East round 1: New York @ Sweden
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Sky
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:13 pm    Post subject:

The next time there is no salary, it's draft 10 guys and coach.

I appreciate you playing and the passion you brought Pivot. The bad draft slot put you in a hole that was tough to escape from.

On the game plan. I think you were defintitely hurt by no defensive game plan for zone rules. You had the talent to be lethal in a zone. But since you never mentioned a zone I can't just assume one for you and therefore you go man and that underutilized your talent. No transition D plans against a team running 75% of the time hurt you as well. So the it's not about no game plan argument, I disagree. You had strategic weapons available to you that went unused and imo would have won the game.

You had a game plan on offense with UCLA high low, and for most of the game it worked. I had Pierce beating Rodman perimeter, Moses low, Webber passing and scoring. It took a hard double with Camby fronting and Sheed doubling on the lob from Pierce to limit Moses. Malone's passing skills were so poor that it's unrealistic to think he passes out of a very long aggressive double to release valve kickouts that are covered. Only open man is Webber ft line and the 2 can sag off Eddie to pick it. Moses can't get it out on a consistent basis. It works some, it's turnovers some, it's deflected or lobbed most. That pass is also telegraphed, which allows Eddie's man to cheat to Webber even more.

Beyond all that though, your assumptions are based on man up context or easy passing lanes. Webber is open but Malone has Sheed and Camby right on top of him and a defender that can leave EJ and sag to Webber, won't be easy. You talk of Prince on Schrempf but after a baseline two stagger screen Detlef is open. Then the final assumption, that Moses is automatically there for 5-on-5 anchor. Malone gets beat like a drum downcourt and as good as your defenders are they are defending 5 with 4 and Magic has the ball. And Malone did get run on and tire. Not just a theory.

If there was a transition D scheme that stops Magic and denies passing over the top then you shut them down. But I can't assume that on your behalf when it's never mentioned. Another weapon unused.

You absolutely had the talent to win this game, but there's no game plan on defense beyond 1-4 p/r trap, leave Rodman and Payton and Jones passing lanes. That's why you lost. It's not names, it's the absence of specific plans, particularly on defense, that would have worked and won you the game.

If my judging was about names then why did I vote against Harlem with Jordan and Duncan and for no name Manila? Against Washington with Shaq, Santa Barbara with West and Worthy? I voted for teams with superior game plans. Your offensive plan was, UCLA high low worked all game. It's the lack of a mentioned adjustment for Moses double team with easy releases denied, the lack of a mentioned zone plan, a mentioned transition D plan that were the seeds of your destruction. You relied on your player opinion carrying it, no need for much of anything else. The plans that would have won the game go unused and with me anyway that is why you lost.

Again, thanks for playing and for your passion.
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postandpivot
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject:

Sky wrote:
The next time there is no salary, it's draft 10 guys and coach.

I appreciate you playing and the passion you brought Pivot. The bad draft slot put you in a hole that was tough to escape from.

On the game plan. I think you were defintitely hurt by no defensive game plan for zone rules. You had the talent to be lethal in a zone. But since you never mentioned a zone I can't just assume one for you and therefore you go man and that underutilized your talent. No transition D plans against a team running 75% of the time hurt you as well. So the it's not about no game plan argument, I disagree. You had strategic weapons available to you that went unused and imo would have won the game.

You had a game plan on offense with UCLA high low, and for most of the game it worked. I had Pierce beating Rodman perimeter, Moses low, Webber passing and scoring. It took a hard double with Camby fronting and Sheed doubling on the lob from Pierce to limit Moses. Malone's passing skills were so poor that it's unrealistic to think he passes out of a very long aggressive double to release valve kickouts that are covered. Only open man is Webber ft line and the 2 can sag off Eddie to pick it. Moses can't get it out on a consistent basis. It works some, it's turnovers some, it's deflected or lobbed most. That pass is also telegraphed, which allows Eddie's man to cheat to Webber even more.

Beyond all that though, your assumptions are based on man up context or easy passing lanes. Webber is open but Malone has Sheed and Camby right on top of him and a defender that can leave EJ and sag to Webber, won't be easy. You talk of Prince on Schrempf but after a baseline two stagger screen Detlef is open. Then the final assumption, that Moses is automatically there for 5-on-5 anchor. Malone gets beat like a drum downcourt and as good as your defenders are they are defending 5 with 4 and Magic has the ball. And Malone did get run on and tire. Not just a theory.

If there was a transition D scheme that stops Magic and denies passing over the top then you shut them down. But I can't assume that on your behalf when it's never mentioned. Another weapon unused.

You absolutely had the talent to win this game, but there's no game plan on defense beyond 1-4 p/r trap, leave Rodman and Payton and Jones passing lanes. That's why you lost. It's not names, it's the absence of specific plans, particularly on defense, that would have worked and won you the game.

If my judging was about names then why did I vote against Harlem with Jordan and Duncan and for no name Manila? Against Washington with Shaq, Santa Barbara with West and Worthy? I voted for teams with superior game plans. Your offensive plan was, UCLA high low worked all game. It's the lack of a mentioned adjustment for Moses double team with easy releases denied, the lack of a mentioned zone plan, a mentioned transition D plan that were the seeds of your destruction. You relied on your player opinion carrying it, no need for much of anything else. The plans that would have won the game go unused and with me anyway that is why you lost.

Again, thanks for playing and for your passion.


not all about any names, but names vs hated names in my case. like i said, i knew i was in for a doozy when i picked pierce, webber, and jones. those 3 are gifts and curses all at once (perception wise). the fact that peopel didn't get the fact that dennis rodman scoring 8 pts vs pauls 20+ and the fact that paul would've been able to hang out and double/sit in passing lanes, and just play free safety all game when rodman was in was missed. i could see that in those arguments about dennis vs paulina in that other thread. remember that thread was made before we all knew we had to place judgement on other teams. i saw the mentality of what people thought would happen. and how they made an attempt to write off the fact that he chose the wrong era with his lineup vs my lineup. that right there signed his pizza(if you know what i mean) . but no one aside from myself could see that. that was amazing to me. I had others look at our atl league and i asked them the same question specifically about that matchup amongst other things (after we both submitted our writeups and i also had them look at the rules(which they thought were great and crazy at the same time). each person from the outside that read what i wrote and read what my opponent wrote and looked at both teams, then looked at that paulina vs dennis the menace thread. all came back with the same verdict. "dude dennis will be in foul trouble because he chose the wrong era. he can't sit back because pierce will light him up. so when he plays close its a foul trouble situation. if its a foul trouble situation on our sf, and you have to double our Center, and as we both stated webber is doing damage from the high post in. lets forget eddie is WIDE open(since you want to pack it in). forget Gp can still push it and wasn't going to try to post up in that zone for the most part(which was stated) but will drive and dish a bit). lets forget those 2. thats his defense being compromised.

if moses doesn't have to use much energy on defense except for boxing a guy out because camby is not going to hit him for 20 pts. he's energized to kill on the glass(which you stated a bit early), and also to fight thru the double teams from time to time(which you stated a bit early in the game).

aside from magic and tmac(who is not going to be nearly as lethal playing off the ball even with the magical man setting people up). who else is a true to life scorer int he paint when you need buckets? NO ONE. if magic is in the post. its the wrong era(which i stated), he wont have to be hard doubled which would open up passes for him. a guy would sit in the paint and wait for him to turn then double. no room for cutters to cut. quiet as kept he didn't have a team full of cutters anyway. and pierce is sittign in that lane daring dennis to catch and shoot(which was stated). their offense as crazy as it sounds(even with magic running it) would freeze up a lot, and it would turn into a jumpshooting competition. sheed(who would be kg like money), camby who would hit a few, tmac who would hit some big 3's from time to time(again remember i'm not leaving him wide open like i am dennis(this was stated). So do you really think they could shoot and make enough jumpers with their bigs to win? if you did a probability equation the answer would be less then 50% of the time. jumpers from your bigs that often =tough loses every time when said team is playing vs a team that they are not better then even on paper.

on and onto detlef. detlef smetlef i dont care what screens he came off of. its not like prince doesn't have GREAT PICK N whatever Defense. ask coach K. he had prince telling the team how to play it better. So, GP, eddie, pierce, prince(are you trying to tell me those names couldn't slow down any kind of pick n pop scenario or even stagger screen scenario. of course they could and would. you're not picking off guys that only get steals when its a terrible pass thrown across the court(dwade, bron) we're talking about shut it down defenders. new YAWk cab drivers should've won that game by 10, if it was a series of 7 games(new school LOL) 4-2 new Yawk Taxi cab drivers win. the only real defense was in the zone defense. you cant rely on just a zone when you have liabilities like magic and tmac at the top length or no length. neither one of them are defenders. and yes vs quicker guys they're also liabilities.

So lock down perimeter defenders that can sit in a zone for resting purposes and to make his team jumpshooters(which i stated). but can also play man (which i stated). and can sag completely off of one perimeter guy (SF rodman). it means you have great defense vs adequate defense. you have good(at minimum) offense vs lets say good offense.

well if my math is correct. great de + good O trumps adequate de + good o. and again if all else fails. i had enough big gamers off the bench (which i stated) who could shot us out of a zone if we ever went down. So again. I'm not seeing it fellas. but I'm still glad you guys took the time to do this league thing. i didnt not know it was this serious going in. and when i made my quick votes. even though i was making them quickly. i couldn't go as quick as i wanted to because a lot of teams were even. or a lot of guys with superior teams messed up and chose the incorrect eras. or those who had what looked like superior teams actually had superior players at each position, but the TEAM concept was not there. there's a reason I was hot when whoever tha was gave grant hill to the same team with Mjay instead of giving him nique.
giving him grant hill is the equivalent of giving him pippen. point forwards who can play serious defense who can also score on their on with the best of them if push comes to shove. you give him nique so it spoils team chemistry. aint no way on earth nique and mjay can co-exist for a win vs another allstar bunch that was place together in a team concept.

like i said. salary caps fellas. and one more idea. that hit me when i was reading the sky semi play by play. you know how we do the crstyal ball thing. scratch it. This is what you do. you come up (by use of gameplans/matchups) with a score going into the half, then one going into the 4th, then one going into the last 5 minutes. take away some of the other categories to make this work. once say Sky tells you what the score is and whats the main thing happening (magic is killing you with his post play or passes or fastbreaks). Then you make your quickie 3 sentence tops argument to stop the bleeding and take the lead back or atleast tie it up. only the coach thats down gets this oppurtunity. yes its fair. the only time both coaches get a chance to chime in is at the 5min mark in the 4th. closing the game out.

because the thing about basketball. i can do crystal ball stuff, but the sign of a great coach is not just the preparation. its also the IN GAME adjustments. we saw pjax lose a series where he made a couple of bad in game adjustments or non at all. even though we know he's best at perparing his players(whoever they may be) for a playoff game going in.

the best coach does both well.


oh and kudos to all the coaches that did show the play diagrams i love that. you should've let me out the 1st rd i had something for you.
sure i could've did this in the 1st but they didn't deserve this. they were not good enough in this era to win even without me showing you this to be super exact.



this what you guys were going to get in rd two and i wasn't done.


Quote:
Playname : Eagle ucla

http://www.jes-basketball.com/animated/poffensemaneagleucla.html

USe this play with a lineup of Cliff Robinson & Webber. even though webber will be primarily playing the 5 spot when cliff is in with him. on this particular play webber is the 4 man cliff is the 5 man. it means you have to honor his shot. it also means paul pierce is in the post. it also means eddie jones is on the weakside waiting for an open jumper or a slash to the basket for a rebound/putback or a nice pass and layup/dunk. thats the way the play is setup to end. but while the play is developing, you have options early.

1. you can hit pierce off the curl screen at the ft line extended and he can pull up or drive to the basket.

2. you can hit gp off the curl screen at the ft line extended and he can pull up or drive to the basket (and make a decision based on how the defense is playing it. he is a pg.

3.you can hit pierce off the curl screen in the post on the first strong side he gets to early in the play.

4.you can hit Gp off the curl screen in the post on the first strong side he gets to early in the play.
5.you can hit pierce off the curl screen in the corner on the first strong side he gets to early in the play. so he can shoot the 3

6. you can hit Cliff (5)before he makes his cut from the high post. and he can pull up with cwebb down there for a board, or he can pass it to cwebb in the low post.

7.you can let pierce cutting baseline take his man with him, then its a weakside eddie jones to GP in the post 2 man game.
8.you can let Cwebb take the high post jumper
9. you can let Cwebb kick it out to Cliff for the 18 footer
10. or eddie jones can see that his man is no longer guarding him because of all the action going on. so he pulls up. there's nice rebounding balance low, mid and himself high if he follows his own shot.

Playname : 3 double staggered

http://www.jes-basketball.com/animated/poffenseman3doublestaggered.html

this play can be used with any lineup. but preferably the startes. this is paul pierce for 3 play.
but the 2nd option is to get the ball to either the pf or center in the post/paint. either one. nice quick hitting play out of a timeout, to start a qtr, with and to see if the defense is sleeping or not.

Playname : 54 high post back door

http://www.jes-basketball.com/animated/poffenseman54highpostbackdoor.html

This is pretty much the type of stuff we will be running all game long when we use webber as our PF(pg). i'm not going to go into detail, but you can see each and every option here.
and 2 they didnt' show. cwebb for the jumper and cwebb for the drive. this is how you bust up a packed in zone. you still cut inbetween the seems of a tight zone

Playname : Double screen low
http://www.jes-basketball.com/animated/poffensemandoublescreenlow.html

This is another play where i would switch positions with Webber in this play being the 5 man and Moses being the 4. the point is obvious i darn near never want moses playing the high post or anywhere outside of 8 feet with the ball in his hand making passing decisions. thats not his forte, so we wont force him to do that. thats cwebbs duty
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jamas33
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject:

this what you guys were going to get in rd two and i wasn't done.


Quote:
Playname : Eagle ucla

http://www.jes-basketball.com/animated/poffensemaneagleucla.html

USe this play with a lineup of Cliff Robinson & Webber. even though webber will be primarily playing the 5 spot when cliff is in with him. on this particular play webber is the 4 man cliff is the 5 man. it means you have to honor his shot. it also means paul pierce is in the post. it also means eddie jones is on the weakside waiting for an open jumper or a slash to the basket for a rebound/putback or a nice pass and layup/dunk. thats the way the play is setup to end. but while the play is developing, you have options early.

1. you can hit pierce off the curl screen at the ft line extended and he can pull up or drive to the basket.

2. you can hit gp off the curl screen at the ft line extended and he can pull up or drive to the basket (and make a decision based on how the defense is playing it. he is a pg.

3.you can hit pierce off the curl screen in the post on the first strong side he gets to early in the play.

4.you can hit Gp off the curl screen in the post on the first strong side he gets to early in the play.
5.you can hit pierce off the curl screen in the corner on the first strong side he gets to early in the play. so he can shoot the 3

6. you can hit Cliff (5)before he makes his cut from the high post. and he can pull up with cwebb down there for a board, or he can pass it to cwebb in the low post.

7.you can let pierce cutting baseline take his man with him, then its a weakside eddie jones to GP in the post 2 man game.
8.you can let Cwebb take the high post jumper
9. you can let Cwebb kick it out to Cliff for the 18 footer
10. or eddie jones can see that his man is no longer guarding him because of all the action going on. so he pulls up. there's nice rebounding balance low, mid and himself high if he follows his own shot.

Playname : 3 double staggered

http://www.jes-basketball.com/animated/poffenseman3doublestaggered.html

this play can be used with any lineup. but preferably the startes. this is paul pierce for 3 play.
but the 2nd option is to get the ball to either the pf or center in the post/paint. either one. nice quick hitting play out of a timeout, to start a qtr, with and to see if the defense is sleeping or not.

Playname : 54 high post back door

http://www.jes-basketball.com/animated/poffenseman54highpostbackdoor.html

This is pretty much the type of stuff we will be running all game long when we use webber as our PF(pg). i'm not going to go into detail, but you can see each and every option here.
and 2 they didnt' show. cwebb for the jumper and cwebb for the drive. this is how you bust up a packed in zone. you still cut inbetween the seems of a tight zone

Playname : Double screen low
http://www.jes-basketball.com/animated/poffensemandoublescreenlow.html

This is another play where i would switch positions with Webber in this play being the 5 man and Moses being the 4. the point is obvious i darn near never want moses playing the high post or anywhere outside of 8 feet with the ball in his hand making passing decisions. thats not his forte, so we wont force him to do that. thats cwebbs duty
[/quote]

MY WRITEUP

OPPONENT: New York Knicks
INTRO:
Washington strength is a great starting lineup on paper. How this translates on the court remains to be seen. Biggest mistake by Washington is making their most lethal weapon (West) Their main playmaker. For all the great offensive talent they have, their defense leaves a lot to be desire. Elvin Hayes as a Defensive 2nd Team player is a JOKE. Wes Unseld a power player at 6-7??? Donít put in Ruland because his slow feet will be exposed by someone as explosive as Amare. Question: Can they score inside? Hayes? Wilkes at 6-6 was able to dominate him defensively in the Finals. We can cover him with a 6-9 Prince or his worst nightmare, The greatest defensive force in the history of the NBA, Bill Russell. Arenas need to dominate the ball to be effective (this will alienate the other players) Let Hill dominate the ball and Arenas sulks. Defensively team is too small and too slow to hang with the out of this world athleticism of Erving and Amare and the speed of Parker, Hardaway, Sprewell. As if this isnít bad enough, they will spend 12 minutes chasing Petrovic around. Leave him open for a split second and he drains a three.

MINUTES:
Tim Hardaway 30 minutes
Latrell Sprewell 34 minutes
Julius Erving 40 minutes
Amare Stoudemire 32 minutes
Bill Russell 40 minutes
Tony Parker 18 minutes
Drazen Petrovic 12 minutes
Mark Aguirre 10 minutes
Buck Williams 16 minutes
Tayshaun Prince 8 minutes
Steve Smith As Needed
Brad Miller As Needed

TEAM ROTATION:
The Starters Starters: Hardaway, Sprewell, Erving, Stoudemire, Russell
Defensive Posse: Hardaway, Prince, Erving, Williams, Russell
Speed Posse: Parker, Sprewell, Erving, Prince, Stoudemire
Trapping Posse: Hardaway, Sprewell, Erving, Prince, Russell
Halfcourt Posse: Parker, Erving, Aguirre, Buck, Russell
Three Point Posse: Parker, Petrovic, Erving, Prince, Russell

SETS:
Offense
Power Offense 35 %


Zipper Offense 30 %


Four Down 15 %


Fast Break 20 %
Defense
Man to Man 70 %
Full Court 15 %
Half Court Trap 15 %

OFFENSE
Goal
1. Establish Dr J Early. Using the Power Offense to Isolate J at the wing
a. On the power offense, if Jís man gets pick off it isolates him in the wing with the slower Hayes/Unseld/Ruland/Brown/Jones Ė what does this spell? F-O-U-L or T-W-O P-O-I-N-T-S.
b. On the power offense, Hardaway or Parker has the option to hit Amare or Russell with the mismatches when they flash to the key (Amare vs Hll/Mashburn or Russell vs Arenas/Sloan) spell it for me again. F-O-U-L or T-W-O P-O-I-N-T-S.
2. Continue Establishing the wing players (Erving/Sprewell) using the Zipper Offense (Picks come from high post, after getting hit with Picks coming from the wing on the Power Offense). 1st Option is Erving on one wing or Sprewell on the other wing 2nd Option is Hitting Russell or Stoudemire flashing in the key.
3. We will run the four down offense with the three point posse lineup.
a. Parker vs Porter (when he subs)
b. Erving vs Anyone
c. On the three point line will be Petrovic @ .449 Parker at .395 (When Erving plays the Iso) or Prince @ .386
4. Fastbreak when situations dictates. Russell/Buck/Erving or Russell/Amare/Erving will have a rebounding advantage

IF/THEN: is covered by the different options each offense presents vs his defense.
DEFENSE
Goal
1. Man to Man Matchup:
a. Amare vs Hayes (Amareís explosiveness and athleticism will give Hayes more problem than a 6-6 inch Jamaal Wilkes did in the FINALS)
b. Russell vs Unseld (Will allow Russell to help out, Wes is not a big offensive threat and Russellís quickness and anticipation basically nullifies Unseldís bull like tendencies (Can you spell F-O-U-L O-U-T)
c. Erving vs Hill (Erving 1st team all defensive year. More athletic and stronger)
d. Sprewell vs. Arenas (Classic battle. Sprewell has been known to have the ability to shut down people, Can Arenas even stop anyone?)
e. Hardaway/Parker vs West (West will get his the hard way. Play him for the outside shot and let him penetrate where he will run into his BIGGEST playoff nightmare named Bill Russell.
2. On our Defensive or Trapping Posse (Whenever Prince is in the game)
a. Use Prince on the Point Guard (West or Porter) Princeís length, athleticism and quickness for a SF will bother both players and slow down their offensive sets.
CLOSING
The Nets have the different lineup to use in situations.
Substitution Pattern will be as needed and will reflect the combination of players to form the Posse.
HOW TEAM ROTATION WILL BE USED:
Need to step up the defense of need a key defensive stop: Defensive Posse
Need to Run and Gun: Speed Posse
Need to spread floor ĖIdeal for four down offense: Three Point Posse
Slow Down and Run a Half Court Set: Halfcourt Posse
We need to cause turnovers: Trapping Posse

The Starting Five will close out each half.

IN CASE OF EMERGENCY
Russell gets in foul trouble: Stoudemire moves to C and Buck Williams to PF
Dr J gets in Foul Trouble: We use Aguirre who is more than capable of taking the scoring load or Prince for increase in defensive intensity
Any of the guards get in trouble: Depth at PG with a Finals MVP as the backup
if Sprewell gets in foul trouble, we will bring in Drazen for his murderous three point shot or Prince for defensive intensity.

CRYSTAL BALL
We feel that Washington will depend on their West, Arenas, Hill, Mashburn to make plays. We feel we have the necessary players to defend them and hurt them on the offensive side. If they go with Porter at PG, we will force Porter to be the offensive weapon by playing ball denial to the SG (West, Arenas) and SF (Hill, Mashburn). If they try to establish an inside game, Russellís dominance will manifest itself.

WHY WE WIN:
1. Superior Talent
2. Defensive Intensity
3. Gameplan that exploit their weakness
4. A Bill Russell team is one of the hardest team to beat in the NBA Playoffs.
5. Greatness begets Greatness.
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TIME
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject:

postandpivot, I think your problems started when you chose friends to evaluate the game for you that start their evaluation with, "Dude..."
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:16 pm    Post subject:

Dude... where's my car?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject:

Hated names. ok, I had the comic relief on Pierce, but where was his game hated, where was his game underrepresented? It wasn't. He succeeded all game long perimeter until he had to sit. I agreed with you on Rodman in new rules. He has to lay off perimeter with no hand checks, but Dennis being an exceptionally smart defender can funnel him off penetration. He has to live with Pierce taking jumpers but he isn't fouling out off penetration, he's smarter than that has space to react and has the All-D rep that reduces the foul hit. Per my writeup, Pierce hits those jumpers all night.

Pierce playing off Rodman to jump passing lanes wasn't missed. He can do that all he wants, just one problem, Malone isn't underneath he's at halfcourt and Sweden has numbers in trasition/early offense.

Payton is going to drive and dish into a packed zone with Moses inside? Not with much succcess as a finisher. Some in kick outs but the zone wings are staying home.

True to life scorer? Moses isn't back yet and Sweden has numbers. Malone glass? Does well but there's a lot of jumpers going up with a zone d sinking. Lot of long boards.

Prince is going through stagger screens baseline consistently? Yeah ok.

Sit in a zone and wait ok. You stated that but you never stated what zone. They just play zone, you know, just whatever. No. I'm not bailing you out, you provide the zone or you don't get one. You tossed us a bone on offense but not defense. And that cost you the game.

In-game adjustments, I'd love to do that live, but that stretches games out forever. It would take weeks to get a game done that way. Maybe we could do that in a final. I don't doubt that you could make in-game adjustments very effectively. But in this game you got the rules, you have to anticipate adjustments you don't just get to react. I'm not going to spoonfeed you scenarios you have to provide specific plays and adjustments in advance. You have to do a good job of predciting what you will face. You have to at least do enough to give me what zone and an adjustment out of the Moses double that you knew would come. You chose not to do it.

As for outside friends, if the analysis focuses solely on head to head sure, that's what you're doing, that's what they're doing. Does that analysis assume Moses is underneath? Yes. But he's not there. Does that analysis account for Rodman playing off him and funneling? No. I have friends that have looked at this too and they said the same thing I did. He does a game plan he wins. I can't fill in the blanks you chose to leave blank Pivot.

Nice game plan. If you did that a week ago it would mean something now.

I understand your head to head points and agreed with you on nearly all of them. Now please understand mine. Without specifics I can't help you. I can't assign you a zone, I can't give you a Moses adjustment, I can't give you a transition D scheme. In-game adjustment wouldl be great but that's not this game. You have to give me specifics in advance. Some you did and they worked. Some you didn't and they cost you the game.


Last edited by Sky on Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:03 pm    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
and one more idea. that hit me when i was reading the sky semi play by play. you know how we do the crstyal ball thing. scratch it. This is what you do. you come up (by use of gameplans/matchups) with a score going into the half, then one going into the 4th, then one going into the last 5 minutes. take away some of the other categories to make this work. once say Sky tells you what the score is and whats the main thing happening (magic is killing you with his post play or passes or fastbreaks). Then you make your quickie 3 sentence tops argument to stop the bleeding and take the lead back or atleast tie it up. only the coach thats down gets this oppurtunity. yes its fair. the only time both coaches get a chance to chime in is at the 5min mark in the 4th. closing the game out.

because the thing about basketball. i can do crystal ball stuff, but the sign of a great coach is not just the preparation. its also the IN GAME adjustments. we saw pjax lose a series where he made a couple of bad in game adjustments or non at all. even though we know he's best at perparing his players(whoever they may be) for a playoff game going in.


It's an interesting concept. I don't know how feasible it is or not but it's an interesting idea. I know a lot of people addressed it with if/then type of things where they would anticipate a potential issue.

It's hard to anticipate everything, especially when a coach has multiple zones or doing something unique with a switch. I tried to think about what the most obvious adjustments a player or coach would make when some of that wasn't present. But a number of people did do a pretty good job of saying "if X, then Y" ... and that certainly made it easier to picture how the game would flow.

But I could see later rounds when there aren't as many teams and maybe the competition is much closer where you could do that sort of long-distance chess match, where adjustments are briefly written up and made after each quarter.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:11 pm    Post subject:

Sky wrote:
Hated names. ok, I had the comic relief on Pierce, but where was his game hated, where was his game underrepresented?


My Pierce/Rodman comic relief was certainly just that. I had Pierce coming on strong late in the game like he often does, but the outcome in my mind was already mapped out...so I took a little creative license at the end. I also didn't clown on CWebb. I thought he'd be effective against a zone with his midrange and passing...but a weak link defensively on the two-man games. A couple player's "choke factor" never came into it for me, since I saw other guys handling a lot of that load late in the game.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:04 pm    Post subject:

I'm sorry to say this but time to move on.... Don't take the joy out of this game by complainin why you lost.. its done.. move on... I saw another game where another team deserves to win and I could tell the other GM felt the same way... but those are the breaks... What is better than being a gracious winner? being a good loser... if I'd lost.. I'd move on.. so I think there is a time when the complainin why you lost need to stop...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:09 pm    Post subject:

Simple case of overestimating Pierce and far underestimating Rodman. Pierce is closer to Joe Johnson than Kobe or LBJ.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:09 pm    Post subject:

Sky, DB and the 4 other coaches don't have to explain to anyone of us why they voted the way they did.. when you start questioning it and saying they are wrong.. or they mistook your gameplan or other kinda excuses.. you're basically ruining the integrity of the game.. when we started this we AGREED to have these judges/judging... Now that it didnt work out your way, you'll spend the next year or so debating why? Time to Move on....
2 Judges and 4 Coaches agreed together...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject:

TIME wrote:
postandpivot, I think your problems started when you chose friends to evaluate the game for you that start their evaluation with, "Dude..."

i read that after i typed it and said to self, that sounds like keanu reeves speak.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:14 pm    Post subject:

Soy wrote:
Simple case of overestimating Pierce and far underestimating Rodman. Pierce is closer to Joe Johnson than Kobe or LBJ.

not true. joe johnson did not take his team beyond the celtics. johnson did not win finals mvp. and thats the problem. you dont win finals mvp being joe johnson(a very solid sg). you win it when you're ELITE. the only guy that i know of that has won that award that wasn't elite at the moment he won it and i still wonder about that today was billups. thats because that entire series was 100% grade A...... you already know.

I told people from day one. stop talking about KG as mVp. that is still pierce's team fake knee injury or not. it was his team while ray ray choked in the previous series. it was his team when skinny kg played like a skinny guy and took nothing but jumpers vs going to the basket. especially in the 4th when there was a real game to win. kg wasn't the closer. kg was a 3rd qtr guy. try to blow them out now, or else I'll become timid and passive. Pierce save us. that was kg's thought.

it was always paul pierce, then kg, then ray ray. anyone that says otherwise isn't watching the games closely enough. i told guys from the start of the season KG with the frowing and all th e doesn't convince me. he's a great mid range jumpshooter that plays great HELPSIDE defense. nothing more, nothing less. what you guys fell to realize is that no one has ever really stopped or slowed paul pierce. thats why they dont ever talk about "so and so has slowed pierce in the past". because it really hasn't happened. i knew this when we went to the finals he was the mismatch. and kobe this time couldn't shut him down for 5 mins. because he's just clever enough with his body and he's very strong once he gets beyond the ft line. sure so is dennis someone even mentioned that rodman shut down pippen back in the detroit days. So what, paul pierce is a much better scorer then scottie with mjay.(we're not talking about scottie on the bulls with kukoc and no mjay, that was a different guy).

you guys played paul pierce like he wasn't the finals mvp. was he not? yes he was.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:21 pm    Post subject:

jamas33 wrote:
I'm sorry to say this but time to move on.... Don't take the joy out of this game by complainin why you lost.. its done.. move on... I saw another game where another team deserves to win and I could tell the other GM felt the same way... but those are the breaks... What is better than being a gracious winner? being a good loser... if I'd lost.. I'd move on.. so I think there is a time when the complainin why you lost need to stop...

who said i cared about being a gracious winner in an internet game? i dont. if its a real game thats different. so i dont have to move on. i can sob like a baby if i want and tell you about it. and you better listen

by the way there's a difference between complaining about something because you're a sore loser. and talking about why you think you didn't win is because you figured the judges didn't correctly assess your team as you assessed them because they dont think the same way. if i didn't win but we didn't have a full thread of people trying to convince each other that rodman would lock pierce up when pierce just won finals mvp. thats crazy. when the guy just picked the wrong era where rodman can't use his tactics(body, hands) which is what made him such a great defender. after i proved to you what pierce did to this era's greatest most consistent sf defender(bowen) at different points in both of their careers. its no way you can come up with "you understimated drod, and over estimated pierce." you can't overestimate a guy who just won the championship and just won the finals mvp(no one said he shouldn't have got it. everyone knew he deserved it, fake injury and all). in this era which is the era he chose. again that was a mistake. and the fact that no one caught that but me and those other people who read the threads. no they are not buddies of mine. they are guys that think out of the box.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:26 pm    Post subject:

jamas33 wrote:
Sky, DB and the 4 other coaches don't have to explain to anyone of us why they voted the way they did.. when you start questioning it and saying they are wrong.. or they mistook your gameplan or other kinda excuses.. you're basically ruining the integrity of the game.. when we started this we AGREED to have these judges/judging... Now that it didnt work out your way, you'll spend the next year or so debating why? Time to Move on....
2 Judges and 4 Coaches agreed together...

you're incorrect. what i am saying is open your mind a bit more. thats what I am saying. when i voted on those games for others. guess what in one i was the only one on the other side. it was like 3-1 or 4-1 something like that. the 1 was probably me in one of those games. and i had a legit reason for choosing that team. again i saw how not opening your mind up to other possibilities that were presented in his writeup stopped him from winning in those other judges minds. it has nothing to do with the integrity of it. they're not cheating. they're thinking how they think and voting accordingly. all i'm saying is look deeper then that. dont be so afraid to try it, if nothing happens then so be it. but if you try it and start seeing the things i was saying. well you're entire perspective on hoop may change.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:26 pm    Post subject:

sorry I guess we all are wrong in how we see things.. my apologies...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:59 pm    Post subject:

jamas33 wrote:
sorry I guess we all are wrong in how we see things.. my apologies...

who said that? not i.

i said i would hope you guys could look deeper thats all.

1.75+1.75 and you say it equals 4. i say it equals 3.50. you say you rounded up. neither is wrong if thats the case. but one is looking deeper.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:02 pm    Post subject:

ok I'm game Pivot give me an example of deeper that went against what I wrote.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:17 pm    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
jamas33 wrote:
sorry I guess we all are wrong in how we see things.. my apologies...

who said that? not i.

i said i would hope you guys could look deeper thats all.

1.75+1.75 and you say it equals 4. i say it equals 3.50. you say you rounded up. neither is wrong if thats the case. but one is looking deeper.


Actually, yeah you have more than once said exactly that. You are right. We are wrong. You see things we don't see. You understand the mysteries of basketball at a level most mortals will never attain.

Sorry, but you are full of it. You have some knowledge of the game for sure, but you don't know what you are most insistent about. The whole Paul Pierce is unstoppable fantasy is the most obvious example.

My advice is that you start your own game and run it, or get one of your buddies that see what you see to start one. Because as long as you play a game like this run by someone like Sky who actually does know the game, you are going to be shocked and amazed by your lack of success.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:03 am    Post subject:

TIME wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
jamas33 wrote:
sorry I guess we all are wrong in how we see things.. my apologies...

who said that? not i.

i said i would hope you guys could look deeper thats all.

1.75+1.75 and you say it equals 4. i say it equals 3.50. you say you rounded up. neither is wrong if thats the case. but one is looking deeper.


Actually, yeah you have more than once said exactly that. You are right. We are wrong. You see things we don't see. You understand the mysteries of basketball at a level most mortals will never attain.

Sorry, but you are full of it. You have some knowledge of the game for sure, but you don't know what you are most insistent about. The whole Paul Pierce is unstoppable fantasy is the most obvious example.

My advice is that you start your own game and run it, or get one of your buddies that see what you see to start one. Because as long as you play a game like this run by someone like Sky who actually does know the game, you are going to be shocked and amazed by your lack of success.
Preach brother Time.. preach...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:32 am    Post subject:

TIME wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
jamas33 wrote:
sorry I guess we all are wrong in how we see things.. my apologies...

who said that? not i.

i said i would hope you guys could look deeper thats all.

1.75+1.75 and you say it equals 4. i say it equals 3.50. you say you rounded up. neither is wrong if thats the case. but one is looking deeper.


Actually, yeah you have more than once said exactly that. You are right. We are wrong. You see things we don't see. You understand the mysteries of basketball at a level most mortals will never attain.

Sorry, but you are full of it. You have some knowledge of the game for sure, but you don't know what you are most insistent about. The whole Paul Pierce is unstoppable fantasy is the most obvious example.

My advice is that you start your own game and run it, or get one of your buddies that see what you see to start one. Because as long as you play a game like this run by someone like Sky who actually does know the game, you are going to be shocked and amazed by your lack of success.

oh boy. if you want to go there with the "you should start your own game" sounds like with that mentality thats pretty much what you have already done. you've ran to a game under judges that see the game as you do. so of course you will have more success in said game (assuming you have a decent to good draft slot and are taking your time to choose your players). but that wasn't the point. its okay for people to get better at what they do. Dont be afraid of me challenging not just sky to think deeper but you also. sure at first it may seem as if i'm saying "YALL DONT KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT" i didn't say that. because you guys do know what you're talking about and you gave your reasons for thinking the way you do. with that being said, i could see that you guys in general were looking on the surface of a lot of stuff. the pierce(finals mvp champion) vs rodman (IN THIS SOFT ERA) was one major example. The other is assuming me choosing webber when i did was a bad move under the circumstance of where my draft slot was. Its just like me commenting on that grant hill trade vs not giving the guy nique. Its just like the clutchness of the rest of my bench being underrated. when your towel waver 12th man is a champion and has his own nickname based on how he played during those championship years. it means you have a solid bench. but not just solid you have a bench that could win you games if need be.because they are champions for the most part and have battled the best of the best teams to get there. so they all know what it takes.

last but not least. no on ever said SKY didn't know the game. I agree with sky a lot. but alot of times i disagree in the other laker forums. and there has been a few times in the past few years where everyone darn near including sky disagreed and I ended up being correct. It means that I can respect and see what sky sees but I could also see beyond that in certain situations.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:58 am    Post subject:

Pivot...

Of all the people here, I think I actually relate to your issues more than anyone else. My team was not full of superstars and lost to the team with the biggest superstars. I, like you, had a gameplan that I believed in, done in the desired format, and was pretty much ignored by two of the judges. I, like you, disagreed with two of the judges' views of the game and their subsequent decisions. Even if I have a real beef with them, here is the bottom line...

I lost.

As much as I want them to retract their decisions and to listen to me and how much I want to rant and rave, point by point, to persuade them to change their minds, I am left with the same fact...

I lost.

All I wish to communicate is that same message.

You lost.

...but Pierce was the MVP and...

You lost.

...but DRod couldn't stop....

You lost.
You lost.
You lost.
You lost.

This game is being judged. And whether you think its right or not, your team and your gameplan, or lack thereof, were judged and...

YOU LOST.

If you want to complain about it...please feel free to continue. As I've said in earlier posts, you are entertaining...in the same way that its fun to listen to a drunk explain global economics. I wouldn't mind seeing this thread at the top of the list of threads forever, with you giving us the daily dose of Pierce is unstoppable because he was the Finals MVP, D Rodman not as great as we think, my team didn't have sexy names, you need to expand your mind, all my buddies think I should have won, oh yeah, prove me wrong....That would just be a delicious treat for me and everyone else on this board to get to see your daily rants...

And in the end, after you pass the millionth mark in posts to this thread the same cold fact will be waiting for you...

YOU LOST.

You have strong opinions, with a perspective that is unique to everyone else. Everyone seems to respect your passion and would probably listen more to your views if you didn't jam them down our throats. Respect works both ways. The judges gave us their opinions, supposedly based on gameplan, but it was their view nonetheless. Respect them for that and they will respect your views too.

But it won't change anything...you still lost.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:05 am    Post subject:

I'm always open to learning more and thinking in different ways so I welcome what Pivot has to say, I have no problem with it at all.

On the Pierce-Rodman stuff I agree with the premise that the era is mismatched in terms of not optimizing Dennis. No handchecks hurts him, but imo it doesn't handcuff him entirely. All-D players will still put their superior anticipation and knowledge of angles to good use, they aren't completely stripped of their ability to defend and in this case have a zone behind them with shotblockers. Pierce gets jumpers all night but he doesn't get penetration with a Wade-esque ft parade. Rodman is not Jason Terry and the D on the court is not the Mavs.

If the deeper point is balance, that's been my mantra from day one. It's not just defense that wins championships but balance. Inside-out, vertical and horizontal spacing, offense-defense, iq-athleticism, energy-clutch, pick your poison scenarios, etc.

Show me that deeper goes beyond head-to-head analysis, beyond assuming that new school rules automatically mean a Wade scenario, beyond the value of balance. Show me something truly new and I would value that highly. Let's give Pivot the benefit of the doubt that he can do precisely that.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:05 am    Post subject:

I finally saw Season 1 of LOST. and guess what?

















































yup









































YOU LOST.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:11 am    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
TIME wrote:
postandpivot wrote:
jamas33 wrote:
sorry I guess we all are wrong in how we see things.. my apologies...

who said that? not i.

i said i would hope you guys could look deeper thats all.

1.75+1.75 and you say it equals 4. i say it equals 3.50. you say you rounded up. neither is wrong if thats the case. but one is looking deeper.


Actually, yeah you have more than once said exactly that. You are right. We are wrong. You see things we don't see. You understand the mysteries of basketball at a level most mortals will never attain.

Sorry, but you are full of it. You have some knowledge of the game for sure, but you don't know what you are most insistent about. The whole Paul Pierce is unstoppable fantasy is the most obvious example.

My advice is that you start your own game and run it, or get one of your buddies that see what you see to start one. Because as long as you play a game like this run by someone like Sky who actually does know the game, you are going to be shocked and amazed by your lack of success.

oh boy. if you want to go there with the "you should start your own game" sounds like with that mentality thats pretty much what you have already done. you've ran to a game under judges that see the game as you do. so of course you will have more success in said game (assuming you have a decent to good draft slot and are taking your time to choose your players). but that wasn't the point. its okay for people to get better at what they do. Dont be afraid of me challenging not just sky to think deeper but you also. sure at first it may seem as if i'm saying "YALL DONT KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT" i didn't say that. because you guys do know what you're talking about and you gave your reasons for thinking the way you do. with that being said, i could see that you guys in general were looking on the surface of a lot of stuff. the pierce(finals mvp champion) vs rodman (IN THIS SOFT ERA) was one major example. The other is assuming me choosing webber when i did was a bad move under the circumstance of where my draft slot was. Its just like me commenting on that grant hill trade vs not giving the guy nique. Its just like the clutchness of the rest of my bench being underrated. when your towel waver 12th man is a champion and has his own nickname based on how he played during those championship years. it means you have a solid bench. but not just solid you have a bench that could win you games if need be.because they are champions for the most part and have battled the best of the best teams to get there. so they all know what it takes.


Another clueless response.

Actually this is the first game of fantasy basketball that I have ever played in my life. This is my third try at the game. The first season I actually thought I had one of the better teams and did not even qualify for the playoffs. I did not post a single complaint or whine about how the judges did not see what I saw in my team. Instead I evaluated why I lost and learned from it.

I recognized what you refuse to consider; maybe the judges know something I don't. I rejoined the second time and did much better based on what I had learned. I still lost in the playoffs. I lost to Sky. I still think I had a better team than him, but the bottomline was that he outcoached my better team.

So, I'm back a third time and still learning as I go. You might try it.
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