Why Vogel wasn't the best Head Coach for the Past Season Roster

 
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 1:14 am    Post subject: Why Vogel wasn't the best Head Coach for the Past Season Roster

Interesting Article
https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2022/5/1/23050496/why-lakers-fired-frank-vogel-what-they-can-learn-for-next-coach
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 2:12 am    Post subject:

Yeah I read this a few days ago. It's the age old argument, whether you should change your entire system to cater to some players. Reminds me of D'Antoni in LA a little bit or Phil Jackson when he would make Payton run the Triangle. The systems are good and proven but the players don't really fit. Our case was a little unique in that we had won a championship and did exceptionally well around AD/Lebron using Vogel's preferred defensive coverages.

Vogel's failures to adjust his defensive coverages style/preference. sure I'll say a better more adaptable coach with more creativity adjusts. But on offense, we went a ton more with Westbrook style lineups where we were trying our best to keep the paint open and Westbrook (And Lebron) to have that open driving lane. It made us a soft team in many regards and took away from the physicality that Vogel teams need to play with (and that we played with in 19-20). There's no way Vogel goes with these lineups if not for Westbrook.

Overall yeah no doubt he was not the right fit for last year's team, but I do think he fit AD/Lebron very well. And if we're trading Westbrook, are we going to find a better coach than him for 5M a year on 3 year deals? Lets see. I mean if we're keeping WB and some of the vets like Melo, for sure Vogel had to go. But we shouldn't be keeping any older player than Lebron/AD on this roster and my preference is to trade AD/Lebron for longterm assets anyway as I think the title runs are over (but we can be a 4th to 6th seed level good team still if AD stays healthy)

I mean the last 2 games of the season, it was Reaves/McClung/Stanley/Monk and guys like that playing Vogel's schemes and winning. In Dallas, Jason Kidd is using a lot of the stuff he and Vogel put in 19-20. They beat Utah without Luka for a lot of that series using the same defensive coverages and schemes that Kidd took from Vogel.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 4:01 am    Post subject:

Frank should have been fired after the winless preseason. The roster was healthy. No excuse for that. When you have that much talent on the roster, you have to win games. The losses were embarrassing. The small ball. The blown leads. Outcoached on a nightly basis.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 8:19 am    Post subject:

Main gripe with Coach was that he relied on his vets too much over the younger guys. And played the old guys (Lebron, Melo, RW, AB) too many minutes. And his offense had a lot to be desired.

That being said I do understand there being personality dynamics involved, and this idea of wanting to be respectful to the guys who've been through it. There's such a nuance to coaching and it's not always just x's and o's.

Plus, dealing with RW must have been a pain haha. We had 2 years of a system that worked pretty well especially on the defense with our guards chasing. Then this year, our starting PG can't chase around screens, can't split through screens, gets lost on off ball defense. What a horror.

Anyway, I loved the defense in 2020. And I loved the championship.
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troy
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 1:15 pm    Post subject:

In the past 45 years, going all the way back to when Jerry West coached, the Lakers have had only 2 head coaches that they've kept for at least 5 seasons - Pat Riley and Phil Jackson.

Del Harris lasted 4 seasons. Vogel actually outlasted most other coaches, lasting 3 seasons.

Bottom line, the Lakers just don't keep head coaches around. Doing the math, the average tenure of a Los Angeles Laker head coach is just about 2 seasons.
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lakez34
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 1:24 pm    Post subject:

troy wrote:
In the past 45 years, going all the way back to when Jerry West coached, the Lakers have had only 2 head coaches that they've kept for at least 5 seasons - Pat Riley and Phil Jackson.

Del Harris lasted 4 seasons. Vogel actually outlasted most other coaches, lasting 3 seasons.

Bottom line, the Lakers just don't keep head coaches around. Doing the math, the average tenure of a Los Angeles Laker head coach is just about 2 seasons.


very interesting stat which I hadn't realized was the case. So either you're one of the best coaches ever, or you'll get dumped like any other coach in the nba. Pretty much makes sense, and I doubt much different from anywhere else in the league.
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troy
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 1:28 pm    Post subject:

lakez34 wrote:
troy wrote:
In the past 45 years, going all the way back to when Jerry West coached, the Lakers have had only 2 head coaches that they've kept for at least 5 seasons - Pat Riley and Phil Jackson.

Del Harris lasted 4 seasons. Vogel actually outlasted most other coaches, lasting 3 seasons.

Bottom line, the Lakers just don't keep head coaches around. Doing the math, the average tenure of a Los Angeles Laker head coach is just about 2 seasons.


very interesting stat which I hadn't realized was the case. So either you're one of the best coaches ever, or you'll get dumped like any other coach in the nba. Pretty much makes sense, and I doubt much different from anywhere else in the league.


But it is consistent with the Laker philosophy of all or nothing. Go big or go home. We don't invest in our players or our coaches. We are not patient in Laker land.
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lar9149
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 2:23 pm    Post subject:

The article does make a good point. It gave the example of the Indiana game where Lavert took advantage of the drop coverage the Lakers play on pick and roll.

I have seen the the videos on Spectrum Sportsnet back to 2020 and the drop coverage and as Vogel calls it "no man left behind" is Vogel's bread and better of his defense.

But yes playing small ball and doing this with Carmelo as the man in drop coverage is absurd. LBJ also but he has a better chance.

Indeed I think they should have played small ball and just switched on screens and double team the low post if the other team tries to drop it a ball man switched on a smaller player like Malik.

I really didn't see the Lakers adjust to this all year perhaps. The pick and roll defense was one of the worse I have seen.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 4:53 pm    Post subject:

Put together a garbage team that doesn't fit them blame the coach

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 4:53 pm    Post subject:

Double up
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 11:24 pm    Post subject:

Rob decided to completely changed what worked to be "All In" to go for the ring

Decision was made to place the highest priority on a Westbrook-led offense over defense. Oppositie strategy of the Suns, Warriors, Bucks, Celtics and others.

Decided to let the vets "ease" into the season that they were "certain" that they would be in the playoffs and wanted the team healthy in the "Second Season." Vets still got injured and they didn't have the basketball iq to make it work

Assumed that LBJ/AD/Westbrook would discuss/agree on how to be the most effective - many reports document that it was the opposite.

Hoped that Westbrook was absolutely hungry to win a ring - nah

As the article stated, Vogel wasn't "flexible enough" to adjust to these changes after having won a Ring with His System - lol
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 2:40 am    Post subject:

^
What's weird is I think the argument about flexibilty is applicable on defense. Or lack of flex. He didn't change his schemes and preferences on defense.

On offense though we made a lot of changes and we also changed lineups a lot. I am pretty sure we brought in Fizdale to help him run the small ball Miami program they ran with Wade/James/Bosh.

I dunno, I think while criticism is deserved, the biggest issue is that any blue print they had was only gonna work if AD/Bron/Westbrook gained some chemistry and stayed healthy. Only WB stayed healthy and he didn't get enough reps with AD/Bron to really be forced to make the changes needed (on D and O). We can nitpick about other stuff, but I fail to see how other coaches would have say won 45 games and secured a play off spot in the same circumstance. I mean, you're talking about the coach already in place with his previous championship winning players all thrown out of the window for Westbrook and the new one dimensional shooters.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 5:45 am    Post subject:

The leader of his team showed zero leadership. He had no one on the floor to hold guys accountable.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:55 am    Post subject:

think about giving Mike Dantoni a bunch of guys who can't make open 3s, that's why Vogel failed.
however, he failed to adjust to the roster as a coach, and that's on him as well.
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2022 8:50 pm    Post subject:

The roster sucked, no one was winning with that bunch. Vogel is not
a great coach but the bigger damage was the roster.

IMO, Westbrook is not going to win a championship in this league, be
that with the Lakers or elsewhere.. I’ve actually always said this
so it’s not new position. He’s not proven me wrong.

God knows maybe he gets to sit on a bench of a winning team, but that
aside, I don’t see it.
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 3:38 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
think about giving Mike Dantoni a bunch of guys who can't make open 3s, that's why Vogel failed.
however, he failed to adjust to the roster as a coach, and that's on him as well.


Quote:
According to The Athletic, "there was a strong sense that it was on Vogel to make the Westbrook experiment work, and the fact that it didn't led to questions about whether Westbrook had been put in a position to succeed." This logic doesn't hold up under any degree of scrutiny. The Lakers knew coming into the season that Westbrook was a poor shooter and lazy cutter and that he would therefore struggle when playing off of the ball next to LeBron James. They knew he was a poor defender as well, and asking him to slide into Vogel's defense-first culture was always going to be difficult. The Lakers, to put it simply, are blaming Vogel for doing things no other coach has been able to get him to do.
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 5:59 am    Post subject:

deal wrote:
The roster sucked, no one was winning with that bunch. Vogel is not
a great coach but the bigger damage was the roster.

IMO, Westbrook is not going to win a championship in this league, be
that with the Lakers or elsewhere.. I’ve actually always said this
so it’s not new position. He’s not proven me wrong.

God knows maybe he gets to sit on a bench of a winning team, but that
aside, I don’t see it.

Definitely not when sucking up 40+ mil in camp space.
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 12:26 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
think about giving Mike Dantoni a bunch of guys who can't make open 3s, that's why Vogel failed.
however, he failed to adjust to the roster as a coach, and that's on him as well.
Quote:
According to The Athletic, "there was a strong sense that it was on Vogel to make the Westbrook experiment work, and the fact that it didn't led to questions about whether Westbrook had been put in a position to succeed." This logic doesn't hold up under any degree of scrutiny. The Lakers knew coming into the season that Westbrook was a poor shooter and lazy cutter and that he would therefore struggle when playing off of the ball next to LeBron James. They knew he was a poor defender as well, and asking him to slide into Vogel's defense-first culture was always going to be difficult. The Lakers, to put it simply, are blaming Vogel for doing things no other coach has been able to get him to do.
Could any other Head Coaches (Lue, Snyder, Williams, Doc, Pop, etc) could have done much better - Nope.

Maybe somebody in the FO (or LBJ/AD) didn't like him when they placed this much aligned roster together. Vogel fought to keep Russ in the starting lineup while LBJ/AD and Russ rarely talked to each other (so said the reports)
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 4:00 am    Post subject:

^
I think Vogel came into the season with a chip on his shoulder. He was already disrespected by the extension. A 1 year extension for a coach that wins a title and in a second year has the #1 rated defense without a healthy AD. Up 2-1 on the Suns until AD goes out. I mean based on his first 2 years, 1 year extension was baloney.

Anyway so with the trade that gave him 10 vet minimum guys, 3 max players, and no real in between level guys like KCP, Caruso, KCP, Dennis, Trez etc. he essentially needed AD to be AD, Bron to be Bron and WB to WB all in terms of what their peak or close to peak was. And with AD injured, WB having declined and only wanting to play his way, the end result was disaster for him. Once he saw this, I think he knew the writing was on the wall so to speak. I think the last 30-40 games, Vogel coached knowing he was done, and that's a very tough position to be in.

I think a lot of those elite coaches wouldn't have stood up for any of that, and would have quit early on in the season when they saw the position they were being put in. Certainly I doubt they even accept a 1 year extension. I don't know if a better coach would have done better because I think a coach with higher standing (elite status) would have never allowed themselves to be in the position they were in to begin with.
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 11:07 am    Post subject:

I like Vogel. Wish him the best.
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 7:10 pm    Post subject:

Legacy wrote:
I like Vogel. Wish him the best.


I agree.

You can't fire all the players, so you fire the coach.

Pretty sure he wasn't dumb enough to want to lose the team's depth for Westbrook, that was simply a bad move he was left to clean up like a wet stool from a puppy on the carpet.
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