The MVP Double Standard
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:47 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
However, if that is the case, then either Kobe, Garnett, Paul or Duncan have to win the award this season. Lebron's Cavs are a mediocre team in a weak conference, why is the race between he and Kobe in all of the polls? If those were the guidelines Lebron's name shouldn't even be in the discussion. The criteria has suddenly changed.



The polls you are talking about are polls of fans, and their opinion isn't going to affect how the sportswriters vote.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:47 am    Post subject:

One thing I'm tired of hearing is that LeBron's team would be number 10 in the West with their current record in the East. I just want to point out if they played in the West from Day One that their record would most likely be worse than it is now, which would mean not 10th best in the West, but perhaps 11th or 12th best. No regurgitated Hollinger 2 game difference responses please. We all know that that is just an outright insult to the Western Conference. You cannot just count records when you're trying to develop an argument. You have to look at fatigue and wear and tear from constantly battling tough west opponents in combination with their record percentages.

Last edited by phenotul on Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kobi-wan-kenobi
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:48 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
Lebron is the most ball dominant player in the game right now, his usage is well above Wade's and Kobe is a distant third.


They have an actual stat for that? Do you have a link?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:51 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:


venturalakersfan wrote:
There has been no double standard, the winner has consistently been from a team that won at least 50 games and finished with a top 3 seed in their conference.


I agree that this has been the main criteria in every MVP award since Jordan won it in the late 80s. Players have come close but no player who was not a part of an elite team has won it since that season. However, if that is the case, then either Kobe, Garnett, Paul or Duncan have to win the award this season. Lebron's Cavs are a mediocre team in a weak conference, why is the race between he and Kobe in all of the polls? If those were the guidelines Lebron's name shouldn't even be in the discussion. The criteria changed for some voters, and I have a guess why.



Kobe has been mentioned in MVP discussions the previous 3 years or so as Lebron is being discussed. But I go back to my previous post, no one has voted for the MVP, so there is no double standard. Everything has been similar since the early 80's.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject:

That post was kick ass.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:59 am    Post subject:

Great post J.C. I suffer from ADD ..J/K... but I read the whole post. It's laced with stats and seems well researched. However with all the furor being raised concerning Kobe I think he'll get the nod this year. Public opinion shouldn't be a part of the equation.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:00 am    Post subject:

Good job JC!!

The owners of this site should sticky this!!

I would keep it at the top for ALL THE MEDIA to read!!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject:

Great post J.C., but I think the way it's going right now he'll get it. Kobe did actually get the first place votes when Nash got his second one. Actually our Warriors writer voted for him that season at the newspaper I work at. It wasn't like people were totally ignoring him. But I think for the most part you nailed it.
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:08 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
The polls you are talking about are polls of fans, and their opinion isn't going to affect how the sportswriters vote.


The fans didn't create the voting choices. The media outlets who will be voting on them did. And in three recent polls the only options were Kobe and Lebron. When you hear members of the media discussing the race the only names you hear are Kobe, Lebron and Paul.

Kobe-wan-kenobi wrote:
They have an actual stat for that? Do you have a link?


There is Usage Rating, which is an indication of the percentage of possessions you use for your team. That takes into account assists, turnovers, shot attempts, and free throws. The easiest way to view it would be to use Hollingers Stats on ESPN.com and click on the Usg to sort by it. Kobe has been in the top three in Usage five times in his career, and led the league in it two seasons ago when he averaged 35.4 points per game. At the moment ESPN.com is having issues so I'm using the basketball-reference.com version for this post since I'm heading to bed in a few minutes. Theirs is slightly different number wise but has the same results basically):

1. Lebron (34.0)
2. Wade (32.8)
3. Kobe (31.8)
4. Carmelo (30.7)
5. T-Mac (30.1)
6. Ginobli (29.6)

No other player is above 28.9.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:09 am    Post subject:

Can't be anything but a double standard.

Kobe lead a medicore team to some win but not an overall great record, the naysayer are like "Well, his team isn't winning enough so he doesn't deserve the awared"

LeBron have a mediocre record in the terrible eastern conference and if he was in the west, his team wouldn't even be in the playoffs right now, but the LeBron lovers are like "He's carrying that team on his back, that deserves my vote for MVP "

Kobe's been carrying the Lakers on his back for 4 years now and got his team to the playoffs in a better overall conference from top to bottom, but since the Lakers didn't have a great overall record, he's been denied any MVP's. Can't be anything but a double standard.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:15 am    Post subject:

Very well written, JC.

I have a gut feeling that Kobe will win the MVP Award this year.

He is the front runner at this moment.

If we perform well during the upcoming, tough 4-game road trip (at New Orleans, Houston, Dallas, Utah) with a record of... say 3-1, then the MVP Award is a lock for him.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:17 am    Post subject:

JC,

Excellent post. I would like to add that Kobe does average the same amount of point as Lebron. If you calculate the two extra shot attempt Lebron takes (kobe's 2fgm and 3fgm will change) and the two extra minutes (will change the ftm), the points are the same. Lebron and Kobe are both excellent rebounder in there respective position. Lebron is a better passer but kobe is a better defender.

Analyis,

Kobe & Lebron are dominating the league this season. Not the Bogus stat Hollinger showing the public that LEBRON IS ALL ALONE DOMINATING THE LEAGUE TODAY.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:51 am    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
This whole idea that Kobe used to be some kind of media darling is by and large a myth. They didn't like him even before Colorado and the Lakers breakup. But as a champion, it's hard to hate or justify hating on him. Once those things happened, they had an excuse to be openly hostile and they were.

You know how people really feel about you not when things are great, but when they're bad. Shaq got a free pass out of LA. He became the victim in the breakup of the Lakers. Even in his last days in Miami and now in Phoenix, they are going out of their way not to criticize him, not to blame him for anything. Why?? Cause they love the guy and from beginning to now have always given him the benefit of the doubt, right or wrong. On the flip side, Kobe got it ALL. All the blame, all the anger, all the hostility. It's easy to do when you didn't like the person to begin with.




Yep
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
PDX_LAKERFAN wrote:
The only question that I have is how much of an impact does the triangle system have on our players and their FG% increase. I have no doubt that Kobe has an effect on this but shouldn't some of the credit go to the system as well?


Quite of those guys played listed (Mihm, Odom, Butler, Atkins, Jones, Profit) saw that increase under Rudy T's motion offense.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject:

JC -

Even though I can't say that I agree with every single word in your post - I am not going to argue details as you hit that nail right on the head:

DOUBLE STANDARD.

Mods - thanks for stickying this post. It summarizes pretty much what the Lakers fan feels.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:55 am    Post subject:

Great post...members of the media like Hollinger are why people stop reading/listening and watching the news. I hate reading everything that comes form him and have vowed to never read it again. They have an agenda...his being to get other people to recognize LBJ as MVP, while NEVER recognizing anything Kobe ever does.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:12 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
So let's see so far in this thread you've said I have a paranoid obsession and that I'm a chicken little. And then on top of all that, this is your argument? Your diplomatic skills need work.


Kobe is the frontrunner for the MVP, but you're convinced that he is going to get screwed out of the award because . . . well, I guess because you think people don't like him and will find excuses not to vote for him. It's just pure paranoia, not anything of substance. Yes, you're being a Chicken Little.

J.C. Smith wrote:
First off 17.6% of the voters left Kobe off their ballot completely that year. 17.6% decided he wasn't top five material. A total of two people left Nash off their ballots (1.6%), and 5 left Lebron off theirs 4%.


The Lakers didn't win 50 games in '06. The Cavs and Suns did. You may not like it, but for a lot of voters 50 games is the litmus test. Some voters excluded him for that reason. Whether you agree or not, it's a legitimate viewpoint.

If I recall correctly (I posted the numbers in a previous thread), 10 voters left Nowitzki (the third place finisher, who you skip) completely off their ballots. Basically, you have a progression going down the list: 2, 5, 10, 22.

If the Cavs finish at 45-37, and Lebron still wins the MVP, you'll have a point. Until then, you're just being paranoid because a handful of people in the media are picking Lebron. A lot more of them are picking Kobe. As of now, the "double standard" doesn't even exist.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject:

laorellana2003 wrote:
Great post...members of the media like Hollinger are why people stop reading/listening and watching the news. I hate reading everything that comes form him and have vowed to never read it again. They have an agenda...his being to get other people to recognize LBJ as MVP, while NEVER recognizing anything Kobe ever does.


HOLLINGER CAN KISS MY A**!!!


Unfortunately, the attitude of the modern media is the create the news from nothing.

These days, traditional media is NOT about presenting the facts and letting people determine their own opinions, now it's about manipulating public opinion and sensationalizing events to create more interesting news.

I swear, I quit reading newspapers about two years ago. I do look about once a month if I see one in a coffee shop but rarely even then anymore.

I do my best to avoid the major media. There is one local TV news channel that I watch because they try so hard to keep opinions out of it. They have actually fired 3 or 4 newscasters over the last couple years who couldn't help from inserting their opinions in things.

I NEVER watch national news because those people are so agenda laden, they are a joke. Like Dan Rather!! Too bad he got it the way he did, but that guy was a colossal ego driven jerk. Most of them are.

Point is, the same thing that is happening to Kobe with the media right now, has overtaken all corners and all subjects of the media.

All the media wants is to sway public opinion and be right about everything.

The internet is better because you get every angle, not just a bunch of manipulating rich bastards who are wanting to get richer!

For news, if things are important enough to care about, I will occasionally read the most left wing and the most right wing websites in order to see both sides of the equation and then I start looking for public discussion on it. You can usually get to the facts that way and come away with a fair view of what is really happening. At least you see things from multiple perspectives.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
There has been no double standard, the winner has consistently been from a team that won at least 50 games and finished with a top 3 seed in their conference.
So why is LeBron in the mix? His team has 37 wins, and is currently the 4th in their Conference. The mere fact that given the Lakers and Cavs relative W/L, and Conference positioning, but NONE of these guys are saying James is out of the running because CLE doesn't fit that criteria is direct, concrete evidence of a double standard!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:27 am    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote;
Quote:
You know how people really feel about you not when things are great, but when they're bad.


I'll admit to harboring animosity towards Kobe after the Shaq trade. I've since, a lessoned learned. Not being privy to pertinent facts when making judgments allows one a seat in the fools corner and fitted with the pointed cap.
Quote:
Why?? Cause they love the guy and from beginning to now have always given him the benefit of the doubt, right or wrong.


I too thought Shaq's going to Phoenix was good for Phoenix, looks as though I was wrong again. Seems as though Kobe's saying Shaq's not working out and staying in shape was a truism. Phoenix is, I believe, 2 & 4. I'll also admit to the above statement. His personality is magnetizing, he's still making commercials.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject:

Very well done post. If I had authroed that I wopuld consider e-mailing it to every media person that I saw who was picking Lebron. It might make a difference, it might not. But at least a voice of reason would have been heard.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject:

re4ee wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
There has been no double standard, the winner has consistently been from a team that won at least 50 games and finished with a top 3 seed in their conference.
So why is LeBron in the mix? His team has 37 wins, and is currently the 4th in their Conference. The mere fact that given the Lakers and Cavs relative W/L, and Conference positioning, but NONE of these guys are saying James is out of the running because CLE doesn't fit that criteria is direct, concrete evidence of a double standard!


The same reason Kobe was in the mix the last three years.

The original post would have been good if it was made after LeBron won the MVP. As it is, it just pushes the agenda of the Kobe fanboi parade, which states that there is this an unwarranted bias against Kobe, extending from the media to the referees to Stern himself, depending on who you talk to!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:57 am    Post subject:

former_statman wrote:
re4ee wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
There has been no double standard, the winner has consistently been from a team that won at least 50 games and finished with a top 3 seed in their conference.
So why is LeBron in the mix? His team has 37 wins, and is currently the 4th in their Conference. The mere fact that given the Lakers and Cavs relative W/L, and Conference positioning, but NONE of these guys are saying James is out of the running because CLE doesn't fit that criteria is direct, concrete evidence of a double standard!


The same reason Kobe was in the mix the last three years.

The original post would have been good if it was made after LeBron won the MVP. As it is, it just pushes the agenda of the Kobe fanboi parade, which states that there is this an unwarranted bias against Kobe, extending from the media to the referees to Stern himself, depending on who you talk to!
You missed my point. The last two seasons, there were a number of these reporters consistently used the Lakers record to argue against Kobe being MVP material, while this season, NONE are saying the same thing about LBJ. That IS a double standard, whether you want to admit it or not!

You find me ONE article/commentary that argues against LBJ as MVP based on his teams record/seeding, and I'll soften my conviction a bit, but you will never find the mainstream arguments like there was against Kobe's MVP eligibility based on the Lakers' record the past 2 seasons.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:03 am    Post subject:

re4ee wrote:

You find me ONE article/commentary that argues against LBJ as MVP based on his teams record/seeding, and I'll soften my conviction a bit, but you will never find the mainstream arguments like there was against Kobe's MVP eligibility based on the Lakers' record the past 2 seasons.


There are a bunch of articles that do exactly that. All you have to do is look at the other Kobe MVP thread (did we really need another one?) and read the quotes. For example (right on the very last page, the first thing I saw):

Quote:

C. Broussard (ESPN) - Kobe camp
Here's how I see it right now. LeBron looks great individually, but unless the Cavs win 50 games, I don't think he'll get it.


Obviously it's coming down to record. If the Cavs had the same record as the Lakers, LeBron would be a no-brainer choice. His stats are much better than Kobe's and his team is worse.

It sounds like people just see what they want to see. If you think there is a leaguewide agenda against Kobe, so be it.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:26 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:


venturalakersfan wrote:
There has been no double standard, the winner has consistently been from a team that won at least 50 games and finished with a top 3 seed in their conference.


I agree that this has been the main criteria in every MVP award since Jordan won it in the late 80s. Players have come close but no player who was not a part of an elite team has won it since that season. However, if that is the case, then either Kobe, Garnett, Paul or Duncan have to win the award this season. Lebron's Cavs are a mediocre team in a weak conference, why is the race between he and Kobe in all of the polls? If those were the guidelines Lebron's name shouldn't even be in the discussion. The criteria changed for some voters, and I have a guess why.



Kobe has been mentioned in MVP discussions the previous 3 years or so as Lebron is being discussed. But I go back to my previous post, no one has voted for the MVP, so there is no double standard. Everything has been similar since the early 80's.


Thanks captain obvious. I think we're all well aware that there hasn't been a vote yet. Is this your idea of insight?
The OP is talking about the perceived double standard that exists in what certain members of the media are saying in the lead up to the award. Did you somehow miss that? Are we somehow simpletons for caring and discussing it?
The majority of your posts sound as if you are speaking from the mountain top to us silly little people down at the bottom. It's kind of tedious.
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