to vaccinate or not?
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LakersRGolden
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:01 am    Post subject:

Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds


Color me surprised. Not. And will we ever see an apology for the thousands of illnesses and hundreds of deaths caused directly by people because of this study who used it to influence gullible people? Probably not.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds


Too bad the damage has already been done. The people who have already been strongly persuaded by this fraud are going to have a hard time changing their minds.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:53 pm    Post subject:

it was already well known that Wakefield was fraudulent -- The Lancet (the journal that published the original study) retracted it, and the British Medical Association stripped him of his medical license. But it was nice to see the journalist follow-up so thoroughly, and document the distortion and misrepresentation of basic facts. Here are a couple good summaries:

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2688

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/01/piltdown_medicine_andrew_wakefields_scie.php

And you're right about this likely making no difference to those who have already been strongly persuaded. Both articles above touch on this.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:38 pm    Post subject:

55 wrote:
Couple of doctors I've spoken to about the Autism rise have speculated that it could be due to women having children at an older age.

Thoughts?


Most of my family is in medicine and when I had this discussion with them this is what they also suspected as well.

Another thing I've wondered is whether there is actually a rise in Autism or a rise in the diagnosis of Autism. Someone have stats for that?

In any event...if this were China, that doctor would have faced a firing squad and I wouldn't lose an ounce of sleep over it.


Last edited by jonnybravo on Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:47 pm    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
it was already well known that Wakefield was fraudulent -- The Lancet (the journal that published the original study) retracted it, and the British Medical Association stripped him of his medical license. But it was nice to see the journalist follow-up so thoroughly, and document the distortion and misrepresentation of basic facts. Here are a couple good summaries:

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2688

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/01/piltdown_medicine_andrew_wakefields_scie.php

And you're right about this likely making no difference to those who have already been strongly persuaded. Both articles above touch on this.


I actually think this would persuade a lot of people. When your smokiing gun is a crooked doctor who had his medical license taken away and a study that was "doctored", I would think most rational humans can make a decision based on that...right?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
55 wrote:
Couple of doctors I've spoken to about the Autism rise have speculated that it could be due to women having children at an older age.

Thoughts?

Another thing I've wondered is whether there is actually a rise in Autism or a rise in the diagnosis of Autism. Someone have stats for that?


I think Larry mentioned this a couple pages back.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:58 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
Most of my family is in medicine and when I had this discussion with them this is what they also suspected as well.

Another thing I've wondered is whether there is actually a rise in Autism or a rise in the diagnosis of Autism. Someone have stats for that?


Go back & read my posts in this thread.
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LarryCoon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:01 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
I actually think this would persuade a lot of people. When your smokiing gun is a crooked doctor who had his medical license taken away and a study that was "doctored"


Go read the articles I linked to. They link to the reactions from the antivaxers. When your opinion is ideological, logic and evidence do little to sway it.


Quote:
I would think most rational humans can make a decision based on that...right?


Yeah....rational humans.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
it was already well known that Wakefield was fraudulent -- The Lancet (the journal that published the original study) retracted it, and the British Medical Association stripped him of his medical license. But it was nice to see the journalist follow-up so thoroughly, and document the distortion and misrepresentation of basic facts. Here are a couple good summaries:

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2688

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/01/piltdown_medicine_andrew_wakefields_scie.php

And you're right about this likely making no difference to those who have already been strongly persuaded. Both articles above touch on this.


I actually think this would persuade a lot of people. When your smokiing gun is a crooked doctor who had his medical license taken away and a study that was "doctored", I would think most rational humans can make a decision based on that...right?


I guarantee that large numbers of them will simply claim this is a conspiracy by the drug companies and that there was no fraud.

I guarantee you Jenny McCarthy isn't simply going to say "Oops, my bad. I was wrong. Go vaccinate."
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:14 pm    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
Most of my family is in medicine and when I had this discussion with them this is what they also suspected as well.

Another thing I've wondered is whether there is actually a rise in Autism or a rise in the diagnosis of Autism. Someone have stats for that?


Go back & read my posts in this thread.


No one wants to enable my laziness? Fine...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:12 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
Most of my family is in medicine and when I had this discussion with them this is what they also suspected as well.

Another thing I've wondered is whether there is actually a rise in Autism or a rise in the diagnosis of Autism. Someone have stats for that?


Go back & read my posts in this thread.


No one wants to enable my laziness? Fine...



I'll enable it a little. :

Few Swayed by Fraud Finding in Autism Study
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:21 pm    Post subject:

Wakefield may be a fraud in himself and according to the article had a monetary hidden agenda.

STILL, there is no proof that vaccines do cause and don't cause autism. So the verdict is still out.

I read that women who take synthetic folic acid may be a factor in autism because it causes the fetus' brain to grow rapidly causing a big brain. Many children with autism have a bigger head/brain and are prone to epilepsy.

And my reason I choose not to vaccinate isn't for fear of autism alone, but also fear of acquiring an epileptic reaction and autoimmune disorders which vaccines can contribute to depending on your genetic makeup.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:46 pm    Post subject:

GoldenChild wrote:
Wakefield may be a fraud in himself and according to the article had a monetary hidden agenda.

STILL, there is no proof that vaccines do cause and don't cause autism. So the verdict is still out.

I read that women who take synthetic folic acid may be a factor in autism because it causes the fetus' brain to grow rapidly causing a big brain. Many children with autism have a bigger head/brain and are prone to epilepsy.

And my reason I choose not to vaccinate isn't for fear of autism alone, but also fear of acquiring an epileptic reaction and autoimmune disorders which vaccines can contribute to depending on your genetic makeup.


There is also no proof that aliens, or watching tv do or do not cause autism.

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:21 pm    Post subject:

msnbc article says 1 in 4 parents believe vaccines cause autism:

LINK

But there is a bright-side; Pediatricians have started fighting back by telling parents that refuse vaccination that they will not treat their children and they must find another doctor.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject:

Watson wrote:
msnbc article says 1 in 4 parents believe vaccines cause autism:

LINK

But there is a bright-side; Pediatricians have started fighting back by telling parents that refuse vaccination that they will not treat their children and they must find another doctor.


So who is liable when their children has a bad reaction to vaccines or vaccine damage? I believe vaccine companies already have their arses covered- if vaccines are to be forced there should also be accountability when something goes wrong.

Toni Braxton Holly Peete Robinson and many other famous parents say their children had seizures after vaccinations and were later diagnosed with autism.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:22 am    Post subject:

GoldenChild wrote:
Watson wrote:
msnbc article says 1 in 4 parents believe vaccines cause autism:

LINK

But there is a bright-side; Pediatricians have started fighting back by telling parents that refuse vaccination that they will not treat their children and they must find another doctor.


So who is liable when their children has a bad reaction to vaccines or vaccine damage? I believe vaccine companies already have their arses covered- if vaccines are to be forced there should also be accountability when something goes wrong.


Telling someone they should find a doctor whose philosophies of treatment match those of their own is not forcing someone to have a vaccine.

Should we hold parents who refuse vaccines liable for the increase in the diseases that the vaccines fight?

Quote:
Toni Braxton Holly Peete Robinson and many other famous parents say their children had seizures after vaccinations and were later diagnosed with autism.


I wasn't aware that being a celebrity made one an expert on the medical causes autism - especially when actual medical experts don't make that connection.

That's what is ridiculous about having these celebrity spokespersons discussing autism and vaccines as if they are medical experts. Some people are swayed by the opinions of celebrities because they are famous and attractive rather than making informed decisions based on their own investigation and advice from actual doctors.

Anyway. Regardless of the anecdotal experience of a handful of celebrities, we all actually know hundreds of non-celebrities whose kids have had teh vaccines are are 100% fine.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:07 am    Post subject:

I grew up in a era that vaccinations were a part of grade school curriculum. A era that had a school nurse on campus daily. There was no charge for the vaccinations which included mumps, measles, whooping cough, polio, chicken pox. I still have the mark from one of the vaccinations, I forget which one, that caused a scab to form. I'm a senior now and don't take the flu shot. I never have and my doctor says if I haven't had a problem I shouldn't worry. I don't have any horror stories about the shot, I just don't think it's necessary for me. I'd urge the OP to see and believe in his/her physician. If you don't trust your doctors advice I suggest a change.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:16 am    Post subject:

GoldenChild wrote:
Wakefield may be a fraud in himself and according to the article had a monetary hidden agenda.

STILL, there is no proof that vaccines do cause and don't cause autism. So the verdict is still out.

I read that women who take synthetic folic acid may be a factor in autism because it causes the fetus' brain to grow rapidly causing a big brain. Many children with autism have a bigger head/brain and are prone to epilepsy.

And my reason I choose not to vaccinate isn't for fear of autism alone, but also fear of acquiring an epileptic reaction and autoimmune disorders which vaccines can contribute to depending on your genetic makeup.


It's sad to see after the start of this thread that you choose not to vaccinate based on the reasons you laid out. I just hope your kids don't catch anything that could have been easily preventable, or weaken the herd immunity so someone else's kid gets sick. Vaccines only work well when the whole group has them. Just look at the whooping cough epidemics that are rearing their heads in areas where the herd immunity is below the threshold of effectiveness.

Lots of stuff can make you sick or cause problems. Vaccines are one of the (if not the) greatest triumphs of man. It's sad that people are so afraid of what is (arguably) the greatest quality-of-life enhancer the world has ever known.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:03 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
I grew up in a era that vaccinations were a part of grade school curriculum. A era that had a school nurse on campus daily. There was no charge for the vaccinations which included mumps, measles, whooping cough, polio, small pox. I still have the mark from one of the vaccinations, I forget which one, that caused a scab to form. I'm a senior now and don't take the flu shot. I never have and my doctor says if I haven't had a problem I shouldn't worry. I don't have any horror stories about the shot, I just don't think it's necessary for me.


Here's one problem -- something I talked about earlier in the thread, when it was active last year.

Is the flu shot necessary for your own personal health? Unless you're in a vulnerable population (such as the elderly), then probably not. You may get the flu, but whether you're willing to risk getting it and putting up with its symptoms is up to you. For the suspect populations the flu has a high mortality rate, so it's not a matter of getting sick, it's a matter of protecting your life -- so the flu shot is much more important.

Unless you're talking about certain flues making the rounds, like last year's H1N1. It had a habit of killing young and otherwise healthy people. But this year's flu doesn't seem to have that problem.

But your own personal health is just one concern. The other is the fact that you can spread it to others -- even without becoming symptomatic yourself. Come into contact with the elderly? Children? Immuno-compromised people? Pregnant women? You could inadvertently spread the flu to them -- and kill them.

Vaccines work two ways. One is direct immunity. The other is herd immunity. With herd immunity, if enough people are vaccinated, then the bug doesn't take hold in a population. It fizzles out, because there aren't enough bodies to infect.

In summary, when you vaccinate yourself, you help protect everyone.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:26 am    Post subject:

GoldenChild wrote:
So who is liable when their children has a bad reaction to vaccines or vaccine damage? I believe vaccine companies already have their arses covered- if vaccines are to be forced there should also be accountability when something goes wrong.


There is. I talked about it earlier in this thread. There is a federal fund set up, which is paid for by the tax on the vaccines. Vaccines do cause harm in rare cases, and the fund compensates those who are harmed. Since vaccines are pretty much mandatory, it makes sense to compensate those who are effectively harmed by a mandate.

The manufacturers are indeed protected. Vaccines are a low-profit endeavor, and the risk of litigation is chilling (see DuPont) and would otherwise dissuade these companies from manufacturing the vaccines at all. Since they're more-or-less compulsory, we want to protect the public AND protect the companies (and not dissuade them from producing the vaccine). The fund is a win-win.

Nothing is without risk in medicine. NOTHING. There is a small risk that a dental cleaning can cause edema, which will lead to clotting, which will lead to a pulmonary embolism, which will kill you. But you still get your teeth cleaned (I hope). Likewise, vaccines come with an inherent risk. The risk is low, but it's there. A few people will be harmed by vaccines. For example, people with undiagnosed mitochondrial disorders can be harmed. People with egg allergies can be harmed by some vaccines (because they are cultured in eggs). Etc., etc.

But the risks are very small. So small that they are overwhelmed by the benefit. You are a million times more likely to be helped by the vaccine than to be harmed by it. So much so that it's a no-brainer (or at least it should be).

Same goes for seat belts. They save millions of lives. But a few people have been trapped in cars by them and died because they were wearing them. So we weigh the risk vs. benefit, and we wear them.

The risk vs benefit with vaccines is so staggeringly high that it should be an absolute no-brainer to get vaccinated. And the saddest part is that you're not just making a decision on your own kids' behalf, you're making it on behalf of others. There are outbreaks of deadly diseases (e.g. pertussis) in areas where vaccine compliance is low, because the vaccine rates are below the herd immunity thresholds. Parents who decide not to vaccinate are killing other families' kids.

Quote:
Toni Braxton Holly Peete Robinson and many other famous parents say their children had seizures after vaccinations and were later diagnosed with autism.


There is so much wrong with this that it would take two hours for me to address it properly. Can I just say for now that this is wrong on so many levels, and get back to it later?

Except to say (quickly) that the link has been investigated thoroughly, and no connection has been found to exist. The ones that purported to (like Wakefield's which started it all) are known to be flawed (and in Wakefield's case, fraudulent).

Think of all the variables, all the noise, all the flawed memory, all the human psychology that goes into anecdotal accounts. Why on earth would you give them more credence than multiple careful scientific studies?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:30 am    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
GoldenChild wrote:
Wakefield may be a fraud in himself and according to the article had a monetary hidden agenda.

STILL, there is no proof that vaccines do cause and don't cause autism. So the verdict is still out.

I read that women who take synthetic folic acid may be a factor in autism because it causes the fetus' brain to grow rapidly causing a big brain. Many children with autism have a bigger head/brain and are prone to epilepsy.

And my reason I choose not to vaccinate isn't for fear of autism alone, but also fear of acquiring an epileptic reaction and autoimmune disorders which vaccines can contribute to depending on your genetic makeup.


It's sad to see after the start of this thread that you choose not to vaccinate based on the reasons you laid out. I just hope your kids don't catch anything that could have been easily preventable, or weaken the herd immunity so someone else's kid gets sick. Vaccines only work well when the whole group has them. Just look at the whooping cough epidemics that are rearing their heads in areas where the herd immunity is below the threshold of effectiveness.

Lots of stuff can make you sick or cause problems. Vaccines are one of the (if not the) greatest triumphs of man. It's sad that people are so afraid of what is (arguably) the greatest quality-of-life enhancer the world has ever known.


It's not sad at all in my opinion. I trust in our natural born immune system first and foremost. I allow my children to be exposed to germs and never use antibacterial wash each time they go out in public. I want them to build up their immunity naturally- nothing is wrong with that in my opinion. As a child, I was never given this many vaccines and I never got the flu shot. From personal experience, I know that too many vaccines can be toxic (my dog got overvaccinated and started having seizures). It's not unfortunate in my circumstance that I haven't been brainwashed into believing we need to get vaccinated for every little thing. Many vaccinated children still acquire the diseases they were supposed to be vaccinated against (some even get the so called symptoms right after the vaccinations). Vaccines aren't a guarantee for immunity.

I am neither pro nor anti, but this is a personal decision I have made for my family. I respect yours. Many people both pro and anti will take a very defensive stance, but I am just doing what I think is best for my family. I believe there is nothing wrong in building up natural immunity. I allow my kids fresh sunshine for vitamin D, healthy foods and plenty of rest.

And if vaccines are so great- please explain the Gardisil vaccine and why it has made so many young women sick after getting it.


Last edited by GoldenChild on Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:33 am    Post subject:

GoldenChild wrote:
STILL, there is no proof that vaccines do cause and don't cause autism. So the verdict is still out.


This is a huge logical fallacy. It essentially goes, we don't know everything to the N-th degree, therefore we don't know anything. Look at the weight and strength of all the evidence.

For that matter, there's no proof of how gravity works, but that's not going to convince me to jump out a window.

Quote:
I read that women who take synthetic folic acid may be a factor in autism because it causes the fetus' brain to grow rapidly causing a big brain. Many children with autism have a bigger head/brain and are prone to epilepsy.


I haven't read anything about a link with supplemental folic acid. (Not to say it does or doesn't exist -- I just haven't read anything about it). But it also seems that at best you're inferring causation from correlation.

Quote:
And my reason I choose not to vaccinate isn't for fear of autism alone, but also fear of acquiring an epileptic reaction and autoimmune disorders which vaccines can contribute to depending on your genetic makeup.


Have you been advised that you're a member of an at-risk population because of your genetic makeup? Or that vaccines are not indicated for you because of some diagnosed condition (like a mitochondrial disorder)?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:36 am    Post subject:

GoldenChild wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
GoldenChild wrote:
Wakefield may be a fraud in himself and according to the article had a monetary hidden agenda.

STILL, there is no proof that vaccines do cause and don't cause autism. So the verdict is still out.

I read that women who take synthetic folic acid may be a factor in autism because it causes the fetus' brain to grow rapidly causing a big brain. Many children with autism have a bigger head/brain and are prone to epilepsy.

And my reason I choose not to vaccinate isn't for fear of autism alone, but also fear of acquiring an epileptic reaction and autoimmune disorders which vaccines can contribute to depending on your genetic makeup.


It's sad to see after the start of this thread that you choose not to vaccinate based on the reasons you laid out. I just hope your kids don't catch anything that could have been easily preventable, or weaken the herd immunity so someone else's kid gets sick. Vaccines only work well when the whole group has them. Just look at the whooping cough epidemics that are rearing their heads in areas where the herd immunity is below the threshold of effectiveness.

Lots of stuff can make you sick or cause problems. Vaccines are one of the (if not the) greatest triumphs of man. It's sad that people are so afraid of what is (arguably) the greatest quality-of-life enhancer the world has ever known.


It's not sad at all in my opinion. I trust in our natural born immune system first and foremost. I allow my children to be exposed to germs and never use antibacterial wash each time they go out in public. I want them to build up their immunity naturally- nothing is wrong with that in my opinion. As a child, I was never given this many vaccines and I never got the flu shot. From personal experience, I know that too many vaccines can be toxic (my dog got overvaccinated and started having seizures). It's not unfortunate in my circumstance that I haven't been brainwashed into believing we need to get vaccinated for every little thing. Many vaccinated children still acquire the diseases they were supposed to be vaccinated against (some even get the so called symptoms right after the vaccinations). Vaccines aren't a guarantee for immunity.

I am neither pro nor anti, but this is a personal decision I have made for my family. I respect yours. Many people both pro and anti will take a very defensive stance, but I am just doing what I think is best for my family. I believe there is nothing wrong in building up natural immunity. I allow my kids fresh sunshine for vitamin D, healthy foods and plenty of rest.


Look at the world before vaccines to see how our "natural born immune system" handled certain infectious diseases and get back to me. It's not going to protect them against polio, measles, whooping cough, etc etc etc. There's a massive gulf between the common cold and those life crippling/killing diseases, and they were killing us LONG before anybody had even thought about antibacterial soap. Sunshine, vitamin D and healthy foods didn't do anything for people before we had a smallpox vaccine. There are just some things we needed vaccines to overcome, and breaking up the herd immunity is just inviting them back for another round of death and disease.

And as to the bolded point -- you understand how vaccines work right, and how unvaccinated people allow those diseases to gain a foothold they wouldn't have gotten otherwise? Vaccines aren't a 100% immunity miracle shot, they're a blanket that keeps the bad stuff out. Give diseases a window (unvaccinated) and everyone is at risk.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:49 am    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I grew up in a era that vaccinations were a part of grade school curriculum. A era that had a school nurse on campus daily. There was no charge for the vaccinations which included mumps, measles, whooping cough, polio, small pox. I still have the mark from one of the vaccinations, I forget which one, that caused a scab to form. I'm a senior now and don't take the flu shot. I never have and my doctor says if I haven't had a problem I shouldn't worry. I don't have any horror stories about the shot, I just don't think it's necessary for me.


Here's one problem -- something I talked about earlier in the thread, when it was active last year.

Is the flu shot necessary for your own personal health? Unless you're in a vulnerable population (such as the elderly), then probably not. You may get the flu, but whether you're willing to risk getting it and putting up with its symptoms is up to you. For the suspect populations the flu has a high mortality rate, so it's not a matter of getting sick, it's a matter of protecting your life -- so the flu shot is much more important.

Unless you're talking about certain flues making the rounds, like last year's H1N1. It had a habit of killing young and otherwise healthy people. But this year's flu doesn't seem to have that problem.

But your own personal health is just one concern. The other is the fact that you can spread it to others -- even without becoming symptomatic yourself. Come into contact with the elderly? Children? Immuno-compromised people? Pregnant women? You could inadvertently spread the flu to them -- and kill them.

Vaccines work two ways. One is direct immunity. The other is herd immunity. With herd immunity, if enough people are vaccinated, then the bug doesn't take hold in a population. It fizzles out, because there aren't enough bodies to infect.

In summary, when you vaccinate yourself, you help protect everyone.

I shelf in that population and not taking the shot, according to my doctor, is a personal preference that won't put others in harms way.

I'm in good health and have good health insurance. Kaiser, that affords hospital and long term care if I contract the flu. I get regular checkups monthly at the senior free clinic, so I don't put others at risk.

I've never taken the shot and will admit to having reservations. I don't want to do something because it's supposed to be a benefit.

I understand your concern and reservations relating to spreading a infection but don't believe I'm a threat. Others not in my position I suggest speak with their personal physician.

By the By; You left this portion of my post out. I'd urge the OP to see and believe in his/her physician. If you don't trust your doctors advice I suggest a change.
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Last edited by jodeke on Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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