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Mark10 45
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:30 pm    Post subject:

LakersForever123 wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
good to see you @lakersforever123 ; I just wanted a fresh start



You will probably will outpost me in 2 months! Lol


haha Kiroe would have but me na! lol
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:35 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
adkindo wrote:
What is the general thought on LAL's expected draft strategy @ #22? Is the priority on a guy that can contribute in 2021-22 or a guy with more upside in future years? I would think a guy like Duarte is more likely to potentially help off the bench next year, but I think there will be guys with much higher upside on the board @ #22.....and I would prefer the latter.

Personally, I would take a swing at a guy that can be a starter on an AD led team....and I would buy a 2nd if I thought I could take another swing at an upside guy even if the percentages are low. I think the FO needs to be a little risky right now with so little draft capital or cap money to use in the near future, but my fear is it will be all about next year.

Is Chris Duarte a better prospect than Josh Hart?


I personally would not bet on it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:55 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
lakerfanaticPT wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
lakerfanaticPT wrote:
To me the Lakers need to take a long look at Duarte if they keep their pick. Older, more developed physically, nice shooting stroke, good defender. Would fit nicely as back up 2. In fact I would start THT or Caruso at 2 next season and trade KCP for a signed Doug McDermott😎


I think LAL already proved that shooters that can't defend, don't play.


I think he would play enough to make his mark.....maybe not crunch time but his shot would be a great asset for LeBron and the Lakers


I mean LAL is where shooters go to die. Danny Green, Wes Mathews, McLemore, even Schroeder was 38.5% at OKC and KCP just disappeared.

I disagree that shooting fixes everything for LAL, which is especially why I'm not looking at that one specific skill for the draft.


Agree about the draft....that's why Duarte looks great to me as he does many things and is mature/ready to go.

As far as McDermott.....someone who comes to LA has to be able to still shoot. I know they never seem to be able to, but maybe Douggie can???
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:02 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
I know they never seem to be able to, but maybe Douggie can???


I don't see how he's that much different from the others, outside of some off ball cuts.

He's not some dynamic ball handler, and he's a negative defender.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
adkindo wrote:
What is the general thought on LAL's expected draft strategy @ #22? Is the priority on a guy that can contribute in 2021-22 or a guy with more upside in future years? I would think a guy like Duarte is more likely to potentially help off the bench next year, but I think there will be guys with much higher upside on the board @ #22.....and I would prefer the latter.

Personally, I would take a swing at a guy that can be a starter on an AD led team....and I would buy a 2nd if I thought I could take another swing at an upside guy even if the percentages are low. I think the FO needs to be a little risky right now with so little draft capital or cap money to use in the near future, but my fear is it will be all about next year.

Is Chris Duarte a better prospect than Josh Hart?


I personally would not bet on it.

And Hart wasn't going to be a rotation player on a playoff team as a rookie.

I'm with you - the Lakers need to try and find their Tony Parker, Gobert, Siaiam, etc. whether that's a four year college kid they think has untapped potential or a 19-year-old kid from Latvia or wherever.
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Megaton
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:05 pm    Post subject:

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/2021-nba-mock-draft-round-1-pick-projections-all-30-teams

Quote:
22: Lakers select:
Ziaire Williams
Age: 19
Measurables: 6-foot-8, 185 pounds
If the Lakers want to grease the skids for LeBron James playing with his son in the NBA, they’ll select Williams, who was the high school teammate of Bronny at Sierra Canyon. Williams actually makes sense for L.A. as a young, athletic playmaker with defensive upside.


Interesting point about us drafting Ziaire. It kinda makes sense to me. We’ve been on a Klutch hoarding spree since Lebron with AD, KCP, Trez, THT, etc. Drafting someone with connection to Lebron’s son. So this pick would be consistent with how the Lakers have been operating these last few years. He’s also a wing player which is a big need for us.

Any thoughts on him?
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:17 pm    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
Hey y’all it’s Kiroe. Hope everyone’s doing great! Really. Bless y’all.

So of course as Yimoma properly brings up the question - who are some potential plug and play guys; as we’re contending and have holes.
@LakersMD brought up a name that I’m starting to like - Trey Murphy. He’s a mid 40s 3pt shooting 6’9 long wing who is widely regarded as a good defender + potential “go stick him” chess piece. I like to look at tools - and he has them: very good feet and hips, near Brandon Ingram length, his arms are always up and active, always gets a good contest. I’m not sure but I think the consensus on him is a fringe 1st round guy. He’s a legit, widely regarded good 1v1 defender; and he’s a high volume 43% 3pt shooter. He’s an above average leaper; some huge dunks.

What’s his shot like: he has a mid level release, not high but above the shoulder on his right side - sometimes this low-ish release gets him in trouble. Nonetheless he sets his feet quickly, relocates and sets quickly - these are traits that should help him at the next level.
He’s not totally inept as a traditional SF ballhandler - he can attack closeouts but you don’t want him creating simply because he can’t shoot off the dribble and isn’t a good finisher if it’s not a dunk.


My favorite player in the draft is JT Thor.. not the best player but he’s an underrated potential 2way Lamar Odom type. Not as much handles/passing as Odom, but uptick the shooting greatly - and he’s a really good long defender. Shoots off the dribble 3s.
He’s something of a project, although he can shoot right now and has defense chops - he’s just like 15lbs underweight from being a solid NBA PF right now. He has some AD length blocks.. and his shooting off the dribble for his size and length is special.

I also like Vrenz. He’s a pure project.. but I don’t doubt him becoming a really good 3pt shooter. Has Houston Chandler Parson’s offensive upside.

Miles McBride is interesting but he’s yet another combo guard - he doesn’t fill a need for us and I’m not completely convinced of his shooting profile - I think he’ll be a solid shooter from 3. But some of his shooting from 10-15ft is just oddly bad. I don’t too much trust his form; but concede with his %s shooting this year specifically (11%uptick and FTs) he’ll be a solid C&S guy.

But, we need a player who can defend the Booker’s and modern wings.. Or we need a PG who can distribute. McBride is a really good feisty defender, but he’s bordering 6’3 ; and he’s a combo guard with a non PG handle.. he has some skill potential - Id probably rank him at least early 20s in the draft, but I don’t care for his fit with us.

I really like Davion Mitchell. Some of his attacking plays are special..the burst and moves are there. He’d be the 2 way impact small guard id be ok with. Because we could also use another player who can just create his own, defend, and shoot.

Who are the more pure set-up PGs?

Daishen Nix is raw but intruiging. He’s 6’5 in shoes, got THT’s body without outlier length. His Jumper and form is coming along. He’s a former QB and can really pass the ball well; but he also has some score 1st instincts. He’s a multi year project, but I’m for drafting a PG in general. He’s kind of an Andre Miller comp.

Another PG is David Johnson from Louisville .. his P&R passing is high level. He’s another tall and big PG. He’s longer than Nix and a better defender. If his 3pt form wasn’t iffy, and low volume ; I’d have no qualms at all about drafting him. He plays the big PG game really well. And I really like his defensive potential.

edit: so David Johnson reminds me of Malcom Brogdon in a lot of ways. same big guard size.. a combo guard that has legit PG chops, he can run your offense at times and orchestrate really well; can make some great great passes in the P&R consistently. He's a legit defender, both 1v1 he's solid but he also has team D instincts - it's a joy to watch Caruso play - and Johnson has a bit of those instincts. The more I watch his jumper - there's a chance it could be decent early... With the college line being closer to the NBA the past 2 years - shooting translation is easier to count on and predict. He could clean up his form this summer and be a decent shooter - his form even reminds me of Brogdon a bit.
Honeslty - we have 3 holes in our team that could hinder us from a ring - shooting, a good passing creator besides Bron, and a defender for great wings. shooting+defender are probably the 2 main weaknesses we need to address - I doubt Johnson addresses either.. but he's got a chance to be a really good player.
https://youtu.be/C6zErvKPurk?t=323 here's a nice play from him - he crashed for an Oboard and is stuck - fires a crosscourt bounce pass in between players into a teammates shooting pocket - then he gets another Oboard layup to finish the posession. He's a really good rebounder - he's probably 6"5.5 and long. I actually think he can defend big SGs well.

Hey KiROE! Welcome back!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:27 pm    Post subject:

Megaton wrote:
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/2021-nba-mock-draft-round-1-pick-projections-all-30-teams

Quote:
22: Lakers select:
Ziaire Williams
Age: 19
Measurables: 6-foot-8, 185 pounds
If the Lakers want to grease the skids for LeBron James playing with his son in the NBA, they’ll select Williams, who was the high school teammate of Bronny at Sierra Canyon. Williams actually makes sense for L.A. as a young, athletic playmaker with defensive upside.


Interesting point about us drafting Ziaire. It kinda makes sense to me. We’ve been on a Klutch hoarding spree since Lebron with AD, KCP, Trez, THT, etc. Drafting someone with connection to Lebron’s son. So this pick would be consistent with how the Lakers have been operating these last few years. He’s also a wing player which is a big need for us.

Any thoughts on him?


I think he gets drafted at least 5 picks higher.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:47 pm    Post subject:

Megaton wrote:
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/2021-nba-mock-draft-round-1-pick-projections-all-30-teams

Quote:
22: Lakers select:
Ziaire Williams
Age: 19
Measurables: 6-foot-8, 185 pounds
If the Lakers want to grease the skids for LeBron James playing with his son in the NBA, they’ll select Williams, who was the high school teammate of Bronny at Sierra Canyon. Williams actually makes sense for L.A. as a young, athletic playmaker with defensive upside.


Interesting point about us drafting Ziaire. It kinda makes sense to me. We’ve been on a Klutch hoarding spree since Lebron with AD, KCP, Trez, THT, etc. Drafting someone with connection to Lebron’s son. So this pick would be consistent with how the Lakers have been operating these last few years. He’s also a wing player which is a big need for us.

Any thoughts on him?

He's the kind of guy who's going to kill it in workouts and won't be available at #22, imo

But going with the hypothetical, I think he'd be a solid developmental prospect with a very low floor and a higher ceiling than you'll find at pick #22 most years. His make or break skill is his pull-up shooting, which didn't translate often during his 20 college games. Was he in a shooting slump during a pandemic in which he may have contracted COVID? Or is he a guy with pretty form and no accuracy?

He's super skinny and not explosive in traffic (though that could be improved with added strength) so he struggled to finish among the trees and he didn't get to the rim or line as much as you'd like to see from a guy with his physical tools. He was usually active on the defensive glass and demonstrated physicality there belying his thin frame and he's active with good length (7'0 wingspan?) on defense, though his skinniness could hinder his upside as a defender in the pros. As a passer, I think he's actually a pretty quick processor, but his touch is weirdly off - he'll look a guy open and then miss his shooting pocket or rifle a pass that needs more touch, etc.

Overall: 6'8 wings with length and the kind of volume OtD shot creation ZW flashes have clear star potential. Even if he realizes his shooting upside, his skinny frame and athletic limitations as a downhill scorer likely keep him from reaching his platonic ideal in PG-13. Nonetheless, if he develops well, a 6'8 wing who can get buckets, is active on defense, and not too sloppy as a decision-maker/ ball handler would be a great addition for the Lakers. I'm skeptical Ziaire Williams is that kind of shooter, but at #22 it'd definitely be worth the shot.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:53 pm    Post subject:

Man, KCP was a much better prospect than Bouknight.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:54 pm    Post subject:

^He's still not comfortable with that finger-point release on different grips of the basketball.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:33 pm    Post subject:

Thanks BVH, my man.
so many 'iffy' facets/areas of Ziaire's game. Not just his jumper, but his handle is loose, he often looses it and follows it (sometimes still hits a jumper right after - and that's a good sign). He struggles navigating screens on defense because he's so skinny.
Will he truly get the opportunity to show his on-ball potential or will he be stuck in a more traditional 3&D role ; and kinda not be so impactful because he'll shoot 33% his first couple years in the league?
I don't really know where to place him - is he a pure upside guy with mostly but iffy traits; or is some of his offensive value more cemented...
What goes along with the loose handle - is the ball slowing him down and slowing his reading process down.. so he has a long ways to go to be a good on-ball option ---- not a top option of course but even like #2.5
The jumper form is fine, it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up a solid shooter..but it's still up in the air
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:05 pm    Post subject:

^He's like a poor man's BI to me, without the outlier finishing abilities. I don't feel great about him, one way or the other tbh.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:15 pm    Post subject:

Just watched an Ignite game.

I really don't know who to rank higher - Suggs or Green.
Green is showing me all the superstar SG Booker-ish skills in their embryonic stages, that I want to see.
His athleticism is really really tangibly helping his game. Even his jab-steps in triple threat position shake guys, it's a super twitchy quick jab-step, and he gains an advantage off of it ----- https://youtu.be/NrIsUh7Y3K0 here is an NBA stregnth/performance trainer who says Green's closest athletic comp is Michael Jordan. (This trainer is a biomechanics expert - he's a main trainer for Adidas guys like Harden and Rose)
i did not expect to see the best jab-step in the NBA since Kobe, from Jalen Green. His game-style does remind me of D.Booker, as he comes off curls and DHO's to shoot, even in the mid-range... kind of prototype SG stuff. If his jumper was as pure as Booker's, Green would be in the #1 convo for me. MikeLG properly pointed out Green's loading time on his jumper. It doesn't happen all the time - doesn't happen when he just rises and elevates coming off curl action. But out at the 3pt line on his most common mechanics, there is load time.. he can def quicken this up.. these are 18 year old problems.. everyone's jumper takes leaps mechanic wise by their 4th season......

Suggs on the other hand. I feel like he's a more sure-thing. Green reminds me of the really young and raw future superstar like Kobe was when he was 17. Green is showing a lot of moves combined with superstar athleticism; I know these moves will surely develop.
Suggs; I feel like he's guaranteed to be a slightly better Lowry . Green I guess has a bigger chance to be not quite that good. I love PGs who can pass into every nook and cranny - Suggs can do that, and he's going to control the pace in the halfcourt - he can dart through the lane for an athletic drive, or he can play the prototype set-up PG roll... and he's a dog and the heart of the team.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject:

I take Suggs because he's actually the better ball handler, passer, and decision maker. Green is the better athlete, but too many teams rely on outlier development for their project players that don't always pan out.

Also helps Suggs played Football, so I trust his motor, ability to draw contact more.

Green is absolutely lost defensively.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:21 pm    Post subject:

https://youtu.be/NbujyPF5YOA?t=2443 look at this jab-step ya'll.. this is Kobe level effectiveness of a jab-step, so twitchy.
So now he has triple-threat position scoring potential off of jabs - on top of the ball handling he shows . Kid is going to have a lot of ways to score, because his athleticism really is functional and his skill is paired with it nicely.
https://youtu.be/NbujyPF5YOA?t=2758 another big advantage creating jab-step. First one was crazier though, as he was jabbing in the non traditional direction.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject:

Color me skeptical of the Booker/LaVine/Beal tier of one-way scoring guards as centerpieces on championship teams. I think all of them have been miscast as primary options and CP3 has been key to unlocking a Suns team that looks like a perennial 2nd round exit once Paul falls off or retires.

Green's in their tier and not in Kobe's. KB8 was bigger - taller, heavier frame, longer wingspan - and much more skilled as a ball handler and passer coming into the league (a year younger than Green). He also possessed a pathological work ethic which was key in making him one of the most skilled scorers the league has ever seen as he slowed down athletically.

I don't see Suggs as a primary either and I have him and Green in a tier together. Suggs does a lot of good stuff without having to have the ball in his hands and has high level floor processing ability and passing touch I'd be shocked to ever see from Green. He lacks that crazy first step, though, and doesn't have the PG handle to compensate. It depends on what your team has and needs - the danger with Green is a team miscasting him as a primary, but bucket getters matter for teams devoid of young scorers like Detroit while Minnesota could use a high level connector in Suggs who has an outside shot of developing into a PG (sorry, DLo).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:09 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Color me skeptical of the Booker/LaVine/Beal tier of one-way scoring guards as centerpieces on championship teams. I think all of them have been miscast as primary options and CP3 has been key to unlocking a Suns team that looks like a perennial 2nd round exit once Paul falls off or retires.

Green's in their tier and not in Kobe's. KB8 was bigger - taller, heavier frame, longer wingspan - and much more skilled as a ball handler and passer coming into the league (a year younger than Green). He also possessed a pathological work ethic which was key in making him one of the most skilled scorers the league has ever seen as he slowed down athletically.

I don't see Suggs as a primary either and I have him and Green in a tier together. Suggs does a lot of good stuff without having to have the ball in his hands and has high level floor processing ability and passing touch I'd be shocked to ever see from Green. He lacks that crazy first step, though, and doesn't have the PG handle to compensate. It depends on what your team has and needs - the danger with Green is a team miscasting him as a primary, but bucket getters matter for teams devoid of young scorers like Detroit while Minnesota could use a high level connector in Suggs who has an outside shot of developing into a PG (sorry, DLo).


interesting. yea I don't think Green will ever approach Kobe offensively and of course not defensively. I compared them because Green is displaying the embryonic stage skill that reminds of what star offensive players show in high shcool and their freshman years of college.. Green is displaying all of that - his scoring repertoire is layered.. you see the triple threat position jabs that have a high ceiling. you see the handle that is effective in 2 modern ways for a SG - the Devin Booker way of getting into your jumper - where it's 2 dribble pull-ups, where he's just hunting a spot(btw this is from Kobe) and rises. He's shifty enough to create space for his jumper when he does more pronounced moves.

And Green's handle is also effective for his age and star SG position in terms of creating space to get downhill - or even split double teams. he's far ahead of Booker and probably Beal(although i didn't watch much Florida Beal) he needed time in the league to develop into an on-ball star. Booker didn't get on-ball reps on UK but I still see more skill off the dribble and twitch off the dribble from Green.. I like his handle.

I like that an 18 year old has good ways to "get to his spots and rise", has an amazing jab step that creates separation, and I like his other downhill moves too - this is a good amount of polish. it's the opposite of what Wiggins showed at Kansas - one move one direction iffy shooter.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:32 pm    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Color me skeptical of the Booker/LaVine/Beal tier of one-way scoring guards as centerpieces on championship teams. I think all of them have been miscast as primary options and CP3 has been key to unlocking a Suns team that looks like a perennial 2nd round exit once Paul falls off or retires.

Green's in their tier and not in Kobe's. KB8 was bigger - taller, heavier frame, longer wingspan - and much more skilled as a ball handler and passer coming into the league (a year younger than Green). He also possessed a pathological work ethic which was key in making him one of the most skilled scorers the league has ever seen as he slowed down athletically.

I don't see Suggs as a primary either and I have him and Green in a tier together. Suggs does a lot of good stuff without having to have the ball in his hands and has high level floor processing ability and passing touch I'd be shocked to ever see from Green. He lacks that crazy first step, though, and doesn't have the PG handle to compensate. It depends on what your team has and needs - the danger with Green is a team miscasting him as a primary, but bucket getters matter for teams devoid of young scorers like Detroit while Minnesota could use a high level connector in Suggs who has an outside shot of developing into a PG (sorry, DLo).


interesting. yea I don't think Green will ever approach Kobe offensively and of course not defensively. I compared them because Green is displaying the embryonic stage skill that reminds of what star offensive players show in high shcool and their freshman years of college.. Green is displaying all of that - his scoring repertoire is layered.. you see the triple threat position jabs that have a high ceiling. you see the handle that is effective in 2 modern ways for a SG - the Devin Booker way of getting into your jumper - where it's 2 dribble pull-ups, where he's just hunting a spot(btw this is from Kobe) and rises. He's shifty enough to create space for his jumper when he does more pronounced moves.

And Green's handle is also effective for his age and star SG position in terms of creating space to get downhill - or even split double teams. he's far ahead of Booker and probably Beal(although i didn't watch much Florida Beal) he needed time in the league to develop into an on-ball star. Booker didn't get on-ball reps on UK but I still see more skill off the dribble and twitch off the dribble from Green.. I like his handle.

I like that an 18 year old has good ways to "get to his spots and rise", has an amazing jab step that creates separation, and I like his other downhill moves too - this is a good amount of polish. it's the opposite of what Wiggins showed at Kansas - one move one direction iffy shooter.

He's a really talented prospect in what I think will be a good, top heavy draft. I think he definitely has 25+ PPG upside and multiple All-Star game appearances in him if he hits (and I'm pretty confident he'll hit).

I guess I should be more excited about him, but I've gotten to be an old man about basketball to where I'm more impressed with Cade Cunningham setting back screens as an unselfish, well-rounded star than Green's two dribble pull-up Js and sweet transition dunks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:43 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Color me skeptical of the Booker/LaVine/Beal tier of one-way scoring guards as centerpieces on championship teams. I think all of them have been miscast as primary options and CP3 has been key to unlocking a Suns team that looks like a perennial 2nd round exit once Paul falls off or retires.

Green's in their tier and not in Kobe's. KB8 was bigger - taller, heavier frame, longer wingspan - and much more skilled as a ball handler and passer coming into the league (a year younger than Green). He also possessed a pathological work ethic which was key in making him one of the most skilled scorers the league has ever seen as he slowed down athletically.

I don't see Suggs as a primary either and I have him and Green in a tier together. Suggs does a lot of good stuff without having to have the ball in his hands and has high level floor processing ability and passing touch I'd be shocked to ever see from Green. He lacks that crazy first step, though, and doesn't have the PG handle to compensate. It depends on what your team has and needs - the danger with Green is a team miscasting him as a primary, but bucket getters matter for teams devoid of young scorers like Detroit while Minnesota could use a high level connector in Suggs who has an outside shot of developing into a PG (sorry, DLo).


interesting. yea I don't think Green will ever approach Kobe offensively and of course not defensively. I compared them because Green is displaying the embryonic stage skill that reminds of what star offensive players show in high shcool and their freshman years of college.. Green is displaying all of that - his scoring repertoire is layered.. you see the triple threat position jabs that have a high ceiling. you see the handle that is effective in 2 modern ways for a SG - the Devin Booker way of getting into your jumper - where it's 2 dribble pull-ups, where he's just hunting a spot(btw this is from Kobe) and rises. He's shifty enough to create space for his jumper when he does more pronounced moves.

And Green's handle is also effective for his age and star SG position in terms of creating space to get downhill - or even split double teams. he's far ahead of Booker and probably Beal(although i didn't watch much Florida Beal) he needed time in the league to develop into an on-ball star. Booker didn't get on-ball reps on UK but I still see more skill off the dribble and twitch off the dribble from Green.. I like his handle.

I like that an 18 year old has good ways to "get to his spots and rise", has an amazing jab step that creates separation, and I like his other downhill moves too - this is a good amount of polish. it's the opposite of what Wiggins showed at Kansas - one move one direction iffy shooter.

He's a really talented prospect in what I think will be a good, top heavy draft. I think he definitely has 25+ PPG upside and multiple All-Star game appearances in him if he hits (and I'm pretty confident he'll hit).

I guess I should be more excited about him, but I've gotten to be an old man about basketball to where I'm more impressed with Cade Cunningham setting back screens as an unselfish, well-rounded star than Green's two dribble pull-up Js and sweet transition dunks.


I feel you on that man.. well-rounded players are exciting to watch - they're always impacting something. Even high level role players who check a lot of boxes are fun to scout.

Green for me is fun because it's not every year that you see elite athleticism translate functionally on offensive moves.......... and you usually see it with fast PGs! not SGs who have a super twitchy jab-step or float in the air on Js - this is what we saw from Kobe's generation - amazing athlete wings who are skilled. Harden, Kawhi, Beal, George, Booker - these guys don't have the small guard twitch that Kobe and Green have.. Even Lavine isn't fast-twitch with the ball on his hands..

I'm stuck on seeing Suggs as an on-ball PG. maybe I haven't scouted him enough. In today's modern game where even SGs/SFs become lead-handlers, I think Suggs is a lead handler
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:47 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Color me skeptical of the Booker/LaVine/Beal tier of one-way scoring guards as centerpieces on championship teams. I think all of them have been miscast as primary options and CP3 has been key to unlocking a Suns team that looks like a perennial 2nd round exit once Paul falls off or retires.

Green's in their tier and not in Kobe's. KB8 was bigger - taller, heavier frame, longer wingspan - and much more skilled as a ball handler and passer coming into the league (a year younger than Green). He also possessed a pathological work ethic which was key in making him one of the most skilled scorers the league has ever seen as he slowed down athletically.

I don't see Suggs as a primary either and I have him and Green in a tier together. Suggs does a lot of good stuff without having to have the ball in his hands and has high level floor processing ability and passing touch I'd be shocked to ever see from Green. He lacks that crazy first step, though, and doesn't have the PG handle to compensate. It depends on what your team has and needs - the danger with Green is a team miscasting him as a primary, but bucket getters matter for teams devoid of young scorers like Detroit while Minnesota could use a high level connector in Suggs who has an outside shot of developing into a PG (sorry, DLo).


Agreed about Booker, LaVine, Beal. They all play like wing forwards than classic SGs and don't have the frames to dominate at the rim. Instead they're all trying to compensate with 3pt range/gravity.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:48 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
I'm stuck on seeing Suggs as an on-ball PG.


Picture him in Jamal Murray's spot.
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Mark10 45
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:02 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
I'm stuck on seeing Suggs as an on-ball PG.


Picture him in Jamal Murray's spot.


ah, ok. that'd be cool.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:23 pm    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Color me skeptical of the Booker/LaVine/Beal tier of one-way scoring guards as centerpieces on championship teams. I think all of them have been miscast as primary options and CP3 has been key to unlocking a Suns team that looks like a perennial 2nd round exit once Paul falls off or retires.

Green's in their tier and not in Kobe's. KB8 was bigger - taller, heavier frame, longer wingspan - and much more skilled as a ball handler and passer coming into the league (a year younger than Green). He also possessed a pathological work ethic which was key in making him one of the most skilled scorers the league has ever seen as he slowed down athletically.

I don't see Suggs as a primary either and I have him and Green in a tier together. Suggs does a lot of good stuff without having to have the ball in his hands and has high level floor processing ability and passing touch I'd be shocked to ever see from Green. He lacks that crazy first step, though, and doesn't have the PG handle to compensate. It depends on what your team has and needs - the danger with Green is a team miscasting him as a primary, but bucket getters matter for teams devoid of young scorers like Detroit while Minnesota could use a high level connector in Suggs who has an outside shot of developing into a PG (sorry, DLo).


interesting. yea I don't think Green will ever approach Kobe offensively and of course not defensively. I compared them because Green is displaying the embryonic stage skill that reminds of what star offensive players show in high shcool and their freshman years of college.. Green is displaying all of that - his scoring repertoire is layered.. you see the triple threat position jabs that have a high ceiling. you see the handle that is effective in 2 modern ways for a SG - the Devin Booker way of getting into your jumper - where it's 2 dribble pull-ups, where he's just hunting a spot(btw this is from Kobe) and rises. He's shifty enough to create space for his jumper when he does more pronounced moves.

And Green's handle is also effective for his age and star SG position in terms of creating space to get downhill - or even split double teams. he's far ahead of Booker and probably Beal(although i didn't watch much Florida Beal) he needed time in the league to develop into an on-ball star. Booker didn't get on-ball reps on UK but I still see more skill off the dribble and twitch off the dribble from Green.. I like his handle.

I like that an 18 year old has good ways to "get to his spots and rise", has an amazing jab step that creates separation, and I like his other downhill moves too - this is a good amount of polish. it's the opposite of what Wiggins showed at Kansas - one move one direction iffy shooter.

He's a really talented prospect in what I think will be a good, top heavy draft. I think he definitely has 25+ PPG upside and multiple All-Star game appearances in him if he hits (and I'm pretty confident he'll hit).

I guess I should be more excited about him, but I've gotten to be an old man about basketball to where I'm more impressed with Cade Cunningham setting back screens as an unselfish, well-rounded star than Green's two dribble pull-up Js and sweet transition dunks.


I feel you on that man.. well-rounded players are exciting to watch - they're always impacting something. Even high level role players who check a lot of boxes are fun to scout.

Green for me is fun because it's not every year that you see elite athleticism translate functionally on offensive moves.......... and you usually see it with fast PGs! not SGs who have a super twitchy jab-step or float in the air on Js - this is what we saw from Kobe's generation - amazing athlete wings who are skilled. Harden, Kawhi, Beal, George, Booker - these guys don't have the small guard twitch that Kobe and Green have.. Even Lavine isn't fast-twitch with the ball on his hands..

I'm stuck on seeing Suggs as an on-ball PG. maybe I haven't scouted him enough. In today's modern game where even SGs/SFs become lead-handlers, I think Suggs is a lead handler

Oh definitely, that kid is a 1% NBA athlete the minute he steps on the court. I was lamenting to Mike a couple pages back about how I took Gumby bodied hyper athletic wings like Kobe and TMac for granted back in the day because they were drafted in back to back seasons.

The funny thing is outside of young LaVine (when he was unfortunately afraid of contact) and maybe Ja Morant the guys who rival Green as athletes are jumbo sized dudes in Anthony Edwards and Zion. Zion's his own kind of freak - Shaq on offense for the modern era - but what do you think of Green vis-a-vis Edwards?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:37 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Color me skeptical of the Booker/LaVine/Beal tier of one-way scoring guards as centerpieces on championship teams. I think all of them have been miscast as primary options and CP3 has been key to unlocking a Suns team that looks like a perennial 2nd round exit once Paul falls off or retires.

Green's in their tier and not in Kobe's. KB8 was bigger - taller, heavier frame, longer wingspan - and much more skilled as a ball handler and passer coming into the league (a year younger than Green). He also possessed a pathological work ethic which was key in making him one of the most skilled scorers the league has ever seen as he slowed down athletically.

I don't see Suggs as a primary either and I have him and Green in a tier together. Suggs does a lot of good stuff without having to have the ball in his hands and has high level floor processing ability and passing touch I'd be shocked to ever see from Green. He lacks that crazy first step, though, and doesn't have the PG handle to compensate. It depends on what your team has and needs - the danger with Green is a team miscasting him as a primary, but bucket getters matter for teams devoid of young scorers like Detroit while Minnesota could use a high level connector in Suggs who has an outside shot of developing into a PG (sorry, DLo).


interesting. yea I don't think Green will ever approach Kobe offensively and of course not defensively. I compared them because Green is displaying the embryonic stage skill that reminds of what star offensive players show in high shcool and their freshman years of college.. Green is displaying all of that - his scoring repertoire is layered.. you see the triple threat position jabs that have a high ceiling. you see the handle that is effective in 2 modern ways for a SG - the Devin Booker way of getting into your jumper - where it's 2 dribble pull-ups, where he's just hunting a spot(btw this is from Kobe) and rises. He's shifty enough to create space for his jumper when he does more pronounced moves.

And Green's handle is also effective for his age and star SG position in terms of creating space to get downhill - or even split double teams. he's far ahead of Booker and probably Beal(although i didn't watch much Florida Beal) he needed time in the league to develop into an on-ball star. Booker didn't get on-ball reps on UK but I still see more skill off the dribble and twitch off the dribble from Green.. I like his handle.

I like that an 18 year old has good ways to "get to his spots and rise", has an amazing jab step that creates separation, and I like his other downhill moves too - this is a good amount of polish. it's the opposite of what Wiggins showed at Kansas - one move one direction iffy shooter.

He's a really talented prospect in what I think will be a good, top heavy draft. I think he definitely has 25+ PPG upside and multiple All-Star game appearances in him if he hits (and I'm pretty confident he'll hit).

I guess I should be more excited about him, but I've gotten to be an old man about basketball to where I'm more impressed with Cade Cunningham setting back screens as an unselfish, well-rounded star than Green's two dribble pull-up Js and sweet transition dunks.


I feel you on that man.. well-rounded players are exciting to watch - they're always impacting something. Even high level role players who check a lot of boxes are fun to scout.

Green for me is fun because it's not every year that you see elite athleticism translate functionally on offensive moves.......... and you usually see it with fast PGs! not SGs who have a super twitchy jab-step or float in the air on Js - this is what we saw from Kobe's generation - amazing athlete wings who are skilled. Harden, Kawhi, Beal, George, Booker - these guys don't have the small guard twitch that Kobe and Green have.. Even Lavine isn't fast-twitch with the ball on his hands..

I'm stuck on seeing Suggs as an on-ball PG. maybe I haven't scouted him enough. In today's modern game where even SGs/SFs become lead-handlers, I think Suggs is a lead handler

Oh definitely, that kid is a 1% NBA athlete the minute he steps on the court. I was lamenting to Mike a couple pages back about how I took Gumby bodied hyper athletic wings like Kobe and TMac for granted back in the day because they were drafted in back to back seasons.

The funny thing is outside of young LaVine (when he was unfortunately afraid of contact) and maybe Ja Morant the guys who rival Green as athletes are jumbo sized dudes in Anthony Edwards and Zion. Zion's his own kind of freak - Shaq on offense for the modern era - but what do you think of Green vis-a-vis Edwards?


that's right.
Edwards to me in the thick frame - it's hard to see athletic twinning between he and Kobe/MJ. Edwards is more force-explosiveness, like a running back hitting a hole; and a thick FB player leaping upwards. Kobe, MJ, Tmac - you put it right they're more gumby athletes - just really unique, you don't see it on the football field other than Moss (and I say that because I generally think FB players are the best athletes). but Kobe/MJ/Tmac/Green have this lankiness to them combined with twitch.. they also have longer strides than an Edwards - they're gazelles.

Game-wise, Green is more of a natural guard than Edwards. Although Edwards can handle well - some of his jumpshots are just bail-outs because he doesn't know what else to do on the play, and he's like programmed with confidence to just pull-it...and the attempts look forced.
we'll see if the jumper progresses linearly or like Kuzma.
Green has a more natural flow of knowing what to do with the ball in the prototype SG way - the 2 dribble pull-ups look natural, less forced, they look like the right ball-hog shots haha. he creates solid space on them - Edwards often doesn't. I didn't expect Edwards to be such a shot maker for these reasons combined with an awkward stroke - Green on the other hand fits the mold perfectly ---- I see young Booker stuff and more twitch creating.
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