was kobe the best passing shooting guard of all time?

 
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nomoreshaq
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:52 pm    Post subject: was kobe the best passing shooting guard of all time?

i know positions are kind of nebulous in NBA lore but do you think kobe is the best passing guard (who wasn't a straight up PG) in history? i honestly can't think of any.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:02 pm    Post subject:

Harden?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: was kobe the best passing shooting guard of all time?

nomoreshaq wrote:
i know positions are kind of nebulous in NBA lore but do you think kobe is the best passing guard (who wasn't a straight up PG) in history? i honestly can't think of any.


That never crossed my mind watching him play. He did what he needed to do for a 6'6 guy who got doubled and tripled a lot. Both Wade and MJ had higher assist average. Harden beats them all, but a little inflated under MDA's system.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: was kobe the best passing shooting guard of all time?

nomoreshaq wrote:
i know positions are kind of nebulous in NBA lore but do you think kobe is the best passing guard (who wasn't a straight up PG) in history? i honestly can't think of any.


That never crossed my mind watching him play. He did what he needed to do for a 6'6 guy who got doubled and tripled a lot. Both Wade and MJ had higher assist average. Harden beats them all, but a little inflated under MDA's system.
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Buck32
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:11 am    Post subject:

Ginobili?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:25 am    Post subject:

Jerry West was a very good passing guard who basically ran the point while also serving as the de facto shooting guard.
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Cyberfreak444
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:38 am    Post subject:

No. Kobe was a much better passer than the average fan realized. He could make most passes. But he certainly wasn’t the best at his position.

Harden certainly comes to mind - he can make those LeBron-esque cross court passes right into the shooting pocket of a spot up shooter. Jordan was a better passer too - in his best seasons he got over 8 assists per game. I always thought Jordan was one of the best utilizers of pass fakes to throw off defenses. Dwayne Wade was a fantastic passer throughout his career - one of the best at any position at throwing lobs, passing off of drives, and throwing full court Wes Unseld style passes. One guy that’s often forgotten is Jerry West - he was such a magnificent passer that people weren’t sure whether to classify him as a 1 or 2. And someone earlier mentioned Ginobili who could make all the passes as well although he probably tried a few too many high risk passes. I’d also give some consideration to Tracy McGrady who was underrated in his court vision and ability to make passes over the defense.


Last edited by Cyberfreak444 on Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:03 am; edited 3 times in total
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:00 am    Post subject:

Gotta throw in Pete Maravich. As always, there is a question about whether he was really great or just the ultimate hot dog. Regardless, he was one helluva passer. He belongs on the list.

As for Kobe, I never regarded him as a great passer per se. He was more of a playmaker than a passer. He was a good passer, but he was not quite at the level of contemporaries like Wade and Ginobili.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: was kobe the best passing shooting guard of all time?

nomoreshaq wrote:
i know positions are kind of nebulous in NBA lore but do you think kobe is the best passing guard (who wasn't a straight up PG) in history? i honestly can't think of any.


Not sure who the best passing shooting guard in NBA history is. The usual suspects are Kobe, MJ, Maravich, Ginobili, and Jerry West
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:59 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Gotta throw in Pete Maravich. As always, there is a question about whether he was really great or just the ultimate hot dog. Regardless, he was one helluva passer. He belongs on the list.

As for Kobe, I never regarded him as a great passer per se. He was more of a playmaker than a passer. He was a good passer, but he was not quite at the level of contemporaries like Wade and Ginobili.


I don’t know how I forgot Pistol Pete. The man had some of the flashiest passes imaginable and he could pull them off against pro level competition. Maybe a little too flashy (think the White Chocolate of his era) but he clearly had tremendous passing talent.

And I agree with your point about Kobe. He can’t be the best passing shooting guard of all time when two of his contemporaries at the position in Wade and Ginobili were better passers than him despite Kobe very clearly being a better overall player than they were.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 8:12 am    Post subject:

Harden, as much as I hate his playing style NOW, throws incredible passes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUJObmuBgxs

Manu was good, and yeah, Maravich.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:35 am    Post subject:

Ginobili, Wade, West (depending how you view him), Maravich.

Not Harden.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:03 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Ginobili, Wade, West (depending how you view him), Maravich.

Not Harden.


Why not Harden?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:44 am    Post subject:

No. Kobe was a good passer, but not instinctive like some others.

NBA counts assists differently now, but a lot of SGs in the 60s/70s/80s were great passers, but have lower assist numbers because of the rules back then.

    Paul Westphal
    Charlie Scott
    Hal Greer
    Jeff Hornacek
    Ron Harper (pre injury)
    Tracy McGrady
    Clyde Drexler
    Joe Dumars


Are just a few off the top of my head.

Kobe was a scorer first. He was great at drawing defenders and dishing . . . but he didn't dish to open teammates nearly as much as he could.

Kobe would make the right pass when it was there (2000 WCF Game 7 lob to Shaq in the closing minutes of the 4th), but Kobe would often pass up an open teammate to take a "good-for-Kobe" shot.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, since a "good-for-Kobe" shot was often a better option than a wide open shot for some of the other guys on the team.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:49 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Ginobili, Wade, West (depending how you view him), Maravich.

Not Harden.


Why not Harden?


He can make advanced reads but plays a ton of 1-4 sets. Guys like Gino, Wade, Maravich make reads in action.
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richsmith
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:59 pm    Post subject:

I wouldn't even have Kobe in the conversation for best passer as a 2. He was a good passer for sure, but all the names mentioned above are/were superior. It was a good facet of Kobe's game but not one of his greatest strengths.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:37 pm    Post subject:

Kobe Johnson wasn't just a meme. Remember that one year when Lakers lost all their point guards to injury and Kobe had to play PG for about a week and almost averaged a triple double? Best passer at SG no but much better than people give him credit for. When he decided he wanted to get everyone involve Kobe could do great things.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:45 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
Kobe Johnson wasn't just a meme. Remember that one year when Lakers lost all their point guards to injury and Kobe had to play PG for about a week and almost averaged a triple double? Best passer at SG no but much better than people give him credit for. When he decided he wanted to get everyone involve Kobe could do great things.


Agreed that he could - he just didn't often enough to be considered the best passing 2 guard.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:09 am    Post subject:

Kobe was the best. Period.

If you want to state a different opinion, go to another message board in the deep abyss of the internet and feel free to do so there.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:56 am    Post subject:

Kobe has his own kind of assist.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:18 am    Post subject:

DEFINITELY!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:33 pm    Post subject:

Not gonna say he's the best passer, but damn, he's had some dynamic assists in such big moments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iJ6-EDla5k
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:29 am    Post subject:

Cyberfreak444 wrote:
No. Kobe was a much better passer than the average fan realized. He could make most passes. But he certainly wasn’t the best at his position.


I considered him to be a great passer in a technical sense. When he wanted a bunch of assists, he could get em any time he wanted. He made a lot of excellent Magicy passes in his day. Alas, he wasn't a passer at heart as we all know. He also preferred to be the guy who directly passed to someone else for the assist rather than play that old style pass around game that even Bird and Magic played. Kobe probably felt the Lakers were at their best when he was the direct cause of good things rather than letting the game flow around him. And of course, there were games where he did flow and had easy 3/2s. I got one here, at DC 04. A few great passes in there. Relaxed game, Kobe just messed around and got da triple double. That day he didn't even have to use his A-K.

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