Are you interested in the intricacies of the Triangle? (updated)
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Addicus
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject:

Watching Laker games changes after learning this.
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LakerSanity
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:37 pm    Post subject:

Addicus wrote:
Watching Laker games changes after learning this.


You begin to understand how any one player who doesn't know what he is doing can really mess everything up... no less 2 or 3. It's why, unlike a lot of other teams, integrating a new piece midseason can truly be difficult because although the offense may not take much longer than most to pick up, the transition costs tends to be greater.

It also shows how intelligent a player and person Gasol is that he picked it up so quickly.
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Apricot
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:58 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Addicus wrote:
Watching Laker games changes after learning this.


You begin to understand how any one player who doesn't know what he is doing can really mess everything up... no less 2 or 3. It's why, unlike a lot of other teams, integrating a new piece midseason can truly be difficult because although the offense may not take much longer than most to pick up, the transition costs tends to be greater.

It also shows how intelligent a player and person Gasol is that he picked it up so quickly.


Excellent points.

Not to take anything away from Gasol, but the 4 and 5 in the scheme don't seem to have quite as many reads and options as the others (especially the 3). The 5 basically gets the ball in the post and either takes it 1 on 1, or can hit cutters who are freed up by the screens. Sometimes the 5 has to move to the high post to relieve pressure. So, yes that's a lot, but it seems conceivable that a high IQ player could figure out the 5 position from principles.

It also emphasizes the importance of the 3 knowing the offense and why we were willing to give up so much raw talent to have Luke out there instead of Vlad. The entire section III (diagrams 5 to 30(!)) are all the options that the 3 gets from the initial pass. The 3 has to read where the defense is overplaying and either shoot, use a screen, read various cuts and screens and pass to the open cutter, or pass and set a key screen that makes the rest of the play work.

You also see why Lamar isn't at his best at that 3 position... the 3 needs to read/pass and set screens. Lamar's talent is in driving, some high-low passing, and rebounding.

By the way, I wasn't kidding about the plea for a video companion... wouldn't it be cool to see little clips of the Lakers actually running the options?
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slippy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:07 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
The 5 basically gets the ball in the post and either takes it 1 on 1, or can hit cutters who are freed up by the screens.


I think the triangle worked well in the Shaq-Kobe era mostly because it was extremely effective in getting the ball to the 5. Only a few teams (i.e. the Spurs) were able to block off the entry pass into the paint.

But from the diagrams, it also seemed to me that Kobe had a legitimate gripe about how they were running the offense. As facilitator, he would give the ball up to the SF (Fox), which would then be dumped into C (Shaq.) Most of the time, Kobe would then move over to the weak side, and he would be kinda taken out of the offense in most series.

Quote:
You also see why Lamar isn't at his best at that 3 position... the 3 needs to read/pass and set screens. Lamar's talent is in driving, some high-low passing, and rebounding.


Lamar just took long to make reads. If the guy is holding onto the ball, then people can't really make cuts. Also, it creates a lot of indecision where you don't know whether to attack or shoot. Which leads to Gasol . . .

Quote:
So, yes that's a lot, but it seems conceivable that a high IQ player could figure out the 5 position from principles.


It's really Gasol's read-and-react speed that makes the triangle so lethal. Nobody on the team is better at finding cutters, and nobody takes less time in making a decision, whether it's to face up his guy, take a shot, or pass it out. Because of Gasol, the triangle is closer to facilitating continuous movement among the players, which makes it so difficult to defend.

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It also emphasizes the importance of the 3 knowing the offense and why we were willing to give up so much raw talent to have Luke out there instead of Vlad.


Yup. Though it's also a huge shame too, because having a guy at the 3 who can consistently hit helps a lot too. But, yeah, it's often up to the "3" to make the entry pass, and Luke is great at that. Lamar is also good at this, but he wasn't starting with the 1st unit.
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Apricot
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:25 am    Post subject:

slippy wrote:
Quote:
It also emphasizes the importance of the 3 knowing the offense and why we were willing to give up so much raw talent to have Luke out there instead of Vlad.


Yup. Though it's also a huge shame too, because having a guy at the 3 who can consistently hit helps a lot too. But, yeah, it's often up to the "3" to make the entry pass, and Luke is great at that. Lamar is also good at this, but he wasn't starting with the 1st unit.


The thing that the diagrams really bring home to me is the role of the 3. Just watching the games it's hard to tell how much the 3 has to do, especially the intricate way that 3 needs to read the D and screen for the 1, 2 or 4 and potentially cut off that. On the plus side, you can contribute a lot even if you aren't shooting well IF others will use you as a screen.

To be fair, I am not convinced that the Lakers have been showing most of the options in part III. Most of the time they throw it in the post. Vlad could occasionally hit a cutter but spent most of his time running through to spot up for a 3 on the weak side or sometimes in the strong corner. And Luke would hit cutters but people would sag off him so much that people would take away the screen options and force him to post up and become the 5. And Kobe at the 3 tends to let one triangle counter unfold and if it doesn't work, just take it into the post himself or hoist a questionable three.

I can't wait to get some time in a couple of weeks to actually look at some game tape and see what's going on...
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Wilt
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:50 pm    Post subject:

Keep in mind, the diagrams (except the ones in the "semi fastbreak" and "special situations" sections) assume that the opposition had just scored a basket and that the offense is initiated slowly. In those situations, the desired alignment always puts the 3 man on the strong-side wing. But often, the alignment resembles diagrams 126 through 129, for instance. You'd have an attempted fastbreak that is stopped by the opposition, and then the players simply go to the nearest spots in the offense, though the post and high post are reserved for the 4 and 5. That is how Kobe is often free at the top of the key because he's usually ahead of the slower 4 and 5 to the opposite basket. And when the fastbreak doesn't materialize, he gets a screen from Gasol or Bynum, who slide down to the weakside post. Diagram 126 perfectly illustrates that.

I think that is one of the main strengths of this offense. You can get into it even after unsuccessful fastbreaks. Other teams usually run a simple pick and roll or simply throw it into the post. The triangle can be created at any time. And then you have all options available. When teams establish a certain rhythm on how to get into the offense, even when there's a broken play, then this offense becomes truly unstoppable. It takes a while to do it by instinct. When you "think," the rhythm is lost.
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Discoflux
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:32 pm    Post subject:

this is really great, thanks for uploading.

I wish television cameras captured more half court vision so I could watch all 5 players in motion and decision making with their options.
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Fishlakers
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:41 pm    Post subject:

The triangle is unstoppable when run properly!!! The Lakers win when they run it and most times pull out tough wins when they use there talent instead. Although, I would like more togetherness with the triangle down the stretch.
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KoolMo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:46 am    Post subject:

in-depth work.
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NonCuratLex
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:17 pm    Post subject:

That was really well done. There's a lot more depth than I ever understood of the offense before (even though i had read, among other things, bits of Tex's book).

Thank you for sharing it with us.
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zasos
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:57 pm    Post subject:

thank you! amazing work!
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G35CK
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject:

Wow, thanks for sharing. Now I don't have to think of anything else to do when I retire. This is going to keep me busy for at least a year.
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Bean Brian
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:21 pm    Post subject:

Unbelievable. You rock
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knhellesky
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject: Thanks

Very informative.
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n9c
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:12 pm    Post subject:

Awesome stuff Wilt thanks. You made my day
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The_Real_Kobay
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:09 pm    Post subject:

the triangle is unstoppable when opponent's defense suck.
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Teamof2000
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:55 pm    Post subject:

I'm always interested in the triangle, if you know what I mean.
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject:

I read it backwards, and saw God.
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:13 pm    Post subject:

Seriously Wilt this is good stuff. Fantastic.

Thank you very much for posting this for download.
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uciyo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:40 am    Post subject:

nice.... thank you so much
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noJINX
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:49 am    Post subject:

Please forward a copy to Jordan Farmar
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JR-DMC
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject:

Just signed up to say Thanks to Wilt. I am a Cavaliers fan but i enjoyed the little(60+pages ) you put together. I can see why most teams don't run the triangle offense due to it's complexity.

*p.s. I hope the Lakers don't make it out of the West because we don't match up well against you guys.
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Wilt
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:24 pm    Post subject:

^
Glad to hear that.

I am thinking about revising the whole thing soon. I think the diagrams are a bit small and the lines are too thin. I'd do the same format as in my recent diagrams that I have posted in other threads. Thicker lines, bigger diagrams, and more color. I'll also write completely new explanations. Some new options would be added as well. Believe it or not, I wrote the entire text in less than 30 minutes, and I think I was a bit under the influence of alcohol that night, way back in 2004.

But I appreciate the interest. As I said in the op, you will not find a more elaborate explanation anywhere else. Some people have urged me to write a book and send it to sports publishers. I might do it.
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nbafan89
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:35 am    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
You'd be right.

I used to spend a lot of time analyzing games. I watched games over and over again, even preseason games. I have a huge library of VHS tapes from the three-peat years.

I am a lot more relaxed today.


great to see so many lakers fan on one forum, this is my first post and do you have any videotapes from the magic johnson era, and how many vhs tapes do you have from the three-peat years
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asapp915
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:55 pm    Post subject:

WOW Just gotta say THANKS Really Appreciate IT!!!!!!
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