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activeverb
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:45 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
activeverb wrote:
1. I question the DS opinion. I don't love the guy, but he was a 19 ppg starter in Atlanta before he was traded to OKC, and he only became a reserve because Westbrook was in front of him. I don't think he's seen around the league as a career backup/6th man. Given our relative lack of backcourt talent, I think the Lakers always intended for him to start.


Coming into this season he came off the bench 65% of the games he played.
He was a consistent starter 2 out of the 7 seasons he was in the league. The combined team record those 2 seasons was 67-97.

I think he's not seen as a starter on a championship team around the league. A starter on a sub .500 team? Sure.


The specifics are a little more nuanced.

Like a lot of players, he was a backup for the first three years of his career. Then he became a starter for two years. Then he was traded to a team with an MVP at his position so he became a 6th man. He was then traded to us and became a starter again. That's an unusual pattern, so the 65% figure is a little deceptive.

His first year as a starter the Hawks were 43-29. They then cleared house, getting rid of most of their top guys except DS, and plummeted to 24-58. I am not a big fan of his but I wouldn't put that decline on him. He was just caught in a rebuild with a bunch of crappy teammates.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:58 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
kikanga wrote:
activeverb wrote:
1. I question the DS opinion. I don't love the guy, but he was a 19 ppg starter in Atlanta before he was traded to OKC, and he only became a reserve because Westbrook was in front of him. I don't think he's seen around the league as a career backup/6th man. Given our relative lack of backcourt talent, I think the Lakers always intended for him to start.


Coming into this season he came off the bench 65% of the games he played.
He was a consistent starter 2 out of the 7 seasons he was in the league. The combined team record those 2 seasons was 67-97.

I think he's not seen as a starter on a championship team around the league. A starter on a sub .500 team? Sure.


The specifics are a little more nuanced.

Like a lot of players, he was a backup for the first three years of his career. Then he became a starter for two years. Then he was traded to a team with an MVP at his position so he became a 6th man. He was then traded to us and became a starter again. That's an unusual pattern, so the 65% figure is a little deceptive.

His first year as a starter the Hawks were 43-29. They then cleared house, getting rid of most of their top guys except DS, and plummeted to 24-58. I am not a big fan of his but I wouldn't put that decline on him. He was just caught in a rebuild with a bunch of crappy teammates.


Only other teams in our conference I could see him starting on are HOU, OKC, and maybe NOP. And maybe not even them after this draft.

Off the bench, he's arguably the best bench player in a given playoffs. Starting though. He's bottom rung among playoff PG starters. And a bad fit alongside playoff Bron on top of that.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:02 pm    Post subject:

Getting injured was a big mistake. Probably shouldn't have done that.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:05 pm    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
1. I question the DS opinion. I don't love the guy, but he was a 19 ppg starter in Atlanta before he was traded to OKC, and he only became a reserve because Westbrook was in front of him. I don't think he's seen around the league as a career backup/6th man. Given our relative lack of backcourt talent, I think the Lakers always intended for him to start.


Yes, I don't know where people got the idea that Schroder was going to come off the bench. We weren't going to start Caruso, THT, or Matthews.


Wes Matthews started for the Bucks in 2019, had good stats - both offensive and defensive, averaged just as many minutes for the Bucks as Green did for the Lakers (roughly 24) and is just a year older than Green. It wouldn't have been that much of a stretch to have started him.
Oh I know it wouldn't have been acceptable to DS, sure.


Matthews is a 2/3. He's not going to play the 1. Casey P. took Green's spot at the 2. This may not matter much on offense because Lebron ran the show, but it does matter on defense. I'm not sure why anyone would have thought that our starting backcourt was going to be Matthews and Casey P.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:06 pm    Post subject:

Theseus wrote:
Getting injured was a big mistake. Probably shouldn't have done that.
I hope this is a lesson learned...
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ThePageDude
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:50 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
1. I question the DS opinion. I don't love the guy, but he was a 19 ppg starter in Atlanta before he was traded to OKC, and he only became a reserve because Westbrook was in front of him. I don't think he's seen around the league as a career backup/6th man. Given our relative lack of backcourt talent, I think the Lakers always intended for him to start.


Yes, I don't know where people got the idea that Schroder was going to come off the bench. We weren't going to start Caruso, THT, or Matthews.


Wes Matthews started for the Bucks in 2019, had good stats - both offensive and defensive, averaged just as many minutes for the Bucks as Green did for the Lakers (roughly 24) and is just a year older than Green. It wouldn't have been that much of a stretch to have started him.
Oh I know it wouldn't have been acceptable to DS, sure.


Matthews is a 2/3. He's not going to play the 1. Casey P. took Green's spot at the 2. This may not matter much on offense because Lebron ran the show, but it does matter on defense. I'm not sure why anyone would have thought that our starting backcourt was going to be Matthews and Casey P.


Because it was KCP/Green in 2019. It's a straight Green to Matthews swap with Bron playing PG just as in 2019.


Last edited by ThePageDude on Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:51 pm    Post subject:

Making promises to unproven players joining a championship winning team.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Because it was KCP/Green in 2019. It's a straight Green to Matthews swap with Bron playing PG just as in 2019.


It was Bradley/Green in 2019. Casey P. became a starter only when Bradley opted out of the bubble. Rondo was out with an injury and then playing back into shape. Even then, Rondo and Caruso averaged over 48 minutes combined. Lebron ran the point on offense, but he is not a point guard and did not defend the opposing 1. Pelinka constructed both rosters with someone to play the 1 (Bradley and Schroder), whether or not you want to call it the “point guard” position.

In any event, this is how Vogel set his starting lineups and rotations. I see an alternative narrative that Schroder was the starter because he wanted to be the starter. That doesn’t make sense if you think it through. I’m sure that Harrell and Matthews wanted to start, too. Vogel was always going to start a guard who was suited to play the 1.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:44 pm    Post subject:

Some folks getting confused with the concept of positionless basketball...I blame D’antoni.

Bron didn’t guard guards huh?

Men lie, women lie, numbers & tape don’t.

Spent 213 game time minutes guarding opposing guards.
https://go.nba.com/in2i

First few minutes of this video clip have him guarding guards.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MAMOL7QNSv4

Here’s a gawd damn pic of Bron guarding his fellow point gawd.
Pointgawd vs pointgawd

Bron is a stud cause he can guard 1-5!

#GetFamiliar
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:00 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
Because it was KCP/Green in 2019. It's a straight Green to Matthews swap with Bron playing PG just as in 2019.


It was Bradley/Green in 2019. Casey P. became a starter only when Bradley opted out of the bubble. Rondo was out with an injury and then playing back into shape. Even then, Rondo and Caruso averaged over 48 minutes combined. Lebron ran the point on offense, but he is not a point guard and did not defend the opposing 1. Pelinka constructed both rosters with someone to play the 1 (Bradley and Schroder), whether or not you want to call it the “point guard” position.

In any event, this is how Vogel set his starting lineups and rotations. I see an alternative narrative that Schroder was the starter because he wanted to be the starter. That doesn’t make sense if you think it through. I’m sure that Harrell and Matthews wanted to start, too. Vogel was always going to start a guard who was suited to play the 1.


Sure, the premise/desire may well have been to start a playmaker in the mold of Rondo/Irving with Lebron. But all I'm trying to say is:
Since a Lebron + Green + KCP triad won the championship with Rondo as backup
It's not unreasonable to think that a Lebron + Wes + KCP triad could work with Schroeder as playmaker filling the Rondo-off-the-bench role. Why not give the same basic recipe another shot?
(I know why not - ego/chemistry need to be managed too)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:12 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
roger_federer wrote:
Not hiring a Good GM


He was the GM for the 2019-20 season. Does he get credit for putting that team together?


2019 roster was not good either though they have played as a EAM. we got extremely lucky.

we played Exhausted Portland and Denver. Then injured HEAT and it took 6 games to beat them
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:35 pm    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
Because it was KCP/Green in 2019. It's a straight Green to Matthews swap with Bron playing PG just as in 2019.


It was Bradley/Green in 2019. Casey P. became a starter only when Bradley opted out of the bubble. Rondo was out with an injury and then playing back into shape. Even then, Rondo and Caruso averaged over 48 minutes combined. Lebron ran the point on offense, but he is not a point guard and did not defend the opposing 1. Pelinka constructed both rosters with someone to play the 1 (Bradley and Schroder), whether or not you want to call it the “point guard” position.

In any event, this is how Vogel set his starting lineups and rotations. I see an alternative narrative that Schroder was the starter because he wanted to be the starter. That doesn’t make sense if you think it through. I’m sure that Harrell and Matthews wanted to start, too. Vogel was always going to start a guard who was suited to play the 1.


Sure, the premise/desire may well have been to start a playmaker in the mold of Rondo/Irving with Lebron. But all I'm trying to say is:
Since a Lebron + Green + KCP triad won the championship with Rondo as backup
It's not unreasonable to think that a Lebron + Wes + KCP triad could work with Schroeder as playmaker filling the Rondo-off-the-bench role. Why not give the same basic recipe another shot?
(I know why not - ego/chemistry need to be managed too)


Fair enough. We could have done that. All I've been doing is explaining why it seemed obvious to me that we weren't going to do that. I'm surprised that some of you thought otherwise, but clearly you did.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:26 pm    Post subject:

roger_federer wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
roger_federer wrote:
Not hiring a Good GM


He was the GM for the 2019-20 season. Does he get credit for putting that team together?


2019 roster was not good either though they have played as a EAM. we got extremely lucky.

we played Exhausted Portland and Denver. Then injured HEAT and it took 6 games to beat them


I have no idea whether Rob is a good GM or not. But I also don't agree with philosophy "he he gets no credit for the good, and all the blame for the bad." If that's going to be your attitude coming in, you've preordained that everyone is a failure.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:36 pm    Post subject:

Letting AD play in game 4..wish that didn’t happen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:39 pm    Post subject:

Lakesh0wtime wrote:
Letting AD play in game 4..wish that didn’t happen


75% of fans would have never let him live it down if he didn't play. He still won't shake the soft label(even though he plays through an injury a week) but if he wouldn't have played - fans never would have forgotten us getting eliminated because he couldn't show up
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:41 pm    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
Lakesh0wtime wrote:
Letting AD play in game 4..wish that didn’t happen


75% of fans would have never let him live it down if he didn't play. He still won't shake the soft label(even though he plays through an injury a week) but if he wouldn't have played - fans never would have forgotten us getting eliminated because he couldn't show up


Lol screw the fans. He had a bum knee and was a GTD. Ended up causing the groin injury. Sit game 4 and go to Phoenix tied 2-2 with a healthy AD.

Much better than what happened
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:48 pm    Post subject:

Lakesh0wtime wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
Lakesh0wtime wrote:
Letting AD play in game 4..wish that didn’t happen


75% of fans would have never let him live it down if he didn't play. He still won't shake the soft label(even though he plays through an injury a week) but if he wouldn't have played - fans never would have forgotten us getting eliminated because he couldn't show up


Lol screw the fans. He had a bum knee and was a GTD. Ended up causing the groin injury. Sit game 4 and go to Phoenix tied 2-2 with a healthy AD.

Much better than what happened


As a player you hear all that stuff.. Kobe would have played. And the medical staff's decision - AD never gets a serious injury - so they let him play with the season on the line.. because he never tears an ACL or anything... the staff's job is to risk potentiality for making an injury worse; that's the bar for injury the playoffs..
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:58 pm    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
Lakesh0wtime wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
Lakesh0wtime wrote:
Letting AD play in game 4..wish that didn’t happen


75% of fans would have never let him live it down if he didn't play. He still won't shake the soft label(even though he plays through an injury a week) but if he wouldn't have played - fans never would have forgotten us getting eliminated because he couldn't show up


Lol screw the fans. He had a bum knee and was a GTD. Ended up causing the groin injury. Sit game 4 and go to Phoenix tied 2-2 with a healthy AD.

Much better than what happened


As a player you hear all that stuff.. Kobe would have played. And the medical staff's decision - AD never gets a serious injury - so they let him play with the season on the line.. because he never tears an ACL or anything... the staff's job is to risk potentiality for making an injury worse; that's the bar for injury the playoffs..


Season wasn’t on the line we were up 2-1.

Anyways not trying to go too in depth into the mind of an athlete. Just saying wish they held him out.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:44 am    Post subject:

It's a good thing to constructively analyze the roster and the bottom line results of what happened this season.

NBA title teams over the years at it's deep core has revolved around stars with complimentary role players. Realistically history has shown us you can't win a title if one of your top 2 players goes down. It's too much to overcome. Golden State lost to Toronto after KD went down, some posters last round said look at Jokic with Murray out. Joker was phenomenal and he can't do anymore than 32-20-10 last night and is about to get swept out of round 2. Brooklyn may end up being the exception this year but part of that is the East, 3 stars that are top flight create their own shot guys in an offensive era, and they're still a good chance they will lose in the finals or sometime before if Harden is still out.

Yes Dwight & Javalle had better rim protection that Gasol/Harrell. Put Green back instead of Dennis and the team would have no one would could initiate offense when Bron/AD were hurt earlier.

Once AD went down, keeping it real, the title hopes were gone. Rondo, Dwight and Javalle weren't going to save this season without AD. Rob has shown he can build a championship roster. My biggest concern is the health of an aging superstar Bron and then AD who by the eye test concerns all of us with his durability. He said publicly he signed a 5 year Max concerned about his health where a 1+1 would had potential to have more long term. That tells us a lot right there.

I often teach my students that patients know their body better than the doctor.
There's a great philosophy that goes: Listen to the patient, they will tell you the diagnosis. We had to sign AD last offseason. He's in the prime of his career, when healthy a true unicorn, we just came off a title, and is Bron's buddy and running mate. His health is going to decide where our team goes the next few years. My fingers are crossed tightly.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:54 am    Post subject:

shoulder doc wrote:
Brooklyn may end up being the exception this year but part of that is the East, 3 stars that are top flight create their own shot guys in an offensive era, and they're still a good chance they will lose in the finals or sometime before if Harden is still out.


Yes, the Nets could be the proverbial unicorn. They got to this point even though they had all three superstars at the same time for only a small number of games. (I don't know the number off the top of my head, but I'm sure someone in the media has counted it up.) If the Nets win it all, I guess the takeaway will be that the three stars functioned as emergency backups for each other.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:42 am    Post subject:

cathy78 wrote:
Theseus wrote:
Getting injured was a big mistake. Probably shouldn't have done that.
I hope this is a lesson learned...


Exactly. They can't keep doing that.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:43 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
shoulder doc wrote:
Brooklyn may end up being the exception this year but part of that is the East, 3 stars that are top flight create their own shot guys in an offensive era, and they're still a good chance they will lose in the finals or sometime before if Harden is still out.


Yes, the Nets could be the proverbial unicorn. They got to this point even though they had all three superstars at the same time for only a small number of games. (I don't know the number off the top of my head, but I'm sure someone in the media has counted it up.) If the Nets win it all, I guess the takeaway will be that the three stars functioned as emergency backups for each other.


Well said, only thing I'll add is that it's not just that they have 3 stars, it's that they have 2 Top 10 and 1 Top 20 stars at the most impactful position in the modern NBA game - the wing.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:26 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
shoulder doc wrote:
Brooklyn may end up being the exception this year but part of that is the East, 3 stars that are top flight create their own shot guys in an offensive era, and they're still a good chance they will lose in the finals or sometime before if Harden is still out.


Yes, the Nets could be the proverbial unicorn. They got to this point even though they had all three superstars at the same time for only a small number of games. (I don't know the number off the top of my head, but I'm sure someone in the media has counted it up.) If the Nets win it all, I guess the takeaway will be that the three stars functioned as emergency backups for each other.


Well said, only thing I'll add is that it's not just that they have 3 stars, it's that they have 2 Top 10 and 1 Top 20 stars at the most impactful position in the modern NBA game - the wing.


Concur. Excellent point that the key is all 3 are wing type players. Usually trying to throw 3 stars together on the fly plus with their injuries is too much to overcome for a championship. I actually thought right when Harden went down that the Bucks would win. Expect Harden to be out about a month in time for the NBA Finals. A team that has built over time, with established chemistry, size and rebounding advantage would prevail over a team that is down to 2 stars and defensively challenged further exacerbated by difficulty to rebound which ends the possession.

If Brooklyn wins it all, it confirms that the old way of winning: Defense, rebounding, offense built off ball and player movement is now secondary.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:47 pm    Post subject:

1. Too many "paycheck" players, not enough winners; many of the new guys were duds.
2. Lack of shooting
3. Stagnant offense
4. No true point guard
5. Bad rotations and poor usage of talent
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:57 pm    Post subject:

1. Starting DS
2. Starting Drums. Although I understand why they needed to get him even with a starting promise as I don't think we could have had him go to the Clips or Nets at the time.
3. Allowing Solomon Hill in the league
4. AD blocking that goof on the Suns to hyperextend his knee
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