have a problem with that. In fact, they might even praise Coach Jackson for trying to "light a fire" in Kwame.
Funny thing is, if you read about how Phil used to treat Horace Grant, that was even worse. He used to single him out and just go off on him. He made him his target. But the Bulls won and it was great motivational tactics by Coach Jackson.
Get some fans booing Kwame and we get metaphors of societal problems and analogies to prostitutes having sex. |
Isn't it funny that no one is really saying anything about Phil calling Kwame a knucklehead? But booing is absolutely classless? |
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easybreeze
Star Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1567
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Perspective |
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| Vandal08 wrote: | Fellas/Ladies...
Can we be better? Not the Lakers. Us. Can we? Can we be above the immature and irresponsible and have some levity here?
1. It's never as bad or good as we think. We were never as good as our record indicated, nor are we as bad as we played at times last night.
2. We are "observers" of a pro sport. As a former pro athlete, I have to tell you that while players appreciate the support of the 12th man or "6th" man in hoops, the players play for one thing only. THEMSELVES and the TEAM. Like it or not THEY are the team. They get the rings "WE" don't.
3. I'm a true OG, die hard Laker fan. I'm emotionally wrapped into them, but I understand the relationship. It's silly to attach my overall feelings about the city of LA or my own self-esteem or worth to what this team does or doesn't do. It's simply not healthy. Do I want them to win? Yes. But if they don't, I have my kids and a wife and a career. I'll move on, just as they will. It's supposed to be entertainment...not emotional stress.
4. Booing Kwame - I'm disheartened by this. Because to me it wreaked of being malicious. Say all that you will, but he is human. He has parents, he's a son and a brother..., etc. Ever try your hardest at something and it just doesn't go right? "Momma said there'd be days like this". Anyone? Or is it only Kwame and me who hadn't had a good day more than once in life. Is Kwame frustrating? Yes! I screamed at my tv on the missed dunk and thought to myself I've never seen so many missed dunks by a single player...EVER. But, he's still a person and should be afforded decency just as anyone else. It's not like he's "trying" to mess up. I believe he's giving the best he can while nursing two serious injuries. Think back to the "Inside Man" series against the Sun's where everyone was singing his praises or oh soooo long ago to the beginning of the season pre-injury when he was playing solid ball. Folks have amnesia. Boo the team yes...an individual player for missing a jump shot? That's reprehensible and really speaks directly to the societal shortcomings our nation suffers from. Really a low point in Laker lore. Yesterday's actions of a few was no different then the yelling, overzealous dad in the stands who get's into a fight at a little league game. No difference whatsoever.
5. It's only one game out of 82. These are professionals who will respond and play with pride in the next game. I expect our team to rebound and play a game similar to the way they played in the fourth quarter.
Unfortunately, I won't be in LA for any game soon but those that go...show some love for the Lakers...all of them. |
Good post.
Sounds like a case of herd mentality was going on at the staple center.  |
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Vandal08
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Posts: 717
Location: Paisley Park
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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People...this was simply a few thoughts I had. I'm not writing a paper for a professor and thus don't feel the need to explain each kernel because someone tries to analyize my post sentence for sentence. If people don't get it, you don't. Fine. The majority of people responding to this thread do.
I brought up 5 or 6 things to keep in perspective concerning yesterday's game. Just one of those referred to Kwame. This post is not solely about Kwame...there are countless other threads about Kwame. This post was to remind us all to relax because a lot of us felt the need to go over the deep end following this game. This included the over zealous lust with which people were overly eager to boo Kwame. Even when he simply got a pass. That was excessive IMO.
People have argued they thought we were good...well I'll choose to defer to what the players and coaches had been saying all season. Bottom line this team was always an ankle or sprained knee ligament from being a lottery team. With those types of margins you have to temper your enthusiasm. People thought the Cowboys were good or the Colt's. Ya'll think Portland is good? I just think a more even approach is the healthier way. But hey that is MY THOUGHTS. Those that choose to ride the wave that is the Lakers on every bouncing ball and want to pile on when you see that someone clearly is having a bad time, feel justified in that??? go ahead.
I just asked a rhetorical question. I guess...like I feel about our team, I think Laker fans are a cut above the rest. Not better, like our team we don't have to win all the time, but just different. We were a bit more classy. So many people choose to view things in the finite. The here and now. I mean as a Laker fan we have to be the most spoiled in the country. We have had more success than failure...I see the whole picture not just today. I'm willing to trust that things will eventually result in what it always has been for LA....a championship season. Along the way, we'll have 3 airballs in Utah, blown series leads, and players that don't always meet expectations. I just think it's a true journey, not just a little trip.
And no matter what, you ride or die with your team and it's players. That's all I was getting after. I'm no preacher, you don't have to think what I think, that's cool. It's what I think. If you with it fine, if not fine. I ain't mad acha.
At this point, I'm ready for the next game on the schedule.
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"For we look not at the things that are seen but at the things that are unseen. For the things seen are temporary and the things unseen are eternal" |
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Vandal08
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Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 717
Location: Paisley Park
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Gimme_the_rock wrote: | Good, well thought out and articulate post.
I disagree slightly with the Kwame-take.
Sure Kwame deserves decency. Absolutely. Yes, fans can be cruel and heartless.
But they're just "boos". It's part of the game.
And what this is really is a cumulative effect hitting it's boiling point.
A big reason is because Drew and Kwame represent opposite sides of the pendulum's swinging. One maximizing his talents and the other, regressing.
If the boos continue with relentless hard hearted flames, I will agree to the claim of cruelty.
Excuses have been made for Kwame by this Laker team, it's coach, the FO, and his fellow teammates since he's been in LA. They've done so very much to lower expectations, to keep him from falling under the same pressures that nearly crushed him in DC. They've done their part.
I just can't honestly say that Kwame has done his.
He's underarchieved vastly not merely in terms of fulfilling his potential and abilities on the court but in developing good practice and work habits.
As I wrote in another thread, he's done the least to take advantage of a true blessed opportunity.
And, to me, that's worthy of boos.
I agree that it shouldn't continue (that's my definition of cruelty) but that feeling sorry for people (myself included) is the worst thing to do for someone. Don't discount their troubles, worries, fears, or sorrows but balance between the two. |
good points all and spot on. I don't dispute this...the work ethic thing. again, thought the consistent and steady stream on him was a bit much. the culmination you refer to is probably valid as well, but still don't think it's right. I mean when you hear Phil say in all his years he's never seen this...that's gotta count for something.
People in general aren't cognizant of things like they used to be. It's just not exclusive at the game last night. People are all too eager to find a lightning rod or flashpoint for all that ails them. Right now that person is Kwame as it relates to our team. As if Kwame were gone we'd be an elite team. He's holding the franchise back. I just think to single out that dude the way our fans did was wrong.
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"For we look not at the things that are seen but at the things that are unseen. For the things seen are temporary and the things unseen are eternal" |
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TEEGUNN
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 17854
Location: rocky mountain high
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Great post(s), Vandal.
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"Why do you think bad things happen, anyway???" "So we have something good to look forward to."
Jake Speed, 1986 |
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targetman
Star Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 5343
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Perspective |
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| SoCalLaker wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: | | . By the logic of some, if you pay a prostitute for sex and she's not good at it, it gives you a right to be abusive to her. |
We've gone from parents fighting at little league games to paying prostitutes for sex.
| Quote: | | . Likewise, if you have a bad day or mess up at work, does that give your boss the right to curse you out and insult him? |
We are not the boss. We are the consumers and the Lakers are the product that we buy.
Coach Jackson would be more analogous to the boss. Funny thing is, if Phil called a timeout and jumped in the face of Kwame and started berating him for his lackadaisical play, no one would have a problem with that. In fact, they might even praise Coach Jackson for trying to "light a fire" in Kwame.
Funny thing is, if you read about how Phil used to treat Horace Grant, that was even worse. He used to single him out and just go off on him. He made him his target. But the Bulls won and it was great motivational tactics by Coach Jackson.
Get some fans booing Kwame and we get metaphors of societal problems and analogies to prostitutes having sex. |
Guess what? You aren't the coach and a coach calling our this player has no analogy to fans booing one player on a team before he makes a move. The headlines on one site were "Laker fans boo Kwame." How do you suppose that plays in a guy's motivation?
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Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst. |
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SoCalLaker
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Perspective |
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| targetman wrote: | | Guess what? You aren't the coach... |
Alright.
| Quote: | | ...coach calling our this player has no analogy to fans booing one player on a team before he makes a move. |
The analogies given were boss to fans..
The analogy I gave was boss to coach
Somehow you came up with an argument that there's no analogy between coach and fans. 
Maybe you felt a strong need to refute a claim never made....
Oh well, at least you meant to help, I guess............ |
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Legacy
Star Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 4418
Location: Southern Californ-I-A
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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This is a damn good discussion. The topic was begging to be started, but the OP and most of the responses in it made this thread a good one. It's not often I open a topic and agree 100% with the OP and his opinions, and then scroll down to find someone with a somewhat disagreeing post, and am in 100% agreement with them as well. Very unusual.
Anyway, most of what I thought while watching the game has already been said. In a nutshell, the OP was saying it is classless to boo a specific player/human being with such a hateful passion. Then there were posts touching on how fans would cheer that same player if he happened to have a good game the very next day. After thinking about that for a minute, I realized where my disapointment in the Laker fans that attended that game came from. It wasn't when Kwame missed a gimmie dunk, or when he turned the ball over on a five foot pass. It was in the middle, when he would simply touch the ball. Over and over, he got booed every time he caught a pass. Knowing his history in Washington, and with MJ, and then knowing he is our only healthy big man on our roster, and knowing how emotional Kwame Brown is, it made me sad and sick to see us booing him.
I know I'm not better that any other fan of any other team in the world, but I do understand the difference between booing a guy after making a bad play, and booing a fellow Laker simply to demoralize him. That's not me.
But everyone is different I suppose.
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"Look, people don't just call you a crackhead for 10 years for no reason. I mean, you're doing crack." (a personal response to another "officials are corrupt" thread)
PSN username: Bloo- |
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Downunder
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Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 267
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Perspective |
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| Vandal08 wrote: | Fellas/Ladies...
Can we be better? Not the Lakers. Us. Can we? Can we be above the immature and irresponsible and have some levity here?
1. It's never as bad or good as we think. We were never as good as our record indicated, nor are we as bad as we played at times last night.
2. We are "observers" of a pro sport. As a former pro athlete, I have to tell you that while players appreciate the support of the 12th man or "6th" man in hoops, the players play for one thing only. THEMSELVES and the TEAM. Like it or not THEY are the team. They get the rings "WE" don't.
3. I'm a true OG, die hard Laker fan. I'm emotionally wrapped into them, but I understand the relationship. It's silly to attach my overall feelings about the city of LA or my own self-esteem or worth to what this team does or doesn't do. It's simply not healthy. Do I want them to win? Yes. But if they don't, I have my kids and a wife and a career. I'll move on, just as they will. It's supposed to be entertainment...not emotional stress.
4. Booing Kwame - I'm disheartened by this. Because to me it wreaked of being malicious. Say all that you will, but he is human. He has parents, he's a son and a brother..., etc. Ever try your hardest at something and it just doesn't go right? "Momma said there'd be days like this". Anyone? Or is it only Kwame and me who hadn't had a good day more than once in life. Is Kwame frustrating? Yes! I screamed at my tv on the missed dunk and thought to myself I've never seen so many missed dunks by a single player...EVER. But, he's still a person and should be afforded decency just as anyone else. It's not like he's "trying" to mess up. I believe he's giving the best he can while nursing two serious injuries. Think back to the "Inside Man" series against the Sun's where everyone was singing his praises or oh soooo long ago to the beginning of the season pre-injury when he was playing solid ball. Folks have amnesia. Boo the team yes...an individual player for missing a jump shot? That's reprehensible and really speaks directly to the societal shortcomings our nation suffers from. Really a low point in Laker lore. Yesterday's actions of a few was no different then the yelling, overzealous dad in the stands who get's into a fight at a little league game. No difference whatsoever.
5. It's only one game out of 82. These are professionals who will respond and play with pride in the next game. I expect our team to rebound and play a game similar to the way they played in the fourth quarter.
Unfortunately, I won't be in LA for any game soon but those that go...show some love for the Lakers...all of them. |
POST OF THE YEAR!
This would be the ideal 1millionth post |
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