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GoldenChild
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: Hawaii
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 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | GoldenChild wrote: | | Watson wrote: | msnbc article says 1 in 4 parents believe vaccines cause autism:
LINK
But there is a bright-side; Pediatricians have started fighting back by telling parents that refuse vaccination that they will not treat their children and they must find another doctor. |
So who is liable when their children has a bad reaction to vaccines or vaccine damage? I believe vaccine companies already have their arses covered- if vaccines are to be forced there should also be accountability when something goes wrong. |
Telling someone they should find a doctor whose philosophies of treatment match those of their own is not forcing someone to have a vaccine.
Should we hold parents who refuse vaccines liable for the increase in the diseases that the vaccines fight?
| Quote: | | Toni Braxton Holly Peete Robinson and many other famous parents say their children had seizures after vaccinations and were later diagnosed with autism. |
I wasn't aware that being a celebrity made one an expert on the medical causes autism - especially when actual medical experts don't make that connection.
That's what is ridiculous about having these celebrity spokespersons discussing autism and vaccines as if they are medical experts. Some people are swayed by the opinions of celebrities because they are famous and attractive rather than making informed decisions based on their own investigation and advice from actual doctors.
Anyway. Regardless of the anecdotal experience of a handful of celebrities, we all actually know hundreds of non-celebrities whose kids have had teh vaccines are are 100% fine. |
I never stated that celebrities are experts at autism. I just stated they were speaking from their own personal experience. They decided to vaccinated and noticed their children started having seizures. I shouldn't have brought the celebrity parents experience up in the first place, bad choice on my part. |
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GoldenChild
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | GoldenChild wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | GoldenChild wrote: | Wakefield may be a fraud in himself and according to the article had a monetary hidden agenda.
STILL, there is no proof that vaccines do cause and don't cause autism. So the verdict is still out.
I read that women who take synthetic folic acid may be a factor in autism because it causes the fetus' brain to grow rapidly causing a big brain. Many children with autism have a bigger head/brain and are prone to epilepsy.
And my reason I choose not to vaccinate isn't for fear of autism alone, but also fear of acquiring an epileptic reaction and autoimmune disorders which vaccines can contribute to depending on your genetic makeup. |
It's sad to see after the start of this thread that you choose not to vaccinate based on the reasons you laid out. I just hope your kids don't catch anything that could have been easily preventable, or weaken the herd immunity so someone else's kid gets sick. Vaccines only work well when the whole group has them. Just look at the whooping cough epidemics that are rearing their heads in areas where the herd immunity is below the threshold of effectiveness.
Lots of stuff can make you sick or cause problems. Vaccines are one of the (if not the) greatest triumphs of man. It's sad that people are so afraid of what is (arguably) the greatest quality-of-life enhancer the world has ever known. |
It's not sad at all in my opinion. I trust in our natural born immune system first and foremost. I allow my children to be exposed to germs and never use antibacterial wash each time they go out in public. I want them to build up their immunity naturally- nothing is wrong with that in my opinion. As a child, I was never given this many vaccines and I never got the flu shot. From personal experience, I know that too many vaccines can be toxic (my dog got overvaccinated and started having seizures). It's not unfortunate in my circumstance that I haven't been brainwashed into believing we need to get vaccinated for every little thing. Many vaccinated children still acquire the diseases they were supposed to be vaccinated against (some even get the so called symptoms right after the vaccinations). Vaccines aren't a guarantee for immunity.
I am neither pro nor anti, but this is a personal decision I have made for my family. I respect yours. Many people both pro and anti will take a very defensive stance, but I am just doing what I think is best for my family. I believe there is nothing wrong in building up natural immunity. I allow my kids fresh sunshine for vitamin D, healthy foods and plenty of rest. |
Look at the world before vaccines to see how our "natural born immune system" handled certain infectious diseases and get back to me. It's not going to protect them against polio, measles, whooping cough, etc etc etc. There's a massive gulf between the common cold and those life crippling/killing diseases, and they were killing us LONG before anybody had even thought about antibacterial soap. Sunshine, vitamin D and healthy foods didn't do anything for people before we had a smallpox vaccine. There are just some things we needed vaccines to overcome, and breaking up the herd immunity is just inviting them back for another round of death and disease.
And as to the bolded point -- you understand how vaccines work right, and how unvaccinated people allow those diseases to gain a foothold they wouldn't have gotten otherwise? Vaccines aren't a 100% immunity miracle shot, they're a blanket that keeps the bad stuff out. Give diseases a window (unvaccinated) and everyone is at risk. |
Yes I understand how they work. I don't 100% agree with how it works which is why I have reservations about them. I understand your point. Some vaccines have been lifesavers. Like I said I'm not anti vaccine. Just don't want to over vaccinate for every little bug or virus out there. I want my body to recognize at least some type of virus so it can at least have a natural immunity to it. The pharmacies are trying to make a vaccine for every little thing... if they could make one for the common cold they would and that is ridiculous in my opinion. We weren't born into a bubble... since birth we are exposed to all kinds of germs and viruses and that strengthens our immune system.
My cousin's mom never let her be exposed to germs as a baby. Always had to stay on the blanket when they were out in public. Their house had to be spot clean, she was a clean freak. Now she's a young woman but has so many allergies and can't eat peanuts. She thinks it's cause she wasn't exposed to germs at the young age (her parents aren't allergic to peanuts). Being exposed naturally isn't a bad thing. There's ppl who are scared of vaccines vs people who are scared of every little virus out there. |
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DuncanIdaho
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Joined: 26 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenChild wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | GoldenChild wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | GoldenChild wrote: | Wakefield may be a fraud in himself and according to the article had a monetary hidden agenda.
STILL, there is no proof that vaccines do cause and don't cause autism. So the verdict is still out.
I read that women who take synthetic folic acid may be a factor in autism because it causes the fetus' brain to grow rapidly causing a big brain. Many children with autism have a bigger head/brain and are prone to epilepsy.
And my reason I choose not to vaccinate isn't for fear of autism alone, but also fear of acquiring an epileptic reaction and autoimmune disorders which vaccines can contribute to depending on your genetic makeup. |
It's sad to see after the start of this thread that you choose not to vaccinate based on the reasons you laid out. I just hope your kids don't catch anything that could have been easily preventable, or weaken the herd immunity so someone else's kid gets sick. Vaccines only work well when the whole group has them. Just look at the whooping cough epidemics that are rearing their heads in areas where the herd immunity is below the threshold of effectiveness.
Lots of stuff can make you sick or cause problems. Vaccines are one of the (if not the) greatest triumphs of man. It's sad that people are so afraid of what is (arguably) the greatest quality-of-life enhancer the world has ever known. |
It's not sad at all in my opinion. I trust in our natural born immune system first and foremost. I allow my children to be exposed to germs and never use antibacterial wash each time they go out in public. I want them to build up their immunity naturally- nothing is wrong with that in my opinion. As a child, I was never given this many vaccines and I never got the flu shot. From personal experience, I know that too many vaccines can be toxic (my dog got overvaccinated and started having seizures). It's not unfortunate in my circumstance that I haven't been brainwashed into believing we need to get vaccinated for every little thing. Many vaccinated children still acquire the diseases they were supposed to be vaccinated against (some even get the so called symptoms right after the vaccinations). Vaccines aren't a guarantee for immunity.
I am neither pro nor anti, but this is a personal decision I have made for my family. I respect yours. Many people both pro and anti will take a very defensive stance, but I am just doing what I think is best for my family. I believe there is nothing wrong in building up natural immunity. I allow my kids fresh sunshine for vitamin D, healthy foods and plenty of rest. |
Look at the world before vaccines to see how our "natural born immune system" handled certain infectious diseases and get back to me. It's not going to protect them against polio, measles, whooping cough, etc etc etc. There's a massive gulf between the common cold and those life crippling/killing diseases, and they were killing us LONG before anybody had even thought about antibacterial soap. Sunshine, vitamin D and healthy foods didn't do anything for people before we had a smallpox vaccine. There are just some things we needed vaccines to overcome, and breaking up the herd immunity is just inviting them back for another round of death and disease.
And as to the bolded point -- you understand how vaccines work right, and how unvaccinated people allow those diseases to gain a foothold they wouldn't have gotten otherwise? Vaccines aren't a 100% immunity miracle shot, they're a blanket that keeps the bad stuff out. Give diseases a window (unvaccinated) and everyone is at risk. |
Yes I understand how they work. I don't 100% agree with how it works which is why I have reservations about them. I understand your point. Some vaccines have been lifesavers. Like I said I'm not anti vaccine. Just don't want to over vaccinate for every little bug or virus out there. I want my body to recognize at least some type of virus so it can at least have a natural immunity to it. The pharmacies are trying to make a vaccine for every little thing... if they could make one for the common cold they would and that is ridiculous in my opinion. We weren't born into a bubble... since birth we are exposed to all kinds of germs and viruses and that strengthens our immune system.
My cousin's mom never let her be exposed to germs as a baby. Always had to stay on the blanket when they were out in public. Their house had to be spot clean, she was a clean freak. Now she's a young woman but has so many allergies and can't eat peanuts. She thinks it's cause she wasn't exposed to germs at the young age (her parents aren't allergic to peanuts). Being exposed naturally isn't a bad thing. There's ppl who are scared of vaccines vs people who are scared of every little virus out there. |
I don't disagree with you about the small stuff. Heck, when I was a kid we all used to play in the dirt and do the things that kids do. We didn't live in a bubble. However, that doesn't help against some of the major illnesses that we are vaccinated against, which, if I understand you correctly, you don't disagree with. You say you don't agree 100% with the way vaccines work. Do you mean how they are administered/which are chosen/the industry, or the science behind them?
So, let me ask straight out, did you have your kids vaccinated against those major illnesses (MMR, etc)? If not, how do you reconcile that with your statement above and the basic fact that our immune systems just cannot be "taught" to fight off some of those life-threatening illnesses? Are you just wagering that everyone else being vaccinated will keep your kids safe? Please don't take this as a personal attack, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from here. |
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GoldenChild
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 3219
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | GoldenChild wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | GoldenChild wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | GoldenChild wrote: | Wakefield may be a fraud in himself and according to the article had a monetary hidden agenda.
STILL, there is no proof that vaccines do cause and don't cause autism. So the verdict is still out.
I read that women who take synthetic folic acid may be a factor in autism because it causes the fetus' brain to grow rapidly causing a big brain. Many children with autism have a bigger head/brain and are prone to epilepsy.
And my reason I choose not to vaccinate isn't for fear of autism alone, but also fear of acquiring an epileptic reaction and autoimmune disorders which vaccines can contribute to depending on your genetic makeup. |
It's sad to see after the start of this thread that you choose not to vaccinate based on the reasons you laid out. I just hope your kids don't catch anything that could have been easily preventable, or weaken the herd immunity so someone else's kid gets sick. Vaccines only work well when the whole group has them. Just look at the whooping cough epidemics that are rearing their heads in areas where the herd immunity is below the threshold of effectiveness.
Lots of stuff can make you sick or cause problems. Vaccines are one of the (if not the) greatest triumphs of man. It's sad that people are so afraid of what is (arguably) the greatest quality-of-life enhancer the world has ever known. |
It's not sad at all in my opinion. I trust in our natural born immune system first and foremost. I allow my children to be exposed to germs and never use antibacterial wash each time they go out in public. I want them to build up their immunity naturally- nothing is wrong with that in my opinion. As a child, I was never given this many vaccines and I never got the flu shot. From personal experience, I know that too many vaccines can be toxic (my dog got overvaccinated and started having seizures). It's not unfortunate in my circumstance that I haven't been brainwashed into believing we need to get vaccinated for every little thing. Many vaccinated children still acquire the diseases they were supposed to be vaccinated against (some even get the so called symptoms right after the vaccinations). Vaccines aren't a guarantee for immunity.
I am neither pro nor anti, but this is a personal decision I have made for my family. I respect yours. Many people both pro and anti will take a very defensive stance, but I am just doing what I think is best for my family. I believe there is nothing wrong in building up natural immunity. I allow my kids fresh sunshine for vitamin D, healthy foods and plenty of rest. |
Look at the world before vaccines to see how our "natural born immune system" handled certain infectious diseases and get back to me. It's not going to protect them against polio, measles, whooping cough, etc etc etc. There's a massive gulf between the common cold and those life crippling/killing diseases, and they were killing us LONG before anybody had even thought about antibacterial soap. Sunshine, vitamin D and healthy foods didn't do anything for people before we had a smallpox vaccine. There are just some things we needed vaccines to overcome, and breaking up the herd immunity is just inviting them back for another round of death and disease.
And as to the bolded point -- you understand how vaccines work right, and how unvaccinated people allow those diseases to gain a foothold they wouldn't have gotten otherwise? Vaccines aren't a 100% immunity miracle shot, they're a blanket that keeps the bad stuff out. Give diseases a window (unvaccinated) and everyone is at risk. |
Yes I understand how they work. I don't 100% agree with how it works which is why I have reservations about them. I understand your point. Some vaccines have been lifesavers. Like I said I'm not anti vaccine. Just don't want to over vaccinate for every little bug or virus out there. I want my body to recognize at least some type of virus so it can at least have a natural immunity to it. The pharmacies are trying to make a vaccine for every little thing... if they could make one for the common cold they would and that is ridiculous in my opinion. We weren't born into a bubble... since birth we are exposed to all kinds of germs and viruses and that strengthens our immune system.
My cousin's mom never let her be exposed to germs as a baby. Always had to stay on the blanket when they were out in public. Their house had to be spot clean, she was a clean freak. Now she's a young woman but has so many allergies and can't eat peanuts. She thinks it's cause she wasn't exposed to germs at the young age (her parents aren't allergic to peanuts). Being exposed naturally isn't a bad thing. There's ppl who are scared of vaccines vs people who are scared of every little virus out there. |
I don't disagree with you about the small stuff. Heck, when I was a kid we all used to play in the dirt and do the things that kids do. We didn't live in a bubble. However, that doesn't help against some of the major illnesses that we are vaccinated against, which, if I understand you correctly, you don't disagree with. You say you don't agree 100% with the way vaccines work. Do you mean how they are administered/which are chosen/the industry, or the science behind them?
So, let me ask straight out, did you have your kids vaccinated against those major illnesses (MMR, etc)? If not, how do you reconcile that with your statement above and the basic fact that our immune systems just cannot be "taught" to fight off some of those life-threatening illnesses? Are you just wagering that everyone else being vaccinated will keep your kids safe? Please don't take this as a personal attack, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from here. |
My children have been vaccinated for almost all except for MMR and chickenpox. Looking back, I regret it - they got too many in a short period of time. At that time, the nurses scared us into getting them all at once.
I got the chickenpox naturally and I never got the MMR. I didn't fair so bad when I had chickenpox just itchy. I still have reservations about live vaccines (knowing that live vaccines can cross blood brain barrier)- which is why I refused it for my kids since their brains aren't fully developed yet. I have confident that their immunity is sufficient enough to conquer the chicken pox and measles virus like so many other children are able to do so. Chicken pox isn't deadly virus... I know so many who've had it.
As for your question on how vaccines work:
Naturally our bodies has barriers to protect/defend against viruses such through the mucous membranes and lymphatic system. Naturally (without intervention of vaccines) viruses are acquired through our nose or mouth. Once the virus comes in contact with the mucous membrane, an immune response is triggered which then our lymphatic system takes on additional immune response/protective role. So by the time the virus has gotten into our bloodstream, our immune system will have been ready to fully respond to the virus and protect it from attacking our vital organs.
With vaccines, especially live ones I believe, the virus bypasses the mucous membrane and lymphatic system but goes directly into our bloodstream- and some of the virus can cross the blood brain barrier and live within parts of our organs and brain. It essentially "shocks" our immune system which can sometimes trigger an overactive response which in turns is the reason for epilepsy or autoimmune response for some people. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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How vaccines work
How vaccines work with the immune system
GoldenChild
I believe some vaccinations are necessary. As a child I got the shot for measles and still got the measles, same with whooping cough and mumps. I was affected once with the illnesses.
Small pox, polio are examples of pandemics. The vaccinations for those were necessary. I'm sure the whole world wasn't vaccinated. Some immune systems were strong enough to fight the malady.
There are basic vaccinations I think should be administered. I too believe there are vaccines for monetary purposes and aren't necessary. I suggest a visit to your primary physician to see which are necessary and which should be avoided.
I've included links that are informative which may or may not elevate some of your concerns.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of people also don't realize they need to get booster shots too. It's not like all vaccines work forever once administered.
Second what jodeke posted about the primary care physician. |
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Watson
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenChild wrote: | | I am neither pro nor anti, but this is a personal decision I have made for my family. I respect yours. Many people both pro and anti will take a very defensive stance, but I am just doing what I think is best for my family. I believe there is nothing wrong in building up natural immunity. I allow my kids fresh sunshine for vitamin D, healthy foods and plenty of rest. |
Unfortunately it's not just a personal decision because of the positive externality of vaccination. It is selfish to rely on the herd immunity while not contributing to it. |
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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You've put a lot of stuff out there that's inaccurate. I'm going to have to address some of them one at a time, and maybe ask to focus the discussion for a while on specific topics rather than bouncing around. Here's a start.
| GoldenChild wrote: | | Like I said I'm not anti vaccine. Just don't want to over vaccinate for every little bug or virus out there. I want my body to recognize at least some type of virus so it can at least have a natural immunity to it. The pharmacies are trying to make a vaccine for every little thing... if they could make one for the common cold they would and that is ridiculous in my opinion. We weren't born into a bubble... since birth we are exposed to all kinds of germs and viruses and that strengthens our immune system. |
This is where I think one of your misconceptions lies. You seem to think that immunity acquired "naturally" (i.e., by exposure to actual pathogens in the wild) is different than the immunity conferred by vaccines. It's not. Immune system response is immune system response. Memory of pathogens is the same whether the pathogen was presented through infection or through vaccination.
The only difference is that via infection you get....infected. Why would you rather your child was exposed to, say, mumps, possibly get sick, and possibly even die in order to gain immunity, when the same immunity can be conferred through the vaccine, without the accompanying risks?
| Quote: | | My cousin's mom never let her be exposed to germs as a baby. Always had to stay on the blanket when they were out in public. Their house had to be spot clean, she was a clean freak. Now she's a young woman but has so many allergies and can't eat peanuts. She thinks it's cause she wasn't exposed to germs at the young age (her parents aren't allergic to peanuts). Being exposed naturally isn't a bad thing. There's ppl who are scared of vaccines vs people who are scared of every little virus out there. |
I agree that there are hundreds of thousands of pathogens out there that we are naturally exposed to. Through a normal childhood we are exposed to them, they aren't virulent enough to cause significant harm, our body develops an immune response, and in doing so confers some immunity. This happens hundreds of thousands of times during development, and this kind of exposure is important for developing a healthy immune system (in addition to the immune response to the specific pathogens). When developing immune systems aren't exposed to pathogens to respond to, it doesn't develop as well.
But this has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Over the course of a normal childhood, like I said a kid is exposed to hundreds of thousands of pathogens -- most without much or any detrimental effect. The vaccines just add a couple more specific pathogens -- ones that you really don't want to develop immunity to the hard way. It's like increasing the exposure from 100,000 to 100,010 pathogens. The immune system still develops fine, based on the 100,000 it normally sees. |
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenChild wrote: | | [I never stated that celebrities are experts at autism. I just stated they were speaking from their own personal experience. They decided to vaccinated and noticed their children started having seizures. I shouldn't have brought the celebrity parents experience up in the first place, bad choice on my part. |
It's not the celebrity part that I take issue to. Well, I do, but that's not the real problem here. It's the reliance on uncontrolled, anecdotal experience. |
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenChild wrote: | | My children have been vaccinated for almost all except for MMR and chickenpox. Looking back, I regret it - they got too many in a short period of time. |
Can you substantiate this? Can you elaborate on how you know it's too many, and too short a time period?
I know you say you're not anti-vaccine, but for someone who isn't, you sure trot out many of the anti-vax marching points. |
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenChild wrote: | | I got the chickenpox naturally and I never got the MMR. I didn't fair so bad when I had chickenpox just itchy. I still have reservations about live vaccines (knowing that live vaccines can cross blood brain barrier)- which is why I refused it for my kids since their brains aren't fully developed yet. I have confident that their immunity is sufficient enough to conquer the chicken pox and measles virus like so many other children are able to do so. Chicken pox isn't deadly virus... I know so many who've had it. |
I'm going to have to address what you said about live virus & blood-brain barrier separately.
On the chicken pox (varicella): Each year in the United States almost 4 million persons suffer from varicella, more than 10 thousand are hospitalized, and approximately 100 die. While the risks of complications from varicella are highest in adolescents and young adults, the burden of disease is greatest among children who suffer 90% of the cases, two-thirds of the hospitalizations, and almost half of the deaths that occur each year in the United States. On average, one child dies each week from this disease and most of those children are healthy at the time they contract varicella. Additionally, children are the group that serve as the primary source of transmission of varicella to groups at higher risk for severe disease, including adults and persons who are not eligible for vaccination. Complications from varicella include soft tissue infections, necrotizing fasciitis, pneumonia, cerebellar ataxia, and encephalitis. |
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hoopschick29
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: |
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The ONLY problem with childhood immunizations is that they have worked too well. A few generations pass, and people forget. You have a whole new crop of parents who have no idea what it was like before. Parents buried their young regularly because of these catastrophic diseases.
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rchanou
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LarryCoon
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markjay
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding the point that's been made a couple of times that the children of celebrities or others have gotten seizures, illnesses, or autism, after being vaccinated:
Thousands of children get seizures, illnesses, and autism at the age of 2 or 3 -- whether or not they are vaccinated for measles, mumps or other things. That's why controlled studies are needed--to find out if diseases are just coincidences, or if there are systematic relationships. By studying large numbers of children who are vaccinated and not vaccinated, doctors have found that kids who are vaccinated don't get these diseases at any higher rates than kids who aren't.
So, if you take your kid to Disneyland for the first time, and he starts to develop autism the next month, you can't assume that Disneyland "caused" his autism. Same with vaccinations. And many very large scale studies have shown there is no relationship. |
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Surfitall
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:20 am Post subject: |
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A new study shows that Kids with ASD have a higher risk of mitochondrial dysfunction than previously believed. It was a small study, with only 20 kids including the control group, but 50% of the ASD kids showed mitochondrial dysfunction vs. None for the non-ASD kids.
This seems important since the only case that has established a link to vaccines and ASD in the US vaccine courts was the famous Hanah Poling case, where it was established that she had a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder.
Here is a link to the abstract.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/304/21/2389.abstract |
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GoldenChild
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Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | How vaccines work
How vaccines work with the immune system
GoldenChild
I believe some vaccinations are necessary. As a child I got the shot for measles and still got the measles, same with whooping cough and mumps. I was affected once with the illnesses.
Small pox, polio are examples of pandemics. The vaccinations for those were necessary. I'm sure the whole world wasn't vaccinated. Some immune systems were strong enough to fight the malady.
There are basic vaccinations I think should be administered. I too believe there are vaccines for monetary purposes and aren't necessary. I suggest a visit to your primary physician to see which are necessary and which should be avoided.
I've included links that are informative which may or may not elevate some of your concerns. |
Thank you for your unbiased viewpoints and the link. |
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GoldenChild
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| LarryCoon wrote: | You've put a lot of stuff out there that's inaccurate. I'm going to have to address some of them one at a time, and maybe ask to focus the discussion for a while on specific topics rather than bouncing around. Here's a start.
| GoldenChild wrote: | | Like I said I'm not anti vaccine. Just don't want to over vaccinate for every little bug or virus out there. I want my body to recognize at least some type of virus so it can at least have a natural immunity to it. The pharmacies are trying to make a vaccine for every little thing... if they could make one for the common cold they would and that is ridiculous in my opinion. We weren't born into a bubble... since birth we are exposed to all kinds of germs and viruses and that strengthens our immune system. |
This is where I think one of your misconceptions lies. You seem to think that immunity acquired "naturally" (i.e., by exposure to actual pathogens in the wild) is different than the immunity conferred by vaccines. It's not. Immune system response is immune system response. Memory of pathogens is the same whether the pathogen was presented through infection or through vaccination.
The only difference is that via infection you get....infected. Why would you rather your child was exposed to, say, mumps, possibly get sick, and possibly even die in order to gain immunity, when the same immunity can be conferred through the vaccine, without the accompanying risks?
I understand both types (natural and via vaccine) instigate a similar type of immune response. You seem to not understand though that vaccinated children still get what they have been vaccinated for so my contention is that vaccines aren't the iron clad of curing/eliminating diseases. Also, viruses altered in labs can cause mutation of virues... sort of like what is happening with super bugs due to overuse of antibacterial products.
| Quote: | | My cousin's mom never let her be exposed to germs as a baby. Always had to stay on the blanket when they were out in public. Their house had to be spot clean, she was a clean freak. Now she's a young woman but has so many allergies and can't eat peanuts. She thinks it's cause she wasn't exposed to germs at the young age (her parents aren't allergic to peanuts). Being exposed naturally isn't a bad thing. There's ppl who are scared of vaccines vs people who are scared of every little virus out there. |
I agree that there are hundreds of thousands of pathogens out there that we are naturally exposed to. Through a normal childhood we are exposed to them, they aren't virulent enough to cause significant harm, our body develops an immune response, and in doing so confers some immunity. This happens hundreds of thousands of times during development, and this kind of exposure is important for developing a healthy immune system (in addition to the immune response to the specific pathogens). When developing immune systems aren't exposed to pathogens to respond to, it doesn't develop as well.
But this has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Over the course of a normal childhood, like I said a kid is exposed to hundreds of thousands of pathogens -- most without much or any detrimental effect. The vaccines just add a couple more specific pathogens -- ones that you really don't want to develop immunity to the hard way. It's like increasing the exposure from 100,000 to 100,010 pathogens. The immune system still develops fine, based on the 100,000 it normally sees. |
I am not trotting anti vaccine propaganda whatsoever. I'm not trying to convince anyone to not vaccinate. I'm just explaining my reasons why I choose not to. And not vaccinated isn't an ironclad rule for me. I would vaccinate for smallpox and diseases I feel are truly life threatening in which my immune system would not be capable of fighting off on its own.
I understand both types (natural and via vaccine) instigate a similar type of immune response. You seem to not understand though that vaccinated children still get what they have been vaccinated for so my contention is that vaccines aren't the iron clad of curing/eliminating diseases. Also, viruses altered in labs can cause mutation of virues... sort of like what is happening with super bugs due to overuse of antibacterial products.
Last edited by GoldenChild on Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GoldenChild
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| markjay wrote: | Regarding the point that's been made a couple of times that the children of celebrities or others have gotten seizures, illnesses, or autism, after being vaccinated:
Thousands of children get seizures, illnesses, and autism at the age of 2 or 3 -- whether or not they are vaccinated for measles, mumps or other things. That's why controlled studies are needed--to find out if diseases are just coincidences, or if there are systematic relationships. By studying large numbers of children who are vaccinated and not vaccinated, doctors have found that kids who are vaccinated don't get these diseases at any higher rates than kids who aren't.
So, if you take your kid to Disneyland for the first time, and he starts to develop autism the next month, you can't assume that Disneyland "caused" his autism. Same with vaccinations. And many very large scale studies have shown there is no relationship. |
I agree this is true. Women who experienced eclampsis and preclampsia during pregnancy have an increased rate for their offspring to develop epilepsy... it's not vaccines alone that would cause this. |
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GoldenChild
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:56 am Post subject: |
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I completely get where you're coming from. I know about tragic stories both from vaccinated and unvaccinated children. Both sides have a story to tell.
But to keep things in perspective, Things can go wrong either way. Some children who vaccinate will have a reaction that can end in death. Some unvaccinated children could acquire h1n1 that leads to pneumonia in the lungs and also die from it. What I'm trying to say is that I understand the importance of vaccines, but I don't believe in over vaccination that is all and that is the key word- Over vaccination. |
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: | A new study shows that Kids with ASD have a higher risk of mitochondrial dysfunction than previously believed. It was a small study, with only 20 kids including the control group, but 50% of the ASD kids showed mitochondrial dysfunction vs. None for the non-ASD kids.
This seems important since the only case that has established a link to vaccines and ASD in the US vaccine courts was the famous Hanah Poling case, where it was established that she had a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder.
Here is a link to the abstract.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/304/21/2389.abstract |
I don't agree with your assessment of the study. Its conclusion: "In this exploratory study, children with autism were more likely to have mitochondrial dysfunction, mtDNA overreplication, and mtDNA deletions than typically developing children." In other words, it's a pilot study showing a correlation between ASD and mitochondrial disorder. This is already pretty well known -- in fact, mitochondrial disorder can lead to symptoms similar to autism, so it's not surprising at all that people diagnosed with ASD might be more likely to have an underlying mitochondrial disorder.
I disagree with your comments on it for a few reasons (which may be me misunderstanding your implications, so correct me if I'm wrong). 1) You seem to imply an arrow of causality from ASD to mitochondrial disorder when you say "have a higher risk of" in your first sentence. You don't acquire mitochondrial disorder from any environmental factor -- you're born with it. There's no "risk of." You either have it or you don't. 2) You seem to have the cause & effect backward. It's the other way around -- as I said, mitochondrial disorder can cause ASD-like symptoms, not the other way around. 3) When you way "than previously believed," I'm not sure what you're referring to. I didn't read it in detail (although I did scan the full text), but I didn't see the study referring to what "we previously believed" was the prevalence of mtDNA disorder in ASD subjects, nor did it say this study challenged those beliefs.
On your reference to the Hanna Polling case, as you said, she was an outlier in the omnibus trials. The trials adjudicated claims against the vaccine compensation fund that the vaccines caused their children's autism. Polling was an outlier because of her mtDNA disorder, and it IS known that the vaccine can be harmful to such subjects. Therefore her claim was considered different from the others -- it had nothing to do with the others' claim that the vaccine caused ASD -- so it was separated from the others and handled separately (she was compensated, since the link between mtDNA disorder and vaccine damage is supported by the science).
The remainder of the cases proceeded to hearing. What they did was separate the remaining claims into three groups -- one saying the vaccine caused the ASD, one saying it was thimerisol, and the third saying it was a combination. They then picked what they considered the best cases from each group, and went to hearing on those (rather then conduct hearings on the thousands of claims individually). In all three hearings, the claim that the vaccine caused ASD was found to be entirely without merit.
Unfortunately, the publicity surrounding the case wasn't always grounded in fact. I remember right, even in the early part of this thread someone referred to Polling saying, "the courts have proven a link between vaccines and autism." That's entirely NOT what happened, of course. Polling had a condition that had nothing to do with the claim, and the claim itself was found to be without merit.
Steve Novella had a couple excellent articles discussing Polling, but I can't link to them right now because his site seems to be down. I'll post links when it's back up.
Last edited by LarryCoon on Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GoldenChild
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Watson wrote: | | GoldenChild wrote: | | I am neither pro nor anti, but this is a personal decision I have made for my family. I respect yours. Many people both pro and anti will take a very defensive stance, but I am just doing what I think is best for my family. I believe there is nothing wrong in building up natural immunity. I allow my kids fresh sunshine for vitamin D, healthy foods and plenty of rest. |
Unfortunately it's not just a personal decision because of the positive externality of vaccination. It is selfish to rely on the herd immunity while not contributing to it. |
Honestly, it never occurred to me I was relying on herd immunity. I always thought I was relying on my robust immunity because I take care of it. Frankly, I think the herd immunity has compromised immunity so it wouldn't make sense to me to want to rely on it. |
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenChild wrote: | | I am not trotting anti vaccine propaganda whatsoever. I'm not trying to convince anyone to not vaccinate. I'm just explaining my reasons why I choose not to. |
I didn't mean to imply that you were spouting the antivax propaganda to anyone who would listen, nor did I mean to imply that you were trying to convince anyone not to vaccinate. My point was some of the reasons you cited, and people you sited, are straight out of the antivax camp. Your posts in the early part of this thread linked directly to Mercola. It can be demonstrated that he's completely full of it. I'm not saying you're anti-vax -- I'm asking you to consider whether your reasons were developed through consideration of the best sources.
| Quote: | | And not vaccinated isn't an ironclad rule for me. I would vaccinate for smallpox and diseases I feel are truly life threatening in which my immune system would not be capable of fighting off on its own. |
You specifically cited varicella (chicken pox) as one of the ones that's no big deal. I responded by pointing out the mortality rates (and other complications) from varicella. MOST people fight off many such diseases, with no lasting effects other than a few pox scars. A few aren't so lucky. There's a risk/benefit to consider here, which is one of my central themes which I'll address (again) below.
| Quote: | | I understand both types (natural and via vaccine) instigate a similar type of immune response. You seem to not understand though that vaccinated children still get what they have been vaccinated for so my contention is that vaccines aren't the iron clad of curing/eliminating diseases. |
Of course not. No one claimed that it eliminated 100%. But that's a logical fallacy (its name escapes me right this second -- sorry). The perception that if something isn't 100% effective then it's worthless. Do I really need to cite statistics (again) on the prevalence of the various diseases before and after vaccines were developed? How much the death rates have gone down since the vaccines were developed? It doesn't NEED a 100% effective rate to be highly effective, especially when you consider herd immunity.
| Quote: | | Also, viruses altered in labs can cause mutation of virues... sort of like what is happening with super bugs due to overuse of antibacterial products. |
This doesn't really make a lot of sense. Viruses mutate ALL THE TIME, at a very high rate. There's no "altered in labs" that's a factor here.
As for the superbugs -- this is true but unrelated. By killing off most (but not all) of the bacteria (including through over prescribed and improperly used antibiotics) we create selective pressures on the germs which select for mutations that are more resistant. We're therefore helping to culture antibiotic-resistant bacteria, and this is why we're on third- and fourth-generation antibiotics -- and why bacteria that resist ALL antibiotics are a real threat in the future.
But viruses don't work like that (remember, antibiotics and antibacterials don't work against viruses), and this is disanalogous to the vaccine process. One method attacks the bugs; the other improves our ability to fight the bugs. |
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenChild wrote: | I completely get where you're coming from. I know about tragic stories both from vaccinated and unvaccinated children. Both sides have a story to tell.
But to keep things in perspective, Things can go wrong either way. Some children who vaccinate will have a reaction that can end in death. Some unvaccinated children could acquire h1n1 that leads to pneumonia in the lungs and also die from it. What I'm trying to say is that I understand the importance of vaccines, but I don't believe in over vaccination that is all and that is the key word- Over vaccination. |
Here's where I go back into risk vs. benefit. I've already used the seat belt example twice at least twice in this thread, but I'll use it again since it provides a good analogy.
To use a parallel line of reasoning to what you say above, I can say that some people in accidents are saved by seat belts, and that some people in accidents are trapped in their cars by their seat belts and killed because they were waiving them. I could then say (like you did) that "both sides have a story to tell," and leave it at that.
The problem with that line of reasoning comes when you quantify risk vs. benefit. As I said, EVERYTHING in medicine is a risk vs. benefit proposition.
As I said earlier, even such trivial matters as dental cleanings have an inherent risk vs. reward. They can, in rare cases, cause edema, leading to clotting, leading to a pulmonary embolism, leading to death. People at the funeral are heard to mutter, "Pitty about Harold, but he sure has clean teeth!"
Likewise surgery contains all sorts of possibilities for complications, of which you are fully informed when you sign the consent form. These complications are very real, and very common.
So why get your teeth cleaned OR have surgery? The explaining factor is risk vs. benefit. In the dental cleaning case, the risk is so low that the benefit of oral hygiene significantly outweighs it. Likewise, consideration over the possible complications from surgery isn't the overriding factor when your chest needs to be cracked to repair your ruptured aorta. Risk vs. benefit not only exists with everything in medicine, it's the most important consideration.
Vaccines are no different. There's a risk with the vaccine. There's a benefit to the vaccine. Each vaccine has been studied over and over, and those that are made publicly available are the ones where the benefit overwhelms the risk. Millions of people have been saved from death and suffering from the polio vaccine, for example (how many iron lungs have you seen in your lifetime?). One in a million is harmed by the polio vaccine. What do you think the risk vs. benefit is?
In my opinion, you're like the one of the people who won't wear a seat belt after seeing the statistics of people who die while wearing them. Or, since you're in favor of only some vaccines, maybe a more apt analogy is to say you're like one of the people who won't wear a seat belt on a day he's wearing a nice shirt.
I think you're over-representing the risks, and under-representing the benefits in your arguments, which results in your assessment of the risk vs. benefit to be ill-considered. I also think your assessments of the risk & benefit is compromised by your assimilating several misconceptions about vaccines and the immune system, which sound to me like they came from the anti-vax camps.
I hope you don't take the above too personally -- I'm really trying to encourage a rational discussion rather than just rail on you. As you can probably tell, it's an issue I think is very important, and one where activism is required, because there's a vocal subset of people on the other side pushing misinformation. And it has a body count -- kids are dying. In the 21st century. Preventably. Due to the spread of misinformation.
Last edited by LarryCoon on Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kobe1kanobe
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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Gonna comment cuz I also think there is too much misinformation on vaccinations and people are actually being harmed.
There are great responses in this thread already but the most important point is herd immunity. There are kids that are allergic to everything, meaning it's hard for them to get vaccinated, they depend on herd immunity to protect them.
Ask your doctor first and foremost, and if there is no complications with your child get them the vaccination.
It's pathetic and sad, that kids in poor countries are dying for a chance to be vaccinated and we here are actually talking about not taking them as an option.
Just a sad statistic, but the death rate of a new born in poor areas of the world is 25%, would you accept that? Meaning 1 out of 4 babies born will end up dying in the first month. This is why some poor countries throw huge celebrations for a baby passing the first month. We here in a modern country are talking about vaccinations as an option? Give me a break.
Last edited by kobe1kanobe on Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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