he 3-team Trade That Would Make the Los Angeles Lakers Contenders

 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:10 pm    Post subject: he 3-team Trade That Would Make the Los Angeles Lakers Contenders

Hey All,

Latest @BleacherReport The 3-team Trade That Would Make the Los Angeles Lakers Contenders - an answer to @ZachLowe_NBA, who asked (probably rhetorically) "What's the trade" that gets LAL back into contention?
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10056401-the-3-team-trade-that-would-make-the-los-angeles-lakers-contenders

Cheers,

EP
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: he 3-team Trade That Would Make the Los Angeles Lakers Contenders

emplay wrote:
Hey All,

Latest @BleacherReport The 3-team Trade That Would Make the Los Angeles Lakers Contenders - an answer to @ZachLowe_NBA, who asked (probably rhetorically) "What's the trade" that gets LAL back into contention?
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10056401-the-3-team-trade-that-would-make-the-los-angeles-lakers-contenders

Cheers,

EP


Great article, Pincus. Any rumblings of Charlotte softening on the idea of trading Rozier?

Does Indy still plan on moving Turner with a successful season underway?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:30 am    Post subject:

what u think Vas?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:47 am    Post subject:

Nice article. I'm trying to figure out what's going on in the heads of the various factions mentioned.

If the Nets are to be influenced by Durant's POV, why would a sensitive-of-his-legacy player like KD endorse Kyrie going out to help Lebron's legacy (his main competition during his career)? I mean, Lebron already won with Kyrie, and KD so far has "failed" with him. If Kyrie helps Lebron succeed again, it looks even worse for Durant.

With that said, why should the Nets care what Durant wants any more for major decisions like this? He signed a long term contract, so there's nothing he can do if he doesn't like a deal.

With THAT said, why would the Nets do this deal? They are now playing better and the season is young... the disdain towards Kyrie's attitude and saving $100m sounds enticing, but in the end, they want to to compete while one of the all time greats in KD is still highly effective despite getting up there in age (and having a history of a major injury). To trade for Nunn/Bev/1st rounder(s) is the same as giving up on the season altogether.

In any case, from the Lakers' perspective, picking up Bojan/Burke/Noel/Kyrie would be an improvement for sure, but moreso in terms of a better offense instead of defense. I mean, on paper our defense does improve sense we'd be only losing three small guards, but the overall greatest need for the Lakers is improving defense at the forward positions with size.

Noel at 6'10" with his athleticism is "OK", but he is wiry thin, which diminishes what he can contribute against some larger opponents somewhat. That's not to mention his complete lack of offensive skills. And by the way... I thought Noel hated Team Klutch and tried to sue the agency. Would Lebron and Co. endorse acquiring Noel with that kind of history in the background?

If this deal were to go through, we'd have sent out almost all of our tradable assets of value that we are willing to let go (keep Awesome Reaves, please!). We couldn't chase after better fits, at least in the near term, to improve the roster.

Our offense isn't terrible when playing the right way (attack the paint, limit TOs, and no more 7+ lazy three attempts, Lebron). To really be contenders like we were in 2020, our focus should be locked in on getting bigger defensively to gimp the opponent's FG%, grab more rebounds, and disrupt more passing lanes.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:29 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
what u think Vas?


I like it cause I believe in using Russ’s 47m expiring deal to acquire up to 59m of “cap space” this year vs having only 26-36m of actual cap space next summer when Russ’s deal is no longer on our books.

In fact E’s trade proposal has it where we can acquire about 82m in incoming salary by aggregating and trading Russ/Pat/Nunn’s deals together. Again that’s 30m in cap space as expiring deals coming off our books (and their bird rights renounced) next summer vs more than 2.5xs that amount in cap if traded this year before the trade deadline.

Noel is not a dealbreaker, but that’s the one part of this trade that, like @Joe, I doubt happens since he had beef with Rich Paul / Klutch and actually filed a lawsuit against them. But I would most definitely target a starting center and although Ky has a lot of off court baggage, I do like his on court bball potential even tho he’s a minus on defense this year. I’m sure in Ham’s system with AD, Ky will turn up on that side of the ball. Hopefully he doesn’t turn up on his Twitter/Gram tho.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:20 pm    Post subject:

Not interested in acquiring 33yr old and 31yr old...plus the Lakers 3pt shooting deficiency is such that they need at least two more, not just one addition.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:31 pm    Post subject:

Kyrie is toxic.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:11 am    Post subject:

I'll give the replies a look later today but also:

Latest @SportsBizClass
Understanding the Value of Bird Rights - Why are teams sometimes limited in what they can pay to keep their own free agents? (Or why Malik Monk is on the Sacramento Kings and not the LA Lakers?)
https://www.sportsbusinessclassroom.com/understanding-the-value-of-bird-rights/
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: he 3-team Trade That Would Make the Los Angeles Lakers Contenders

rock0100 wrote:
emplay wrote:
Hey All,

Latest @BleacherReport The 3-team Trade That Would Make the Los Angeles Lakers Contenders - an answer to @ZachLowe_NBA, who asked (probably rhetorically) "What's the trade" that gets LAL back into contention?
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10056401-the-3-team-trade-that-would-make-the-los-angeles-lakers-contenders

Cheers,

EP


Great article, Pincus. Any rumblings of Charlotte softening on the idea of trading Rozier?

---- at SOME point you think the Hornets would embrace tanking but Mitch is so old school. No buzz, yet, that Rozier is available outside of value back (they offered Rozier in a Donovan Mitchell package to UTAH)

Does Indy still plan on moving Turner with a successful season underway?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:03 pm    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:
Nice article. I'm trying to figure out what's going on in the heads of the various factions mentioned.

If the Nets are to be influenced by Durant's POV, why would a sensitive-of-his-legacy player like KD endorse Kyrie going out to help Lebron's legacy (his main competition during his career)? I mean, Lebron already won with Kyrie, and KD so far has "failed" with him. If Kyrie helps Lebron succeed again, it looks even worse for Durant.

With that said, why should the Nets care what Durant wants any more for major decisions like this? He signed a long term contract, so there's nothing he can do if he doesn't like a deal.

With THAT said, why would the Nets do this deal? They are now playing better and the season is young... the disdain towards Kyrie's attitude and saving $100m sounds enticing, but in the end, they want to to compete while one of the all time greats in KD is still highly effective despite getting up there in age (and having a history of a major injury). To trade for Nunn/Bev/1st rounder(s) is the same as giving up on the season altogether.

In any case, from the Lakers' perspective, picking up Bojan/Burke/Noel/Kyrie would be an improvement for sure, but moreso in terms of a better offense instead of defense. I mean, on paper our defense does improve sense we'd be only losing three small guards, but the overall greatest need for the Lakers is improving defense at the forward positions with size.

Noel at 6'10" with his athleticism is "OK", but he is wiry thin, which diminishes what he can contribute against some larger opponents somewhat. That's not to mention his complete lack of offensive skills. And by the way... I thought Noel hated Team Klutch and tried to sue the agency. Would Lebron and Co. endorse acquiring Noel with that kind of history in the background?

If this deal were to go through, we'd have sent out almost all of our tradable assets of value that we are willing to let go (keep Awesome Reaves, please!). We couldn't chase after better fits, at least in the near term, to improve the roster.

Our offense isn't terrible when playing the right way (attack the paint, limit TOs, and no more 7+ lazy three attempts, Lebron). To really be contenders like we were in 2020, our focus should be locked in on getting bigger defensively to gimp the opponent's FG%, grab more rebounds, and disrupt more passing lanes.



The Nets may or may not - but there's a serious lack of trust organizationally in Kyrie - they're not keeping him - if they did the non-Russ version, they save $100 mil and gain flexibility towards putting a better roster around KD - provided KD signs off on it.

Or maybe they value Russ over Kyrie because of what a mess Kyrie has been for them.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:24 pm    Post subject:

JamaalWilkes wrote:
Kyrie is toxic.


Based on the team's recent decision-making, aren't you arguing why it's more likely to happen??!?!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:30 am    Post subject:

"That's the best "realistic" trade for the Lakers to vault back into contention."

If the Nets, with KD's past demands/efforts to obtain Kyrie, don't trust Kyrie - why would the Lakers trade for a PT (albeit with uber skills) player with NO guarantee that he would play all the games that he is healthy - never mind for the next season

"Start with Irving, whose basketball presence in Brooklyn thus far has fallen way short of expectations. Irving is massively talented in the extreme. But outside of playing with LeBron in LeBron's prime -- a major asterisk -- Irving has been a perennial negative for almost every single team he's been on. Literally."
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kyrie-irving-is-back-and-heres-why-history-tells-us-thats-actually-bad-news-for-the-nets/


"But Irving’s status as the darling of basketball aesthetes everywhere has obscured his overall contributions to winning basketball — even in the rare cases when he’s on the floor. On a per-possession basis, Irving has cracked the top 25 of FiveThirtyEight’s regular-season Total RAPTOR metric just once since arriving in Brooklyn for the 2019-20 season, and in his career he’s reached that benchmark fewer times (four) than he’s fallen outside of it (five). For a player whose observable skill set has long confounded the advanced metrics, it’s fitting that RAPTOR sees Irving’s impact differently than the conventional wisdom does:

Kyrie Irving has been a defensive sieve
Regular-season RAPTOR metrics for Kyrie Irving by NBA season, 2013-14 to 2021-22, with rankings among qualified players

The most obvious culprit for Irving’s less-impressive-than-expected numbers here is his defense. Listed at 6-foot-2, 195 pounds, Irving has always been an easy target for opposing offenses to hunt, and he’s been a net-negative on that end for all but one year of his career during the player-tracking era. Though his defensive impact has trended upward with each successive season in Brooklyn, his numbers remain woefully below-average for a player of his caliber and position: Last season, Irving’s negative-0.9 defensive RAPTOR ranked 41st out of 72 point guards who played at least 1,000 regular-season minutes, and he’s been an above-average defender at his position in just one season of his 12-year career.

It’s a credit to Irving’s improvement on that end that he no longer ranks among the very worst defenders in the league — his 2016-17 defensive performance ranks 13th-worst among the 652 qualifying guard-seasons since 2013-14 — but he still lags behind his peers in that regard. Compare that to the oft-maligned defense of Warriors guard Stephen Curry, whom RAPTOR has seen as a net-positive defender in all but three years since 2013-14.

But while Irving’s defense has usually left something to be desired, it’s hardly the sole reason for this apparent disconnect between his reputation and observable impact on the game of basketball. (After all, nobody has ever accused Kyrie of being a lockdown defender.) Even on offense, as you’ll notice from the table above, Irving has never consistently ascended to the league’s upper echelon during his professional career.

While he’s finished among the top five a couple of times (2014-15 and 2018-19), Irving’s best season by offensive RAPTOR — 2016-17, in which he recorded a plus-6.3 and sniffed a spot in the coveted 50-40-90 club — ranks as just the 29th-best per-possession offensive performance by a point guard since 2013-14 and the 37th-best overall, while his 2020-21 campaign (which saw him actually record that 50-40-90) ranks 38th and 54th, respectively. Curry (seven times), Chris Paul (five), James Harden (five), Damian Lillard (four), Russell Westbrook (twice), Trae Young (twice), Kyle Lowry (once) and even Isaiah Thomas (once) all posted more impactful offensive seasons than Irving during this time period.

So why doesn’t Irving’s offensive effectiveness line up with what our eyes tell us? A big reason may lie in the divergence between Irving’s traditional numbers and his on-court impact. Take Player Efficiency Rating, for example, a per-minute metric that measures a player’s box score production, as opposed to on-off plus/minus, which measures how a player’s team does when he’s in the game versus not. Irving tends to perform better in PER than in on-off statistics, as shown in the chart below:

As a corollary, Irving’s assist rate isn't in the same ballpark of distributors like Harden and Paul, nor does he move off the ball like Curry. The very attributes that have drawn Kyrie comparisons to dribbling maestros like Rod Strickland1 and Allen Iverson may also be the ones that keep him from entering the realm of all-time offensive greats. As my colleague Jared Dubin wrote last spring, Irving’s ball-stopping tendencies on offense came to a head against the Boston Celtics during the 2022 playoffs, where his approach of seeking out contested shots against the rangy Boston defense helped stymie any rhythm Brooklyn was hoping to build.

Yes, Brooklyn’s offensive rating of 115.0 with Irving on the floor would have ranked No. 3 as a seasonlong metric in 2021-22, but therein lies the Kyrie conundrum. As a negative defender, you have to hope for an otherworldly offensive explosion from Irving and company to offset the likely defensive drop-off that comes with his presence — and even a rate of 115.0 was not good enough. As it stands, Irving is not the scorer or distributor who can supercharge a team past its glaring defensive deficiencies — and a Brooklyn roster construction that is, shall we say, not exactly defensively inclined. And this year, it’s probably not a coincidence that the Nets are defending much better while Irving has been off the floor. (Even counting the 153-point avalanche the Nets surrendered to the Sacramento Kings Tuesday night, with Irving still suspended.)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/kyrie-irvings-stats-arent-worth-the-drama/


Other players don't move the needle that makes this Lakers a legitimate title-contending team

Need to go far beyond "realistic" trades to Pau Gasol-like trade that will transform this team. With all the unexpected problems with Mavs to Dubs in the Western Conference with Trailblazers to Kings to Jazz now among the top 6 teams in the West - there are/will be many opportunities to improve the team. Rob's job is to always be prepared and quickly aware of opportunities when they present themselves.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:42 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
"That's the best "realistic" trade for the Lakers to vault back into contention."

If the Nets, with KD's past demands/efforts to obtain Kyrie, don't trust Kyrie - why would the Lakers trade for a PT (albeit with uber skills) player with NO guarantee that he would play all the games that he is healthy - never mind for the next season

"Start with Irving, whose basketball presence in Brooklyn thus far has fallen way short of expectations. Irving is massively talented in the extreme. But outside of playing with LeBron in LeBron's prime -- a major asterisk -- Irving has been a perennial negative for almost every single team he's been on. Literally."
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kyrie-irving-is-back-and-heres-why-history-tells-us-thats-actually-bad-news-for-the-nets/


"But Irving’s status as the darling of basketball aesthetes everywhere has obscured his overall contributions to winning basketball — even in the rare cases when he’s on the floor. On a per-possession basis, Irving has cracked the top 25 of FiveThirtyEight’s regular-season Total RAPTOR metric just once since arriving in Brooklyn for the 2019-20 season, and in his career he’s reached that benchmark fewer times (four) than he’s fallen outside of it (five). For a player whose observable skill set has long confounded the advanced metrics, it’s fitting that RAPTOR sees Irving’s impact differently than the conventional wisdom does:

Kyrie Irving has been a defensive sieve
Regular-season RAPTOR metrics for Kyrie Irving by NBA season, 2013-14 to 2021-22, with rankings among qualified players

The most obvious culprit for Irving’s less-impressive-than-expected numbers here is his defense. Listed at 6-foot-2, 195 pounds, Irving has always been an easy target for opposing offenses to hunt, and he’s been a net-negative on that end for all but one year of his career during the player-tracking era. Though his defensive impact has trended upward with each successive season in Brooklyn, his numbers remain woefully below-average for a player of his caliber and position: Last season, Irving’s negative-0.9 defensive RAPTOR ranked 41st out of 72 point guards who played at least 1,000 regular-season minutes, and he’s been an above-average defender at his position in just one season of his 12-year career.

It’s a credit to Irving’s improvement on that end that he no longer ranks among the very worst defenders in the league — his 2016-17 defensive performance ranks 13th-worst among the 652 qualifying guard-seasons since 2013-14 — but he still lags behind his peers in that regard. Compare that to the oft-maligned defense of Warriors guard Stephen Curry, whom RAPTOR has seen as a net-positive defender in all but three years since 2013-14.

But while Irving’s defense has usually left something to be desired, it’s hardly the sole reason for this apparent disconnect between his reputation and observable impact on the game of basketball. (After all, nobody has ever accused Kyrie of being a lockdown defender.) Even on offense, as you’ll notice from the table above, Irving has never consistently ascended to the league’s upper echelon during his professional career.

While he’s finished among the top five a couple of times (2014-15 and 2018-19), Irving’s best season by offensive RAPTOR — 2016-17, in which he recorded a plus-6.3 and sniffed a spot in the coveted 50-40-90 club — ranks as just the 29th-best per-possession offensive performance by a point guard since 2013-14 and the 37th-best overall, while his 2020-21 campaign (which saw him actually record that 50-40-90) ranks 38th and 54th, respectively. Curry (seven times), Chris Paul (five), James Harden (five), Damian Lillard (four), Russell Westbrook (twice), Trae Young (twice), Kyle Lowry (once) and even Isaiah Thomas (once) all posted more impactful offensive seasons than Irving during this time period.

So why doesn’t Irving’s offensive effectiveness line up with what our eyes tell us? A big reason may lie in the divergence between Irving’s traditional numbers and his on-court impact. Take Player Efficiency Rating, for example, a per-minute metric that measures a player’s box score production, as opposed to on-off plus/minus, which measures how a player’s team does when he’s in the game versus not. Irving tends to perform better in PER than in on-off statistics, as shown in the chart below:

As a corollary, Irving’s assist rate isn't in the same ballpark of distributors like Harden and Paul, nor does he move off the ball like Curry. The very attributes that have drawn Kyrie comparisons to dribbling maestros like Rod Strickland1 and Allen Iverson may also be the ones that keep him from entering the realm of all-time offensive greats. As my colleague Jared Dubin wrote last spring, Irving’s ball-stopping tendencies on offense came to a head against the Boston Celtics during the 2022 playoffs, where his approach of seeking out contested shots against the rangy Boston defense helped stymie any rhythm Brooklyn was hoping to build.

Yes, Brooklyn’s offensive rating of 115.0 with Irving on the floor would have ranked No. 3 as a seasonlong metric in 2021-22, but therein lies the Kyrie conundrum. As a negative defender, you have to hope for an otherworldly offensive explosion from Irving and company to offset the likely defensive drop-off that comes with his presence — and even a rate of 115.0 was not good enough. As it stands, Irving is not the scorer or distributor who can supercharge a team past its glaring defensive deficiencies — and a Brooklyn roster construction that is, shall we say, not exactly defensively inclined. And this year, it’s probably not a coincidence that the Nets are defending much better while Irving has been off the floor. (Even counting the 153-point avalanche the Nets surrendered to the Sacramento Kings Tuesday night, with Irving still suspended.)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/kyrie-irvings-stats-arent-worth-the-drama/


Other players don't move the needle that makes this Lakers a legitimate title-contending team

Need to go far beyond "realistic" trades to Pau Gasol-like trade that will transform this team. With all the unexpected problems with Mavs to Dubs in the Western Conference with Trailblazers to Kings to Jazz now among the top 6 teams in the West - there are/will be many opportunities to improve the team. Rob's job is to always be prepared and quickly aware of opportunities when they present themselves.


Thanks for the emboldened and the rest. Super detailed analysis. I almost called you "professor" after your detailed exegisis...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:12 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
"That's the best "realistic" trade for the Lakers to vault back into contention."

If the Nets, with KD's past demands/efforts to obtain Kyrie, don't trust Kyrie - why would the Lakers trade for a PT (albeit with uber skills) player with NO guarantee that he would play all the games that he is healthy - never mind for the next season

"Start with Irving, whose basketball presence in Brooklyn thus far has fallen way short of expectations. Irving is massively talented in the extreme. But outside of playing with LeBron in LeBron's prime -- a major asterisk -- Irving has been a perennial negative for almost every single team he's been on. Literally."
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kyrie-irving-is-back-and-heres-why-history-tells-us-thats-actually-bad-news-for-the-nets/


"But Irving’s status as the darling of basketball aesthetes everywhere has obscured his overall contributions to winning basketball — even in the rare cases when he’s on the floor. On a per-possession basis, Irving has cracked the top 25 of FiveThirtyEight’s regular-season Total RAPTOR metric just once since arriving in Brooklyn for the 2019-20 season, and in his career he’s reached that benchmark fewer times (four) than he’s fallen outside of it (five). For a player whose observable skill set has long confounded the advanced metrics, it’s fitting that RAPTOR sees Irving’s impact differently than the conventional wisdom does:

“Kyrie Irving has been a defensive sieve
Regular-season RAPTOR metrics for Kyrie Irving by NBA season, 2013-14 to 2021-22, with rankings among qualified players

The most obvious culprit for Irving’s less-impressive-than-expected numbers here is his defense. Listed at 6-foot-2, 195 pounds, Irving has always been an easy target for opposing offenses to hunt, and he’s been a net-negative on that end for all but one year of his career during the player-tracking era. Though his defensive impact has trended upward with each successive season in Brooklyn, his numbers remain woefully below-average for a player of his caliber and position: Last season, Irving’s negative-0.9 defensive RAPTOR ranked 41st out of 72 point guards who played at least 1,000 regular-season minutes, and he’s been an above-average defender at his position in just one season of his 12-year career.

It’s a credit to Irving’s improvement on that end that he no longer ranks among the very worst defenders in the league — his 2016-17 defensive performance ranks 13th-worst among the 652 qualifying guard-seasons since 2013-14 — but he still lags behind his peers in that regard. Compare that to the oft-maligned defense of Warriors guard Stephen Curry, whom RAPTOR has seen as a net-positive defender in all but three years since 2013-14.

But while Irving’s defense has usually left something to be desired, it’s hardly the sole reason for this apparent disconnect between his reputation and observable impact on the game of basketball. (After all, nobody has ever accused Kyrie of being a lockdown defender.) Even on offense, as you’ll notice from the table above, Irving has never consistently ascended to the league’s upper echelon during his professional career.

While he’s finished among the top five a couple of times (2014-15 and 2018-19), Irving’s best season by offensive RAPTOR — 2016-17, in which he recorded a plus-6.3 and sniffed a spot in the coveted 50-40-90 club — ranks as just the 29th-best per-possession offensive performance by a point guard since 2013-14 and the 37th-best overall, while his 2020-21 campaign (which saw him actually record that 50-40-90) ranks 38th and 54th, respectively. Curry (seven times), Chris Paul (five), James Harden (five), Damian Lillard (four), Russell Westbrook (twice), Trae Young (twice), Kyle Lowry (once) and even Isaiah Thomas (once) all posted more impactful offensive seasons than Irving during this time period.

So why doesn’t Irving’s offensive effectiveness line up with what our eyes tell us? A big reason may lie in the divergence between Irving’s traditional numbers and his on-court impact. Take Player Efficiency Rating, for example, a per-minute metric that measures a player’s box score production, as opposed to on-off plus/minus, which measures how a player’s team does when he’s in the game versus not. Irving tends to perform better in PER than in on-off statistics, as shown in the chart below:

As a corollary, Irving’s assist rate isn't in the same ballpark of distributors like Harden and Paul, nor does he move off the ball like Curry. The very attributes that have drawn Kyrie comparisons to dribbling maestros like Rod Strickland1 and Allen Iverson may also be the ones that keep him from entering the realm of all-time offensive greats. As my colleague Jared Dubin wrote last spring, Irving’s ball-stopping tendencies on offense came to a head against the Boston Celtics during the 2022 playoffs, where his approach of seeking out contested shots against the rangy Boston defense helped stymie any rhythm Brooklyn was hoping to build.

Yes, Brooklyn’s offensive rating of 115.0 with Irving on the floor would have ranked No. 3 as a seasonlong metric in 2021-22, but therein lies the Kyrie conundrum. As a negative defender, you have to hope for an otherworldly offensive explosion from Irving and company to offset the likely defensive drop-off that comes with his presence — and even a rate of 115.0 was not good enough. As it stands, Irving is not the scorer or distributor who can supercharge a team past its glaring defensive deficiencies — and a Brooklyn roster construction that is, shall we say, not exactly defensively inclined. And this year, it’s probably not a coincidence that the Nets are defending much better while Irving has been off the floor. (Even counting the 153-point avalanche the Nets surrendered to the Sacramento Kings Tuesday night, with Irving still suspended.)"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/kyrie-irvings-stats-arent-worth-the-drama/


“Other players don't move the needle that makes this Lakers a legitimate title-contending team

Need to go far beyond "realistic" trades to Pau Gasol-like trade that will transform this team. With all the unexpected problems with Mavs to Dubs in the Western Conference with Trailblazers to Kings to Jazz now among the top 6 teams in the West - there are/will be many opportunities to improve the team. Rob's job is to always be prepared and quickly aware of opportunities when they present themselves.”
Thanks for the emboldened and the rest. Super detailed analysis. I almost called you "professor" after your detailed exegisis...
There are many other much more qualified to be thought of “Professors” than myself, starting with DB

I’m “smart enough” to rely/trust/learn/share from well-educated sources that have spent a great deal of time doing a “deep dive” into important factors that needs to be integrated (if not, already) within Rob’s decision process

Happy Thanksgiving Everybody
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daytripper
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:48 am    Post subject:

I still stand by the belief they need to add at least 3 rock solid roleplayers and preferably 1-2 that can shoot and at least one with plus size. The template was already set a few years ago but they blew that team up.

I wouldn't tie up so much cap in a player like Kyrie that is just way too mercurial and someone I doubt even likes basketball all that much.
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:51 pm    Post subject:

daytripper wrote:
I still stand by the belief they need to add at least 3 rock solid roleplayers and preferably 1-2 that can shoot and at least one with plus size. The template was already set a few years ago but they blew that team up.

I wouldn't tie up so much cap in a player like Kyrie that is just way too mercurial and someone I doubt even likes basketball all that much.
Supposedly, we already have guards on their respective teams in the past have a track record of having a good shooting percentage - plus we have Skywalker and Reeves.

Gabriel and Bryant are the best with the salary that we can pay have size plus they bring energy.

With top teams having unexpected issues and improbable teams on among the top 6 teams in the West, there will be opportunities for those that are patient

AD, LBJ, Bryant and Jones bring some length

Sooner or later, Matt Ryan will be getting another chance. People will question his defensive abilities but not his hustle plus the other guards/SFs are not doing a much better job
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Palin
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:49 am    Post subject:

That kind of trade makes sense because with injury issues with Lbj and AD you need that 3rd star which makes sense, you always have 1-2 punch unless both lbj and ad out. But you also need depth. Getting players like Bogdanovic and Burks instead of useless players like Pat and Nunn improves your depth and also fix your overcrowded guard rotation.

Kyrie/DS
Reaves/Walker
LBJ/Burks
AD/Bogdanovic
Bryant/Noel

Thats good roster with star power and depth wise
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Hanging from Rafters
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:13 am    Post subject:

Palin wrote:
That kind of trade makes sense because with injury issues with Lbj and AD you need that 3rd star which makes sense, you always have 1-2 punch unless both lbj and ad out. But you also need depth. Getting players like Bogdanovic and Burks instead of useless players like Pat and Nunn improves your depth and also fix your overcrowded guard rotation.

Kyrie/DS
Reaves/Walker
LBJ/Burks
AD/Bogdanovic
Bryant/Noel

Thats good roster with star power and depth wise


Didn’t like it at first due to age and lack of size, C/PF a concern with only AD/LBJ as impact players above 6’7” (hopefully Bryant becomes but not there yet) so still don’t love it…but the offensive firepower is undeniable. The trade may make the Lakers contenders despite front court limitations.

I think your roster rotation would be different though since Burks/TBjr, would project to be more effective than Bryant/Noel and the abundance of skilled 6’4”-6’6” players would necessitate getting more of them in the line up since bigger players are fewer on the team.

AD/Bryant
LBJ/Bog
Burks/TBjr
Walker/Reeves
Ky/DS

Also…I know we love Reeves, he’s really won us over with his play…but can’t start him with better players at his position, plus the Lakers may be aiming for a smaller cap hold since it would be higher if Reeves start > 40 games. He will still get major minutes but Walker and Burk will start over Reeves.
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unleasHell
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:13 pm    Post subject:

Palin wrote:
That kind of trade makes sense because with injury issues with Lbj and AD you need that 3rd star which makes sense, you always have 1-2 punch unless both lbj and ad out. But you also need depth. Getting players like Bogdanovic and Burks instead of useless players like Pat and Nunn improves your depth and also fix your overcrowded guard rotation.

Kyrie/DS
Reaves/Walker
LBJ/Burks
AD/Bogdanovic
Bryant/Noel

That's good roster with star power and depth wise


I like trade, but I can't help thinking Teams are gonna want Reeves or Walker over Beverly, and I would hate to lose either of them...
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pio2u
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:18 am    Post subject:

unleasHell wrote:
Palin wrote:
That kind of trade makes sense because with injury issues with Lbj and AD you need that 3rd star which makes sense, you always have 1-2 punch unless both lbj and ad out. But you also need depth. Getting players like Bogdanovic and Burks instead of useless players like Pat and Nunn improves your depth and also fix your overcrowded guard rotation.

Kyrie/DS
Reaves/Walker
LBJ/Burks
AD/Bogdanovic
Bryant/Noel

That's good roster with star power and depth wise


I like trade, but I can't help thinking Teams are gonna want Reeves or Walker over Beverly, and I would hate to lose either of them...

BINGO!
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:44 pm    Post subject:

pio2u wrote:
unleasHell wrote:
Palin wrote:
That kind of trade makes sense because with injury issues with LBJ and AD you need that 3rd star which makes sense, you always have 1-2 punch unless both LBJ and AD are out. But you also need depth. Getting players like Bogdanovic and Burks instead of useless players like Pat and Nunn improves your depth and also fix your overcrowded guard rotation.

Kyrie/DS
Reaves/Walker
LBJ/Burks
AD/Bogdanovic
Bryant/Noel

That's good roster with star power and depth wise
I like trade, but I can't help thinking Teams are gonna want Reeves or Walker over Beverly, and I would hate to lose either of them...

BINGO!
Interesting

Bogdanovic is 6'7" hence doesn't have the length to guard opposing PFs

Kyrie is a PT player (in mind, spirit and availability) that doesn't play good defense, though he is uber skilled offensive player.
"So why doesn’t Irving’s offensive effectiveness line up with what our eyes tell us? A big reason may lie in the divergence between Irving’s traditional numbers and his on-court impact. Take Player Efficiency Rating, for example, a per-minute metric that measures a player’s box score production, as opposed to on-off plus/minus, which measures how a player’s team does when he’s in the game versus not."
"Irving’s assist rate isn't in the same ballpark of distributors like Harden and Paul, nor does he move off the ball like Curry. The very attributes that have drawn Kyrie comparisons to dribbling maestros like Rod Strickland1 and Allen Iverson may also be the ones that keep him from entering the realm of all-time offensive greats. "
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/kyrie-irvings-stats-arent-worth-the-drama/
~ there is/many reasons why Kyrie is not in any great demand, if any, around the league
~ sending out players for the drama, unpredictability, undependability, unnecessary madness for a player that is entirely dependent on his offensive magic to merit being on the court for a title-contending team

Alec Burks is a good bench player (see how Thibbs is using him) and not afraid of any crunch time moments. He's another version of SkyWalker4 and Reeves - good but doesn't move the needle type player

Noel is a player similar to Damian Jones, so why trade for a type of player that we already have on the team?

PatBev brings defensive intensity that is always needed in Ham's game plan. PatBev, Schroeder, Walker, Reeves and LBJ hopefully will consistently bring the defensive "Hammer" during crunch time.

It is a good question on how much "rope" Ham can afford to allow Nunn play to get his timing back after missing the entire last season. He came from the Miami Heat, so he is tough and can play - similar story with Tony Brown
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Hanging from Rafters
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:16 pm    Post subject:

I’m starting to realize that the Lakers won’t succeed until Jeanie and Rob are gone…both are un-appropriate for the legacy and prestige of the historic franchise.
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:09 pm    Post subject:

Hanging from Rafters wrote:
I’m starting to realize that the Lakers won’t succeed until Jeanie and Rob are gone…both are un-appropriate for the legacy and prestige of the historic franchise.
”Un-Appropriate” - lol!

Respectfully asked what you specifically want to happen

You want to get Kyrie - lol. Headaches and his value is totally dependent on him being available and producing at GOAT level since he plays no D
https://global.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35127414/westbrook-hield-turner-five-questions-answer-proposed-lakers-pacers-trade

Trade for Turner? He is injury prone and might be just a rental for a few months and is looking for a long term contract, do you see him as a fixture for years to come - nope

Buddy Hield, a great sharp shooter but terrible on D. Do you see him as a fixture on the Lakers for the next few years - nope

Next year’s FA class will be filled with many outstanding players available for those teams that have the financial/CAP ability to secure the players

Jeanie has spent $$$$$$$$$ and doesn’t have the deep/unlimited pocket books of the richest NBA owners (https://www.audacy.com/national/sports/gallery/the-richest-nba-team-owners#9--joshua-harris--philadelphia-76ers-br----br----cklu0jc2e002b3h74efs8nfur), yet their roster is the 6th highest (https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/)

Have they gone for “home run” and expensive acquisitions - yes (LBJ, AD and Westbrook)

Has Jeanie/Rob’s only focus is rings, not being competitive - yes

Are they perfect - NOPE

Would you want the team to be a play thing for a multi-billionaire, like many other teams that have won far less rings, if any, than the Lakers - who recently won a ring

Just curious
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:20 pm    Post subject:

I think the trade makes sense for the Lakers, if the team can stomach taking Irving. We come off like bandits in this proposition so of course Lakers fans would love it, again, as long as they can stomach taking Irving.

The pitch to the Pistons and Nets seems much more dubious. We are getting a big return for two picks and salary ballast. I don't see a way to divide our assets between the Pistons and Nets that would make me confident this deal would interest them both.

It's just another space filler anyway.
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