Vogel will pay the price for Pelinka's lack of vision
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:01 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
cthroatgtr wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
If Vogel is serious about keeping his job, he will ride the following lineup for most minutes:

Reaves and THT with the big 3.

Russ
Reaves
THT
Lebron
AD

Has enough playmaking and shooting without losing the defense.


Lacks shooting. Reeves is unproven and THT has yet to prove he can shoot either. You are also really small with LBJ at 6'8 then down to THT at 6'4.


Not worried about being small. The shooting concern is valid but it looks like Reaves hits his share and THT looks to be developing that 3 ball.

This lineup is obviously contingent upon Reaves and THT taking and making 3s.


Maybe, but really this looks like a lineup generated by inserting the two role players who have done the least to disqualify themselves so far. Everyone else has shown their warts. Carmelo gets hunted by other teams on defense. Monk and Ellington are streaky on offense and awful on defense. Bazemore and Bradley are just generally unimpressive. I guess we're waiting on Nunn and Ariza to rescue us.

I think we just need to work through this. Vogel is a defensive coach. He needs to coach these guys up. I'm not sure whether much can be done with Carmelo at this point in his career. Monk seems like he has a slight frame. He looks like he has the body of a high school player sometimes. But maybe Vogel can get something out of him on defense.
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LakerSD
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:16 pm    Post subject:

@AH, I’m just going with the glue guy (Reaves) who has been a plus net rating player most of the time even amongst negative net rating lineups.

THT just brings more skill and defensive potential with his length.

We need those 2 types of skill sets imo.

I would also love to give Chaundee Brown some run. This team could really use his energy and style of play tbh.

Edit: I don’t mind your suggestions of Monk and Melo, but they need to remain engaged and not be net negatives. Not sure they are 20+ min players right now…
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:25 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
cthroatgtr wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
If Vogel is serious about keeping his job, he will ride the following lineup for most minutes:

Reaves and THT with the big 3.

Russ
Reaves
THT
Lebron
AD

Has enough playmaking and shooting without losing the defense.


Lacks shooting. Reeves is unproven and THT has yet to prove he can shoot either. You are also really small with LBJ at 6'8 then down to THT at 6'4.


Not worried about being small. The shooting concern is valid but it looks like Reaves hits his share and THT looks to be developing that 3 ball.

This lineup is obviously contingent upon Reaves and THT taking and making 3s.


Maybe, but really this looks like a lineup generated by inserting the two role players who have done the least to disqualify themselves so far. Everyone else has shown their warts. Carmelo gets hunted by other teams on defense. Monk and Ellington are streaky on offense and awful on defense. Bazemore and Bradley are just generally unimpressive. I guess we're waiting on Nunn and Ariza to rescue us.

I think we just need to work through this. Vogel is a defensive coach. He needs to coach these guys up. I'm not sure whether much can be done with Carmelo at this point in his career. Monk seems like he has a slight frame. He looks like he has the body of a high school player sometimes. But maybe Vogel can get something out of him on defense.


Yes, there is always the allure of what a player might become until he becomes the player he is. Relying on THT to share the paint with AD and Lebron really isn’t that different than relying on Westbrook. There are several formulas for winning in today’s game and I don’t see this roster fitting any of them.
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dino
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:19 pm    Post subject:

wow...vogel is going to get fired for this...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:23 pm    Post subject:

This is what you get when you give a defensive minded coach a roster full of non-defenders. Bad on both ends.
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ducasse
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:50 pm    Post subject:

It's not Vogel's fault that LA is where an NBA players' ability to shoot comes to die unless your name is Carmelo. Monk, Bazemore and Ellington were all over 40% from 3 last year and they've been shooting 3's like Westbrook.

Last edited by ducasse on Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Laker_Town
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject:

Vogel doesn't care and is expecting to get fired.

The squad is heavily flawed but Vogel continues to put lineups together that can only be explained as a protest move

He's likely feels disrespected about his extension and while he doesn't have social media, he hears everyone complain
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:55 pm    Post subject:

cthroatgtr wrote:
Real issue is defense and at the core is the roster makeup. The team consists of two past their prime centers in Dwight and DJ. AD is F/C but is best at C but not with this roster. Once past AD you have LBJ & Melo, two former SF now playing PF. The only other forward is Ariza, currently out. Then the rest of the team is made up of undersized guards. The team is loaded with 6'1, 6'2, 6'3 and 6'4 guards. Where are the true swing players. To play modern, position less basketball, you need 6'5-6'8 guys that can play 1-3 even 4. Then you need some mobile bigs. That is before you factor half the team is old and not as athletic as they once were. That is a recipe for disaster. If Austin Reeves is one of your better defenders, you have a huge problem. The guy plays smart and with energy, but he doesn't have the muscle yet. THT is probably the only guard you can throw at bigger wings. Jerami Grant is the type of player the Lakers lack and the type of player that torches them. Whether or not you want to be blame Westbrook, it isn't WB, it was the loss of depth the WB trade caused.

This. Plus the injuries.

I think Pelinka did have a vision of how to build a championship team:

Another scoring, ball-handling PG (Westbrook, and to a lesser extent, THT, Nunn and Rondo)
More 3-point shooters
Go with size and athleticism at the 5 (Dwight and DJ)
Double down on being a fastbreak team

But with only the MMLE and vet's min to work with, he was really limited in executing that vision.

I think having a 3-and-D forward with length and athleticism (not necessarily Grant, but someone of that mold) combined with good health would help. Besides that, this team needs an attitude adjustment.

They're fighting and scratching and clawing more in the last 2 games, but they need to come out and punch teams in the mouth in the 1st qtr with their defense, rebounding and transition game.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:59 pm    Post subject:

Laker_Town wrote:
Vogel doesn't care and is expecting to get fired.

The squad is heavily flawed but Vogel continues to put lineups together that can only be explained as a protest move

He's likely feels disrespected about his extension and while he doesn't have social media, he hears everyone complain


Roster is most definitely flawed. I’m not sure what rotations would have been better in this game. You can’t win without a power forward. If our small ball guards could shoot threes and put pressure on the rim we could make teams pay. At this point the offensive isn’t justifying its small ball existence.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:40 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
@AH, I’m just going with the glue guy (Reaves) who has been a plus net rating player most of the time even amongst negative net rating lineups.

THT just brings more skill and defensive potential with his length.

We need those 2 types of skill sets imo.

I would also love to give Chaundee Brown some run. This team could really use his energy and style of play tbh.

Edit: I don’t mind your suggestions of Monk and Melo, but they need to remain engaged and not be net negatives. Not sure they are 20+ min players right now…


I said that THT and Reaves were the two role players who had done the least to disqualify themselves. After last night's game, you can see my point. When you wrote your post, THT seemed like a much better choice than he does right now. He may eventually turn into a good player, but it's really easy to get over-excited about his potential. I don't have a problem with giving him playing time, but he's not our savior. I expect that the same thing will be true of Reaves. As we see him more, his limitations will become more apparent.

So maybe Nunn will show up and be the role player who finally delivers for us. Or maybe it will be Ariza. These things could happen. Or we may just need to find a way to get the other guys to play at a functional level. If these guys are really all excrement, then this season is going to be a rough ride. But I really think some of these guys can do better than what we've seen.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:07 am    Post subject:

Rob needs to be compiling and assessing a list of potential replacement coaches, RIGHT NOW, so that come Jan 1 and this team is UNDER .500, the ax needs to come down...!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:21 pm    Post subject:

The loss of so many good defensive role players from the championship team is really hurting. It started to be noticeable last season with Green gone and now it's glaring.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject:

Can we at least play 40 games with a full squad before we start firing and trading everyone?

Holy (bleep), this forum is full of Chicken Littles and scaremongers.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:56 pm    Post subject:

cthroatgtr wrote:
Real issue is defense and at the core is the roster makeup. The team consists of two past their prime centers in Dwight and DJ. AD is F/C but is best at C but not with this roster. Once past AD you have LBJ & Melo, two former SF now playing PF. The only other forward is Ariza, currently out. Then the rest of the team is made up of undersized guards. The team is loaded with 6'1, 6'2, 6'3 and 6'4 guards. Where are the true swing players. To play modern, position less basketball, you need 6'5-6'8 guys that can play 1-3 even 4. Then you need some mobile bigs. That is before you factor half the team is old and not as athletic as they once were. That is a recipe for disaster. If Austin Reeves is one of your better defenders, you have a huge problem. The guy plays smart and with energy, but he doesn't have the muscle yet. THT is probably the only guard you can throw at bigger wings. Jerami Grant is the type of player the Lakers lack and the type of player that torches them. Whether or not you want to be blame Westbrook, it isn't WB, it was the loss of depth the WB trade caused.


THIS. RIGHT HERE.

We have 9 guards, 4 forwards, and 2 centers. No swingmen whatsoever over 6'4 and under the age of 35. We have the roster balance of a mid-major NCAA team that can't recruit.

In that glorious 6-5 to 6-9 range (I know the prior post said 6-5 to 6-8, but we see a lot of 6-9 guys swinging from 3 thru 5 today), we used to have:

2020
Green, KCP, Caruso, Kuz, Kieff, Dudley

2021
KCP, Caruso, Kuz, Kieff, Matthews, Trez, Dudley

But now?

2022
Ariza, Melo, Reaves, Chaundee

And people wonder why our defense is so poor. No NFL exec in their right mind would expect a team to have a decent D while taking away all their linebackers... and that's essentially what Pelinka did here.

Guys like Porter (OK, a longshot since GSW targeted him hard), JaMychal Green (6-8), Moe Harkless (6-9), Alize Johnson (6-7), Rodney Hood (6-8), Dave Nwaba (6-5), Reggie Bullock (6-7), Alec Burks (6-6), and a bunch of other multi-position swingmen types were available for mid-level or less, and we didn't grab one. Kieff and Caruso wanted to come back, and yet were dumped in the wake of the Westbrook trade.

I haven't seen this kind of willful imbalance on a hoops team outside of Steve Alford's tenure at UCLA. If your hope for championship-level defense rests on a 36-year-old Trevor Ariza and 2 centers over 33, then you're in trouble. Geez, we could have signed younger guys like Khem Birch or Isaiah Hartenstein if we thought Gasol was too slow. I get signing Dwight back because he knew the system, but DJ without having a younger, more mobile PF/C swing option on the roster is just bad.

But most of all, it keeps coming back to NINE GUARDS???

Ugh.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:21 pm    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:
M2K wrote:
The problem with the Lakers is defense and Westbrook.

Its not complicated.

When you throw away KCP and Caruso... you better replace them with similar or better defensive players. Rob Pelinka did just the opposite.

If anyone should be fired, its Rob.

Caruso is thriving defensively in Chicago and a key player on their team. To think we could have kept someone that brought exactly what we lack now... falls on the GM.

Rob Pelinka went for the flash (Westbrook) instead of giving value to cohesiveness, chemistry, defense, etc. He did the same last year letting Dwight Howard walk to sign Montrezl Harrell.

Pelinka's team building philosophy is terrible... while his skills at getting players to sign is strong.

Lakers better not wait for the trade deadline to start making trades. They need to find a way to acquire Ben Simmons now.. even if that means giving up any player not named LeBron and Davis.

You're missing two even bigger problems with this year's roster when it comes to defense: the lack of more 3s and 4s to make up what we lost in Kuzma and M. Morris.

Now, one can argue that Ariza was brought in to address that, but he is still only one player that is now hurt in the leg while being old. If he were healthy and defensively solid like he was last year, we'd be better off, but the thinness of the roster at the SF/PF spot was known early, and Rob did nothing but add more guards to the glut we already have.

Defense and rebounding have suffered GREATLY because of his fascination with making the Lakers a tribe of Hobbits.


ABSOLUTELY. 100%. The fact that guards outnumber legit forwards by over 2 to 1 (or 3 to 1 if you count AD as more of a center rather than a forward) is both ridiculous and maddening at the same time. on defense, our team is the equivalent of a team with 4 linemen, 7 under-sized defensive backs, and no linebackers whatsoever.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:28 pm    Post subject:

MIMLaker wrote:
We have the roster balance of a mid-major NCAA team that can't recruit.


Nice line.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:48 am    Post subject:

Salary cap will lead to a deficient roster if you top load all your salary on three guys and you aren't willing to pay a huge tax bill to keep a guy like Caruso.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:53 am    Post subject:

ducasse wrote:
Salary cap will lead to a deficient roster if you top load all your salary on three guys and you aren't willing to pay a huge tax bill to keep a guy like Caruso.

The Lakers could have kept Caruso, and tried to move THT. They decided not to. This isn't on the big 3. I think they like the prospects of a Westbrook/THT backcourt more than a Westbrook/Caruso backcourt.

We are missing players like KCP and Caruso. Those are the sort of role players we need to find. Since it was Rob who found them in the first place, I have some faith he will be able to find those kinds of players again but it will not be easy. We need to make a small trade and also get lucky with the buyout market.

This roster is not ready to win a title even if the big 3 stay healthy and play well. The big 3 can get you in position, but you need role players around them to do their job. We don't have those guys. The guys we have who are playing big roles right now were cut from the Warriors (Bradley) and another guy who fit in really well is a rookie undrafted (Reaves). You can't win a ring this way. I think our post trade deadline roster could be good enough to win in the playoffs if Rob makes the moves needed.

Lakers are 6-3 with Bron, and 1 of those wins was without AD, and the other win was without Bron basically. So the big 3 have barely played together. Let the big 3 play together, get some role players around them that are consistent 2-way threats, and now you have a shot in May/June. I have pretty much given up on a top 2 seed. Right now just get into the playoffs, and make some moves with the roster to get role players around Bron/AD/Westbrook that can do what Vogel needs ala Caruso/KCP.

As Bron has shown he can still close games at an elite level. As WB has shown, he can take over games and change the course of a game on his own. AD is still AD. What we need is to get some quality consistent role players around them, but it's not going to be easy at all to accomplish within the regular season.
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