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DaMuleRules
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 Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| trmiv wrote: | https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/05/02/bernie-sanders-trump-biden/73531861007/
| Quote: | Exclusive: Bernie Sanders worries young people are underestimating the threat from Trump
The senator differs with Joe Biden on Israel but says progressives need to live in the 'real world' when it comes to the choice they face in the 2024 election. |
| Quote: | | "We can be extremely upset at the Biden administration for their policies with regard to Israel and Gaza, but the difficulty is that in the real world that you live in, you've got to take a look at a whole lot of things," he said, sitting in the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions committee hearing room on Capitol Hill. "On the other hand, I would hope that most of the young people and protestors do not want to see Donald Trump, who is a racist, a sexist, a homophobe who doesn't acknowledge the reality of climate change, become elected president of the United States." |
He strongly criticizes Biden on Israel, but says:
| Quote: | Sanders, the de facto leader of the progressive wing of the Democratic party, who has endorsed Biden says that however disenchanted the voters are the solution is not to elect a president "who admires authoritarian leaders like Putin, who's trying to undermine American democracy."
"The solution is to mobilize the American people, working-class people, Black, white, Latino, Native American, whatever they may be, to come together, to fight for a government, which represents all of us, and not just the few." |
He also goes on in the article to mention Biden’s many positive accomplishments in office.
I hope some of these idealistic progressives that want to “send a message” to Biden and Democrats by not voting, protest voting or voting Trump listen to this.
Unfortunately given what I see online from a lot of young people who are raging at Biden, I’m not confident at all they come around. |
This current group of young people are very vocal on social media etc., but it will be interesting to see how many of them actually take their voice to the polls and what they actually do if they do.
Going from my own straw poll, my kids are of voting age, and do so. Both are livid at Biden for his support of Israel, but know that Trump is far worse for their future. But they are both smart kids who like to make themselves heard, but aren’t the self of important type who feel the need to screw over everyone else to get their way. It’s my hope that they aren’t the rarity in their demo, and that the cloud and stupid ones are great at telling, but lazy in acting.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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slavavov
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | trmiv wrote: | https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/05/02/bernie-sanders-trump-biden/73531861007/
| Quote: | Exclusive: Bernie Sanders worries young people are underestimating the threat from Trump
The senator differs with Joe Biden on Israel but says progressives need to live in the 'real world' when it comes to the choice they face in the 2024 election. |
| Quote: | | "We can be extremely upset at the Biden administration for their policies with regard to Israel and Gaza, but the difficulty is that in the real world that you live in, you've got to take a look at a whole lot of things," he said, sitting in the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions committee hearing room on Capitol Hill. "On the other hand, I would hope that most of the young people and protestors do not want to see Donald Trump, who is a racist, a sexist, a homophobe who doesn't acknowledge the reality of climate change, become elected president of the United States." |
He strongly criticizes Biden on Israel, but says:
| Quote: | Sanders, the de facto leader of the progressive wing of the Democratic party, who has endorsed Biden says that however disenchanted the voters are the solution is not to elect a president "who admires authoritarian leaders like Putin, who's trying to undermine American democracy."
"The solution is to mobilize the American people, working-class people, Black, white, Latino, Native American, whatever they may be, to come together, to fight for a government, which represents all of us, and not just the few." |
He also goes on in the article to mention Biden’s many positive accomplishments in office.
I hope some of these idealistic progressives that want to “send a message” to Biden and Democrats by not voting, protest voting or voting Trump listen to this.
Unfortunately given what I see online from a lot of young people who are raging at Biden, I’m not confident at all they come around. |
This current group of young people are very vocal on social media etc., but it will be interesting to see how many of them actually take their voice to the polls and what they actually do if they do.
Going from my own straw poll, my kids are of voting age, and do so. Both are livid at Biden for his support of Israel, but know that Trump is far worse for their future. But they are both smart kids who like to make themselves heard, but aren’t the self of important type who feel the need to screw over everyone else to get their way. It’s my hope that they aren’t the rarity in their demo, and that the cloud and stupid ones are great at telling, but lazy in acting. |
This is one thing that annoys me about these pro-Palestinian protestors, even though I'm sympathetic to the core of their movement and the mistreatment of people in Gaza.
They keep hating on Biden and call him "Genocide Joe" but they don't seem to be aware or even want to admit that Trump would be far worse on this issue. The GOP in general would blindly support Israel, and some Republicans have even said things that are anti-Palestinian.
I told one of my FB friends who is pro-Palestinian and has been totally obsessed with this issue for years that Trump would be even worse than Biden when it comes to this. His response: "They're two hands on the same arm."
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: |
This is one thing that annoys me about these pro-Palestinian protestors, even though I'm sympathetic to the core of their movement and the mistreatment of people in Gaza.
They keep hating on Biden and call him "Genocide Joe" but they don't seem to be aware or even want to admit that Trump would be far worse on this issue. The GOP in general would blindly support Israel, and some Republicans have even said things that are anti-Palestinian.
I told one of my FB friends who is pro-Palestinian and has been totally obsessed with this issue for years that Trump would be even worse than Biden when it comes to this. His response: "They're two hands on the same arm." |
I have a friend at work who is similar. And to be honest. He would've found another reason to not vote Dem if Joe was pro-Palestine. Some people on the left are lost causes.
The progressives on the left I follow online are pragmatic.
They'll criticize Biden regularly. But always tell their supporters they are voting Dem. They understand you gotta be pragmatic. And they also understand, disappointment in liberals not being progressive enough is something that comes with the territory.
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slavavov
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: |
The progressives on the left I follow online are pragmatic.
They'll criticize Biden regularly. But always tell their supporters they are voting Dem. They understand you gotta be pragmatic. And they also understand, disappointment in liberals not being progressive enough is something that comes with the territory. |
Yes!
I also have criticisms of Biden. He's too conservative for me (tbh most people are a little too conservative for me), but he's been a much better president than I thought he would. And even though he's against legalizing weed and single-payer health care, and even though he supports drilling for oil, I will be very happy to vote for him in November, and I would be pretty happy if he's still our president for a second term.
He's far from perfect, and I have criticisms of him. But he's still my president. And I'm as left-wing as you can be without being a true socialist.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | | kikanga wrote: |
The progressives on the left I follow online are pragmatic.
They'll criticize Biden regularly. But always tell their supporters they are voting Dem. They understand you gotta be pragmatic. And they also understand, disappointment in liberals not being progressive enough is something that comes with the territory. |
Yes!
I also have criticisms of Biden. He's too conservative for me (tbh most people are a little too conservative for me), but he's been a much better president than I thought he would. And even though he's against legalizing weed and single-payer health care, and even though he supports drilling for oil, I will be very happy to vote for him in November, and I would be pretty happy if he's still our president for a second term.
He's far from perfect, and I have criticisms of him. But he's still my president. And I'm as left-wing as you can be without being a true socialist. |
We'll get our chance again in the 2028 Dem primary cycle. And when our next President (AOC) is inaugurated. We'll see if we can get Larry to hack into Omar and DMRs account and change their profile pictures to her inauguration photo. 
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paymonM
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| C M B wrote: | | paymonM wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | @kikanga @DaMuleRules @strong9 I think it's important to remember the difference between a nation and its ideals, versus how it actually functions.
Israel is supposed to be (from what I understand) a democracy that doesn't have an official religion, even though it is also supposed to be an eternal homeland for Jews. Therefore, i think it is wrong for anyone to say Israel shouldn't exist and that it doesn't have the right to defend itself, which is what some of these pro-Palestinian protestors are saying.
Instead, we should be criticizing Netanyahu and the rest of its so-called leadership for mistreating non-Jews. Imo it needs a left-wing or moderate PM and Knesset that will reach out to Arabs and Palestinians living there and guarantee them equal rights and equal treatment.
People say Israel has been mistreating people in Gaza for its entire existence. Is that representative of Israel's ideals as a whole? Even if it is, it can change.
For example, our country was founded on the ideals of equal justice under law and all people are created equal. But we haven't lived up to that because of how poorly we have treated people who aren't straight white men. But we have made major progress, haven't we? So despite the backlash from conservatives and libertarians, we're gradually becoming a multicultural society while retaining enough of our "white" heritage.
I think Israel can do the same, if not better, and I hope both us and Israel will keep doing better in that department.
On the other hand, while Hamas was founded in response to bad things the Israeli govt did, Hamas' ideal and goal is to ethnically cleanse that region and the entire world of Jews, and that is also apparently Iran's goal. |
once again, you are showing that you do not have a clear understanding of what is happening in the region. This was back in 2018:
"JERUSALEM — Israel passed a controversial new “nation-state law” last week that’s sparking both celebration and fierce debate over the very nature of Israel itself.
The law does three big things:
It states that “the right to exercise national self-determination” in Israel is “unique to the Jewish people.”
It establishes Hebrew as Israel’s official language, and downgrades Arabic — a language widely spoken by Arab Israelis — to a “special status.”
It establishes “Jewish settlement as a national value” and mandates that the state “will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development.”"
https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy
This is from Netanyahu back in 2018 from the Times of Israel:
“We enshrined in law the basic principle of our existence,” said Netanyahu. “Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people, which respects the individual rights of all its citizens. This is our state — the Jewish state. In recent years there have been some who have attempted to put this in doubt, to undercut the core of our being. Today we made it law: This is our nation, language and flag.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-hails-jewish-state-law-as-a-pivotal-moment-in-zionist-history/ |
now do Palestine's stance on Jews (the western world, gays, religious freedom, womens' rights, etc) |
Your whataboutism fails miserably as you try to compare 2M people in refugee camps the size of the city of long beach who have been under inhumane conditions for 20+ years to a country that is rich and flush with money and has the ability to control what people like you need to know.
You ask what Palestine's stance on Jews (the western world, gays, religious freedom, womens' rights, is, well, ...... if they put you and your family in a cage for years, control every facet of your life including food, electricity and freedom of movement, what do you think your stance would be on jews and the western world, or any topic for that matter. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: |
We'll get our chance again in the 2028 Dem primary cycle. And when our next President (AOC) is inaugurated. We'll see if we can get Larry to hack into Omar and DMRs account and change their profile pictures to her inauguration photo. |
One of the many dangerous things that Trump getting elected engendered was making people think that experience actually governing isn't an important aspect to being POTUS.
I think highly of AOC. She's sharp, charismatic, idealistic and one of our more promising young politicians. But while she talks a great game, she is a long way from being presidential material when it comes to actually leading a world super power because she lacks that experience actually governing as the point person. I hope she gets there one day, but it is not going to happen in the next four years and I hope that the DP can find a more appropriate in the meantime.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: |
This is one thing that annoys me about these pro-Palestinian protestors, even though I'm sympathetic to the core of their movement and the mistreatment of people in Gaza.
They keep hating on Biden and call him "Genocide Joe" but they don't seem to be aware or even want to admit that Trump would be far worse on this issue. The GOP in general would blindly support Israel, and some Republicans have even said things that are anti-Palestinian.
I told one of my FB friends who is pro-Palestinian and has been totally obsessed with this issue for years that Trump would be even worse than Biden when it comes to this. His response: "They're two hands on the same arm." |
They also don't understand the entirety of the three quarters of a century of history regarding the establishment of Israel, the complicated dynamic in the region that has developed as a result, and the delicate role that the US has in weighing how it deals with all of it.
Anyone with half a brain can see that Biden is a hugely decent human being with compassion for the lives of everyone. If the answer to what is going on with Gaza and Israel was as simple as slapping Netanyahu on the wrist and taking the bombs away, Biden would certainly do it.
Anyone who thinks that Biden actually supports genocide is someone who is ignorant of the man's character, naive about the history of the conflict in the region and the complications inherent as a result.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| C M B wrote: |
now do Palestine's stance on Jews (the western world, gays, religious freedom, womens' rights, etc) |
I think hearing you attempt to do so would be much more interesting given you are conflating Hamas to represent all Palestinians; which is as wrong as conflating Netanyahu to represent all Israelis, much less all Jews.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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tox
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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What drives me crazy about the young voters who don't want to vote for Biden is, afaik, they profess to care about abortion (guess whose SCOTUS judges overturned Roe), guns (guess which party's SCOTUS judges ruled for DC vs Heller), healthcare (guess which candidate tried to repeal Obamacare), and climate change (guess which candidate actually passed transformative climate change legislation)?
But more than that -- I can almost forgive Gen Z voters who weren't of voting age when Trump was elected. But I have friends my age (whose first election was either '12 or '16) who literally saw the consequences of "Hillary and Trump are the same" rhetoric when Roe was killed (among many other things). They should know better! |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | What drives me crazy about the young voters who don't want to vote for Biden is, afaik, they profess to care about abortion (guess whose SCOTUS judges overturned Roe), guns (guess which party's SCOTUS judges ruled for DC vs Heller), healthcare (guess which candidate tried to repeal Obamacare), and climate change (guess which candidate actually passed transformative climate change legislation)?
But more than that -- I can almost forgive Gen Z voters who weren't of voting age when Trump was elected. But I have friends my age (whose first election was either '12 or '16) who literally saw the consequences of "Hillary and Trump are the same" rhetoric when Roe was killed (among many other things). They should know better! |
A huge percentage of voters are morons, especially single-issue voters. This includes people on both sides of the voting aisle. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | tox wrote: | What drives me crazy about the young voters who don't want to vote for Biden is, afaik, they profess to care about abortion (guess whose SCOTUS judges overturned Roe), guns (guess which party's SCOTUS judges ruled for DC vs Heller), healthcare (guess which candidate tried to repeal Obamacare), and climate change (guess which candidate actually passed transformative climate change legislation)?
But more than that -- I can almost forgive Gen Z voters who weren't of voting age when Trump was elected. But I have friends my age (whose first election was either '12 or '16) who literally saw the consequences of "Hillary and Trump are the same" rhetoric when Roe was killed (among many other things). They should know better! |
A huge percentage of voters are morons, especially single-issue voters. This includes people on both sides of the voting aisle. |
Very true. The ridiculous thing about this instance is how self destructive a hill to die on this one is. Not only is Trump a worse option for their best interests overall, he's far worse than Biden when it comes to their one issue.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | tox wrote: | What drives me crazy about the young voters who don't want to vote for Biden is, afaik, they profess to care about abortion (guess whose SCOTUS judges overturned Roe), guns (guess which party's SCOTUS judges ruled for DC vs Heller), healthcare (guess which candidate tried to repeal Obamacare), and climate change (guess which candidate actually passed transformative climate change legislation)?
But more than that -- I can almost forgive Gen Z voters who weren't of voting age when Trump was elected. But I have friends my age (whose first election was either '12 or '16) who literally saw the consequences of "Hillary and Trump are the same" rhetoric when Roe was killed (among many other things). They should know better! |
A huge percentage of voters are morons, especially single-issue voters. This includes people on both sides of the voting aisle. |
Very true. The ridiculous thing about this instance is how self destructive a hill to die on this one is. Not only is Trump a worse option for their best interests overall, he's far worse than Biden when it comes to their one issue. |
Perfectly put. And the repercussions will be felt long after Trump is gone. We could have a situation where FIVE JUSTICES on the court are Trump appointees. And that’s even assuming we have a democracy remaining. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | tox wrote: | What drives me crazy about the young voters who don't want to vote for Biden is, afaik, they profess to care about abortion (guess whose SCOTUS judges overturned Roe), guns (guess which party's SCOTUS judges ruled for DC vs Heller), healthcare (guess which candidate tried to repeal Obamacare), and climate change (guess which candidate actually passed transformative climate change legislation)?
But more than that -- I can almost forgive Gen Z voters who weren't of voting age when Trump was elected. But I have friends my age (whose first election was either '12 or '16) who literally saw the consequences of "Hillary and Trump are the same" rhetoric when Roe was killed (among many other things). They should know better! |
A huge percentage of voters are morons, especially single-issue voters. This includes people on both sides of the voting aisle. |
Very true. The ridiculous thing about this instance is how self destructive a hill to die on this one is. Not only is Trump a worse option for their best interests overall, he's far worse than Biden when it comes to their one issue. |
Perfectly put. And the repercussions will be felt long after Trump is gone. We could have a situation where FIVE JUSTICES on the court are Trump appointees. And that’s even assuming we have a democracy remaining. |
That worries the hell out of me.Dumbed Down America
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kikanga
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | tox wrote: | What drives me crazy about the young voters who don't want to vote for Biden is, afaik, they profess to care about abortion (guess whose SCOTUS judges overturned Roe), guns (guess which party's SCOTUS judges ruled for DC vs Heller), healthcare (guess which candidate tried to repeal Obamacare), and climate change (guess which candidate actually passed transformative climate change legislation)?
But more than that -- I can almost forgive Gen Z voters who weren't of voting age when Trump was elected. But I have friends my age (whose first election was either '12 or '16) who literally saw the consequences of "Hillary and Trump are the same" rhetoric when Roe was killed (among many other things). They should know better! |
A huge percentage of voters are morons, especially single-issue voters. This includes people on both sides of the voting aisle. |
Very true ... |
I agree.
Small exception being if the Democrats push a bill that says, "anybody with an internet name 'kikanga' must root for the Clippers."
Then I'm sitting out guys.
A man's got his morals. It's P&G over everything.
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strong9
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | tox wrote: | What drives me crazy about the young voters who don't want to vote for Biden is, afaik, they profess to care about abortion (guess whose SCOTUS judges overturned Roe), guns (guess which party's SCOTUS judges ruled for DC vs Heller), healthcare (guess which candidate tried to repeal Obamacare), and climate change (guess which candidate actually passed transformative climate change legislation)?
But more than that -- I can almost forgive Gen Z voters who weren't of voting age when Trump was elected. But I have friends my age (whose first election was either '12 or '16) who literally saw the consequences of "Hillary and Trump are the same" rhetoric when Roe was killed (among many other things). They should know better! |
A huge percentage of voters are morons, especially single-issue voters. This includes people on both sides of the voting aisle. |
Very true. The ridiculous thing about this instance is how self destructive a hill to die on this one is. Not only is Trump a worse option for their best interests overall, he's far worse than Biden when it comes to their one issue. |
I've had this discussion here before..you are missing the point. For many of them it is "burn baby burn"...they don't care. They are trying to bring the war home, albeit in an indirect, nonviolent way. You call them morons, they think the system is smug and they want to shock the system. They lose, but so do you. Maybe that's their point. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 8:01 am Post subject: |
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If someone wants to sit out due to the indiscriminate death and destruction in Gaza. I don't have a complete argument to convince them to vote for Biden.
Of course, I'll go policy by policy. Women's reproductive rights, domestic fiscal policy, environmental policy, infrastructure legislation, heck the fact that Democrats want to improve your life using legislation, and Republicans don't want to, don't know how to, and are proud of it.
I'll also bring up, that Biden is better than Trump on Gaza. I'll even bring up progressives in social media who are still advocating for the lesser-of-2-evils, pragmatic Biden vote (factoring in Gaza).
With all that said. If someone says, "we just gave billions in aid so Israel can go and commit another human atrocity in Rafah". Or "with all the death and devastation we've already seen I don't want to be on the wrong side of history. I don't want to support making things worse".
I don't have a complete rebuttal to them sitting out. I don't have the heart to make the argument. Genocide is inevitable. So support the lesser of genocides.
And in my mind, that is where the ball is in Biden's court. I just have to assume, Biden and his people have done their due diligence. To catering to enough voters. To make sure Trump's fascism doesn't take over.
Voters have to take Trump's threat to Democracy seriously. Same with Biden. I have to trust he understands what is at stake and has staked out positions to keep Trump out of office.
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Last edited by kikanga on Sat May 04, 2024 8:07 am; edited 4 times in total |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| strong9 wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | tox wrote: | What drives me crazy about the young voters who don't want to vote for Biden is, afaik, they profess to care about abortion (guess whose SCOTUS judges overturned Roe), guns (guess which party's SCOTUS judges ruled for DC vs Heller), healthcare (guess which candidate tried to repeal Obamacare), and climate change (guess which candidate actually passed transformative climate change legislation)?
But more than that -- I can almost forgive Gen Z voters who weren't of voting age when Trump was elected. But I have friends my age (whose first election was either '12 or '16) who literally saw the consequences of "Hillary and Trump are the same" rhetoric when Roe was killed (among many other things). They should know better! |
A huge percentage of voters are morons, especially single-issue voters. This includes people on both sides of the voting aisle. |
Very true. The ridiculous thing about this instance is how self destructive a hill to die on this one is. Not only is Trump a worse option for their best interests overall, he's far worse than Biden when it comes to their one issue. |
I've had this discussion here before..you are missing the point. For many of them it is "burn baby burn"...they don't care. They are trying to bring the war home, albeit in an indirect, nonviolent way. You call them morons, they think the system is smug and they want to shock the system. They lose, but so do you. Maybe that's their point. |
It's still moronic, no matter how you try and spin it.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29658
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 8:14 am Post subject: |
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When people keep worrying about progressives. I keep coming back to: unless they are in swing states they don't matter.
And I trust that Biden is polling and researching how to get enough swing state voters. Even if Biden's plan is to punt some college voters in swing states to grab more of demographics from other age groups.
If it keeps Trump out of office. I am happy.
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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strong9
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Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 3303
Location: so many places
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | strong9 wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | tox wrote: | What drives me crazy about the young voters who don't want to vote for Biden is, afaik, they profess to care about abortion (guess whose SCOTUS judges overturned Roe), guns (guess which party's SCOTUS judges ruled for DC vs Heller), healthcare (guess which candidate tried to repeal Obamacare), and climate change (guess which candidate actually passed transformative climate change legislation)?
But more than that -- I can almost forgive Gen Z voters who weren't of voting age when Trump was elected. But I have friends my age (whose first election was either '12 or '16) who literally saw the consequences of "Hillary and Trump are the same" rhetoric when Roe was killed (among many other things). They should know better! |
A huge percentage of voters are morons, especially single-issue voters. This includes people on both sides of the voting aisle. |
Very true. The ridiculous thing about this instance is how self destructive a hill to die on this one is. Not only is Trump a worse option for their best interests overall, he's far worse than Biden when it comes to their one issue. |
I've had this discussion here before..you are missing the point. For many of them it is "burn baby burn"...they don't care. They are trying to bring the war home, albeit in an indirect, nonviolent way. You call them morons, they think the system is smug and they want to shock the system. They lose, but so do you. Maybe that's their point. |
It's still moronic, no matter how you try and spin it. |
Of course. And some might call resorting to name calling as equally moronic and evidencing an inability to check emotions. Heads or tails? |
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strong9
Star Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 3303
Location: so many places
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | When people keep worrying about progressives. I keep coming back to: unless they are in swing states they don't matter.
And I trust that Biden is polling and researching how to get enough swing state voters. Even if Biden's plan is to punt some college voters in swing states to grab more of demographics from other age groups.
If it keeps Trump out of office. I am happy. |
I think there is a belief that the actual impact on voter turnout by those for whom this is a wedge issue will be minimal. It's a low priorty issue overall from everything I read. |
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paymonM
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Posts: 4416
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 10:48 am Post subject: |
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just insane. No accountability
https://www.yahoo.com/news/columbia-professor-wanted-document-history-091227222.html
"Gregory Pflugfelder had just finished the final class of his career at Columbia. In 28 years at the university, he achieved many accolades as a professor of history who taught a popular course on Japanese monsters ‒ mostly focused on Godzilla and "the role of the monstrous in the cultural imagination."
He didn't know it, but a cultural monster of sorts would soon be at his door.
The next night, on Tuesday, the 64-year-old silver-haired scholar stepped outside his apartment building, located off campus across the street from Columbia. He wanted to record iPhone video of hundreds of police responding to historic student protests against Israel’s war in Gaza. Fifteen minutes later, the NYPD arrested him. |
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DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52720
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| strong9 wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | strong9 wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | tox wrote: | What drives me crazy about the young voters who don't want to vote for Biden is, afaik, they profess to care about abortion (guess whose SCOTUS judges overturned Roe), guns (guess which party's SCOTUS judges ruled for DC vs Heller), healthcare (guess which candidate tried to repeal Obamacare), and climate change (guess which candidate actually passed transformative climate change legislation)?
But more than that -- I can almost forgive Gen Z voters who weren't of voting age when Trump was elected. But I have friends my age (whose first election was either '12 or '16) who literally saw the consequences of "Hillary and Trump are the same" rhetoric when Roe was killed (among many other things). They should know better! |
A huge percentage of voters are morons, especially single-issue voters. This includes people on both sides of the voting aisle. |
Very true. The ridiculous thing about this instance is how self destructive a hill to die on this one is. Not only is Trump a worse option for their best interests overall, he's far worse than Biden when it comes to their one issue. |
I've had this discussion here before..you are missing the point. For many of them it is "burn baby burn"...they don't care. They are trying to bring the war home, albeit in an indirect, nonviolent way. You call them morons, they think the system is smug and they want to shock the system. They lose, but so do you. Maybe that's their point. |
It's still moronic, no matter how you try and spin it. |
Of course. And some might call resorting to name calling as equally moronic and evidencing an inability to check emotions. Heads or tails? |
I didn’t name call. I simply described the behavior of punishing oneself in order to punish others as being moronic. It has nothing to do with being emotional. It’s just common sense.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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strong9
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Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 3303
Location: so many places
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 11:43 am Post subject: |
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But you did DMR. You called it "moronic". That's name calling.
Kikanga provided a nuanced response, validating their sentiment while still disagreeing with their premise - i can get on board with that. You resorted to name calling. It's not very productive. Hopefully it's just how we all interact on an anonymized mesaage board for something as frivolous as basketball and not with well meaning citizens in real life because we will not win hearts and minds that way. |
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DaMuleRules
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52720
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| strong9 wrote: | But you did DMR. You called it "moronic". That's name calling.
Kikanga provided a nuanced response, validating their sentiment while still disagreeing with their premise - i can get on board with that. You resorted to name calling. It's not very productive. Hopefully it's just how we all interact on an anonymized mesaage board for something as frivolous as basketball and not with well meaning citizens in real life because we will not win hearts and minds that way. |
No. Describing an attitude is not name calling. There's a difference between "you are a moron" and "you are acting like a moron". One can do the later without being the former. It's an important and legitimate distinction.
As for what's productive or not, shooting oneself in the foot in a selfish move to punish the collective (an attitude you endorsed) is the very definition not being productive.
When it comes to dealing with the prospect of losing democracy, there's no "winning the hearts and minds" of those intent on bringing that about simply because they aren't getting their own way. You brought up the attitude of "I'm going to burn it all down and I am taking you all with me". Do you actually think that is "well meaning"? Do you think it demonstrates an ability to keep one's emotions in check? Do you think it's an attitude meant to win hearts and minds? Do you think that's being respectful of others?
You can't excuse selfish and destructive behavior, and then call people out for pointing out that it is selfish and destructive.
There's a profound level of irony (to use the kinder word) in admonishing someone for their alleged lack of civility while advocating for those who would engage in the least civil act possible.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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