Hollinger on Lakers Greatest Duos: Kareem and Magic #1 of course

[LakerDynasty6.0]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090226

I agree with the rankings.. your thoughts?

PS:
Trying to suck up, John?

[parsons777]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090226

Can someone fix the link tag?

I wonder if Kobe + Pau or Kobe + Drew will eventually make the list


Chat
Pat (Chicago): Juest read your PER Diem. The overall best total 1-2 punch of all time has to be Jordan-Pippen, right?

John Hollinger: (3:24 PM ET ) Probably, but you could argue for Magic and Kareem too -- Pippen kind of pales next to both those guys. Kareem and Oscar would be an automatic No. 1 if they'd had more time together.

[OX1947]

Shaq and Kobe had a chance to be the greatest Duo in SPORTS history not just the NBA. There is no reason to think that they couldn't have won 7 or 8 titles. Kobe showed that he wanted greatness by staying in shape and working on his game all the time. Shaq was not dedicated and didn't care about the regular season or staying in shape. So you decide what is what.

Only player that has come out and hated Kobe is Shaq, not Fox, not Fisher, not any ex Laker. Shaq alienated Penny, Kobe, and I don't know if anything happened with Wade in Miami but they don't seem to talk much and that was another team that shipped his ass out because of his attitude.

And now, that Shaq is a year and 30 games away from oblivion, he is playing hard so he can probably continue his career after 2010.

History explains everything and mix in some common sense helps too. Every team Shaq has been on, he was a virus. He planted, and he left when things got bad to infect another. Even though he brought 3 titles to LA with Kobe and Co, what gets lost is why settle for 3, when you can have 5,6 or 7. And why talk crap for 2 years about your old team. If he hated Kobe, fine, if he wanted to bash him, fine. But why did we have to hear for 2 years kill the Lakers GM, Owner, etc.

The only way to cover the lost championships now is to go on a 5 to 7 year run and win 4 or 5 rings. Even though it killed 3 years, I think if the Lakers win 6 or 7 titles in the Kobe era, it would even out the situation.

[Kazaam]

Did you see his BS in the chat?

Saying it would be one of the worst injustices in MVP history, if Kobe won the MVP this year over LeHype.

Oh man, thats just ridiculous.

[Bean Brian]

[Gandalf]

[Kazaam]

[onepinoyboy8]

Karl Malone and John Stockton could of been great duos if they had won championships...

[Megatron24]

#1 Travis Knight and Sean Rooks

[kaoss128]

Its not Kareem and Magic. They weren't a duo. They were a trio with James Worthy. You can't leave out a top 50 all time player like that and only talk about Magic and Kareem. Shaq and Kobe was the greatest Laker duo ever. They were a true duo.

[LakerDynasty6.0]

[Camaro383ci]

[kobester]

[Ohio's Lone Laker Fan]

NO SMUSH/KWAME BROWN?

WHAT KIND OF CROCK OF A LIST IS THIS!??!?!

[non-player zealot]

[ThePunisher]

[LA_Lakers_Rule]

As is often the case rings has impacted the list:

I think a case can be made that either West and Baylor or even Malone and Stockton (who aren't even on the list of top 5) are arguably the best and certainly no worse than #2 or #3 at the outside on the list (titles aside of course).

First West/Baylor went to the finals 7 times in their careers and if it were in any other era than when Boston dominated the NBA with something like 10 titles out of 11 years with 8 in a row they would have certainly had a few titles themselves...

Then it is mentioned how West/Baylor had 12 seasons together with all of of those years including their prime years... consider that Stockton/Malone had 18 seasons together with all of their prime years together as well.

Now I'm not going to say that either of these two tandems were necessarily better than Kareem/Magic but it is important to note that it is certainly clear that the 10 years and 18 years that the other two tandems I've mentioned had together respectively had all of their prime years together as opposed to the fact that none of Magic/Jabbars years included any of Jabbar's prime years...

Also it is clear that the West/Baylor and Stockton/Malone tandems did not have nearly the supporting cast that the Magic/Jabbar tandem had which clearly had an impact in the number of titles won.

Taking a look at each of these three tandems (titles aside):

Best year 61-62:
West ppg 30.8 rpg 7.9 apg 5.4 (sophomore year)
Baylor ppg 38.3 rpg 18.6 apg 4.6 (4th year)
Average: 34.3 rpg 13.2 apg 5.0

West had many years that were better (at least 5) but this was arguably their best year combined.

Best year 89-09:
Stockton ppg 17.2 rpg 2.6 apg 14.5
Malone ppg 31.0 rpg 11.1 apg 2.8
Average: 24.1 rpg 5.8 apg 8.7

Both had arguably several better years but this was debatably the best combined.

Best year 80-81:
Magic ppg 21.6 rpg 8.6 apg 8.6 (sophomore year)
Jabbar ppg 26.2 rpg 10.3 apg 3.4
Average: 23.9 rpg 9.5 apg 6.0

Magic had 10 subsequent years that were all better but it was clearly Jabbar's best year during their respective time together as Jabbar's years started slowly declining.

It's not to say that each of those tandems best years together are what is important but clearly both West/Baylor and Stockton/Malone had ALL OF THEIR PRIME YEARS TOGETHER and this clearly cannot be said for Magic/Jabbar.

If considering BOTH players as a tandem over the many years together I think a case can certainly at least be debated for either West/Baylor or Stockton/Malone as good or better than Magic/Jabbar simply because of the total production for each tandem as a compared to the other.

But of course the 5 titles will end up trumping the other two tandems and in turn completely ignore the fact that the Jabbar/Magic tandem had other great players like Worthy, Cooper and Scott which were likely better than the compliment of players the other two tandems generally had over their careers.

Thus to an extend I think it is unfair to give that much preference to titles considering the depth of the Magic/Jabbar team as compared to the other two discussed... same thing can be said as well to giving more preference to the one title won by the West/Wilt tandem as well imho as that team was star studded beyond just West and Wilt (Hairston, Goodrich to name a couple)... the two tandems ranking higher on the list because of titles had the the greater overall talent that contributed to winning those titles in my perspective.

As far as the O'Neal/Kobe tandem I have no problem with them being in the top 2 or 3 certainly and arguably even #1 but it is true that the tandem had the least number of years together with debatably only 5 prime years together. But clearly they put up incredible numbers combined and were a two man wrecking crew while together.
_________________
Rule = win titles

Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...

[KBH]

[KBH]

[Kazaam]

[RG73]

Actually the irony here is that if you go by PER, Shaq and Kobe are the best all time. I think they twice had a combined PER of 55, which I believe is better than any other duo.

[LA_Lakers_Rule]

Just for comparison purposes since I had posted what I thought were the best years together for each of the tandems I discussed leaving out Shaq/Kobe let me include them as a statistical comparison of best years...

Best year 61-62:
West ppg 30.8 rpg 7.9 apg 5.4 (sophomore year)
Baylor ppg 38.3 rpg 18.6 apg 4.6 (4th year)
Average: 34.3 rpg 13.2 apg 5.0

The tandem had 12 years together with all of them including prime years. West had many years that were better (at least 5) but this was arguably their best year combined.

Best year 89-09:
Stockton ppg 17.2 rpg 2.6 apg 14.5
Malone ppg 31.0 rpg 11.1 apg 2.8
Average: 24.1 rpg 5.8 apg 8.7

A total of 18 years together with all of their prime years included. Both had arguably several better years but this was debatably the best combined.

Best year 80-81:
Magic ppg 21.6 rpg 8.6 apg 8.6 (sophomore year)
Jabbar ppg 26.2 rpg 10.3 apg 3.4
Average: 23.9 rpg 9.5 apg 6.0

Tandem had 10 years together and as we know none of Jabbar's really prime years are included for this tandem.

Best year 02-03:
Shaq ppg 27.5 rpg 11.1 apg 3.1
Kobe ppg 30.0 rpg 6.9 apg 5.9
Average: 29.3 rpg 9.0 apg 4.5

Total of 8 years together with perhaps both with 5 prime years. Both had years possibly better with Shaq perhaps as many as 8 however in Kobe's case one can argue that may have been possibly his best but if not was very near his best all around statistically.

I understand the "era" argument can come into play especially in the case of West/Baylor and to a lesser extent the other two in comparing to Shaq/Kobe so to whatever extent this is considered important this can be taken into account of course.
_________________
Rule = win titles

Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...

[LA_Lakers_Rule]

Now to discuss the influence of titles considering the talent level of player tandems in the NBA and how this can be unfair in many respects, imho...

As I've posted the West/Baylor tandem was up against one of the most dominant teams in the history of the game in Boston most of the time in the finals RELATIVE TO THEIR ERA...

As far as the Jazz they had to face the daunting Bulls a number of times in the finals match-ups again of course relative to their era....

I think it can be said that the Jabbar/Magic tandem faced and dispatched some very good Boston teams while winning 5 titles and I think it worth noting that they should have actually one 6 titles if it were not for both back court starters going down in the finals against Detroit. But on the other hand it is equally worth noting that this tandem had clearly the best supporting cast which is of course a critical factor as far as winning those titles that should be considered.

As far as the 3 titles won by the Shaq/Kobe tandem I don't think the New Jersey and Philadelphia and even perhaps the Indiana teams compared to the teams that the other 3 tandems faced again relative to their respective era. To this tandems credit however they did win the 3 titles with far less of a supporting cast than the Jabbar/Magic tandem had with players like Worthy, Scott and Cooper for example which speaks to how potent the tandem of Kobe and Shaq were.

Overall looking at all 4 of these tandems the level of competition and the greater supporting cast of the Jabbar/Magic tandem would give added weight to the West/Baylor and Malone/Stockton tandems considering the fact that both of these latter two tandems faced relatively more difficult competition and with much less supporting cast most specifically the tandem that won the most titles in the 80's... in turn I think it fair to suggest that West/Baylor and Malone/Stockton tandems would have won more titles even with their relatively thinner supporting casts absent the more difficult circumstances of their respective eras....
_________________
Rule = win titles

Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...

[kaoss128]

[J.C. Smith]

I don't have a problem with it. Kareem and Magic reached the Finals 8 times in 10 years, and won 5 championships. They were probably never as good at the same time as Kobe and Shaq were in the later seasons, but they had more success and were dominant in their own right.

You also can't really use numbers as a comparison, because the Lakers in the 80s were stacked. Not only did you have Kareem and Magic, but you also had James Worthy, Jamaal Wilkes, Byron Scott, Norm Nixon, etc who were all better scorers than Kobe and Shaq had alongside them in any of their title run years. There were more people to share the rock with.