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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject:



1:22 of this video is an example of how to exploit Ice with a pick & pop on the Side PnR. Dragic drags, Frye pops out, and the weak side guard dive cuts to a very open space in the middle if his man rotates to the popping big.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:16 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:


1:22 of this video is an example of how to exploit Ice with a pick & pop on the Side PnR. Dragic drags, Frye pops out, and the weak side guard dive cuts to a very open space in the middle if his man rotates to the popping big.


yeah good call - I was imagining the side pnr with julius and didn't think he had the range to be a threat on the pop, but you're right, it does open up a driving lane for him.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject:

Why didn't the Suns keep Frye?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject:

CBaller8 wrote:
Why didn't the Suns keep Frye?


because the magic paid him an insane amount of money, which would have prevented the suns from keeping bledsoe.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:04 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:


1:22 of this video is an example of how to exploit Ice with a pick & pop on the Side PnR. Dragic drags, Frye pops out, and the weak side guard dive cuts to a very open space in the middle if his man rotates to the popping big.


yeah good call - I was imagining the side pnr with julius and didn't think he had the range to be a threat on the pop, but you're right, it does open up a driving lane for him.


I had a pretty amazing summer from a coaching standpoint, part of which was being able to go to the Nike Clinic in Las Vegas on someone else's dime. Mark Few (Gonzaga) talked about this exact scenario (how to beat ICE on Side PnR) for about 10 minutes in his presentation. Learned a ton that weekend.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:


1:22 of this video is an example of how to exploit Ice with a pick & pop on the Side PnR. Dragic drags, Frye pops out, and the weak side guard dive cuts to a very open space in the middle if his man rotates to the popping big.


yeah good call - I was imagining the side pnr with julius and didn't think he had the range to be a threat on the pop, but you're right, it does open up a driving lane for him.


I had a pretty amazing summer from a coaching standpoint, part of which was being able to go to the Nike Clinic in Las Vegas on someone else's dime. Mark Few (Gonzaga) talked about this exact scenario (how to beat ICE on Side PnR) for about 10 minutes in his presentation. Learned a ton that weekend.


Wow that sounds like a great experience. Color me jealous.

Are you a full time coach or do you have another job?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:56 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:


1:22 of this video is an example of how to exploit Ice with a pick & pop on the Side PnR. Dragic drags, Frye pops out, and the weak side guard dive cuts to a very open space in the middle if his man rotates to the popping big.


yeah good call - I was imagining the side pnr with julius and didn't think he had the range to be a threat on the pop, but you're right, it does open up a driving lane for him.


I had a pretty amazing summer from a coaching standpoint, part of which was being able to go to the Nike Clinic in Las Vegas on someone else's dime. Mark Few (Gonzaga) talked about this exact scenario (how to beat ICE on Side PnR) for about 10 minutes in his presentation. Learned a ton that weekend.


Wow that sounds like a great experience. Color me jealous.

Are you a full time coach or do you have another job?


I was a high school head coach at a small school in LA for the last 3 years, while in the process of piece-mealing together my degree and teaching credential. Over the summer I coached some travel ball (11U), helped run a skills camp for kids, and did some individual tutoring.

I recently stepped down from the high school job to help my wife start her business. I'll be back coaching at the HS level in the next year or two, and I'll continue to nomadically coach when I can in the meantime.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:


1:22 of this video is an example of how to exploit Ice with a pick & pop on the Side PnR. Dragic drags, Frye pops out, and the weak side guard dive cuts to a very open space in the middle if his man rotates to the popping big.


yeah good call - I was imagining the side pnr with julius and didn't think he had the range to be a threat on the pop, but you're right, it does open up a driving lane for him.


I had a pretty amazing summer from a coaching standpoint, part of which was being able to go to the Nike Clinic in Las Vegas on someone else's dime. Mark Few (Gonzaga) talked about this exact scenario (how to beat ICE on Side PnR) for about 10 minutes in his presentation. Learned a ton that weekend.


Wow that sounds like a great experience. Color me jealous.

Are you a full time coach or do you have another job?


I was a high school head coach at a small school in LA for the last 3 years, while in the process of piece-mealing together my degree and teaching credential. Over the summer I coached some travel ball (11U), helped run a skills camp for kids, and did some individual tutoring.

I recently stepped down from the high school job to help my wife start her business. I'll be back coaching at the HS level in the next year or two, and I'll continue to nomadically coach when I can in the meantime.


Few is both a smart and a great guy at the same time. Rare to find. Glad you got to meet him.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:37 am    Post subject:

My favorite play of the Blazers game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ZtXsr1o6g#t=472

All five of the young Lakers working their tails off on the defensive end, and covering for each other, which is a credit to the coaching staff. That second pick and roll that the Blazers ran going in the opposite direction is really hard to guard, and Ed Davis, played it beautifully, showing why he's so valuable as a rim protector. And then Lin to Randle for the jumper on the other end was just the icing on the cake.

Outside of Lillard, the Blazers were talent deficient tonight, but the Lakers still didn't let them anything easy. They're still forcing a lot of turnovers though good positional defense and active hands, but aren't overcommitting and giving up free open shots. I'm surprised how quickly they have cut down on the reckless gambles on D. It makes me wonder if the plan had been the same all along and that some players had to be reined back, or if there had been some deliberate changes made between the Utah and Phoenix game. Hope they can keep it up when the talent level steps up.

The offense needs to play to our strengths of the personnel
On offense, there were still some things I didn't like. Most notably, those instances where Wes and Ellington came off a floppy or pin down action to the wing and then got sent a screener to run P&R, or just threw it into the post and stood there. Wes especially, should not be trying to create as a ball handler.

Instead they should have Wes or Ellington come out on a zipper cut (popping out from the block to the top) to receive the ball and hold there. That would free up Lin to come down into the floppy action, and when he comes out to the wing to get the ball back from Wes, he's in position to be the pick and roll ball handler, something he's our most dangerous option as. Wes can then drift back to the wing to spot up for 3, a place where he's historically shot a good percentage.

This is the action made famous by Pop's Spurs and copied around the league. Check out the first half of this clip (some sweet weakside screening too):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpeIur9bv9o

I know Byron likes having both guards on the floor have a chance to initiate, but it only really makes sense to do that if Kobe or maybe Clarkson is the two instead of Wes / Wayne. Otherwise you are just choosing the lesser ballhandler over your point guard- instead of a passing/shooting/driving threat, you have more of only a shooting threat.

The Lakers occasionally have the PG go down into the block as one of the screeners and has a big guy pop out to be the guy to deliver the pass to the player popping out. But that makes the PG the secondary option to pop out after his screen instead of the primary, and he doesn't get the chance to utilize the double screen off the run, or it means you have both of the wings setting screens rather than being immediate shooting threats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ZtXsr1o6g#t=290
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ZtXsr1o6g#t=339
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ZtXsr1o6g#t=369

Based on where Ellington takes the handoff, the primary option becomes a long 2 rather than the 3s and layups in the Spurs video.


Last edited by fiendishoc on Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:18 am; edited 6 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:01 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Few is both a smart and a great guy at the same time. Rare to find. Glad you got to meet him.


He certainly was. Greg McDermott (Creighton, Doug's dad) had a great presentation and was very generous with his time as well. There were about 8 presentations over the three days that totally kicked ass, with a few snoozers mixed in.

The main presenter was Bobby Knight, which was a dream come true. I usually don't like the presentations from most big names, because I feel like they mail it in, but he actually had the most informative presentation of anyone. Hysterically funny too.

And you've never lived until you've seen a poor, innocent sign language translator that's barely out of college trying to interpret for Bobby Knight. "You (bleep) Catholics having been screwing us for 500 years." Her =
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:16 am    Post subject:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:14 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc,

Julius' game last night was awfully similar to the Griffin highlights you posted

Except Julius has the coast-to-coast-game that I'm not sure BG has
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:20 am    Post subject:

22 wrote:
fiendishoc,

Julius' game last night was awfully similar to the Griffin highlights you posted

Except Julius has the coast-to-coast-game that I'm not sure BG has


Julius is already a better passer than Blake. He has really good court vision. Blake is more explosive (and probably always will be) and has a better jumper, but that jumper took him 5 years in the NBA to develop so there's no reason Julius' shot won't develop similarly. Where Blake is more explosive to finish at the rim, Julius is a bit more creative using different angles to get around size.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:25 am    Post subject:

He's getting there

Blake is pretty good going coast to coast. And he's a good passer as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject:

Randle has better footwork than Griffin.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
22 wrote:
fiendishoc,

Julius' game last night was awfully similar to the Griffin highlights you posted

Except Julius has the coast-to-coast-game that I'm not sure BG has


Julius is already a better passer than Blake. He has really good court vision. Blake is more explosive (and probably always will be) and has a better jumper, but that jumper took him 5 years in the NBA to develop so there's no reason Julius' shot won't develop similarly. Where Blake is more explosive to finish at the rim, Julius is a bit more creative using different angles to get around size.


Yup. Couldn't agree more

fiendishoc wrote:
He's getting there

Blake is pretty good going coast to coast. And he's a good passer as well.


Mini Mamba wrote:
Randle has better footwork than Griffin.


I think the comparisons between Griffin and Randle will be interesting for the next 10 yrs of bball.

Randle is like the old school gritty version of Griffin. I think he is mentally tougher and will ultimately wind up the better player.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:32 am    Post subject:

I think Randle's shot is already better than Griffin's at the same point, which of course is damning with faint praise, but still. I think his handles and his footwork are better at the same point as well. Blake has that (pre injury) Amare, Antonio McDyess type elevation that I don't see in Randle. He can get up, he's just not an effortless high wire act like those guys. But that base, that first step, those handles, being a lefty, and understanding how to bump and clear space, those are all well ahead of what Blake had. Randle's ceiling is higher than current Blake IMO.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
I think Randle's shot is already better than Griffin's at the same point, which of course is damning with faint praise, but still. I think his handles and his footwork are better at the same point as well. Blake has that (pre injury) Amare, Antonio McDyess type elevation that I don't see in Randle. He can get up, he's just not an effortless high wire act like those guys. But that base, that first step, those handles, being a lefty, and understanding how to bump and clear space, those are all well ahead of what Blake had. Randle's ceiling is higher than current Blake IMO.


Spot on.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:20 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
B_P wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
Nice post. Somehow I missed it the first time around. So I'll give it a sticky.

Here's a video I posted a while back of Cleveland's offense with Scott. Scott has been heading in the same direction. Obviously, having Kobe and different talent will change some things, but you can compare with the above:

I don't totally agree with the BBall Breakdown that you need to go full Princeton or full Triangle for success. A lot of offenses use bits and pieces of these successfully. It just depends on the talent and coaches on whether or not you can be effective.
A ton of pindown screens and handoffs in that video. That isn't a problem in and of itself, but...

1) The guards should be either curling to the basket or fading to the 3 point line.
2) The screeners need to roll off of the screens in a "read opposite" fashion in order to be scoring threats. (one rolls toward the basket or seals to the right while the other pops left, or vice versa)


Otherwise, it's a recipe for long 2's, which you see a ton of in that video. The down screeners are clearly just down screeners here, and aren't a threat to score off of a roll or a slip screen. This is archaic stuff and I'm really discouraged by it.
Totally agree. As always: it's about doing the little things.
I think the way that I'd characterize it is that it's about putting everyone in position to be a threat. This is what Popovich does best in the design of his offensive sets. I can only speak in generalities without accompanying visuals, but if you're taking one thing away, BY DEFINITION you're giving something else up. It's just a matter of having someone in the place to be able to exploit that.
Accurate assessments from two astute observers.

When they get cleaner in their screens/picks (setting hard and solid screens while holding them for at least 2 seconds) by getting beyond the stage of always thinking about what is next - their offense will be much better.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:32 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
I think Randle's shot is already better than Griffin's at the same point, which of course is damning with faint praise, but still. I think his handles and his footwork are better at the same point as well. Blake has that (pre injury) Amare, Antonio McDyess type elevation that I don't see in Randle. He can get up, he's just not an effortless high wire act like those guys. But that base, that first step, those handles, being a lefty, and understanding how to bump and clear space, those are all well ahead of what Blake had. Randle's ceiling is higher than current Blake IMO.


beautiful to hear. On a side note, was it you 24, who has mentioned previously how Randle would really benefit from a PnR point guard? I want to see that action happen. I can also picture him succeeding that way - he's so agile that i can picture him hop-stepping/spinning/ripping through once he receives the ball in the paint off the PnR. I think he is most successful scoring in the paint off the move, rather than posted up. So it could potentially be a really good play for him. And he has a good PG in Lin to execute it with.
Of course, Randle just has to improve his screen setting. which is a basic skill; but for some reason (conditioning IMO) he's unable to just stand there and set a solid goddeng screen.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:58 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
24 wrote:
I think Randle's shot is already better than Griffin's at the same point, which of course is damning with faint praise, but still. I think his handles and his footwork are better at the same point as well. Blake has that (pre injury) Amare, Antonio McDyess type elevation that I don't see in Randle. He can get up, he's just not an effortless high wire act like those guys. But that base, that first step, those handles, being a lefty, and understanding how to bump and clear space, those are all well ahead of what Blake had. Randle's ceiling is higher than current Blake IMO.


beautiful to hear. On a side note, was it you 24, who has mentioned previously how Randle would really benefit from a PnR point guard? I want to see that action happen. I can also picture him succeeding that way - he's so agile that i can picture him hop-stepping/spinning/ripping through once he receives the ball in the paint off the PnR. I think he is most successful scoring in the paint off the move, rather than posted up. So it could potentially be a really good play for him. And he has a good PG in Lin to execute it with.
Of course, Randle just has to improve his screen setting. which is a basic skill; but for one reason (conditioning IMO) he's unable to just stand there and set a solid goddeng screen.


I'm not sure I have seen him try a spin move a single time yet. That would be a nice move for him to add to his arsenal.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:03 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
24 wrote:
I think Randle's shot is already better than Griffin's at the same point, which of course is damning with faint praise, but still. I think his handles and his footwork are better at the same point as well. Blake has that (pre injury) Amare, Antonio McDyess type elevation that I don't see in Randle. He can get up, he's just not an effortless high wire act like those guys. But that base, that first step, those handles, being a lefty, and understanding how to bump and clear space, those are all well ahead of what Blake had. Randle's ceiling is higher than current Blake IMO.


beautiful to hear. On a side note, was it you 24, who has mentioned previously how Randle would really benefit from a PnR point guard? I want to see that action happen. I can also picture him succeeding that way - he's so agile that i can picture him hop-stepping/spinning/ripping through once he receives the ball in the paint off the PnR. I think he is most successful scoring in the paint off the move, rather than posted up. So it could potentially be a really good play for him. And he has a good PG in Lin to execute it with.
Of course, Randle just has to improve his screen setting. which is a basic skill; but for one reason (conditioning IMO) he's unable to just stand there and set a solid goddeng screen.


I'm not sure I have seen him try a spin move a single time yet. That would be a nice move for him to add to his arsenal.


now that i think about it, im not sure I've seen him do it either. I have seen him euro step tho, and that could be an effective move after receiving the pass in the PnR. also, i have a typo in the quoted above "for one* reason" i meant "for some* reason). in the last paragraph
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:11 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
24 wrote:
I think Randle's shot is already better than Griffin's at the same point, which of course is damning with faint praise, but still. I think his handles and his footwork are better at the same point as well. Blake has that (pre injury) Amare, Antonio McDyess type elevation that I don't see in Randle. He can get up, he's just not an effortless high wire act like those guys. But that base, that first step, those handles, being a lefty, and understanding how to bump and clear space, those are all well ahead of what Blake had. Randle's ceiling is higher than current Blake IMO.


beautiful to hear. On a side note, was it you 24, who has mentioned previously how Randle would really benefit from a PnR point guard? I want to see that action happen. I can also picture him succeeding that way - he's so agile that i can picture him hop-stepping/spinning/ripping through once he receives the ball in the paint off the PnR. I think he is most successful scoring in the paint off the move, rather than posted up. So it could potentially be a really good play for him. And he has a good PG in Lin to execute it with.
Of course, Randle just has to improve his screen setting. which is a basic skill; but for one reason (conditioning IMO) he's unable to just stand there and set a solid goddeng screen.


I'm not sure I have seen him try a spin move a single time yet. That would be a nice move for him to add to his arsenal.


now that i think about it, im not sure I've seen him do it either. I have seen him euro step tho, and that could be an effective move after receiving the pass in the PnR. also, i have a typo in the quoted above "for one* reason" i meant "for some* reason). in the last paragraph


the euro step seems to be one of his pet moves on his coast to coast drives. he has a nice turn around flip shot in the post so I think adding the spin move would be relatively easy for him to do. Man, just imagining standing in front of the guy, Julius is a terrifying prospect for defenders to try and check.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:18 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
24 wrote:
I think Randle's shot is already better than Griffin's at the same point, which of course is damning with faint praise, but still. I think his handles and his footwork are better at the same point as well. Blake has that (pre injury) Amare, Antonio McDyess type elevation that I don't see in Randle. He can get up, he's just not an effortless high wire act like those guys. But that base, that first step, those handles, being a lefty, and understanding how to bump and clear space, those are all well ahead of what Blake had. Randle's ceiling is higher than current Blake IMO.


beautiful to hear. On a side note, was it you 24, who has mentioned previously how Randle would really benefit from a PnR point guard? I want to see that action happen. I can also picture him succeeding that way - he's so agile that i can picture him hop-stepping/spinning/ripping through once he receives the ball in the paint off the PnR. I think he is most successful scoring in the paint off the move, rather than posted up. So it could potentially be a really good play for him. And he has a good PG in Lin to execute it with.
Of course, Randle just has to improve his screen setting. which is a basic skill; but for one reason (conditioning IMO) he's unable to just stand there and set a solid goddeng screen.


I'm not sure I have seen him try a spin move a single time yet. That would be a nice move for him to add to his arsenal.


now that i think about it, im not sure I've seen him do it either. I have seen him euro step tho, and that could be an effective move after receiving the pass in the PnR. also, i have a typo in the quoted above "for one* reason" i meant "for some* reason). in the last paragraph


the euro step seems to be one of his pet moves on his coast to coast drives. he has a nice turn around flip shot in the post so I think adding the spin move would be relatively easy for him to do. Man, just imagining standing in front of the guy, Julius is a terrifying prospect for defenders to try and check.


aw man i can picture him doin the spin after catching it in the lane. a quick dribble and then a super quick spin finishing long with his left hand. and then the half spin and put the ball out move like Rondo does is available for the counter. Getting ahead of myself but , he's so skilled and agile that he better add a crap load of moves into his arsenal, cuz he has that capacity.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:25 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
24 wrote:
I think Randle's shot is already better than Griffin's at the same point, which of course is damning with faint praise, but still. I think his handles and his footwork are better at the same point as well. Blake has that (pre injury) Amare, Antonio McDyess type elevation that I don't see in Randle. He can get up, he's just not an effortless high wire act like those guys. But that base, that first step, those handles, being a lefty, and understanding how to bump and clear space, those are all well ahead of what Blake had. Randle's ceiling is higher than current Blake IMO.


beautiful to hear. On a side note, was it you 24, who has mentioned previously how Randle would really benefit from a PnR point guard? I want to see that action happen. I can also picture him succeeding that way - he's so agile that i can picture him hop-stepping/spinning/ripping through once he receives the ball in the paint off the PnR. I think he is most successful scoring in the paint off the move, rather than posted up. So it could potentially be a really good play for him. And he has a good PG in Lin to execute it with.
Of course, Randle just has to improve his screen setting. which is a basic skill; but for one reason (conditioning IMO) he's unable to just stand there and set a solid goddeng screen.


I'm not sure I have seen him try a spin move a single time yet. That would be a nice move for him to add to his arsenal.


now that i think about it, im not sure I've seen him do it either. I have seen him euro step tho, and that could be an effective move after receiving the pass in the PnR. also, i have a typo in the quoted above "for one* reason" i meant "for some* reason). in the last paragraph


The spin move has been Randle's go to move since highschool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUx_Pzis3rg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdsY62qaCoA#t=17
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