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kentu_tiro
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 Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: An unconventional lineup that's quite scary. |
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Imagine on offense Lamar Odom at the point along with Fisher, Kobe at the wing. Add that to Pau at the 4 and Bynum at the 5.
This is just on offense. Odom can handle the PG duties and we've seen him do that a lot of times in the past. Fisher can play the off-guard which he's played in the past with Utah and GSW. Playing the 2 enables Fish to get to his shooting spots. Odom is not a solid shooter anyway so it's better for him to initiate the offense rather than play off the ball and spot up. Kobe plays the wing, putting him in optimum scoring position and or make plays for his bigs. Gasol can play the high post and open up the paint for Kobe, LO and Bynum. We know he's comfortable with the 15 footers anywhere around the basket. That will be a great asset. And then you have Bynum posted down low and anticipating lobs or drop passes off of penetration.
Imagine that! Forgetting about all this talk about getting the ideal small forward to play with Kobe, Pau and Bynum I am quite intrigued and excited to see how these guys make it work. It's unconventional in the sense having a 6'10" PG, a 6'0" off guard a 6'6" SF and 2 7 footers in the front line. I know mobility may be a concern (mainly on defense) but I think the rewards outweighs the risks. There's more strength to this lineup than weakness. The key is Kobe taking over the SF position on offense. Kobe will have to play more from the outside along with Fish and cut down on stagnating the offense with 1 on 1 plays.
Then on defense we crossmatch and move back to a conventional match up (Fisher and Kobe at the back court and LO, Pau and Bynum at the front line). Again while mobility may be a concern, the rewards outnumbers the risks. The length of that lineup alone (except for Fisher who is 6 flat) is pretty scary. And on this side, Bynum is the key. So long as Bynum plays the way he's played prior to the injury where he's effectively deterring penetrating guards I think we will be fine. Then you can put Gasol where he's effective the most which is as a weak-side help defender.
And I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons why we won't see any moves this summer. The Lakers FO and coaching staff would like to see how this lineup pans out first before making any drastic changes. Besides all the ideas thrown around to get that ideal SF are pipe dreams anyway. I dunno about you guys, but I am anxious and excited to see how this thing works out.
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Megatron24
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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i see nothing really new in this thread.
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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When I saw the title of the thread, I immediately thought 'oh boy, here comes another 'put Odom at point guard' thread.
The same Odom who has been stripped of initiating duties on more than one occasion. |
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DoubleClutch
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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I like this conventional lineup better:
Hinrich
Kobe
Deng
Pau
Bynum
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| This has been suggested a million times, but Odom can't play PG effectively. |
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cinimod
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Where ever you put Odom on offense, it's going to be difficult to hide his inability to hit a jumpshot consistently... |
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drzucchini
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | When I saw the title of the thread, I immediately thought 'oh boy, here comes another 'put Odom at point guard' thread.
The same Odom who has been stripped of initiating duties on more than one occasion. |
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Critical Beatdown
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Per 100 possessions, we're winning 118-102 with LO on the floor, and losing 109-111 without him. (updated: 4/1/09; source: 82games.com) |
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im_back
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| DoubleClutch wrote: | I like this conventional lineup better:
Hinrich
Kobe
Deng
Pau
Bynum |
we wish |
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kentu_tiro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | This has been suggested a million times, but Odom can't play PG effectively. |
Actually that's why you should put Odom as the lead guard/initiator. That way you have Fisher able to setup to his sweet spots. The biggest thing that Odom will need to work on is his cuts to the basket. On occasion he can pick and roll with Gasol but mostly he needs to work on making good cuts to the basket. It will be a huge sacrifice for Odom but if he wants to stick to this team, he has no other choice but to make it work.
And yes this has been suggested a number of times but folks continue to be in denial about it. I for one was a strong proponent of the "stud SF" search. But it just ain't happening now. So we need to accept the fact that this is how things will look like and come to some common ground.
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| kentu_tiro wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | This has been suggested a million times, but Odom can't play PG effectively. |
Actually that's why you should put Odom as the lead guard/initiator. That way you have Fisher able to setup to his sweet spots. The biggest thing that Odom will need to work on is his cuts to the basket. On occasion he can pick and roll with Gasol but mostly he needs to work on making good cuts to the basket. It will be a huge sacrifice for Odom but if he wants to stick to this team, he has no other choice but to make it work.
And yes this has been suggested a number of times but folks continue to be in denial about it. I for one was a strong proponent of the "stud SF" search. But it just ain't happening now. So we need to accept the fact that this is how things will look like and come to some common ground. |
Odom has been given the lead guard/initiator role on more than a few occasions and he failed every time.
It's been tried.
It has never worked. |
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kentu_tiro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| cinimod wrote: | | Where ever you put Odom on offense, it's going to be difficult to hide his inability to hit a jumpshot consistently... |
And I agree with you. That's why you put him where he can be the most effective without taking away from the Pau/Bynum combo. In the triangle he's most comfortable playing the 4. But with Pau and Bynum possibly playing together, where else would you put Odom (other than in a Kings or Bulls uniform)?
You can't put him in the SF position because shooting and slashing to the basket (creating off the dribble) are 2 of his key weaknesses. The guy can't create off the dribble without committing an offensive foul! He can't be the off guard position because he becomes entirely useless and will just mess up the spacing.
Which leaves us with the PG initiator position. Let Fisher and Kobe spot up outside. Have Odom jump start the offense, set picks, make cuts to the basket, help the offensive rebounding and on occasion pick and roll with Gasol to get to paint. Why with Gasol or Bynum? Because Lamar has an advantage on mobility against the PFs and Cs. He can slash to the basket on this manner without the risk of an offensive foul.
Lamar at PG has failed before because teams knew he will only pass to Kobe and he can't make an outside shot. But that doesn't mean he'll have the same bad luck with this lineup. I recognize the issues he'll have but he won't suck like in the past.
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kentu_tiro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: |
Odom has been given the lead guard/initiator role on more than a few occasions and he failed every time.
It's been tried.
It has never worked. |
I still think it's worth giving it a try this time around with the new lineup. I'm hopeful the 3rd time is a charm.
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Btw, Fisher is a good 6' 1". 
Oh and Odom can shoot probably just about as well as Kidd from the outside....
After 14 seasons Kidd is a career 40% even shooter!!! I would imagine Odom could accomplish that much anyway.
We won't consider Odom's overall FG% since many of his shots are inside but just to compare the career stats for the two players from beyond the arc: Kidd 33.7, Odom 31.4. Not a big difference really.
Up till now Odom has been tried first of all as what Phil called a "Point Forward" then he has been moved to the conventional PF and now he is supposed to be the SF next year.
The "Point Forward" job was on a team that had a lot of rookies or second year players with a number of injuries to players. Not a fair test.
The "Power Forward" job was successful considering Odom led the league in rebounding among all forwards.
Whatever position Odom plays next year it seems fair to wait and see before deciding it won't work before it is even tried.
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Last edited by LA_Lakers_Rule on Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tamakin
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| DoubleClutch wrote: | I like this conventional lineup better:
Hinrich
Kobe
Deng
Pau
Bynum |
Disgusting. I'm glad you don't have Mitch's job. Yikes. |
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | Btw, Fisher is a good 6' 1".
Oh and Odom can shoot as well as Kidd from the outside....
After 14 seasons Kidd is a career 40% even shooter!!! I would imagine Odom could accomplish that much anyway.
We won't consider Odom's overall FG% since many of his shots are inside but just to compare the the career stats for the two players from beyond the arc: Kidd 33.7, Odom 31.4. Not a big difference really.
Up till now Odom has been tried first of all as what Phil called a "Point Forward" then he has been moved to the conventional PF and now he is supposed to be the SF next year.
The "Point Forward" job was on a team that had a lot of rookies or second year players with a number of injuries to players. Not a fair test.
The "Power Forward" job was successful considering Odom led the league in rebounding among all forwards.
Whatever position Odom plays next year it seems fair to wait and see before deciding it won't work before it is even tried. |
You can't expect to be taken seriously if you are going to mention Kidd and Odom in the same sentence. Everything Kidd does is light years ahead of Odom. In fact, Kidd is even a better rebounder at the 1 than Odom is at the 3.
Odom has been tried at point forward and point guard and point tall person and point bald person. Fail x 4. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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^ I am NOT comparing Odom to Kidd OTHER THAN EACH PLAYERS SHOOTING.... If YOU had BOTHERED TO READ....
Btw, you can't be taken seriously if you think I was comparing Odom to Kidd as far as conventional PG's.
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kentu_tiro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| tamakin wrote: | | DoubleClutch wrote: | I like this conventional lineup better:
Hinrich
Kobe
Deng
Pau
Bynum |
Disgusting. I'm glad you don't have Mitch's job. Yikes. |
Actually that's the pipe dream scenario. But it is what it is, a pipe dream. So we deal with what is real now. And that Odom is a Laker and there is no other place to put him but back to that PG initiator position regardless if it worked in the past or not. We have Fisher now compared to Smush Parker before who also has a pathetic outside shooting clip. So hopefully Fisher can make up for Odom's difficulties. What I like about Odom at the PG is he can push the ball up the court and setup the offense early. We can still have those early offense opportunities.
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| And what's the point of comparing their shooting? |
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kentu_tiro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | | And what's the point of comparing their shooting? |
I think his point is there are PGs that have excelled in the playmaking aspect of the game without being a good shooter. But then again of course you can't compare Kidd and Odom's playmaking abilities. But that doesn't affect the fact that Odom does have playmaking abilities. And that's something he can bring to the table with this lineup without being much of a liability or altering the plan at the front line.
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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The topic is not to say that Odom is a "CONVENTIONAL" PG... Clearly ODOM IS NOT prototypical PG... We can all agree on that....
The topic is not to say that Odom is anywhere near as good as the "better" PG's in the league either.... We can agree on that....
The topic starts out with "unconventional lineup".... In case some of you didn't notice.... Odom at the PG is "unconventional"... we can agree on that...
The question IS whether a line up that includes Bynum at center, Gasol at PF, Kobe at SF and Fisher at SG will work with an "unconventional" PG like Odom.
And IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN THE BIGGEST COMPLAINT IS AND WILL BE THAT ODOM CANNOT SHOOT FROM THE OUTSIDE.
Have there been PG's in the league who have not been really good shooters from the outside.... I think we can agree that answer to that is "yes"....
Actually considering that Kobe, Bynum, Gasol and Fisher are all very good shooters I'm not so sure that this is so important.... Which was my point in the first place.
There has been all this talk about a SF who can shoot.... I think we can all agree that Kobe can shoot....
There has been all this talk about spreading the floor.... I think we can agree that Fisher setting up in the corners WILL spread the floor....
As far as defense the OP has already said that the players would switch and play their more conventional opposing players...
I think this is basically WHAT THE OP HAS SAID but all we get are some who still want to complain about Odom's shooting for the most part which as I and the OP point out is worth a try since it may not be as important with the line-up the Lakers can put on the floor.
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RG73
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| kentu_tiro wrote: | | But that doesn't affect the fact that Odom does have playmaking abilities. And that's something he can bring to the table with this lineup without being much of a liability or altering the plan at the front line. |
Odom has playmaking abilities, sure. He also can turn the ball over a lot. Which is exactly what he does the more he has the ball in his hands. You see dramatic reductions in his TOs when he is not in a playmaking position.
I'm not really sure I see the point of having a guy average 5 or 6 assists as a playmaker and 4 TOs. Kobe turns it over enough--you can't have 2 guys averaging over 3 TOs per game, which is exactly what happens when both Kobe and Odom are in the backcourt together. So it is totally irrelevant whether or not Odom has playmaking abilities--he also has amazing turnover abilities. If he could average say 8 assists to 2 TOs, sure. But if he could do that, he'd be a point guard already. |
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postandpivot
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | Btw, Fisher is a good 6' 1".
Oh and Odom can shoot probably just about as well as Kidd from the outside....
After 14 seasons Kidd is a career 40% even shooter!!! I would imagine Odom could accomplish that much anyway.
We won't consider Odom's overall FG% since many of his shots are inside but just to compare the career stats for the two players from beyond the arc: Kidd 33.7, Odom 31.4. Not a big difference really.
Up till now Odom has been tried first of all as what Phil called a "Point Forward" then he has been moved to the conventional PF and now he is supposed to be the SF next year.
The "Point Forward" job was on a team that had a lot of rookies or second year players with a number of injuries to players. Not a fair test.
The "Power Forward" job was successful considering Odom led the league in rebounding among all forwards.
Whatever position Odom plays next year it seems fair to wait and see before deciding it won't work before it is even tried. |
| Quote: | Oh and Odom can shoot probably just about as well as Kidd from the outside....
After 14 seasons Kidd is a career 40% even shooter!!! I would imagine Odom could accomplish that much anyway.
We won't consider Odom's overall FG% since many of his shots are inside but just to compare the career stats for the two players from beyond the arc: Kidd 33.7, Odom 31.4. Not a big difference really. |
to much wisdom in this post i can't see. its blinding me.  |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | | And what's the point of comparing their shooting? |
Wow I guess you aren't paying attention to the "knock" on Odom on this board....
And I guess you didn't pay attention to this specific thread either I guess.
| cinimod wrote: | | Where ever you put Odom on offense, it's going to be difficult to hide his inability to hit a jumpshot consistently... |
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RG73
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: |
And IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN THE BIGGEST COMPLAINT IS AND WILL BE THAT ODOM CANNOT SHOOT FROM THE OUTSIDE. |
He can't shoot and he turns the ball over. The combination is exactly why he isn't a point guard or a point forward. He can't drive right terribly well either.
Point guards rely on their ability to dribble penetrate (either way), and/or hit an outside shot, and/or their ability to make more plays than turnovers.
Odom has the unique combination of being able to drive on one side only, miss outside shots, and turn the ball over as often as he makes a play (when forced into being the primary playmaker). This combination is why he cannot be a primary playmaker (although he's an excellent secondary playmaker). |
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