How LA Lakers Mismanaged Their Way from Champs to Chumps
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ThePageDude
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:35 pm    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Cuban has won the same number of rings as Jeanie
With Jeanie as the Head of the Lakers
<snip>


Cuban is an owner, he's played no other role for the Mavericks. The only valid comparison to Jeanie is with Jeanie as an owner. Dr. Buss passed away in 2013 and clearly he was the owner until then, so any championships prior to his passing are to his credit - as the owner. Since 2013 the Lakers have won exactly one championship in 2020. VLF's point is absolutely correct : Jeanie 1 Cuban 1 - anything else is comparing apples to oranges.

Oh and that part about "Mitch making many mediocre decisions", I'd love to have the Lakers FO back to making many "mediocre" decisions again on the way to getting at least 4 championships (2001-2010), just like under Mitch's "mediocre" watch.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:55 pm    Post subject:

Cuban won the race to sign Niko Harrison, the Lakers weren’t in the running likely because he had no connection to the Lakers. The last thing that Jeanie wants is someone to tell her that she is wrong. But that is an area of the organization that isn’t subject to the CBA where the Lakers are being out spent. Dallas has around 50 more front office staff than the Lakers and 6 analytics positions to the Lakers 3. The Clippers have about 30 more FO staff. Teams that we think of as cheap (OKC, NO) are on par with FO staff as the Lakers.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:26 pm    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Cuban has won the same number of rings as Jeanie
With Jeanie as the Head of the Lakers
<snip>
Cuban is an owner, he's played no other role for the Mavericks. The only valid comparison to Jeanie is with Jeanie as an owner. Dr. Buss passed away in 2013 and clearly he was the owner until then, so any championships prior to his passing are to his credit - as the owner. Since 2013 the Lakers have won exactly one championship in 2020. VLF's point is absolutely correct : Jeanie 1 Cuban 1 - anything else is comparing apples to oranges.

Oh and that part about "Mitch making many mediocre decisions", I'd love to have the Lakers FO back to making many "mediocre" decisions again on the way to getting at least 4 championships (2001-2010), just like under Mitch's "mediocre" watch.
Was he an integral part of the Laker's past success, yes. Was he mentored/trained under tuteledge of the great Jery West, yes

Would he have been the best GM for the Lakers during these past few years, battling/working with Magic/Kurt/Linda/LBJ - probably not. He is a definite upgrade for the Charlotte Hornets, where the demands are much smaller and te glare/expectations are far below LaLaLand (https://swarmandsting.com/2021/11/04/charlotte-hornets-success-product-finally-gm-drafts-well/).

Since Jeanie/Mark are not part of basketball operations, it is hard to compare outside of how many rings were won.

Mark Cuban didn't have the drama that Jeanie went through, that started with

** her power struggles with Johnny/Jim Buss (https://www.si.com/nba/2017/03/04/los-angeles-lakers-jeanie-buss-jim-buss-magic-johnson-rob-pelinka-court-family-trust / https://www.ocregister.com/2017/03/03/buss-siblings-battle-for-control-of-lakers-goes-to-court-as-power-struggle-escalates/),
** Mitch working with Jimmy Buss (https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2019/2/15/18225951/la-lakers-news-mitch-kupchak-jerry-buss-jeanie-jim-magic-johnson-lebron-james),
** Jimmy Buss' possible trades (https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2021/11/8/22764082/jeanie-buss-jim-mitch-kupchak-fired-magic-johnson-rob-pelinka-trade-deadline-demarcus-cousins),
** Magic's concerns (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2693926-magic-johnson-will-have-a-damning-case-against-jim-buss-and-mitch-kupchak),
Mitch's concerns about Jimmy Buss, (https://lakeshowlife.com/2021/04/20/los-angeles-lakers-mitch-kupchak-jim-puss/),
** Magic's resignation (https://www.nba.com/news/lakers-magic-johnson-explains-resignation) and
** Magic/Pelinka getting back together (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/columnist/mark-medina/2020/10/13/lakers-rob-pelinka-magic-johnson-reconciled-can-celebrate-nba-title/5979446002/) - LOL![/list]
** Influence of Klutch/LBJ (aka Rise and Fall of LeWestBrick - lol!)
Life in LaLaLand is never boring, as noting their tv coverage despite being an awful team - lol!

Mark Cuban is Da Man for the Dallas Mavericks - no questions asked.

Nico Harrison (https://boardroom.tv/who-is-nico-harrison-mavericks-gm/), in many ways, is like Rob Pelinka. He represents Mark Cuban's "Outside the Box" mentality since actually making trades (even with clients/contacts/people that he knows well) is different than his expertise.

He brings what Mark is looking for
"And in his new General Manager role with the Dallas Mavericks, Cuban is entrusting Harrison with bringing a new perspective to what has long been a traditionally staffed position occupied by salary cap gurus, talent evaluators, and former NBA players directly connected to franchises.

Harrison is looking to bridge a gap, bringing an expertise and understanding in each of those silos — in addition to boasting a web of existing relationships with players, agents, power brokers, and more across the basketball community. That’s a unique, valuable dynamic he’s poised to introduce to NBA front office culture."

"When the Dallas Mavericks first hired former Nike executive Nico Harrison to take over as General Manager of the Dallas Mavericks, it was clear what they were focused on. With no solid experience running an NBA franchise on his record, it seemed odd Mark Cuban settled on Nico to replace Mavs legend Donnie Nelson in the front office.

Nelson had been a fixture in the Mark Cuban era of the Mavs. He had more contacts around the league than just about any front office executive in the league. He may not have been staunch day-today manager but he had a knack for the deal and a track record of success.

Nico came to Dallas as a highly respected figure, both by teams and by players. He wasn’t just a shoe salesman rather he understood the game at a level very few do. His relationships, business acumen, and cutting edge knowledge of the game made him an elite hire – even if it was out side of the box."

Mark and Jeanie are both very smart and savvy while obsessed with winning rings. One major difference is that the pressure, scrutiny, devotion, national attention, sports media's intense bright glare, tradition, expectations and fan base demands are far greater in LaLaLand than in Dallas
Note: I just came back from Dallas a couple days ago and very few conversations were about the Mavericks at numerous sports bars, as oppose to what is happening at LA sports bars - lol

With both franchises facing critical decisions this off-season, it will be interesting to see the paths taken by both organizations
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:44 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Cuban won the race to sign Niko Harrison, the Lakers weren’t in the running likely because he had no connection to the Lakers. The last thing that Jeanie wants is someone to tell her that she is wrong. But that is an area of the organization that isn’t subject to the CBA where the Lakers are being out spent. Dallas has around 50 more front office staff than the Lakers and 6 analytics positions to the Lakers 3. The Clippers have about 30 more FO staff. Teams that we think of as cheap (OKC, NO) are on par with FO staff as the Lakers.
Understand your positions

Jeanie is not very involved in everyday basketball decisions, just like Mark Cuban. Her job is to have people fulfilled her obsession of winning rings by supplying the financial resources.

Lakers have done well with draft choices, so having 50+ staff members and 3+ more analytics personnel hasn't translated into more tangible success - it does look when analyzing/assuming that much more will always produce results.

First time I have noted that OKC/NOLA are comparable to LaLaLand Lakers - though I am glad that BI is doing well. Would Laker fans be patient to wait until BI would have/had bloomed this season as a legitimate star - nope.

Do the Lakers' FO have to be much better - YEP!

Will Laker fans that are disappointed that the FO didn't keep BI be patient with THT - hmmmmm.

Accept that all of us have our own opinions, hence the reasons why we are called fans - which is shart for fanatics - lol
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2022 5:48 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

<snip>
Would he have been the best GM for the Lakers during these past few years, battling/working with Magic/Kurt/Linda/LBJ - probably not.

You're arguing that Mitch is a mediocre GM because he would not have known how to deal with a dysfunctional and broken down organizational structure where multiple "besties" have fuzzy yet intrusive roles, and have seemingly unlimited-authority despite demonstrating poor basketball-strategy/team-building acumen?
No sane trained executive builds an organization this way, this kind of management thinking is a surefire way to flunk Business 101.

Quote:

Mark Cuban didn't have the drama that Jeanie went through, that started with


Try googling for "Mavericks corrosive culture" or "Cuban scandal" to get an idea why Jeanie isn't alone in facing scandals/scrutiny. Moreover, giving Jeanie a pass due to the Jim situation is also flawed because she was instrumental in creating that conflict in the first place.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2022 10:46 pm    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:

<snip>
Would he have been the best GM for the Lakers during these past few years, battling/working with Magic/Kurt/Linda/LBJ - probably not.
You're arguing that Mitch is a mediocre GM because he would not have known how to deal with a dysfunctional and broken down organizational structure where multiple "besties" have fuzzy yet intrusive roles, and have seemingly unlimited-authority despite demonstrating poor basketball-strategy/team-building acumen?

No sane trained executive builds an organization this way, this kind of management thinking is a surefire way to flunk Business 101.
Quote:

Mark Cuban didn't have the drama that Jeanie went through, that started with
Try googling for "Mavericks corrosive culture" or "Cuban scandal" to get an idea why Jeanie isn't alone in facing scandals/scrutiny. Moreover, giving Jeanie a pass due to the Jim situation is also flawed because she was instrumental in creating that conflict in the first place.
Mitch was a big part of your described "dysfunctional and broken-down organizational structure since he was a long-standing GM. Of course, maybe he was a very small cog in the whole structure with little influence or history on his job - lol!

How was Jeanie instrumental given that she gave Mitch and Jimmy full rein of basketball operations???

No owner gets a complete pass on the behaivor or effectiveness of the people working for them.

Jeanie has given Rob (Magic/Kurt/Linda) the financial resources and abilities to make big trades (obviously) to win now while not needlessly medling in basketball decisions. Is she perfect - No. Is she passionate and committed on the Lakers winning another ring now - Yes.

Lakers>Clippers
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 5:25 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
]Mitch was a big part of your described "dysfunctional and broken-down organizational structure since he was a long-standing GM. Of course, maybe he was a very small cog in the whole structure with little influence or history on his job - lol!


Huh? Read what I wrote, I'm talking organizational *structure*. The organizational structure was clear with Jim/Mitch, Mitch was GM reporting to Jim the EVP, who reported to ownership/Jeanie, clear chain of command and responsibility, no random side interference like Rambii/Klutch today where it isn't clear who is in charge of what, who has how much control over what.

Quote:

How was Jeanie instrumental given that she gave Mitch and Jimmy full rein of basketball operations???

The huge media leaks, the political infighting and scandal between Jeanie and Jim where nearly all the press leaks emerged from Jeanie? The struggle for ownership control where Jim was booted out? The self-imposed playoffs deadline set by Jim (in response to Jeanie's very public criticism) which eventually led to Moz/Deng?

Quote:

Lakers>Clippers


I don't care 2 whits about the Clippers, I care that the Lakers in that this premier NBA property (one of the biggest revenue making franchises and one of the most recognized brands in the whole world) be led by quality management, maximizes the resources it has, avails of every possible opportunity of getting better. That is absolutely not the case right now.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 9:49 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
]Mitch was a big part of your described "dysfunctional and broken-down organizational structure since he was a long-standing GM. Of course, maybe he was a very small cog in the whole structure with little influence or history on his job - lol!
Huh? Read what I wrote, I'm talking organizational *structure*. The organizational structure was clear with Jim/Mitch, Mitch was GM reporting to Jim the EVP, who reported to ownership/Jeanie, clear chain of command and responsibility, no random side interference like Rambii/Klutch today where it isn't clear who is in charge of what, who has how much control over what
Quote:
How was Jeanie instrumental given that she gave Mitch and Jimmy full rein of basketball operations???
The huge media leaks, the political infighting and scandal between Jeanie and Jim where nearly all the press leaks emerged from Jeanie? The struggle for ownership control where Jim was booted out? The self-imposed playoffs deadline set by Jim (in response to Jeanie's very public criticism) which eventually led to Moz/Deng?
Quote:

Lakers>Clippers
I don't care 2 whits about the Clippers, I care that the Lakers in that this premier NBA property (one of the biggest revenue making franchises and one of the most recognized brands in the whole world) be led by quality management, maximizes the resources it has, avails of every possible opportunity of getting better. That is absolutely not the case right now.
Many voices in the FO - as always for years and with every team, whether known or unknown

Presently, the official structure for basketbll decision is
Final Decision Maker: Rob
Advisors: Kurt/Linda/LBJ/Magic/Assistant GMs
In the past - Phil, Kobe, Magic and Assistant GMs
Understand that people believe Rob is just the person executing the trades that others are telling him to make, might or might/not be true

People are saying (whether legitimate or illegitimate) that LBJ/Kurt/Linda/Magic are changing Rob's decisions while remembering that superstars have a small to large influence on what decisions are being made.
In the past, the battles between Phil and Jerry West were very volatile

Media Leaks
In today's social media world and the glare/scrutiny/worldwide interest/fan obsession will greatly amplify anything and everything about all things Lakers.

Your words about Jim's "actions" that severly handicapped Mitch's hands wre something that Jeanie (The Owner) needed to make to provide clear guidelines, leadership and needed stability (though it should have been more stable).

I'm not interested in the Clippers, though they have what you it seems what you arelooking for - stability, but nobody is interested in the Clippers despite having PG13/Kwahi as their superstars and haven't gone deep into the playoffs.

Appreciate your comments
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 8:33 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

<snip>

I'm not interested in the Clippers, though they have what you it seems what you arelooking for - stability, but nobody is interested in the Clippers despite having PG13/Kwahi as their superstars and haven't gone deep into the playoffs.

Appreciate your comments


I didn't mention the Clippers at all, nor did I state that they're the model the Lakers should follow *anywhere* in this discussion. The whole original discussion was about "Mitch's mediocrity" (as compared to the post-Mitch front office) and your claim that Jeanie has outperformed Cuban, both of which are extremely suspect claims in light of actual facts.

But now that you've brought up the Clippers in this fashion, I'll finish off this discussion by stating that it's extremely flawed logic to say "the Lakers should reject what team X is doing because the Lakers won a recent championship while Team X hasn't won anything". Good managers adopt best practices wherever they find them.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 12:21 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:

I'm not interested in the Clippers, though they have what you it seems what you arelooking for - stability, but nobody is interested in the Clippers despite having PG13/Kwahi as their superstars and haven't gone deep into the playoffs.

Appreciate your comments


I didn't mention the Clippers at all, nor did I state that they're the model the Lakers should follow *anywhere* in this discussion. The whole original discussion was about "Mitch's mediocrity" (as compared to the post-Mitch front office) and your claim that Jeanie has outperformed Cuban, both of which are extremely suspect claims in light of actual facts.

But now that you've brought up the Clippers in this fashion, I'll finish off this discussion by stating that it's extremely flawed logic to say "the Lakers should reject what team X is doing because the Lakers won a recent championship while Team X hasn't won anything". Good managers adopt best practices wherever they find them.
LOL!

You did include the Clippers in your post and didn't say that the Clippers is a model

With Jeanie and Cuban both being owners and not head of basketball operations, one could say that one could compare how many championships one ownership has achieved.

As shared above, the Lakers have been more successful.

Jeanie's legal battles with her brothers have been posted above and something that Mark has suffered.

NBA is a "Copycat League." Lakers have taken a definitive path to success (generally) that is dependent on winning with superstars, style and entertainment because they have the eyes and ears from people around the world watching them that is far different than the vast majority of NBA teams.

Does the Lakers' FO have to produce next year - YES.
Will they be making many changes - YES
Will they be integrating new and successful ideas if it fits their agenda - YES

Go Lakers
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 3:53 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:

LOL!

You did include the Clippers in your post and didn't say that the Clippers is a model



You brought up the Clippers out of nowhere without me ever having mentioned them. The message trail is here for all to see.

Quote:

As shared above, the Lakers have been more successful.

Over their entire history, sure. That's NOT what your original statement was. Your original statement was Jeanie has been more successful than Cuban, which is false if one uses championships as the measure.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 9:29 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:

LOL!

You did include the Clippers in your post and didn't say that the Clippers is a model

You brought up the Clippers out of nowhere without me ever having mentioned them. The message trail is here for all to see.
Quote:
As shared above, the Lakers have been more successful.
Over their entire history, sure. That's NOT what your original statement was. Your original statement was Jeanie has been more successful than Cuban, which is false if one uses championships as the measure.
Let’s discuss things that are actually important, what the Lakers need to do to win a ring

Celtics, Suns, Warriors and Bucks have very good teams who have a very good chance of winning a ring. Lakers, with one good major trade and a couple impact players away, from having a team that can beat aforementioned teams

Of course, every team can/want/will state that. With LBJ/AD, for the next 1-2 years, have the firepower and talent that few teams can match
Warriors - Steph, Klay, Green, Poole
Suns - CP3, Booker
Bucks - Greek Freak
Celtics - Tatum, Brown
many other teams right below those mentioned
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 10:41 am    Post subject:

What can the Lakers do to win a ring? That is the question, and can it be done? A lot depends on the positions that AD and LBJ spend the most time next season. Assuming WB is gone I only see AD and LBJ as definite NBA quality starters on the team.

First, we need an NBA starting caliber player at either C, PF, or SF, (whichever position not played mostly by AD and LBJ) preferably one that can play and guard multiple positions (FC, or F, or GF). If AD and/or LBJ is flexible we can target the best available player regardless if C, PF, or SF and then slot our stars in the other two positions.

Then we need an NBA starting caliber PG and SG that plays defense and shoots >35% from 3pt. Perhaps we can get by with Nunn and/or Monk but replacing them with legitimate starters and letting them be rotation players would put the team in a better position to win a chip.

And then, finally, we need to add quality reserves with the Vet minimums instead of wasting them like last year. Imo we can excuse the mistake on Bazemore and I was pleasantly surprised with Monk. Nunn we can just say bad luck, but we have to do a better job than like was done with DeAndre, Ariza, and Ellington as many of us predicted their uselessness at the time of signing.

It’s going to be a challenge for sure and the odds of success may be stacked against us…but I’d rather go for it…try to win another chip centered around AD and LBJ as imo that’s our best option.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 10:14 pm    Post subject:

Hanging from Rafters wrote:
What can the Lakers do to win a ring? That is the question, and can it be done? A lot depends on the positions that AD and LBJ spend the most time next season. Assuming WB is gone I only see AD and LBJ as definite NBA quality starters on the team.

First, we need an NBA starting caliber player at either C, PF, or SF, (whichever position not played mostly by AD and LBJ) preferably one that can play and guard multiple positions (FC, or F, or GF). If AD and/or LBJ is flexible we can target the best available player regardless if C, PF, or SF and then slot our stars in the other two positions.

Then we need an NBA starting caliber PG and SG that plays defense and shoots >35% from 3pt. Perhaps we can get by with Nunn and/or Monk but replacing them with legitimate starters and letting them be rotation players would put the team in a better position to win a chip.

And then, finally, we need to add quality reserves with the Vet minimums instead of wasting them like last year. Imo we can excuse the mistake on Bazemore and I was pleasantly surprised with Monk. Nunn we can just say bad luck, but we have to do a better job than like was done with DeAndre, Ariza, and Ellington as many of us predicted their uselessness at the time of signing.

It’s going to be a challenge for sure and the odds of success may be stacked against us…but I’d rather go for it…try to win another chip centered around AD and LBJ as imo that’s our best option.
They need players who are committed to

“ "You've just got to lean on the work," Paul said. "It all goes back to the work. You can't cheat the game. You've got to do the strength and conditioning, you've got to lift, you've got to get your rest, you got to get your shots up.

"When you do that, you live with the results."”
~ CP3
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2022 10:06 am    Post subject:

Article doesn't mention passing on Tatum. Wouldn't have to trade for AD. They might still have Ingram, maybe wouldn't have the 2020 ring but wouldn't be looking at another 10 year hole to dig out of.

Mike
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 12:14 pm    Post subject:

eznoh wrote:
Article doesn't mention passing on Tatum. Wouldn't have to trade for AD. They might still have Ingram, maybe wouldn't have the 2020 ring but wouldn't be looking at another 10 year hole to dig out of.

Mike
Rings is the Only Agenda/Goal/Mission for Laker fans/ownership

With a healthy LBJ/AD, team should always be in contention for a Ring
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 12:15 am    Post subject:

Regarding Mitch, I always thought it was Jerry who closed the big stars and Mitch who surrounded them with talent. That fell apart when Jerry was ill (DH part 1) and after he passsed, with Jim. I may be dead wrong but it is what I thought....
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