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JUST-MING
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 43987
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 Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | I hope he does, but the worrisome part is that he may wind up making himself the #2 option. If that happens, we'll have problems. |
Ron should come off the bench, atleast initially. He is an aggressive player, and we won't want him to just stand around there. I can't see Ron play half ass and do well. He plays a very intense game, and bottling that up will be very hard.
So you bring him off the bench, much like you used to Trevor. You add in Lamar, if he's still with us, that is the best bench in the NBA, easily. Off the bench, Ron can actually play his natural game, get a rhythm. With Lamar out there with him, we are assured that the ball keeps moving and their chemistry should allow them to communicate about a better balance of team vs individual ball.
I think starting Ron right away will be a mistake. He just won't fit in to what the team was doing last year. He's not a role player. He's not going to just stand around the 3 point line or move off the ball as easily as people think. You slowly bring him along in those areas. Initially you let him play his game .... Walton also facilitates the bigs very well something I want to see improved next year. So Walton starts with Bynum/Gasol/Kobe/Fish, Artest + LO off the bench to lea the 2nd unit, and we close with Gasol/LO/Artest/Bryant/Fish or Brown. Best defensive unit. This is the easiest way to transition Artest into the team. He won't have to bottle up his game, and playing closer to 28-30 mpg allows him to focus on defense, not worrying about FT. |
Got to disagree with you here, Wolfy. You start him in preseason from game 1 and get him integrated. IF he doesn't play team ball, then you move him to the bench or sub him out for Luke. In fact, the moment he takes bad shots with that unit or stops the ball, you pull him ... and point out what he did. Let him sit, think about it and then throw him back in.
You also give him plenty to do when he's on the court: bring the ball up to initiate the offense... get in the post and pound people (nothing wrong with him being aggressive there, you want that).
I also disagree about Ron not wanting to stand around at the three line. Ron actually does a ton of standing around the three-point line these days. He was 20th in threes taken, 14th in threes made last year. That's a big part of his game these days. He'll space the floor and he'll get open looks from three. More importantly, he also shot better from three than any other Laker did last season. You want him spacing the floor for Kobe, Pau and Drew. When the ball goes inside-out, those are places he needs to be aggressive to keep the D honest.
There are plenty of places for him to be aggressive while he integrates with the starters...preseason is the place to set the tone and learn how to play with them. Why give him an opportunity to reinforce bad habits like ball stopping or forcing shots against defenders? You reel that in from day 1. |
I did not realize that. I agree with you that Artest should start on the first day of preseason, to integrate into the triangle offense. |
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17674
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Ron Artest-I ALREADY LANDED A MOVIE DEAL. IN ONE DAY
So that somewhat proves comein to LA for less would be ok because of the endorsements
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"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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targetman
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Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 5503
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | Ron Artest-I ALREADY LANDED A MOVIE DEAL. IN ONE DAY
So that somewhat proves comein to LA for less would be ok because of the endorsements |
???????????
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| targetman wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | Ron Artest-I ALREADY LANDED A MOVIE DEAL. IN ONE DAY
So that somewhat proves comein to LA for less would be ok because of the endorsements |
??????????? |
Many people had been saying Its ok to take a paycut in LA because you would make it right back in endorsements...And Artest saying that is an example of that...
???????????
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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Wolverine
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Joined: 21 Mar 2004
Posts: 7846
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| JUST-MING wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | Got to disagree with you here, Wolfy. You start him in preseason from game 1 and get him integrated. IF he doesn't play team ball, then you move him to the bench or sub him out for Luke. In fact, the moment he takes bad shots with that unit or stops the ball, you pull him ... and point out what he did. Let him sit, think about it and then throw him back in.
You also give him plenty to do when he's on the court: bring the ball up to initiate the offense... get in the post and pound people (nothing wrong with him being aggressive there, you want that).
I also disagree about Ron not wanting to stand around at the three line. Ron actually does a ton of standing around the three-point line these days. He was 20th in threes taken, 14th in threes made last year. That's a big part of his game these days. He'll space the floor and he'll get open looks from three. More importantly, he also shot better from three than any other Laker did last season. You want him spacing the floor for Kobe, Pau and Drew. When the ball goes inside-out, those are places he needs to be aggressive to keep the D honest.
There are plenty of places for him to be aggressive while he integrates with the starters...preseason is the place to set the tone and learn how to play with them. Why give him an opportunity to reinforce bad habits like ball stopping or forcing shots against defenders? You reel that in from day 1. |
I did not realize that. I agree with you that Artest should start on the first day of preseason, to integrate into the triangle offense. |
You also want him starting for defensive reasons. Melo, Carter, Pierce and Lebron don't come off the bench. |
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waterman40
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Location: Central Coast
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Some people are afraid that ron is going to come here and try to shoot 25 times a game, do things his own way, like a taller version of Allen Iverson. Really though, I think Ron is a very compliant player, especially to a respected coach like Phil Jackson. Ron will be one of the easier players for Phil to coach. Ron wants simply...........
Ron wants:
to win a ring
to play for Phil
to play with Kobe, Lamar
to play with intensity and for those who play with intensity
to win, hates to lose
to be liked, to fit in, and will adjust to fit our winning program
to play defense, to do whatever is necessary
I think you put all this together and it will be like Gasol, he will figure out what he is suppossed to do, where to go in the triangle, especially since he has the training camp. He might get less minutes at first, but you start him.
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolverine wrote: |
You also want him starting for defensive reasons. Melo, Carter, Pierce and Lebron don't come off the bench. |
Yeah, obviously, there is that whole other side of the court, too, that Luke won't be locking down anytime soon. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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DB - Good points.
I wasn't thinking best case scenario, more about what would be an easy transition.
Best case - Artest starts GETS it, becomes a player that we can depend on to play within the offense and be a heck of a defender. I just find it a bit tough to see him playing well off the ball with Kobe/Gasol. He's more of an on the ball player, offensively. He didn't really excel with Yao/T-Mac and Adelman brought him off the bench for that reason ... before T-Mac went down. Adelman's no Phil, and Yao/T-Mac are not even in the same region as Kobe/Gasol, but it was hard for those 3 guys to fit in because Artest and T-Mac never really played well with one another.
Especially good point about the 3 point shooting - but he's going to need to cut, post up and do some ballhandling too as a starter. Those have more concerned than the 3 point shooting.
I'd love to see him be an impact starter ... but there are some positives in bringing him off the bench too, IMO. At the same time, starting Walton gives us a pass first guy who sets up the bigs (AB/Pau) something I am also a big fan of .... one of the things I really want to see next season is AB/Pau play better together in the same lineup. That won't happen unless we start going into them more consistently. Which is why I suggest Walton starting.
Still, ideally Artest learns to play the right way and groomed for that from day. I'm a bit skeptical of that working out though, to tell you the truth. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Ron should come off the bench, atleast initially. He is an aggressive player, and we won't want him to just stand around there. I can't see Ron play half ass and do well. He plays a very intense game, and bottling that up will be very hard. |
I understand your reasoning, but that's a recipe for trouble. First of all, I want to see him on the court with Kobe, not with the second unit. Kobe is the one guy who can get in Ron's face. Second, he would dominate Lamar in the second unit. It's not hard to imagine the second unit consisting of Ron, Sasha, and Jordan jacking up jump shots. Third, I want to see him defending the opponent's starting SF, not a second unit SF. If you think a guy is an elite defender, you use him against elite scorers, not against backups. |
He would do all of that in the important moments - regarding the defense and SF position. Closing the halves. But I get both your and DB's points. It is far better if he works out as a starter. My assumption is that he's not going to change after developing the habits he has over the decade in the NBA. Another thing I would like to see next season is better play from AB/Pau together. Well that won't happen unless we put out players with them that can get them the ball, which again judging from Artest/Kobe/Fish mentalities (shoot first) won't happen. Without a real point guard or a pass first set up man, it will be very hard to get BOTH bigs going early on.
Interesting to see how it plays out. It will be fun to see these developments - and no doubt I think Phil will go with you and DB, start Artest. |
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Snap Craft
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Joined: 04 Jul 2009
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Snap Craft wrote: | I've been a fan since '86. I've never seen a free agent give quotes like Artest has recently.
"I don't really care about the money," Artest told CBSSports.com in a phone interview that broke the news of his decision to sign with the Lakers. "I'll play there for nothing. ... L.A. was very interested in me, and they got me."
Yeah, never seen that. |
Are you serious? You've never seen a player say that he doesn't care about the money? That's right out of the Big Book of Sports Cliches, along with "I only care about winning" and "It's not about the money, it's about respect." |
True, but didn't he say this before the final dollar amount was decided? I don't know for sure, but if he did, that's pretty cool. Everyone wants to play in LA. (Well, maybe not so much in the mid 90s or on the Clips  ) |
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No. 17
Star Player
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 7040
Location: L.A
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | I would disregard the shooting performances. In Sac, he was #1 option.
In Houston, he was forced to #1 option. No Ming. No McGrady.
Here? #3 or #4. Large difference.
As for the ejections, he's our pitbull. That's how I see it.
It's not about the statistics for me, but rather what he provides.
1. Defense at multiple positions, especially elite SG/SF (Good luck Carmelo, LeBron, Pierce, Carter, etc.)
2. Physical play.
3. Toughness; mental fortitude, except when he loses it.
All 3 things are qualities the Lakers need. It's already a bonus that he's a triple threat player that can create his own shot and shoot well behind the arc. |
True. Plus I believe that PJ will turn his sometimes negative energy into a positive force somehow. That's where PJ makes his 12 mil.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | My assumption is that he's not going to change after developing the habits he has over the decade in the NBA. |
That's the worst-case scenario, or at least close to it. We could spend the next few years trying to pound a round peg into a square hole. Mitch and PJ must believe that Ron will be more adaptive. |
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent Video on Artest talkin to his agent
http://www.zshare.net/video/62232849d1d6c501/
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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RealOne
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Posts: 15000
Location: Retired Moniker
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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According to Ron's brother, here are the numbers he's considering:
"50,37,23,15, and a Rodmon number.. i guess yall not feeling 23..."
http://twitter.com/Daniel_Artest |
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RealOne
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LakerJam
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Joined: 02 Aug 2002
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Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | Artest's history points to danger but his skills also point to exactly why LA made this move. It comes down to what you choose to focus on. You can fixate on the Palace fight, the blowups, the gunning, and that's valid but it's not the entire picture. You also have the skills, the physical on-ball defender that just pre-empted the hopes of San Antonio and Denver to get through the west, that has Cleveland and Boston fans waving white flags.
Artest represents both danger and skillsets that match up against the top contenders. Both. Anyone trying to portray just one of those two as absolute truth is wrong. Ventura and 2000 focuisng on the danger exclusively, more LA fans focusing on the skillsets exclusively.
So the Lakers take on both, obviously making the bet that that Jackson, Kobe, Odom and winning can keep Ron on the tracks. I'll take that bet. Moot anyway, Buss has taken it.
Artest went off in Sac, agreed. But most of that was against Napoleon, a hideous hire who inspired the exact same reaction in Golden State on a team full of boy scouts. I don't expect everything to go swimmingly, but I do expect that winning helps smooth the edges and that his skillsets will help this team on both ends. Rider wanted stats, Artest wants a ring.
I love this move but I am defense-first and see Artest as the perfect D weapon against the teams with the best shot of dethtroning us. Also like Artest's read/pass/post-up abilities and his 3 shot. I recognize the dangers of the shot volume, overdribbling and volcanic temper but place at least a little faith in Jackson to design a role as starter and higher option in second unit hybrids that can work. And finally some trust in Kobe and Odom as players Artest respects and likes to keep him focused on the task at hand.
If you don't trust Artest ok fine plenty of history to reach that conclusion. But saying this won't work is also distrusting Buss, Jackson, Kobe andlo Odom. I expect blowups and techs, but I also expect wins, a metric ton of them. Most of all I trust matchup advantages and skillsets - and so do the Lakers. It's why they did this. |
I absolutely love this post. It's just so spot on. I mean, I wanted Ariza as my first choice - I just think he's the more versatile defender at this point - but there's no arguing the point you raise here, Sky.
Artest is a dam good consolation prize for me. He's definitely a bigger threat and his defensive reputation will afford him more leeway against the "superstars".
Last edited by LakerJam on Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LakerJam
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Joined: 02 Aug 2002
Posts: 18410
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Bottom line, if Kobe, Phil, Mitch, Dr. Buss and Magic talked to him and think it's worth the risk, then I support them and I support Artest. |
Yep. I don't like it, but I'll trust in the front office that this is going to work. |
I was shocked and at first wondered about the move myself.
But the more I thought about it, the more it makes sense.
Ron Artest is a much better defensive matchup against either the Cavs or Celtics going foward. He will take a lot of defensive pressure off Kobe and assuming LO is resigned, provides a 2nd "street tough" kind of player that the Lakers still needed...despite just winning the title.
Certainly, there is some risk with Artest, but he was well behaved in Houston last year and clearly wants to win. It took some brass balls to make the move, I give the Lakers credit.
But the main thing now is to get Lamar Odom under contract and mitigate the financial damage by dealing Vujacic, Morrison, Walton down the road. |
Actually, I want to keep Luke Walton. He played good basketball for us on both ends of the court this post season. He did his job well. It's time fans stopped living in the past by trashing him. He has earned his props and I'm fine with him on this team. He brings his own unique talents to this team and legitimately contributed to our title run. Can't ask for more than that from an "average salary" player. |
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Drifts
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Artest I think will file for a leave of absence as soon as the season starts. hahahaha
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"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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MIMLaker
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Location: Los Angeles/ Alhambra, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: |
Actually, I want to keep Luke Walton. He played good basketball for us on both ends of the court this post season. He did his job well. It's time fans stopped living in the past by trashing him. He has earned his props and I'm fine with him on this team. He brings his own unique talents to this team and legitimately contributed to our title run. Can't ask for more than that from an "average salary" player. |
Agreed. With Luke on, even though he doesn't have the wheels of an Artest or an Odom, we'd have an incredibly versatile frontcourt -- possibly the most talented forward and center rotations we've had since the Showtime era.
Inside scoring: ALL.
Slashers: LO, RA, LW (limited)
3-shooters: RA, LW, LO (limited)
Rebounders: AB, PG, LO, RA
Running point on the break: LO, LW
Post passers: PG, LO, LW.
Shot blockers: AB, PG, LO
Post defenders: AB, PG, LO, RA
Shot-blockers: AB, PG
If, if, if, IF!!!! LO re-ups with us, this could be an all-time frontcourt here.
MIM
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Keep or Dump Power Rankings (4/12/23):
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kenny96825
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Drifts wrote: | | Artest I think will file for a leave of absence as soon as the season starts. hahahaha |
That would be Shaq you're talking about. |
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ViolaMB
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:51 am Post subject: |
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Man how i didn't like Ron Ron when we played Houston, but now...  keeps gettin' better and better 
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LaKer.FaNaTiK.4.LyFe
Sixth Man
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Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| I SAY MITCH GOES AND BUYS HIMSELF A SHIRT THAT SAYS "I GOT IT FOR CHEAP" |
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DiegoAO
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Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Bryant, Gasol, Odom, Artest, Bynum, Fisher, etc....I Love L.A.!!!
I cant imagine a team who can beat them |
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DimesnD
Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Posts: 944
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | Lakers_2000 wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Lakers_2000 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | No trade or acquisition is a slam dunk. There's always some percentage of uncertainty. But sometimes you decide to take the risk, HOPING that the gamble pays off. Yes, there is an element of "hope" involved when taking a calculated risk. So what? So now "hope" is a dirty word implying ignorance of the facts? Nope. Not even close. |
You're right that no acquisition is ever a slam dunk. But like with investing, managing the risk is vitally important. If we were an aging team close to winning it all but still an underdog, then it's worth rolling the dice for an all-or-nothing type move.
But we're not. We're the defending champs with years left on the title window. If we resigned our own guys we'd be the clear favorites again. Why risk blowing it on an all-or-nothing type swap? We've just taken on a guy who has imploded every season.
If we resigned Ariza and Odom and told Artest he can come here for the league minimum and be a backup I'd have no problem with that. That's a good risk. If Artest plays to his talent for the 1st time in his life, then you've got an unreal 6th man. If he doesn't you cut him and you're back to your championship rotation.
That would have been a good risk. Unfortunately for us, all Artest has to do is the same thing he's done every year and this becomes a bad deal. That's a bad risk. |
Making things up to prove a point. Kudos to you. |
Yet another intelligent rebuttal. I'll show you how it's done.
2002 season - Easily his least-destructive year. Only misses 59% of his shots in the playoffs as Pacers lose in 1st Round.
2003 season - Not yet completely self-destructive but the start of being thoroughly anti-clutch. Misses 61% of his shots as the Pacers lose in 6 in the 1st Round. 6-18 in closeout game.
2004 season - Self-destructs in 6-game series to Pistons. Shoots 6-23, 5-21, 4-13, 8-19, 4-15, and 4-13, shooting under 30% for the series.
2005 season - starts a riot, suspended for season.
2006 season (with Pacers) - After the Pacers welcome him back, Artest asks for a month off to promote his rap album and is deactivated. Demands trade. Gets a trade to Kings, which he refuses. Then accepts trade and says he wants to play for Kings.
2006 season (after trade to Kings) - Artest shoots 38% in 5 playoff games as Kings dropped in 6. Why does he only play 5 of the games? Because he was suspended once again for 1 of the games. Shoots 2-11 in the closeout game.
2007-2008 seasons - leads Kings to the lottery. Wears out welcome with 3rd team after refusing to play team ball. Traded to the Rockets for scrubs.
2009 playoffs vs Lakers - Artest kicked out of 2 games; Shoots 17-61 in the final 4 games. As is becoming a clear pattern, shoots 3-10 for 7 points in the all-important Game 7.
Now, do you have an intelligent rebuttal? Since you said I was making things up regarding Artest's annual self-destruction, I'd specifically like to see you point out to me some seasons where Artest was an asset to team both in the regular season and for the full playoffs. Please help me see how Artest will stay mentally strong under the stress of the playoffs for all 4 rounds. |
You think an ejection is a testimony of self-destruction. That in itself is a farce. Try again.
Edit - Whoa. You just snuck in a few bad shooting games as an example of a self-destruction. My favorite current Laker has been guilty of having the same things during close out games.
Wow. Just stop boss. Horrific examples.
Totally full of (bleep). Those last two years were complete manipulations of the fact. |
I don't like that list either.
If a list were to be manufactured for someone who was a Kobe hater - it might also read like that.
Shot 2 airballs in playoffs against Utah in rookie season. Got in situation where he was accused of rape and destroyed thier season. Went 8-24 (something like that) in closeout game against the pistons. Ran Shaq out of town. Accused team mate of hitting on his wife. Called out his team mate and said "ship his A%% out." Demanded to traded to Pluto. Forced his former mentor to trade an All-star to him. Went 7-22 in closeout game and missed chippies all series long and laughed about it.
What a cancer Kobe was before this season. |
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JustSomeJoe
Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 1871
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakers_2000 wrote: | | 2009 playoffs vs Lakers - Artest kicked out of 2 games; Shoots 17-61 in the final 4 games. As is becoming a clear pattern, shoots 3-10 for 7 points in the all-important Game 7. |
Your argument would hold more water if it weren't for the obvious cherry picking.
For instance, you include Games 4-7... games Artest was obviously forced to play the option #1 role (something he'll never be forced to do in L.A.), but you completely omit Games 1, 2, and 3 when Yao was healthy and Bill was playing a complementary role. Why? Did those games defeat your theory? Lets take a look.
Game 1: 21 pts, 7 asts, on 8-15 shooting including 3-6 from 3.
Game 2: 25 pts, 5 asts, on 8-14 shooting including 4-7 from 3.
Game 3: 25 pts, 6 rbs, on 10-23 shooting, yet only 2-8 from 3.
Over the 1st 3 games as option #2a, 24 pts, 4 asts, 4 rbs, on 50% shooting, 43% from 3.
Does he have a fairly horrific past? Uh, duh! How the hell else could we get a guy, with as many positives as he possesses, for the MLE?
The man has the ability to be a ****ing nightmare for the opposition as OPTION 4, he's coming to a team filled with staff, players, and a legacy ANY player would respect, he's coming with a reputation as basically a failure, and he's got the opportunity to turn it all around.
Is he a gamble? Hell yes. But, he's only here for the MLE, you can expect some pretty healthy protection clauses to be written into the contract, and if worse comes to worse i.e. he blows up and kills a little girl sittin' courtside with his bare hands, he's gone and you plug LO into the SF spot.
Low risk, high reward. That's how the Doc operates. |
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