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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:01 pm    Post subject: Pace.

I’ve noted that we run up with intensity. It’s again to get easier baskets and take advantage of RW speed in theory.

But since we’re not a very good team on D, and Vogel teams live on their D, was wondering if the speed and sprinting on O is leading to less intensity on D. I know I’m no NBA baller, but playing just pick up games 5 on 5, when it’s a slower paced half court game it’s more physical and defensive oriented.

The Vogel teams in LA have played at 11th and 15th in pace. The Indiana teams played at 11th one season and closer to 20th in others.

In theory, we have elite size. Elite 1 on 1 creators. Why are we pushing the pace? Shouldn’t we just slow it down and play more possession basketball? It may be more boring, but it’s effective. We have a lot of athleticism and size on this team and we aren’t using it by running so much. Sure it could be Russ, but why not try some games to play at a moderate speed ….. less possessions on O usually mean less defensive possessions.

Would love for us to slow the (bleep) down.
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DrDent
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:04 pm    Post subject:

Wolf - many will disagree

With you and me.

I agree with you.

I think there's probably several issues going on here; one of them is an older team, with less defensive talent overall than prior years, going gung ho with pace since that in theory plays to Russ' strengths. It sorta boggles my mind the lengths the team is going to fit him in.

With that said, I'm no longer sure what will fix this ailing team. It use to be easy - we need another ball handler for a few minutes, or another wing defender, or "more spacing." Right now its a host of $#!^ that makes one's head spin.
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dont_be_a_wuss
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:06 pm    Post subject:

Have you looked up the pace of LeBrons Miami teams? Iirc one season they were around 16th in pace and the others, they were 21st or higher in pace. I don’t know if a team like ours is best served by playing fast.
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mad55557777
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Pace.

wolfpaclaker wrote:
I’ve noted that we run up with intensity. It’s again to get easier baskets and take advantage of RW speed in theory.

But since we’re not a very good team on D, and Vogel teams live on their D, was wondering if the speed and sprinting on O is leading to less intensity on D. I know I’m no NBA baller, but playing just pick up games 5 on 5, when it’s a slower paced half court game it’s more physical and defensive oriented.

The Vogel teams in LA have played at 11th and 15th in pace. The Indiana teams played at 11th one season and closer to 20th in others.

In theory, we have elite size. Elite 1 on 1 creators. Why are we pushing the pace? Shouldn’t we just slow it down and play more possession basketball? It may be more boring, but it’s effective. We have a lot of athleticism and size on this team and we aren’t using it by running so much. Sure it could be Russ, but why not try some games to play at a moderate speed ….. less possessions on O usually mean less defensive possessions.

Would love for us to slow the (bleep) down.

spacing. Also westbrook should attack the basket if given the chance in transition, otherwise he would be even more useless.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:19 pm    Post subject:

Thing is even with all this spacing, we aren’t really effective or efficient on offense. Rated in the 20s on O. Why not try to slow the game down, and milk your size. If WB is a problem, then you go with a shooter at the PG spot and Bron runs the point. At this point, it’s clear they’ve tried to cater to fitting WB in, but in the end it needs to be best for the team.

I think with two bigs (especially Dwight) you have some better challenges inside, rebounds and AD is a good close out defender on shooters. We would at least improve our D.

This isn’t WBs team, it’s a team trying to win a title. I think in the playoffs anyway teams will slow the game down.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:21 pm    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
Have you looked up the pace of LeBrons Miami teams? Iirc one season they were around 16th in pace and the others, they were 21st or higher in pace. I don’t know if a team like ours is best served by playing fast.


Never understood the obsession with pace. This isn’t 25 year old LBJ.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:50 am    Post subject:

The paced offense theory was based on WB being able to push the ball and getting easier looks. However I've just seen rushed offense most of the time. More important is defensively, I feel we're not as physically there. Historically if you even look at D'Antoni or Nelson teams that ran a lot, they didn't care much for D. When you don't value your possessions, you also pay for it on D.

Whatever offense we should run, should cater to a way where we can set up on D. We're not set up on D enough, and we're not there enough. I think sustain your legs for D, is the approach we should take. Having size around AD, also allows AD to go onto smalls on D, and us not paying for it on the glass.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:49 am    Post subject:

What I see is a team that pushes the ball up the court really fast, then goes into iso mode. This is self-defeating because it gives the defense time to get set. This is a generalization, because sometimes the pace actually accomplishes something. However, we usually are not generating ball movement.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:44 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
What I see is a team that pushes the ball up the court really fast, then goes into iso mode. This is self-defeating because it gives the defense time to get set. This is a generalization, because sometimes the pace actually accomplishes something. However, we usually are not generating ball movement.


Yes, the question is is this a lack of coaching or is this a deficiency in personnel? The easy answer is "both", but then which one plays a greater role?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:44 am    Post subject:

When you trade for garbage called Westbrook and paying him 44 mill dollars, you have to use him. there is only 1 way to use him, play with pace.

Its easy to say, play slow or play him as 6th man. then you have absolutely no chance to trade him. Also, we filled entire roster with vet minimums because of WB trade. its not like we have many options other that WB.

we are screwed for the foreseeable future.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:57 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
What I see is a team that pushes the ball up the court really fast, then goes into iso mode. This is self-defeating because it gives the defense time to get set. This is a generalization, because sometimes the pace actually accomplishes something. However, we usually are not generating ball movement.


Yes, the question is is this a lack of coaching or is this a deficiency in personnel? The easy answer is "both", but then which one plays a greater role?


I'll go with the deficiency in personnel. It's easy to blame Vogel, but I'm not sure that any coach in the history of basketball could make this work, especially when given so little time. There are layers to this, such as Lebron's unwillingness or inability to attack the rim, which in turn minimizes his ability to pass the ball on the move and turns him into much more of an iso player at this point in his career. Westbrook is really good at lobs to the big men, but it seems like we've lost the element of surprise. Or maybe it's just a symptom of the lack of spacing. Either way, it seems like other teams are starting to treat the lobs like a defensive back in football when the quarterback throws the ball up for grabs.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:39 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
What I see is a team that pushes the ball up the court really fast, then goes into iso mode. This is self-defeating because it gives the defense time to get set. This is a generalization, because sometimes the pace actually accomplishes something. However, we usually are not generating ball movement.


Yes, the question is is this a lack of coaching or is this a deficiency in personnel? The easy answer is "both", but then which one plays a greater role?

I agree with Aeneas, but I see it a bit differently. While the offense seems to gain no significant advantage to playing faster or slower, I think we are wasting energy running up and down, playing smaller less capable to defend/rebound lineups and thus the Lakers really gain no net advantage.

They may be better off playing bigger and not worrying so much about spacing and speed. The pace and space game is ran by the entire league practically and we are playing right into their hands. Only, they have better execution than us, and even more capable younger athletes. What we should do is focus on defense, and build the team defense first so they can get into a situation where they have an actual advantage.

Pace and space and small ball isn’t giving us any advantage. All of WBs flaws still exposed and Bron still playing a very perimeter game. If this is the case, just play slower and bigger and dominate on the glass, dominate inside defensively.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:47 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
What I see is a team that pushes the ball up the court really fast, then goes into iso mode. This is self-defeating because it gives the defense time to get set. This is a generalization, because sometimes the pace actually accomplishes something. However, we usually are not generating ball movement.


Yes, the question is is this a lack of coaching or is this a deficiency in personnel? The easy answer is "both", but then which one plays a greater role?


I'll go with the deficiency in personnel. It's easy to blame Vogel, but I'm not sure that any coach in the history of basketball could make this work, especially when given so little time. There are layers to this, such as Lebron's unwillingness or inability to attack the rim, which in turn minimizes his ability to pass the ball on the move and turns him into much more of an iso player at this point in his career. Westbrook is really good at lobs to the big men, but it seems like we've lost the element of surprise. Or maybe it's just a symptom of the lack of spacing. Either way, it seems like other teams are starting to treat the lobs like a defensive back in football when the quarterback throws the ball up for grabs.


Thanks, I see it much the same way. As you alluded I think there are multiple dimensions/layers here:
- lack of spacing, how much can Nunn contribute in place of Westbrook
- lack of length/agility at the 3/4 (Melo/THT) with AD playing the 5. This is the one I'm most pessimistic about, I don't think Ariza will move the needle, the loss of Kieff/Kuzma has significantly reduced defensive versatility.
- lack of an effective 5 with AD at the 4. DJ hasn't been demonstrably better than Marc/McGee.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:03 am    Post subject:

Pace only works if you're a good defensive team. Our opponents have all the time in the world to get back, zone up, and shut off passing lanes.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:03 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
What I see is a team that pushes the ball up the court really fast, then goes into iso mode. This is self-defeating because it gives the defense time to get set. This is a generalization, because sometimes the pace actually accomplishes something. However, we usually are not generating ball movement.


Yes, the question is is this a lack of coaching or is this a deficiency in personnel? The easy answer is "both", but then which one plays a greater role?


I'll go with the deficiency in personnel. It's easy to blame Vogel, but I'm not sure that any coach in the history of basketball could make this work, especially when given so little time. There are layers to this, such as Lebron's unwillingness or inability to attack the rim, which in turn minimizes his ability to pass the ball on the move and turns him into much more of an iso player at this point in his career. Westbrook is really good at lobs to the big men, but it seems like we've lost the element of surprise. Or maybe it's just a symptom of the lack of spacing. Either way, it seems like other teams are starting to treat the lobs like a defensive back in football when the quarterback throws the ball up for grabs.


Great point Aeneas. Teams seem to just blow up those plays more and more. Ive also noticed refs hiolding their whistles on some of that, then again maybe im just imagining the contact.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:26 pm    Post subject:

BandwagonLBJhopper wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
Have you looked up the pace of LeBrons Miami teams? Iirc one season they were around 16th in pace and the others, they were 21st or higher in pace. I don’t know if a team like ours is best served by playing fast.


Never understood the obsession with pace. This isn’t 25 year old LBJ.


Even at 25, his Miami teams were 23rd, 15th, 21st and then 27th in the league in pace.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:25 am    Post subject:

I agree with wolf as I think playing a slower basketball will also help to prepare for playoffs bball. If they struggle with the half-court now, it can be fixed. If they have to figure things out in April we'll have no chance to get another ring.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:51 am    Post subject:

Westy can’t play in a half-court offense. He’s usually the one pushing the pace. It’s why he struggles so much in the Playoffs when the game slows down.
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