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dont_be_a_wuss
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 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | | To address what jb asked, most of the top 10 players in the world are under 30, and it's increasingly becoming a young man's game. They usually hit the ball further off the tee because they are in better shape and/or stronger. Another thing I'd say is that it can be harder to maintain your feel as you get older, particularly with putting and chipping. Experience is great and is a factor, and you can certainly still have a chance in your 40's compared to dudes in their 20's, which is unlike most sports, yes. But I think you have an advantage on Tour if you're in your 20's right now. |
Interesting. The only comparison I can think of as far as precision/patience and feel is pool. I used to play a lot and followed it some. Lotta the best guys were stomping fools into their 50s. |
It’s really more a matter of consistency in golf, where even on a putt and chip you’re involving a lot of muscle groups. I have days where my pitch/chip swing and putting stroke feel just like what I’m seeing, and days when they don’t. I’m better at peak with both of them now, but that peak comes and goes much more easily. |
I think I'm going to try it. Anyone know of a cheap place in So Cal where I can just putt around? |
Any golf course will have a practice putting green. You can go putt for free. |
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Scheffler so impressive again today.
He has now won 4 of his last 6 tournaments against some of the strongest fields in golf.
His form is incredible right now.
One thing I have noticed is just how good these guys are at saving pars consistently with putts of 6-10 feet. That is something that really separates these guys from the mortals.
The Masters is not only the best tournament, but also arguably the best overall coverage of any sporting event....loved their free streaming this year for instance.
I watched every shot of Scheffler's round for instance on this really cool set up, if you watch this you will see he was never really in any serious trouble the entire day and could have easily shot 3 or 4 strokes lower if a few putts had gone in.
https://www.masters.com/en_US/players/player_46046.html
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | Scheffler so impressive again today.
He has now won 4 of his last 6 tournaments against some of the strongest fields in golf.
His form is incredible right now.
One thing I have noticed is just how good these guys are at saving pars consistently with putts of 6-10 feet. That is something that really separates these guys from the mortals.
The Masters is not only the best tournament, but also arguably the best overall coverage of any sporting event....loved their free streaming this year for instance.
I watched every shot of Scheffler's round for instance on this really cool set up, if you watch this you will see he was never really in any serious trouble the entire day and could have easily shot 3 or 4 strokes lower if a few putts had gone in.
https://www.masters.com/en_US/players/player_46046.html |
What a run Scheffler is on, and it's so impressive. It's remarkably rare that any golfer wins 4 times out of 6 events entered, even during Tiger's heyday. I don't even think he had his A game this week and he's just getting it around so well that it didn't matter. I thought that the guys were battling the elements for the first 2 rounds and then in the third round, Scheffler was absolutely locked in for the first 11 holes. Then his swing came unglued a bit from there yesterday, but, as he showed today as well, he was able to pull out some big shots or putts when he needed to, none more so than on 18 yesterday with that 2nd shot after taking the unplayable. To recover with a 5 there was huge. Then today, he was looking iffy on the first couple of holes and then had a very difficult chip from well below the 3rd green. That chip-in really turned the tide. Pretty soon he was back up by 4 again.
I thought the next-biggest thing in the round was Scheffler's par save on 11. Smith birdied it, the toughest hole on the course. And Scheffler was standing over a rather lengthy par effort that, if missed, would have trimmed the margin back down to 2. By making it, he kept the lead at 3, and that psychologically feels like a lot more than 2, as 3 isn't within "two-shot swing range." Perhaps if the lead had only been 2, Smith doesn't try to attack the pin on 12, which is a no-no anyway. But perhaps he just felt like down by 3 with 7 to go, he had to make something happen. He rinses it, and it's basically tournament over after that.
My hat is off to Scheffler. He came up huge as a Ryder Cup rookie last fall, and he's taken that confidence into this season and his results have been incredible. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| I saw Byron Scott at Knollwood last Saturday. I didn't get to see him swing though. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyone watching the PGA? Pereira with a total choke job on 18 with a 1-stroke lead. Blocks his drive into the creek and then can't get it in for a 5 and takes a 6 to finish one shot out of a playoff between Justin Thomas (who shot 67 and began the day 7 shots back) and Zalatoris. It's a 3-hole aggregate playoff. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| JT birdied the first 2 holes and made a textbook par on 18 to hold off Zalatoris by 1 to win. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Good finish, sometimes slow and steady wins the race. Thomas was methodical and consistent.
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Good finish, sometimes slow and steady wins the race. Thomas was methodical and consistent. |
Zalatoris appeared to have the advantage on the first playoff hole, the par-5 13th, as he hit the green in two and had an eagle putt, while Thomas had to lay up from the rough. But his sublime wedge got him to 6 feet, and he made the putt to match Zalatoris' two-putt birdie. And then on the short par-4 17th, the second playoff hole, it was essentially reversed, with Thomas having the advantage after finding the green and having an eagle putt. Zalatoris made a nice pitch from where he was to about 8 feet, but unlike Thomas on the first hole, he couldn't make the putt to match Thomas' two-putt birdie. That was basically the difference. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Good finish, sometimes slow and steady wins the race. Thomas was methodical and consistent. |
Zalatoris appeared to have the advantage on the first playoff hole, the par-5 13th, as he hit the green in two and had an eagle putt, while Thomas had to lay up from the rough. But his sublime wedge got him to 6 feet, and he made the putt to match Zalatoris' two-putt birdie. And then on the short par-4 17th, the second playoff hole, it was essentially reversed, with Thomas having the advantage after finding the green and having an eagle putt. Zalatoris made a nice pitch from where he was to about 8 feet, but unlike Thomas on the first hole, he couldn't make the putt to match Thomas' two-putt birdie. That was basically the difference. |
I had a feeling that Periera might open the window for JT and Will after he came up a rotation short on the putt on 17. 18 is a tough hole and he had been showing the nerves all day. So when he went in the water on that ugly drive, I wasn’t surprised. But that he totally blew the up and down to stay in alive for the playoff was something else. The second that chip left the club face I knew he wad screwed. Even in the TV feed it was clear he was way too above the hole and hot to have a reasonable putt.
Once it went to the playoff, I knew JT was in the driver’s seat given his experience and the comeback day he was having. His poise on that shot coming out of the rough on the first playoff hole was nails. I’m so happy for him that he pulled it out. And I’m glad I’m not having Pereira’s evening dwelling on “what ifs”.
All in all, an exciting afternoon of golf and I live the 3 hole aggregate playoff format. It makes much more sense.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
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In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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^
Love the 3-hole aggregate, also. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Good. And don't let them back if The LIV fails.
PGA Tour suspends all players taking part in first LIV Golf tournament
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty sure those golfers that leave realize they might never play in PGA events ever again. The PGA Tour is under threat as an organization. If your talent starts to leave for a rival organization, your product is going to suffer. And the LIV tour has a huge pocketbook to lure players up and down the tour from amateur players who might join the PGA all the way up to seasoned vets that have won majors. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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I feel somewhat conflicted about this. Yeah, of course Saudi Arabia and the crown prince have a horrible history with human rights violations. But I think it's a slippery slope when we start to think about morality and what people should and shouldn't be doing. America, American citizens, and American corporations and entities have profited greatly off questionable morals and ethics and, yes, human rights violations. Where do you draw the line? So if a golfer is offered insane amounts of money just to join that series, it's easy for us to say "well, don't take the money, it's blood money." Phil is 51. It's not like he's really going to be playing too many PGA Tour events going forward. He's offered $200MM. DJ has a net worth of $50MM. He's offered $125MM just to join their series. He's more than doubling his net worth before he even hits a shot. For many golfers and for many in the media now, legacies are often defined by how many majors you win, anyway. With all due respect, almost nobody remembers who won the Heritage or something. Without looking it up, quick, who won the 2015 Heritage? Nobody cares. But people care about the majors. So if these LIV golfers can still play the majors, which aren't run by the Tour, and if they can make far more money at the same time, I think that's what they are considering. The PGA Tour will continue to lose players because of this, even the ones who don't get huge signing bonuses just to join. The purses are astronomical. That said, if a young guy (who hasn't already struck it rich in golf) can't make it on the LIV Tour and can't make a living there, he might be screwing himself out of having a career at all because there may not be the PGA Tour or the European Tour or perhaps even other Tours to fall back on.
I do think it's an interesting argument for litigation, as to the question of whether or not the players are independent contractors or if a Tour has the right to issue demands as to where players can play. As Ian Poulter said, he's played all around the world without incident up until now. He's played in Europe, played in Asia, etc, and it's not like one of the Tours said "hey, you can't go and do that." But now, they are. So I'll just call it for what it is: the PGA Tour's motivation here isn't about some moral ethics, that's just a bunch of hooey. They don't want this other rival tour to gain traction because they are considering their bottom line. In other words, it's about money. So they are being hypocrites for calling out players for "taking the money", as Jay Monahan specifically did. Save it with that crap. |
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | I feel somewhat conflicted about this. Yeah, of course Saudi Arabia and the crown prince have a horrible history with human rights violations. But I think it's a slippery slope when we start to think about morality and what people should and shouldn't be doing. America, American citizens, and American corporations and entities have profited greatly off questionable morals and ethics and, yes, human rights violations. Where do you draw the line? So if a golfer is offered insane amounts of money just to join that series, it's easy for us to say "well, don't take the money, it's blood money." Phil is 51. It's not like he's really going to be playing too many PGA Tour events going forward. He's offered $200MM. DJ has a net worth of $50MM. He's offered $125MM just to join their series. He's more than doubling his net worth before he even hits a shot. For many golfers and for many in the media now, legacies are often defined by how many majors you win, anyway. With all due respect, almost nobody remembers who won the Heritage or something. Without looking it up, quick, who won the 2015 Heritage? Nobody cares. But people care about the majors. So if these LIV golfers can still play the majors, which aren't run by the Tour, and if they can make far more money at the same time, I think that's what they are considering. The PGA Tour will continue to lose players because of this, even the ones who don't get huge signing bonuses just to join. The purses are astronomical. That said, if a young guy (who hasn't already struck it rich in golf) can't make it on the LIV Tour and can't make a living there, he might be screwing himself out of having a career at all because there may not be the PGA Tour or the European Tour or perhaps even other Tours to fall back on.
I do think it's an interesting argument for litigation, as to the question of whether or not the players are independent contractors or if a Tour has the right to issue demands as to where players can play. As Ian Poulter said, he's played all around the world without incident up until now. He's played in Europe, played in Asia, etc, and it's not like one of the Tours said "hey, you can't go and do that." But now, they are. So I'll just call it for what it is: the PGA Tour's motivation here isn't about some moral ethics, that's just a bunch of hooey. They don't want this other rival tour to gain traction because they are considering their bottom line. In other words, it's about money. So they are being hypocrites for calling out players for "taking the money", as Jay Monahan specifically did. Save it with that crap. |
Great post as usual.
I agree with you in that I am conflicted.
I love watching professional golf and think the PGA Tour has overall done a great job not just for the players, but also in promoting the sport and all the charitable endeavors.
That said, I do feel the players should have the right to be independent contractors. After all, as Ian Poulter pointed out, he has played in tours all over the world for decades now.
From the perspective of the PGA Tour though, in some ways I get it.
Having events in direct conflict with PGA Tour events will eventually have an impact as it will weaken fields and could impact corporate partnerships if (or when) that leads to TV ratings drops.
Right now guys like Justin Thomas and Rory McIlroy are talking tough, but I wonder if they will hold that line if we see mass defections to LIV Golf from Top 25 World Ranked Players.
The key will be what the organizers of the Major Tournaments decide. If they side with the PGA Tour and ban these guys from playing The Masters, US Open, The Open and the PGA Championship than that may be enough leverage to hold the line. At least in the short run.
Ultimately though, I think the landscape changed permanently today and that the LIV Tour will only grow stronger. We shall see how it all plays out.
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:50 am Post subject: |
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DJ and Bryson will be fine whatever happens, but the thing I’m wondering is the 48 players, no cut format. While it seems cool, let’s recall that a typical cut line in the PGA is top 70 scores plus ties. So more players are playing the weekend than the LIV Tour.
Now that they added Patrick Reed and Bryson, and I’m sure a few more bigger names will come, the LIV Tour will have to push out the lower ranked guys to fit the new guys in the field of 48. Did some of the players join LIV just to play the first weekend and get pushed out, sacrificing their tour eligibility in the process? |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Did some of the players join LIV just to play the first weekend and get pushed out, sacrificing their tour eligibility in the process? |
I think only 18 or 19 were PGA Tour players. So the question is, if you’re not a member of the PGA, do you still get punished?
Which then also applies to those who resigned. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Did some of the players join LIV just to play the first weekend and get pushed out, sacrificing their tour eligibility in the process? |
I think only 18 or 19 were PGA Tour players. So the question is, if you’re not a member of the PGA, do you still get punished?
Which then also applies to those who resigned. |
The statement released by the PGA said they will be banned from all PGA tour events, including the Korn Ferry tour and some others. I am thinking about some of the guys who may have been able to play the Korn Ferry and make up to the big PGA Tour in the future, but they lost lifetime eligibility to play 1 LIV event before being replaced by Patrick Reed. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | I feel somewhat conflicted about this. Yeah, of course Saudi Arabia and the crown prince have a horrible history with human rights violations. But I think it's a slippery slope when we start to think about morality and what people should and shouldn't be doing. America, American citizens, and American corporations and entities have profited greatly off questionable morals and ethics and, yes, human rights violations. Where do you draw the line? |
This is a specious analogy IMO. The PGA is not run by the American government, nor are member of the PGA in the government. Also, at least to my knowledge, no one in the PGA has been clearly tied to international murder.
| Quote: | | So if a golfer is offered insane amounts of money just to join that series, it's easy for us to say "well, don't take the money, it's blood money." Phil is 51. It's not like he's really going to be playing too many PGA Tour events going forward. He's offered $200MM. DJ has a net worth of $50MM. He's offered $125MM just to join their series. He's more than doubling his net worth before he even hits a shot. |
Well, in the case of Phil, he is clearly the illustration of why this is issue is so disgusting. He is literally on record as saying he doesn't care about the history of the Saudi Royal family, he wants to make an S-ton of money and screw over the PGA. That's a really disgusting position and I personally have lost all respect for the guy. As for the others, many of the players jumping over are at odds with the PGA itself, and are not only motivated by money, but by a desire to damage the PGA.
| Quote: | | For many golfers and for many in the media now, legacies are often defined by how many majors you win, anyway. With all due respect, almost nobody remembers who won the Heritage or something. Without looking it up, quick, who won the 2015 Heritage? Nobody cares. But people care about the majors. So if these LIV golfers can still play the majors, which aren't run by the Tour, and if they can make far more money at the same time, I think that's what they are considering. |
So let them play in the Majors. I'm simpky discussing the PGA's right to ban players who have taken aim at the PGA and have decided to move on, The PGA Tour will continue to lose players because of this, even the ones who don't get huge signing bonuses just to join. The purses are astronomical. That said, if a young guy (who hasn't already struck it rich in golf) can't make it on the LIV Tour and can't make a living there, he might be screwing himself out of having a career at all because there may not be the PGA Tour or the European Tour or perhaps even other Tours to fall back on.
| Quote: | | I do think it's an interesting argument for litigation, as to the question of whether or not the players are independent contractors or if a Tour has the right to issue demands as to where players can play. As Ian Poulter said, he's played all around the world without incident up until now. He's played in Europe, played in Asia, etc, and it's not like one of the Tours said "hey, you can't go and do that." But now, they are. So I'll just call it for what it is: the PGA Tour's motivation here isn't about some moral ethics, that's just a bunch of hooey. They don't want this other rival tour to gain traction because they are considering their bottom line. In other words, it's about money. So they are being hypocrites for calling out players for "taking the money", as Jay Monahan specifically did. Save it with that crap. |
I can't see where there is room for any legal recourse by the players, regardless of precedence. They are a private organization who has always set parameters for who can participate in their events. If they want to set restrictions and suspensions for players who have decided to head off in an effort to damage the PGA, I can't see how they'd have an argument for being allowed to return against the PGA's wishes.
Bottomline, the PGA will be fine. There are plenty of great players who are sticking to it, and as far as this fans goes, the guys leaving are mostly among the players I don't really like, and dfrom the list I have seen, there's no one I'm going to be truly disappointed to not see playing in anymore (I am not going to watch the LIV). Though I certainly know many other fans may feel quite differently.
And my position is not simply that the players making the move don't have that right. I just don't think that right includes the ability to return to the PGA if the league no longer wants them. The PGA certainly has the right to protect and conduct their organization in the way they see fit. The players can't have it both ways.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | I feel somewhat conflicted about this. Yeah, of course Saudi Arabia and the crown prince have a horrible history with human rights violations. But I think it's a slippery slope when we start to think about morality and what people should and shouldn't be doing. America, American citizens, and American corporations and entities have profited greatly off questionable morals and ethics and, yes, human rights violations. Where do you draw the line? So if a golfer is offered insane amounts of money just to join that series, it's easy for us to say "well, don't take the money, it's blood money." Phil is 51. It's not like he's really going to be playing too many PGA Tour events going forward. He's offered $200MM. DJ has a net worth of $50MM. He's offered $125MM just to join their series. He's more than doubling his net worth before he even hits a shot. For many golfers and for many in the media now, legacies are often defined by how many majors you win, anyway. With all due respect, almost nobody remembers who won the Heritage or something. Without looking it up, quick, who won the 2015 Heritage? Nobody cares. But people care about the majors. So if these LIV golfers can still play the majors, which aren't run by the Tour, and if they can make far more money at the same time, I think that's what they are considering. The PGA Tour will continue to lose players because of this, even the ones who don't get huge signing bonuses just to join. The purses are astronomical. That said, if a young guy (who hasn't already struck it rich in golf) can't make it on the LIV Tour and can't make a living there, he might be screwing himself out of having a career at all because there may not be the PGA Tour or the European Tour or perhaps even other Tours to fall back on.
I do think it's an interesting argument for litigation, as to the question of whether or not the players are independent contractors or if a Tour has the right to issue demands as to where players can play. As Ian Poulter said, he's played all around the world without incident up until now. He's played in Europe, played in Asia, etc, and it's not like one of the Tours said "hey, you can't go and do that." But now, they are. So I'll just call it for what it is: the PGA Tour's motivation here isn't about some moral ethics, that's just a bunch of hooey. They don't want this other rival tour to gain traction because they are considering their bottom line. In other words, it's about money. So they are being hypocrites for calling out players for "taking the money", as Jay Monahan specifically did. Save it with that crap. |
Great post as usual.
I agree with you in that I am conflicted.
I love watching professional golf and think the PGA Tour has overall done a great job not just for the players, but also in promoting the sport and all the charitable endeavors.
That said, I do feel the players should have the right to be independent contractors. After all, as Ian Poulter pointed out, he has played in tours all over the world for decades now.
From the perspective of the PGA Tour though, in some ways I get it.
Having events in direct conflict with PGA Tour events will eventually have an impact as it will weaken fields and could impact corporate partnerships if (or when) that leads to TV ratings drops.
Right now guys like Justin Thomas and Rory McIlroy are talking tough, but I wonder if they will hold that line if we see mass defections to LIV Golf from Top 25 World Ranked Players.
The key will be what the organizers of the Major Tournaments decide. If they side with the PGA Tour and ban these guys from playing The Masters, US Open, The Open and the PGA Championship than that may be enough leverage to hold the line. At least in the short run.
Ultimately though, I think the landscape changed permanently today and that the LIV Tour will only grow stronger. We shall see how it all plays out. |
I think the PGA Tour would open themselves up to lawsuits if they were found to be colluding to prevent players from a rival tournament from playing in the majors which they do not run. That being said they have the right to ban players that have defected to a rival tour which in the long term will be a threat to their own business model. |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:47 am Post subject: |
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PGA tour did this to themselves by not paying for guys travel, lodging or if they miss a cut. For just showing up guys at LIV are getting the equivalent of like a 25th-place finish. Just like Tennis, UFC and other individual sports, PGA gives far less than 50% of revenues to players. In the PGA’s case it’s like 30%. They also do a crap job at marketing the league. If Tiger isn’t playing nobody knows. PGA should have dominated during Covid but they didn’t take advantage.
Like ChickenStu said, this isn’t about morals. It’s entirely about money. If LIV starts taking the pipeline of prospects who get paid absolute crap by PGA, in addition to the top guys, they’re in real trouble. And if the big guys can still play majors, that’s all the matters to them. |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Also, the PGA guys who joined LIV said they’d play PGA events if there’s a scheduling conflict, which is what they’re contractually supposed to do. PGA wasn’t having it. As usual, lawyers will win here. |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16135
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Did some of the players join LIV just to play the first weekend and get pushed out, sacrificing their tour eligibility in the process? |
I think only 18 or 19 were PGA Tour players. So the question is, if you’re not a member of the PGA, do you still get punished?
Which then also applies to those who resigned. |
The statement released by the PGA said they will be banned from all PGA tour events, including the Korn Ferry tour and some others. I am thinking about some of the guys who may have been able to play the Korn Ferry and make up to the big PGA Tour in the future, but they lost lifetime eligibility to play 1 LIV event before being replaced by Patrick Reed. |
That doesn’t sound legal. |
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DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52653
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | PGA tour did this to themselves by not paying for guys travel, lodging or if they miss a cut. For just showing up guys at LIV are getting the equivalent of like a 25th-place finish. Just like Tennis, UFC and other individual sports, PGA gives far less than 50% of revenues to players. In the PGA’s case it’s like 30%. They also do a crap job at marketing the league. If Tiger isn’t playing nobody knows. PGA should have dominated during Covid but they didn’t take advantage.
Like ChickenStu said, this isn’t about morals. It’s entirely about money. If LIV starts taking the pipeline of prospects who get paid absolute crap by PGA, in addition to the top guys, they’re in real trouble. And if the big guys can still play majors, that’s all the matters to them. |
Sorry, the two aren't mutually exclusive. When Phil says he doesn't care what the the Royal Family has done, he just wants the money and to hurt the PGA, that's. is inherently a moral decision. His words exemplify the whole motivation for the rest of the guys.
And sure, the PGA may have done this to themselves, but they are completely within their rights to say, "OK, go play the LIV in order to defy us. But by doing so, you have clearly severed ties with us, and we are not interested in havubg you back.
Good luck to those that chose to go play in the LIV. I hope they make all that huge money they crave if that's their priority. But they can't act like they are unfairly called out on that decision.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52653
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Did some of the players join LIV just to play the first weekend and get pushed out, sacrificing their tour eligibility in the process? |
I think only 18 or 19 were PGA Tour players. So the question is, if you’re not a member of the PGA, do you still get punished?
Which then also applies to those who resigned. |
The statement released by the PGA said they will be banned from all PGA tour events, including the Korn Ferry tour and some others. I am thinking about some of the guys who may have been able to play the Korn Ferry and make up to the big PGA Tour in the future, but they lost lifetime eligibility to play 1 LIV event before being replaced by Patrick Reed. |
That doesn’t sound legal. |
How is it not? The PGA is a private entity.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16135
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Did some of the players join LIV just to play the first weekend and get pushed out, sacrificing their tour eligibility in the process? |
I think only 18 or 19 were PGA Tour players. So the question is, if you’re not a member of the PGA, do you still get punished?
Which then also applies to those who resigned. |
The statement released by the PGA said they will be banned from all PGA tour events, including the Korn Ferry tour and some others. I am thinking about some of the guys who may have been able to play the Korn Ferry and make up to the big PGA Tour in the future, but they lost lifetime eligibility to play 1 LIV event before being replaced by Patrick Reed. |
That doesn’t sound legal. |
How is it not? The PGA is a private entity. |
The PGA being a private entity would be irrelevant to the legal question of an Antitrust suit.
The PGA is not protected by an Antitrust exemption like other sports leagues: NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, etc.
| Quote: | One distinguishing sports law factor in this controversy is that PGA Tour golfers are independent contractors, unlike NFL and other major leagues’ athletes, who are both employees of their teams and union members. As union members, employment conditions are agreed on through collective bargaining and, of benefit to their leagues, exempt from antitrust scrutiny.
Tour golfers, in contrast, could pursue antitrust litigation against the tour, and its sponsors, partner courses and other affiliated businesses. They have actionable claims by virtue of the PGA Tour barring them from playing for LIV Golf. Any form of punishment could also trigger an antitrust lawsuit. Players could bring additional claims regarding contractual obligations. They could maintain the tour arbitrarily applied its own rules, particularly if exemptions have been generously granted in the past.
In a lawsuit, the golfers would argue that the PGA Tour is a monopsony in that it exercises too much control over the buying of services offered by the world’s elite golfers. They would further assert that both golfers and golf consumers are harmed, in that non-tour events would feature inferior competition if tour golfers can’t play in them. LIV would be able to bring analogous claims against the PGA Tour, alleging harm to golf consumers, a crucial point since antitrust law is most concerned with protecting consumer interests.
The PGA Tour would have several defenses, and could start by insisting that golfers contractually accepted tour rules and have benefited from the circuit’s promotion of their careers. In essence, these golfers choose to join the PGA Tour. Like membership in any organization, there are known advantages and disadvantages. The tour could also claim its organization of tournaments has excelled in terms of generating opportunities for golfers and attracting viewers and sponsors, and that its system promotes, not repels, economic competition.
https://www.sportico.com/law/analysis/2022/pga-tour-lawsuit-liv-golf-1234678121/ |
| Quote: | Greg Norman, CEO of the rival league, wasted no time decrying the decision, calling the Tour “an illegal monopoly” that is “anti-golfer, anti-fan, and anti-competitive.” If you smell an antitrust suit — or multiple such filings — you’re not alone.
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Craig Seebald is a partner and antitrust specialist with Vinson & Elkins, an international law firm.
We asked him to tease out the most likely scenarios and some of the legal questions surrounding them.
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HOW DOES ANTITRUST LAW WORK?
Antitrust law is a sizable topic, but it mostly boils down to two concerns, Seebald says: monopolization and conspiracy. Broadly defined, the first is when an entity uses unfair practices to gain or maintain a stranglehold on a market. The second is when two or more entities work together to thwart competition. Any cases filed against the Tour would rest on one or both of those fronts.
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HOW WILL COURTS RULE?
Impossible to know, but Seebald sees the short- and long-term landscape in different lights. “My feeling is that if they ban guys, [those players] will have a claim that won’t be dismissed quickly,” Seebald says. “Whether a couple of years down the road the players will ultimately win depends on a lot of things and is a bit more uncertain.”
https://golf.com/news/pga-tour-liv-golf-legal-battle-looming/ |
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