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levon
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 Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Vucevic isn't really a compelling fit on this team. I don't know, I don't like him as a player. You can't pay a guy 28 million and sit him in crunch time. I think there are much more valuable bigs out there in this team construction for a fraction of the cost.
And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | Vucevic isn't really a compelling fit on this team. I don't know, I don't like him as a player. You can't pay a guy 28 million and sit him in crunch time. I think there are much more valuable bigs out there in this team construction for a fraction of the cost.
And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
Disagree. For 2 FRPs, you get a stretch big and a true big 3 in DROZ who can generate shots. That's a win now move that the Lakers would pounce on but I highly doubt the Bulls give up both pieces for just Russ/2FRPS.
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epic_
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | Vucevic isn't really a compelling fit on this team. I don't know, I don't like him as a player. You can't pay a guy 28 million and sit him in crunch time. I think there are much more valuable bigs out there in this team construction for a fraction of the cost.
And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
From what I learned from 2020-22, unless that center is elite in the category of Joker, I'd rather have 2 rim protecting bigs who provide vertical gravity to pair up with AD and Bron instead of more offensively polished bigs who lack the other 2 skills.
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| epic_ wrote: | | levon wrote: | Vucevic isn't really a compelling fit on this team. I don't know, I don't like him as a player. You can't pay a guy 28 million and sit him in crunch time. I think there are much more valuable bigs out there in this team construction for a fraction of the cost.
And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
From what I learned from 2020-22, unless that center is elite in the category of Joker, I'd rather have 2 rim protecting bigs who provide vertical gravity to pair up with AD and Bron instead of more offensively polished bigs who lack the other 2 skills. |
Yeah exactly. It's too much to have a highly paid offensive generator at the 5 when your two best players are arguably most effective offensively from that position. This coupled with the fact that bigs are the easiest to find bargains on for the value they provide makes it even tougher to pay Vucevic 28 million a year. |
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | levon wrote: | Vucevic isn't really a compelling fit on this team. I don't know, I don't like him as a player. You can't pay a guy 28 million and sit him in crunch time. I think there are much more valuable bigs out there in this team construction for a fraction of the cost.
And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
Disagree. For 2 FRPs, you get a stretch big and a true big 3 in DROZ who can generate shots. That's a win now move that the Lakers would pounce on but I highly doubt the Bulls give up both pieces for just Russ/2FRPS. |
His offensive impact has been declining each of the last four seasons. Last season he shot 31% from 3.
If we want an approximation of a skilled floor spacing big, sign Kevin Love for the room exception or something. |
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Rubin
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | hydrohead wrote: | Zach Lowe on his pod with Howard Beck brought up the potential of a Russ plus 2 FRP for DeRozan and Vucevic of the Bulls are a mess by the deadline.
Can see the Bulls wanting to cash in on the aging DeRozan and do a slight rebuild with Lavine locked in. |
Umm, yes please. But of course won't happen. I'd give up more for that duo (pick swaps). |
Not sure how Vooch holds up defensively, but a lineup of Bev/Deroz/Bron/AD/Vooch is among the league’s best. Find a competent big wing who can close games without being a liability and you have a real contender. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | levon wrote: | Vucevic isn't really a compelling fit on this team. I don't know, I don't like him as a player. You can't pay a guy 28 million and sit him in crunch time. I think there are much more valuable bigs out there in this team construction for a fraction of the cost.
And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
Disagree. For 2 FRPs, you get a stretch big and a true big 3 in DROZ who can generate shots. That's a win now move that the Lakers would pounce on but I highly doubt the Bulls give up both pieces for just Russ/2FRPS. |
His offensive impact has been declining each of the last four seasons. Last season he shot 31% from 3.
If we want an approximation of a skilled floor spacing big, sign Kevin Love for the room exception or something. |
Don't care. I'd do it for DROZ. Not sure how Vuc's name got thrown into this as his and DROZ's salary is a lot to match.
But say we somehow got both, I wouldn't extend Vuc per se but he would help this team out tremendously this year. Wouldn't finish games but he would add a lot of offensive versatility and punch, and he DROZ would lessen LBJ's creating load.
But again, not going to really argue about a hypothetical that is so highly unlikely to happen.
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | levon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | levon wrote: | Vucevic isn't really a compelling fit on this team. I don't know, I don't like him as a player. You can't pay a guy 28 million and sit him in crunch time. I think there are much more valuable bigs out there in this team construction for a fraction of the cost.
And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
Disagree. For 2 FRPs, you get a stretch big and a true big 3 in DROZ who can generate shots. That's a win now move that the Lakers would pounce on but I highly doubt the Bulls give up both pieces for just Russ/2FRPS. |
His offensive impact has been declining each of the last four seasons. Last season he shot 31% from 3.
If we want an approximation of a skilled floor spacing big, sign Kevin Love for the room exception or something. |
Don't care. I'd do it for DROZ. Not sure how Vuc's name got thrown into this as his and DROZ's salary is a lot to match.
But say we somehow got both, I wouldn't extend Vuc per se but he would help this team out tremendously this year. Wouldn't finish games but he would add a lot of offensive versatility and punch, and he DROZ would lessen LBJ's creating load.
But again, not going to really argue about a hypothetical that is so highly unlikely to happen. |
Perhaps the deal to be made for Derozan was last offseason involving 2 picks, one of them being the less valuable 2022, but Derozan for the 2027 and 2029 picks is just not commensurate value for this FO. It's just not. Reportedly they were only willing to trade those for Mitchell (lol) or Kyrie. That's just a different tier of player that they're aiming for, fair or not.
And Demar's not a 3nD guy. He's a volume midrange scorer with about neutral to below average defense. It's not like there's a perfect roster fit to overcome the lack of value compared to someone like Kyrie (I don't want to sign or trade for Kyrie either, fwiw)
Last edited by levon on Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
Yep. He had a career year with the Bulls, but it would be foolish to blow the FRPs on him. He really wouldn't be a good fit, either. He was a non-defender even playing for Popovich.
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epic_
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | levon wrote: | | And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
Yep. He had a career year with the Bulls, but it would be foolish to blow the FRPs on him. He really wouldn't be a good fit, either. He was a non-defender even playing for Popovich. |
I thought people didnt like that he's a mid range guy who doesn't really space the floor.
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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You know, if you do the exercise of going through every potentially volatile NBA team that might become sellers mid-season (or even in the offseason and going into next season) and picking players worth trading two distant firsts for (with Russ or without, considering the ability to absorb into cap or trade mid-salary players next year), the list is really really short.
And all of those players come with major question marks regarding age, salary, size, etc. This whole time I've been thinking of Russ as the main thing limiting our market, but there's also just not that large of a market at that price point, for any team. |
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | Vasashi, let me get this straight about absorbing into our cap, if we send out Jones, Reaves, Max and the ‘23 FRP, we can take back $35m player? But if it’s DeRozan, we can keep one of Reaves or Max or ‘23 FRP? Either scenario we’re hard cap which means no tpMLE or any exceptions? |
DeRozan wouldn’t be a S&t next summer. He already has an established contract @28.6m. So you’re right about a team being hard capped when a S&t’d player hits their books, but that wouldn’t apply to DeRozan next summer. It only applied to him during the summer of 2021, when he was a free agent and could only get to a team via S&t that didn’t have the cap space to just take him in without SA’s help in delivering in at the price point he wanted.
If you look at our books next summer with the current projections, you’ll notice we have the space to take his deal completely in and can do so as long as we don’t breach 134.1m in team salary (ie 134m salary cap + 100k threshold) after we absorb his deal (either partially or completely) with our cap space. Since we project to have about 30.5m in space even with a Damien player opt in, MaxC, Reaves and our 2023 draft class (1st pick swap + 2 2nd rounders), we don’t have to offload anyone.
The only players it could potentially cost us are our all our UFAs (Russ, PatB, Walker, Nunn, TB, TBJr, JTA, Schro and Gabriel) except for 2 of TB, TBJr, JTA, Schro or Gabriel (since their capholds are so small). We would have to renounce the other player rights tho, so that we can’t use their bird rights as a loophole to have them resign on bigger deals once we use cap space to absorb DeRozan into.
So the only way we can keep our free agents AFTER we use cap space to trade for DeRozan is via vet min deals (~2m) or the roomMLE (~6m). That’s the only way we get DeRozan using cap space while still keeping our free agents. To be thorough tho, if Damien opts out, he in addition to any of our other FAs (except for Reaves) can get at most the rMLE in a new deal. Reaves however as a RFA can sign another team’s offer sheet and get that amount if we match it. As an early bird player, if we keep his rights on our books, we can also offer up to about 11m on a new deal (see how we treated THT last summer for a comparison).
Projected 2023/24 Offseason Laker Cap Sheet on a 134m Salary Cap
1. Bron 46.9m (ie 35% max based off 134m cap)
2. AD 40.6m
3. Damien (player option) 2.6m
4. MaxC 1.7m
5. 2023 1st pick swap w/NO ~3m caphold (#20-30 overall pick)
6. Reaves RFA QO 2.1m (could be higher if he meets “starter criteria”)
7-8. Either 2 capholds of TB, TBJr, JTA, Schro or Gabriel ~4m
9-10. rookie min deals for our 2 2023 2nd rounders 2.2m
11-12. 2 incomplete roster (IR) charges 2.2m
= 105.4m in team salary
= 28.6m in cap space
So we could take DeRozan completely into our cap space, while still keeping Damien, MaxC, Reaves, all our 2023 draft picks and 2 of TB, TBJr, JTA, Schro, Gabriel (as long as those dudes don’t mind playing on slightly higher than vet min deals; Gabriel can sign for Reaves type money on a reup since he’s early bird).
Hope that answers your Q bro.
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Last edited by vasashi17+ on Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| epic_ wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | levon wrote: | | And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
Yep. He had a career year with the Bulls, but it would be foolish to blow the FRPs on him. He really wouldn't be a good fit, either. He was a non-defender even playing for Popovich. |
I thought people didnt like that he's a mid range guy who doesn't really space the floor. |
That's true, too. I never really saw how he would fit with Lebron and Davis on the offensive end. As I've said, I really doubt that we were ever close to making a deal for him, unless maybe if he was really willing to give us a discount.
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The other weird part about Derozan: he's played the 4 his last few years. So if you stick with AD at the 4, DeRozan would have to play 2? Or Lebron would have to play the 1 or 5? Not a natural fit at all. |
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anth2000
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to be a buzzkill but why all the DeRozan talk?
He's not coming..
Also, regardless of what the reports were from last offseason, he wasn't coming here, the Spurs weren't going to deal with the Lakers in a sign and trade.....and he wasn't signing for the minimum which is all we had to offer him. Instead he signed for $81 million for 3 years..
I feel some of that gets lost in the "we could have had DeRozan" talk....
We did settle for Westbrook because that was the dumb trade the FO had chosen...but, as I mentioned above, the Spurs were likely not going to do a sign and trade... and as a free agent, he was not coming for the vet min. He took a much larger contract... |
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ocho
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The independent law firm probe into Boston Celtics coach Ime Udoka found that he used crude language in his dialogue with a female subordinate prior to the start of an improper workplace relationship with the woman, an element that significantly factored into his one-year suspension, sources told ESPN.
Those investigative findings -- which described verbiage on Udoka's part that was deemed especially concerning coming from a workplace superior -- contribute to what is likely a difficult pathway back to his reinstatement as Celtics coach in 2023, sources told ESPN. |
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| anth2000 wrote: | | Sorry to be a buzzkill but why all the DeRozan talk? |
Vasashi's new agenda |
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epic_
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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 Sorry, that wording just made me laugh.
But I think it's fair to question things in the past.
I don't agree with some of the "facts" but it's forum talk. And it's only been a couple of pages of it, so I think it's fair game to talk about DDR.
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anth2000
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RI Laker
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | levon wrote: | Vucevic isn't really a compelling fit on this team. I don't know, I don't like him as a player. You can't pay a guy 28 million and sit him in crunch time. I think there are much more valuable bigs out there in this team construction for a fraction of the cost.
And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
Disagree. For 2 FRPs, you get a stretch big and a true big 3 in DROZ who can generate shots. That's a win now move that the Lakers would pounce on but I highly doubt the Bulls give up both pieces for just Russ/2FRPS. |
This is a SUPERIOR trade than the previous rumored trades involving our 2 FRP's (mainly the Jazz or Indy trades). |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | epic_ wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | levon wrote: | | And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
Yep. He had a career year with the Bulls, but it would be foolish to blow the FRPs on him. He really wouldn't be a good fit, either. He was a non-defender even playing for Popovich. |
I thought people didnt like that he's a mid range guy who doesn't really space the floor. |
That's true, too. I never really saw how he would fit with Lebron and Davis on the offensive end. As I've said, I really doubt that we were ever close to making a deal for him, unless maybe if he was really willing to give us a discount. |
Derozan doesn't fit, and I question whether we could get him for two FRPs.
As it looks like we might not be able to make a trade, a lot of people seem to be imagining our assets have a greater value, rather than a lesser value. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | You know, if you do the exercise of going through every potentially volatile NBA team that might become sellers mid-season (or even in the offseason and going into next season) and picking players worth trading two distant firsts for (with Russ or without, considering the ability to absorb into cap or trade mid-salary players next year), the list is really really short.
And all of those players come with major question marks regarding age, salary, size, etc. This whole time I've been thinking of Russ as the main thing limiting our market, but there's also just not that large of a market at that price point, for any team. |
We don’t have a lot to offer.
Hield/Turner may be the upper level of what we can get, and we might not even be able to get that much.
But there will always be a group on LG who fantacize about teams giving us way more in a trade than we can reasonably expect to get. They will come up with three- and four-team trades where we win the trade big and everyone else loses the trade. |
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Balto
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Could you add Hornets into a Bulls trade that sent Ball to the Hornets to play(when ever that is) with his brother? Would "Make Sense" in the media/fans eyes haha
Hornets send Rozier to the Bulls while Lakers take Howard and DeRozan. Hornets get Russ and Ball. Picks to Bulls |
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Pacers fans
If the team can get a grab bag of 2nd round picks for Myles and Buddy, they should do it immediately.
Keeping these guys on the roster to start the year is bad for many reasons. The longer we keep these two, the more games we win, dropping our odds in the lottery. Every game they are here, there's a chance one of them gets hurt, and loses all trade value. One or both guys could have a bad start to the year, and teams aren't going to up their offer for a slumping player.
Holding onto them now is betting on everything going perfectly. Both guys stay healthy and play well, a team (or multiple teams) emerges early in the year that wants these guys. All for what, a 2026 1st round pick from a good team. Who cares? Take what you can get and move on!
https://www.pacersdigest.com/forum/the-digest/indiana-pacers/3701404-is-myles-turner-worth-it-or-do-our-other-big-men-need-to-step-up-their-game?p=3702953#post3702953 |
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ArminNBA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | epic_ wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | levon wrote: | | And Derozan's not worth two firsts for the Lakers. Their "one shot" won't be spent on him. |
Yep. He had a career year with the Bulls, but it would be foolish to blow the FRPs on him. He really wouldn't be a good fit, either. He was a non-defender even playing for Popovich. |
I thought people didnt like that he's a mid range guy who doesn't really space the floor. |
That's true, too. I never really saw how he would fit with Lebron and Davis on the offensive end. As I've said, I really doubt that we were ever close to making a deal for him, unless maybe if he was really willing to give us a discount. |
Derozan doesn't fit, and I question whether we could get him for two FRPs.
As it looks like we might not be able to make a trade, a lot of people seem to be imagining our assets have a greater value, rather than a lesser value. |
According to ESPN's Dave McMenamin and Brian Windhorst, the Lakers were only willing to offer the 2027 and 2029 FRPs for Kyrie Irving and Donovan Mitchell.
This tells us how the Lakers value these picks (as ridiculous as it may be). It also indicates, in my view, that they won't trade these picks for an assortment of bench players (even if solid role players would compliment LeBron and AD much better than Russ). Maybe it's because the Lakers value 2023 cap space over role players and a better shot this season? Who knows.
Pelinka's Media Day comments on the FRPs also indicate, in my view, that the Lakers are looking for a home-run and not a combo of singles and doubles: “But let me also be clear: teams can’t trade all their picks every year. You can only trade every other year. You have one shot to make a trade with multiple picks, so if you make that trade it has to be the right one. So we’re being very thoughtful around the decisions on when and how to use draft capital in a way that can improve our roster.”
But here's the thing, the Lakers cannot get a player of Mitchell or Kyrie's caliber with those two draft picks. As I said, it's ridiculous. I've also seen Lakers fans suggest SGA, but those two picks are simply not enough to beat out teams with a significant supply of assets (e.g., the Knicks).
However, there's one unique scenario that may play into the Lakers' fortunes: Bradley Beal.
Bradley Beal has a true no-trade clause and a 15% trade kicker. According to Zach Lowe, his 5-year, $251 million contract, at his age and production and stature, is considered undesirable by most teams. Beal also has a great relationship with Ted Leonsis and could likely demand a trade in an undramatic, professional manner with their mutual interests in consideration.
What needs to happen? The Wizards need to be horrible. Beal needs to demand a trade to the Lakers and to the Lakers only (his no-trade clause is super significant here). And then, the Lakers have to hope that, instead of the Wizards FO hoping to convince Beal to stay and retool, the Wizards would prefer the Lakers 2027 and 2029 FRPs + getting off Beal's 5-year contract (Russ' expiring becomes valuable in this particular situation, given Beal's contract size) + the prospect of tanking. |
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