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| Who's the all-time best Laker Defender? |
| Kobe |
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28% |
[ 43 ] |
| Cooper |
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62% |
[ 96 ] |
| Other |
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9% |
[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 153 |
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OregonLakerGuy
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 13207
Location: Oregon
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 Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Having seen both Kobe and Coop play, I would have to give the edge to Coop. Kobe has the physical tools to be the best ever, but defense was Coops focus. That and the Coop-a-loop. God I miss Showtime  |
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PiPisKobesByatch
Star Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2001
Posts: 8038
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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as mentioned before.. if kobe did not have to score the ball, set everybody up, and do all the OTHER things that the team relies on him to do... then of course he could exert 100% of his effort to defense, the way coop did, and probably do a better job of it.
kobe is longer, much stronger, much more athletic, and has an uncanny will to succeed.
but they rely on him to do so much.. whereas the 80's teams did not rely on coop much to score. |
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LakeShow29
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Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| smitco wrote: | | Arsenal wrote: | | Kobe might be the most overrated Laker defender in history... |
Kobe overrated? are you a hater? kobe made all defensive first team thrice and second team twice. Do you really have any basis in making such an ignorant statement? |
Why is he a hater just b/c he is critical of Kobe? I don't know his basis, but my basis of kobe being a overrated defender is watching the games. Don't get me wrong, kobe is a great defender, when he wants to be. I understand he has to carry the offense, but I definitely see his defense slip alot, whether it's from conserving energy or what not. He gambles to much, and plays the lanes to much. Especially the last 2 years. He needs to concentrate on staying with his man more. Again, he can be as good a defender as anyone, and he was 3-4 years ago. But as of now, it's mostly from his past reputation that he's considered a great defender. |
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Arsenal
Star Player
Joined: 26 Jun 2002
Posts: 1954
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe is the master of guarding 2 players at once. He gives up open 3's constantly. He gives up open shots to players he doesn't respect.
If he was guarding Redd for 82 games he'd be DPOY, year in year out. But he simply doesn't give that effort on defense except for a few games a year against certain players. |
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SG_Kobe
Starting Rotation
Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Kobe has Redd's number. Redd averages 7 points against the Lakers. The closest team bieng Atlanta at 14.x points. |
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Serious NBA Fan
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 2429
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| lal4l wrote: | | Coop gave JORDAN the hardest time as admitted BY HIM. |
Coop won the defensive player of the year award the year he gave fits to MJ, Bird and Kevin Johnson. Now that's D! |
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drzucchini
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Sep 2002
Posts: 16327
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| lal4l wrote: | | Coop gave JORDAN the hardest time as admitted BY HIM. |
Hmm, don't seem to recall Jordan ever saying that. I've always thought that he said that Dumars gave him the hardest time. |
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Drifts
Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 28374
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| drzucchini wrote: | | lal4l wrote: | | Coop gave JORDAN the hardest time as admitted BY HIM. |
Hmm, don't seem to recall Jordan ever saying that. I've always thought that he said that Dumars gave him the hardest time. |
I also remember the same thing... |
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smitco
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Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| LakeShow29 wrote: | | smitco wrote: | | Arsenal wrote: | | Kobe might be the most overrated Laker defender in history... |
Kobe overrated? are you a hater? kobe made all defensive first team thrice and second team twice. Do you really have any basis in making such an ignorant statement? |
Why is he a hater just b/c he is critical of Kobe? I don't know his basis, but my basis of kobe being a overrated defender is watching the games. Don't get me wrong, kobe is a great defender, when he wants to be. I understand he has to carry the offense, but I definitely see his defense slip alot, whether it's from conserving energy or what not. He gambles to much, and plays the lanes to much. Especially the last 2 years. He needs to concentrate on staying with his man more. Again, he can be as good a defender as anyone, and he was 3-4 years ago. But as of now, it's mostly from his past reputation that he's considered a great defender. |
So why is it that you say that kobe is overrated when you yourself even say that he is a great defender? You cannot use "great defender" and "overrated" at the same time, it is just to contradictory.
You say that kobe's defense had slip for the last two season. May i politely remind you that kobe made all defensive 1st team for the 2003-2004 season. He was chosen as part of the all defensive 1st team through a consensus amongst coaches, GM, sportswriters and players. Slip? the facts proves otherwise. May i remind you again than he made first team all defensive thrice(00,03,04) and second team twice(01 and 02). How can this be overrated?
Yes i agree, kobe's defense might have slip last season. But can you really say that his defense is overrated just because he did not have a good defensive season last year? Reasons, reasons..... there are a lot of reason why kobe's defense was not as good last year than his previous years. To cite a few:
1. His teamates relied on him so much, both on offense and defense, he over exerted himself.
2. He was constantly injured.
3. New coach(rudy), new defensive schemes.
4. his backcourt partner(atkins) does not play any defense. |
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bambam
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 9013
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | | drzucchini wrote: | | lal4l wrote: | | Coop gave JORDAN the hardest time as admitted BY HIM. |
Hmm, don't seem to recall Jordan ever saying that. I've always thought that he said that Dumars gave him the hardest time. |
I also remember the same thing... |
And Jordan said so when he came back from retirement. Dumars was the "only guy who made me work"... |
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jumpinmp
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Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 641
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| bambam wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | drzucchini wrote: | | lal4l wrote: | | Coop gave JORDAN the hardest time as admitted BY HIM. |
Hmm, don't seem to recall Jordan ever saying that. I've always thought that he said that Dumars gave him the hardest time. |
I also remember the same thing... |
And Jordan said so when he came back from retirement. Dumars was the "only guy who made me work"... |
I remember Jordan saying Mitch Richmond was his toughest, or one of his toughest defenders. I guess he likes to change his tune from time to time. |
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drzucchini
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Sep 2002
Posts: 16327
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jumpinmp wrote: | | bambam wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | drzucchini wrote: | | lal4l wrote: | | Coop gave JORDAN the hardest time as admitted BY HIM. |
Hmm, don't seem to recall Jordan ever saying that. I've always thought that he said that Dumars gave him the hardest time. |
I also remember the same thing... |
And Jordan said so when he came back from retirement. Dumars was the "only guy who made me work"... |
I remember Jordan saying Mitch Richmond was his toughest, or one of his toughest defenders. I guess he likes to change his tune from time to time. |
Actually, I've heard the thing about Mitch Richmond, too. That wasn't really a testament to Richmond's defense but rather a testament to Richmond's offense. His offensive skills made Jordan work harder and use up more of his energy on the defensive end. |
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JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Kobe has a MUCH greater role on his Lakers squad than coop ever did. Kobe is option # 1 offensively and was # 2 (or 1A - whatever) when Shaq was here, expending plenty of energy in the process. Kobe averaged 35 minutes per game (career) and 40.7 (last year) vs. 26.2 (career) for Coop. Cooper averaged 1.18 steals and .60 blocks vs. Kobe at 1.45 steals and .60 blocks. Both are great lock down defenders when they need to be, Coop was a specialist, and Kobe has many other responsibilites. Also, please remember you are comparing wise old Coop to 26 year old (now 27) Kobe. He is just beginning the prime of his career, and the best is yet to come. . . |
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bambam
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 9013
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| jumpinmp wrote: | | bambam wrote: | | Drifts wrote: | | drzucchini wrote: | | lal4l wrote: | | Coop gave JORDAN the hardest time as admitted BY HIM. |
Hmm, don't seem to recall Jordan ever saying that. I've always thought that he said that Dumars gave him the hardest time. |
I also remember the same thing... |
And Jordan said so when he came back from retirement. Dumars was the "only guy who made me work"... |
I remember Jordan saying Mitch Richmond was his toughest, or one of his toughest defenders. I guess he likes to change his tune from time to time. |
when did he say that?
Jordan talked about dumars in his interview w/ amahd rashad before the start of the 01-02 season.... When it was official that he was coming back. |
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BigGameYimmy
Star Player
Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 1073
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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no comparison, Coop.
Like others have said, if Kobe didn't have to do so many other things on the court and focused on lock down D, then it might be a different story. |
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DrDoom
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Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| magic_bryant wrote: | | Money$hot! wrote: | There are many differences between the two on the defensive end, IMO the largest being consistency... Cooper played some of the greatest defense ever seen nightly. Coop would lock down A,B, and C list players in games that meant nothing as well as games that meant the world.
Kobe on the other hand can be tenacious as hell but only for short stretches (a few games at a time), and usually with marquee match-ups.
This is no knock to Kobe, he has to carry much more offensive load then Kobe, and Coop had the Magic man setting up his offense in perfect spots to help conserve energy as well. Kobe has no such luxury, neither did Michael Jordan (the greatest 2 way player ever), that's what makes MJ such a special player.
But I digress... Cooper was the greatest Laker defender ever, probably the best perimeter defender ever, and arguably the greatest defensive player to step on the court. Hard for anyone to match up to that. |
WHOA!!! I was feeling your post up until that. Come on! The name Bill Russel ring a bell? And since you're going to say "you haven't seen him play, so how could you know?" I will also say Rodman. Could lockdown anyone from SG to C. He's MY choice for greatest Defender ever. What about Scottie Pippen? Never seen someone make Magic work as hard as Scottie did. Never saw Stockton work as hard has he had to against Pippen, either.
Coop is a great Defender, arguably top 5. But he DOESN'T belong in a best defender ever debate at all, IMHO. |
Bill Russell is by FAR the greatest defender this game has ever known. It isn't even close.
Doom |
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SedaleThreatt
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Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Newport Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| coop is better defender then kobe bc coop never took a play off on defense. kobe, on the other hand took an entire season off and his defensive intensity has been goin into a downward spiral since the three peat. he is so capable of dominating on the defensive end. i hope phil pushes kobe bc if kobe leads by example on defense and starts diving for loose balls, there is no tellin how good this long and athletic laker defense can be in this upcoming season. |
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Money$hot!
Star Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2002
Posts: 5911
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| DrDoom wrote: | Bill Russell is by FAR the greatest defender this game has ever known. It isn't even close.
Doom |
By far... I would'nt agree to that. Example move Hakeem into Russell's era, and you would've seen domination on a level unheard of. Now move Russell into the present he would be tough, but small and not nearly strong enough to handle a modern NBA center. Russell won a whole lot but IMO is overrated. Now bring Cooper into the past or 10 years into the future and he still is a lockdown defender who's only peer is maybe Scottie Pippen (as a SF), but Coop may have been the superior defender on the perimeter. Once again Pippen had Michael Jeffery Whatshisname to help... Cooper had nobody and still shut down offenses. It's much closer than you think. |
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mcatboy
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Posts: 999
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TheMagicMan32 wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: |
WHOA!!! I was feeling your post up until that. Come on! The name Bill Russel ring a bell? And since you're going to say "you haven't seen him play, so how could you know?" I will also say Rodman. Could lockdown anyone from SG to C. He's MY choice for greatest Defender ever. |
Bill Russel was only 6'9', in todays game he wouldn't be all world, and Rodman could defend SG's?? LOL Thats laughable. |
Russell would dominate today's game like he did back then. If Ben Wallace can be defensive player of the year at 6'8", then Russel with an extra inch and one of the highest alltime basketball IQs would dominate. He shut down Wilt, much to my dismay, many times. He would own today's weaker centers.
As for Rodman shutting down SGs, in his early years (before discovering Ms. Clairol green dye #47), he would regularly take on the best player the opposing team had to offer (SG to C) and make them work their butt off for every point. I think it was Clyde Drexler who said Rodman was the best he ever faced, and I would have to say Clyde qualifies as a pretty good SG. I'm not sure Rodman's the greatest ever, but he's an alltime great.
| smitco wrote: | | Arsenal wrote: |
Kobe might be the most overrated Laker defender in history... |
Kobe overrated? are you a hater? kobe made all defensive first team thrice and second team twice. Do you really have any basis in making such an ignorant statement? |
Rule 17.3 A in the how to argue as a Lakers fan handbook:
When faced with an argument you're not sure how to handle, simply refer to the debating opponent as a "hater."
Are you a Cooper hater?
As far as defense goes, Kobe does not compare to Cooper. Kobe is a great defender when he feels like it, but there is a lack of consistency that makes him a level below a Cooper. He shuts down Bibby in a big game, then we don't see that for a few games. He is an overrated defender when his name is used in the same breath as Michael Cooper.
Winning a veiled-offensively minded award for defense does not support a player as a great defender. It's like saying the Gold Glove award in baseball means something. Sure, there are some great defenders who win defensive notoriety, but the first and second teams have some marginal choices at best.
When players like Jason Kidd (1999 (1st) and 2000 (2nd)), Manute Bol, Fat Lever, Larry Nance, Mookie Blaylock, Tim Duncan (multiple first teamer), and Karl Malone (after turning 34 he got his first award of a few) make the all-defensive team, you have to consider it an award of popularity more than merit. It's often given for okay defense by an offensive talent. Let me second Arsenal's notion that Kobe might be the most overrated defender on the Lakers. Over the years, Cooper, Jones, Smith, Green, and Kobe have all been mentioned for their defense. Kobe on his best is certainly worthy of that group, but on his indifferent days, he's not in that category. Hence, he is the most overrated Lakers defender. It's not a knock on Kobe; it's an appreciation for other great Lakers defenders. |
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L.A. Dynasty
Rookie
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Coop by a landslide...
While I don't remember Jordan ever saying that about him I remember Larry Bird saying that about him. Those two went at it! I know I saw an interview somewhere that Bird most definitely respected Coop's defense on him and I believe also said that he played him the toughest. |
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B_Rabbit1212
Star Player
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 2085
Location: Santa Barbara / Davis
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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If I had to pick one player to play absolute lockdown defense against one wing player, it would be Kobe. However, in the context of the game, it would be Cooper, as most of his focus is put on the defensive end. So award goes to Cooper because he played great defense with more consistency.
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LAKERLUVA
Sixth Man
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 88
Location: behind you !!!
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | | drzucchini wrote: | | lal4l wrote: | | Coop gave JORDAN the hardest time as admitted BY HIM. |
Hmm, don't seem to recall Jordan ever saying that. I've always thought that he said that Dumars gave him the hardest time. |
I also remember the same thing... |
me thrice |
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DrDoom
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Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Money$hot! wrote: | | DrDoom wrote: | Bill Russell is by FAR the greatest defender this game has ever known. It isn't even close.
Doom |
By far... I would'nt agree to that. Example move Hakeem into Russell's era, and you would've seen domination on a level unheard of. Now move Russell into the present he would be tough, but small and not nearly strong enough to handle a modern NBA center. Russell won a whole lot but IMO is overrated. Now bring Cooper into the past or 10 years into the future and he still is a lockdown defender who's only peer is maybe Scottie Pippen (as a SF), but Coop may have been the superior defender on the perimeter. Once again Pippen had Michael Jeffery Whatshisname to help... Cooper had nobody and still shut down offenses. It's much closer than you think. |
This is just plain wrong.
Bill Russell held his own against Wilt back in those days. Only one person in the league was equal to Wilt and that was Russell. Where Wilt dominated in scoring and stats, Russell dominated with Knowledge, court vision and Defense. So seeing how Russell is Wilt's equal (or very close) I can easily compare him to centers nowadays.
Because WIlt PLAYED against Kareem and he DOMINATED him. Kareem PLAYED against Hakeem and he DOMINATED him. So I know Hakeem would not do what you said because he was DOMINATED for years by a guy that was DOMINATED by Wilt who had only one Peer in Russell.
Likewise, I know that Russell would be just as great today through the same line of reasoning.
Doom |
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mcatboy
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Joined: 22 Dec 2002
Posts: 999
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Money$hot! wrote: | | DrDoom wrote: | Bill Russell is by FAR the greatest defender this game has ever known. It isn't even close.
Doom |
By far... I would'nt agree to that. Example move Hakeem into Russell's era, and you would've seen domination on a level unheard of. Now move Russell into the present he would be tough, but small and not nearly strong enough to handle a modern NBA center. Russell won a whole lot but IMO is overrated. Now bring Cooper into the past or 10 years into the future and he still is a lockdown defender who's only peer is maybe Scottie Pippen (as a SF), but Coop may have been the superior defender on the perimeter. Once again Pippen had Michael Jeffery Whatshisname to help... Cooper had nobody and still shut down offenses. It's much closer than you think. |
Russell shut down the likes of Chamberlain for years, I'm sure he could deal with Hakeem. Hakeem only had an inch on Russell while Chamberlain had five inches. Chamberlain played a much stronger post game than Hakeem and Russell somehow battled him tough. In the later years, Russell shut down Jabbar, Lanier, Reed, Unseld, etc... That's a pretty impressive list. I think you are underestimating the importance of court IQ and wingspan when you erroneously compare Hakeem to Russell. On top of that, the centers of today are a joke compared to seasons past. Put any average center from the 60s through the late 80s in the league today and they'd have a field day. There has to be a reason why a mumbling cross between Stanley Roberts and Oliver Miller can be the self-proclaimed MDE when playing in today's game.
Cooper was certainly great, and worthy of mention in the top five of all time. But Russell was by far the best defender I ever saw play. I hate the Celtics with a passion, and will argue forever that Cousy, Havlicek, and McHale were highly overrated. I think Bird was glorified more than his skills and accomplishments warrented. But despite my hatred for the Celtics, I reluctantly have to admit that Russell was a better defender than anyone the Lakers have ever had. |
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DrDoom
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Joined: 20 Aug 2005
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| mcatboy wrote: | | Money$hot! wrote: | | DrDoom wrote: | Bill Russell is by FAR the greatest defender this game has ever known. It isn't even close.
Doom |
By far... I would'nt agree to that. Example move Hakeem into Russell's era, and you would've seen domination on a level unheard of. Now move Russell into the present he would be tough, but small and not nearly strong enough to handle a modern NBA center. Russell won a whole lot but IMO is overrated. Now bring Cooper into the past or 10 years into the future and he still is a lockdown defender who's only peer is maybe Scottie Pippen (as a SF), but Coop may have been the superior defender on the perimeter. Once again Pippen had Michael Jeffery Whatshisname to help... Cooper had nobody and still shut down offenses. It's much closer than you think. |
Russell shut down the likes of Chamberlain for years, I'm sure he could deal with Hakeem. Hakeem only had an inch on Russell while Chamberlain had five inches. Chamberlain played a much stronger post game than Hakeem and Russell somehow battled him tough. In the later years, Russell shut down Jabbar, Lanier, Reed, Unseld, etc... That's a pretty impressive list. I think you are underestimating the importance of court IQ and wingspan when you erroneously compare Hakeem to Russell. On top of that, the centers of today are a joke compared to seasons past. Put any average center from the 60s through the late 80s in the league today and they'd have a field day. There has to be a reason why a mumbling cross between Stanley Roberts and Oliver Miller can be the self-proclaimed MDE when playing in today's game.
Cooper was certainly great, and worthy of mention in the top five of all time. But Russell was by far the best defender I ever saw play. I hate the Celtics with a passion, and will argue forever that Cousy, Havlicek, and McHale were highly overrated. I think Bird was glorified more than his skills and accomplishments warrented. But despite my hatred for the Celtics, I reluctantly have to admit that Russell was a better defender than anyone the Lakers have ever had. |
Agreed 110%.
People on here must be kidding theirselves if they think the centers of the past ten years are leaps and bounds ahead of those of the past. Quite the opposite actually, in the last 10 years the 5 position has weakened to the point where this may be the worst it has ever been in league history.
Seriously, put Amare where he belongs as a pf, and with the aging of O'Neal and we have Brad Miller (injury prone, super-soft stiff), Yao (tired from playing 11.5 months of the year) Ming, and Big (feet and known to miss 20-30 games a year) Z as the best centers in the league??
That is a travesty.
Doom |
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