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lakersfever714
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Joined: 05 Jan 2016
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 Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | If not for injuries last year the Lakers would have had 2 championships in the 3 years they've had LeBron.
Factor that into your decision making too. |
So we factor in fantasy? I will pass on that. |
No, you factor in that we were in a position to win a Championship 2 years in a row, and the one year we didn't wasn't due to roster construction, it was due to injury.
THAT is what you factor in. |
What about this season? Sure, it was great Pelinka built a championship team in his first season but why did he break it apart? If he genuinely thought those players were talented, he wouldn't have let them go. He let Howard slip away then re-signed him this season. I bet he would sign KCP and AC back onto the team if he was given the opportunity next season.
It seems to me like he has no clue about basketball talent and just got plain lucky in his first season. Why would he opt for Gasol for 3-pt shooting when Howard and McGee just won a championship probably without attempting a three? Why would he sign DS to reduce the workload for Lebron when Green didn't even handle the ball? |
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MJST
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Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26309
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | If not for injuries last year the Lakers would have had 2 championships in the 3 years they've had LeBron.
Factor that into your decision making too. |
So we factor in fantasy? I will pass on that. |
No, you factor in that we were in a position to win a Championship 2 years in a row, and the one year we didn't wasn't due to roster construction, it was due to injury.
THAT is what you factor in. |
What about this season? |
LeBron has yet to play more than 3 consecutive games this season. Hard to gain chemistry when that's the case with your main guy.
This team is going to have to actually play 10-15 consecutive games together before we can truly see what they can do as a unit with consistency. LeBron's gonna have to play more than 3 games at a time before missing time, for whatever reason.
We can look at Westbrook's first 11 games of the season and then his next 12 to see how he turned it around, same for AD. We can't with LeBron because up until our last game, LeBron had only played 11 games. That's a problem. The most significant one.
Thus far we're 7-5 in the games we've actually played together. Which isn't even realyl much to go off of. We were on a 3 game winning streak before LeBron had to miss time with injury and we've yet to regain that consistency as of yet. Still a ways to go. But LeBron, AD and Westbrook HAVE to play 20 games together or so to actually start to figure things out more.
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Last edited by MJST on Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | If not for injuries last year the Lakers would have had 2 championships in the 3 years they've had LeBron.
Factor that into your decision making too. |
So we factor in fantasy? I will pass on that. |
No, you factor in that we were in a position to win a Championship 2 years in a row, and the one year we didn't wasn't due to roster construction, it was due to injury.
THAT is what you factor in. |
What about this season? |
LeBron has yet to play more than 3 consecutive games this season. Hard to gain chemistry when that's the case with your main guy.
This team is going to have to actually play 10-15 consecutive games together before we can truly see what they can do as a unit with consistency. LeBron's gonna have to play more than 3 games at a time before missing time, for whatever reason.
We can look at Westbrook's first 11 games of the season and then his next 12 to see how he turned it around, same for AD. We can't with LeBron because up until our last game, LeBron had only played 11 games. That's a problem. The most significant one. |
Who brought an old Lebron here and decided to build around him? The FO is getting exactly what they asked for.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Bard207
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Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | If not for injuries last year the Lakers would have had 2 championships in the 3 years they've had LeBron.
Factor that into your decision making too. |
So we factor in fantasy? I will pass on that. |
No, you factor in that we were in a position to win a Championship 2 years in a row, and the one year we didn't wasn't due to roster construction, it was due to injury.
THAT is what you factor in. |
What about this season? |
LeBron has yet to play more than 3 consecutive games this season. Hard to gain chemistry when that's the case with your main guy.
This team is going to have to actually play 10-15 consecutive games together before we can truly see what they can do as a unit with consistency. LeBron's gonna have to play more than 3 games at a time before missing time, for whatever reason.
We can look at Westbrook's first 11 games of the season and then his next 12 to see how he turned it around, same for AD. We can't with LeBron because up until our last game, LeBron had only played 11 games. That's a problem. The most significant one. |
Who brought an old Lebron here and decided to build around him? The FO is getting exactly what they asked for. |
I thought that Magic had already set the wheels in motion to bring LeBron in.
For something as major as bringing in LeBron, I would think whichever employee that was running Basketball Operations would let the owner (Jeanie) know what they were working on. If Jeanie had told them to forget LeBron and stick with what they were doing with the rebuild with youth, would they have defied her and brought in LeBron anyway?
I thought that some of the issues that she had with Jim & Mitch were they kept her out of the loop on what was happening on the basketball side. After running them off and bringing in employees (Magic & Pelinka), she had the power to nose around and be involved with Basketball Operations.
So the FO owns bringing in LeBron, but Jeanie has to own some or all of it as well for being okay with the plan or not keeping up with what her FO employees were doing. |
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Outspoken
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Joined: 11 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Pelinka has no clue what he is doing, seems like he is just winging it and hoping it works because he seems to have no vision. Lakers get turned over and worse every season, but we talking about how hard it is to build chemistry. If Rob felt chemistry was important than he wouldn't break up the team every year. It's hard to build chemistry breaking the team up every year, not simply because Bron is missing games. I don't really wanna blame Rob because he was put in a position that he had no idea what to do and didn't get mentored. The onus falls on Jeanie Buss. She hired someone that is inexperienced as GM, simply off of Kobe's recommendation because she couldn't get Kobe. |
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Cutheon
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Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 12161
Location: Bay Area
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Outspoken wrote: | | Pelinka has no clue what he is doing, seems like he is just winging it and hoping it works because he seems to have no vision. Lakers get turned over and worse every season, but we talking about how hard it is to build chemistry. If Rob felt chemistry was important than he wouldn't break up the team every year. It's hard to build chemistry breaking the team up every year, not simply because Bron is missing games. I don't really wanna blame Rob because he was put in a position that he had no idea what to do and didn't get mentored. The onus falls on Jeanie Buss. She hired someone that is inexperienced as GM, simply off of Kobe's recommendation because she couldn't get Kobe. |
First year worked. Then he got cocky. He shouldn't have blown up that team.
Even then, we were well positioned to probably win, or at least make the finals, last year. Injuries did us in.
Now we're really in the gutter, as LBJ is simply no longer a top 3 player (maybe not a top 5). Which means the roster is fundamentally broken, as it only works if LBJ is operating at near peak efficiency. Continued turnover to clean up the debacle of last season, which only means we continue to be offensively inefficient and defensively catastrophic. |
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MJST
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Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26309
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | If not for injuries last year the Lakers would have had 2 championships in the 3 years they've had LeBron.
Factor that into your decision making too. |
So we factor in fantasy? I will pass on that. |
No, you factor in that we were in a position to win a Championship 2 years in a row, and the one year we didn't wasn't due to roster construction, it was due to injury.
THAT is what you factor in. |
What about this season? |
LeBron has yet to play more than 3 consecutive games this season. Hard to gain chemistry when that's the case with your main guy.
This team is going to have to actually play 10-15 consecutive games together before we can truly see what they can do as a unit with consistency. LeBron's gonna have to play more than 3 games at a time before missing time, for whatever reason.
We can look at Westbrook's first 11 games of the season and then his next 12 to see how he turned it around, same for AD. We can't with LeBron because up until our last game, LeBron had only played 11 games. That's a problem. The most significant one. |
Who brought an old Lebron here and decided to build around him? The FO is getting exactly what they asked for. |
Would you have preferred we didn't get him at all?
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How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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2019
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Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 10804
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | People want to keep blaming the Russ trade. He's had some ugly games but for the most part has been good and recently is paying much more efficiently and in control.
It's not putting the big 3 together that ruined this team. Its either that:
(a) Jeanie pushed Rob to stay under a certain luxury tax tax figure and/or spend little as possible after Russ
or
(b) Rob didn't push Jeanie to spend more because he actually thought this roster would be enough and no reason to spend more. |
There is some truth in that, but for the most part, you're oversimplifying. First of all, you need to separate the Westbrook trade from Westbrook's performance. Even if Westbrook plays well, the trade still cost us a bunch of assets that we could replace only with vet minimum contracts. It also increased our payroll by $8M or so, which jacked up our luxury tax, and led to us making a choice between THT and Caruso. It isn't a question of whether Westbrook is better than KCP, Kuzma, Harrell, and Caruso. The question is whether a team with Westbrook and a bunch of vet min contracts is better than a team with all of those pieces. So far this season, the answer has been No. But there is much left to be written.
Second, we must assume that Pelinka knew what his spending limit was. Once he made the Westbrook trade, the consequences were locked in. So yeah, the Lakers could theoretically have spent an additional $50-100M in payroll and luxury tax (someone else has probably figured out the exact number). But if Pelinka knew that we weren't going to do that, then the consequences are on him. Furthermore, while Caruso would have helped with some of the flaws on this roster, I'm not sure that his defense would have added enough to bring us to an elite level. If we rolled out a backcourt of Westbrook and Caruso, that would be two non-shooters that the defense could ignore on the perimeter. So we would be better with Caruso, but I don't think he would have been a cure-all. |
To your first point, you're not wrong. If Rob knew that there was indeed a figure Jeanie couldn't/wouldn't go over, then he should have tailored his overall approach to that. I think you're saying he chose superstar Russ + vet min depth over LeBron/AD + quality depth in their primes. I also agree there. But why? As I posted above, there was a way to have both. That required spending more (ownership issue) but also talent/fit evaluation which falls on Rob. Half of LG were calling to sign Hartenstein. Nearly everyone has been listing defensive wings for us to go after for the last 4 years. Hell I was on here praying for a Danny Green/1st trade for Buddy Hield before Schroder happed. I don't say that to toot our horns but rather Rob does seem to take the home run direction every year and then quickly fill in around that move.
When we had max cap space after Kawhi stood us up, there was still time and cash to rebound nicely. But he also could have built a sustained winner that summer instead of going all in on Kawhi the way he did. This summer he could have done the same but whether it was financial limitations or lack of vision, he wasn't able to build the type of depth/team that can compete every night for 82 games.
I guess my point is that while Rob, Vogel, and even LeBron deserve responsibility for this terrible season (thus far), Jeanie really should have gone all in and spent the money. I guess who am I to tell her to spend hundred of million more but with the lakers tv deal sponsors, and the merch/ticket sales that all come with a championship season, I think it's all a wash in the end.
Which leads to the second point about Caruso. It's not just the one move of keeping AC alone that wins us a title. It the domino effect of keeping him. You keep him via bird rights you now have the mMLE (our only tool to improve in FA outside vet mins) to give to a guy who plugs another hole. I also mentioned Dennis and how also your to address a major need without needing assets or cap space. Hell, trade his ass at eh deadline but at least get something from him whether it's good 6th man play or something else that fits better. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | If not for injuries last year the Lakers would have had 2 championships in the 3 years they've had LeBron.
Factor that into your decision making too. |
So we factor in fantasy? I will pass on that. |
No, you factor in that we were in a position to win a Championship 2 years in a row, and the one year we didn't wasn't due to roster construction, it was due to injury.
THAT is what you factor in. |
What about this season? |
LeBron has yet to play more than 3 consecutive games this season. Hard to gain chemistry when that's the case with your main guy.
This team is going to have to actually play 10-15 consecutive games together before we can truly see what they can do as a unit with consistency. LeBron's gonna have to play more than 3 games at a time before missing time, for whatever reason.
We can look at Westbrook's first 11 games of the season and then his next 12 to see how he turned it around, same for AD. We can't with LeBron because up until our last game, LeBron had only played 11 games. That's a problem. The most significant one. |
Who brought an old Lebron here and decided to build around him? The FO is getting exactly what they asked for. |
I thought that Magic had already set the wheels in motion to bring LeBron in.
For something as major as bringing in LeBron, I would think whichever employee that was running Basketball Operations would let the owner (Jeanie) know what they were working on. If Jeanie had told them to forget LeBron and stick with what they were doing with the rebuild with youth, would they have defied her and brought in LeBron anyway?
I thought that some of the issues that she had with Jim & Mitch were they kept her out of the loop on what was happening on the basketball side. After running them off and bringing in employees (Magic & Pelinka), she had the power to nose around and be involved with Basketball Operations.
So the FO owns bringing in LeBron, but Jeanie has to own some or all of it as well for being okay with the plan or not keeping up with what her FO employees were doing. |
I don’t disagree with that
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | If not for injuries last year the Lakers would have had 2 championships in the 3 years they've had LeBron.
Factor that into your decision making too. |
So we factor in fantasy? I will pass on that. |
No, you factor in that we were in a position to win a Championship 2 years in a row, and the one year we didn't wasn't due to roster construction, it was due to injury.
THAT is what you factor in. |
What about this season? |
LeBron has yet to play more than 3 consecutive games this season. Hard to gain chemistry when that's the case with your main guy.
This team is going to have to actually play 10-15 consecutive games together before we can truly see what they can do as a unit with consistency. LeBron's gonna have to play more than 3 games at a time before missing time, for whatever reason.
We can look at Westbrook's first 11 games of the season and then his next 12 to see how he turned it around, same for AD. We can't with LeBron because up until our last game, LeBron had only played 11 games. That's a problem. The most significant one. |
Who brought an old Lebron here and decided to build around him? The FO is getting exactly what they asked for. |
Would you have preferred we didn't get him at all? |
There have been younger options that we could have had a shot at. Jimmy Butler comes to mind, stars who are actually in their prime. But i get that the Lakers go for big names, they have for years. But if the FO is going to own bringing in a post-prime Lebron then they don’t get slack because he gets hurt. Last season and this season are good reminders how fortunate the team was that they had a 4-month break before the bubble tournament.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Bard207
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | If not for injuries last year the Lakers would have had 2 championships in the 3 years they've had LeBron.
Factor that into your decision making too. |
So we factor in fantasy? I will pass on that. |
No, you factor in that we were in a position to win a Championship 2 years in a row, and the one year we didn't wasn't due to roster construction, it was due to injury.
THAT is what you factor in. |
What about this season? |
LeBron has yet to play more than 3 consecutive games this season. Hard to gain chemistry when that's the case with your main guy.
This team is going to have to actually play 10-15 consecutive games together before we can truly see what they can do as a unit with consistency. LeBron's gonna have to play more than 3 games at a time before missing time, for whatever reason.
We can look at Westbrook's first 11 games of the season and then his next 12 to see how he turned it around, same for AD. We can't with LeBron because up until our last game, LeBron had only played 11 games. That's a problem. The most significant one. |
Who brought an old Lebron here and decided to build around him? The FO is getting exactly what they asked for. |
Would you have preferred we didn't get him at all? |
There have been younger options that we could have had a shot at. Jimmy Butler comes to mind, stars who are actually in their prime. But i get that the Lakers go for big names, they have for years. But if the FO is going to own bringing in a post-prime Lebron then they don’t get slack because he gets hurt. Last season and this season are good reminders how fortunate the team was that they had a 4-month break before the bubble tournament. |
Yes, both LeBron's age and that he had played plenty of basketball weren't closely guarded secrets that the FO would have been unable to find out and incorporate into their long range plans. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | | Which leads to the second point about Caruso. It's not just the one move of keeping AC alone that wins us a title. It the domino effect of keeping him. You keep him via bird rights you now have the mMLE (our only tool to improve in FA outside vet mins) to give to a guy who plugs another hole. I also mentioned Dennis and how also your to address a major need without needing assets or cap space. Hell, trade his ass at eh deadline but at least get something from him whether it's good 6th man play or something else that fits better. |
Okay, but the price tag starts to get pretty crazy under that scenario. Let's suppose we keep Caruso for $10M. We spent the taxpayer MLE on Nunn, so that's a wash. Let's assume that we could have sign-and-traded Schroder to someone for $10M, or that we could have shipped him at the trade deadline for his salary of $16M. So that's an extra $20M in payroll on the low end and $26M on the high end. I think you'd be looking at a total of well over $100M in luxury tax and salary. Someone like V+ could tell you how the numbers work. I just can't bring myself to get upset with Jeanie Buss for not being willing to do that.
I have a lot of problems with the way that we've managed assets. Heck, I have a lot of problems just with the fact that Russell Freaking Westbrook is on the team. But set that aside. If we have a maximum amount that we are willing to spend in terms of payroll and luxury tax, and if Pelinka commits us to $120M for just three players, the cupboard is going to be bare.
It could all work out in the end. I believe that Lebron, Davis, and Westbrook can play together better than what we've seen. Yet this is what Pelinka committed us to: sinking or swimming based on three big stars and a minimalist supporting cast. So far, we haven't seen the worst-case scenario. If the big three have injury issues comparable to last season, we could end up shipping a lottery pick to the Pelicans. As it stands, we're only two games out of the lottery even though we have played a cupcake schedule.
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Outspoken
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Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 8450
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutheon wrote: | | Outspoken wrote: | | Pelinka has no clue what he is doing, seems like he is just winging it and hoping it works because he seems to have no vision. Lakers get turned over and worse every season, but we talking about how hard it is to build chemistry. If Rob felt chemistry was important than he wouldn't break up the team every year. It's hard to build chemistry breaking the team up every year, not simply because Bron is missing games. I don't really wanna blame Rob because he was put in a position that he had no idea what to do and didn't get mentored. The onus falls on Jeanie Buss. She hired someone that is inexperienced as GM, simply off of Kobe's recommendation because she couldn't get Kobe. |
First year worked. Then he got cocky. He shouldn't have blown up that team.
Even then, we were well positioned to probably win, or at least make the finals, last year. Injuries did us in.
Now we're really in the gutter, as LBJ is simply no longer a top 3 player (maybe not a top 5). Which means the roster is fundamentally broken, as it only works if LBJ is operating at near peak efficiency. Continued turnover to clean up the debacle of last season, which only means we continue to be offensively inefficient and defensively catastrophic. |
I don't think he got cocky, he got lucky with 1st championship. The 1st championship team was assembled after we were done waiting for Kawhi. He picked up everybody that was left and we could get because the "good" talent were already signed. So he assembled the best that we can get. What he wanted was Lebron, Kawhi, and AD + filler. Then we ended up getting the team that we got. Luckily, it worked out. It luckily fit with Vogel. Then we had more luck from that 3-4 month break and we happened to win the championship.
The next year, he broke up the team (assumingly) because that was not the team he wanted to put together. It just so happened to be a team that was assembled based on waiting for Kawhi. He felt there were better "fitting" players around Bron, and the team could be better. So he broke up the championship squad and started plugging in talent. Some felt that we could have possibly won if not for injuries, others disagree, and both are right because it is hypothetical. The reality is, we didn't and that team was really flawed. He made key mistakes assembling the team. Trading Danny Green, careless with Javale, and the biggest mistake was not re-signing Dwight. Amongst promising DS he would start and toying with Marc Gasol, because of the Drummond signing. Drummond wasn't a good signing, but Rob felt he would give what Dwight gave, because he was putting up empty stats over there with the Cavs and Detroit. Jeanie compared him to Kareem. Lol what!? Danny Green could be justified due to getting DS, though telling him he'll start was a bad move. Javale could be justified with the acquisition of Marc Gasol, though it hurt losing out on Dwight.
Then we just scrapped the whole squad, outside of AD and Bron, and started building it from the ground up. Didn't really care about fitting talent, he cared more about names and what it says in the boxscore. He always envisioned getting 3 stars and this was his chance at all cost. He felt with Bron, AD, and Russ, + filler we would be very dominant. Got rid of key defenders and role players, in order to save money. We decided to go ahead and get who we can get again; like we did in 19/20 and hope it works out; like the 19/20 team.
His whole vision was 3 stars. That is it. He doesn't care about defense, apparently offense neither because he dismantled chemistry and continuously does by turning over the team every year. He doesn't care about fit. He has shown to be one of the worst puzzle builder, but I put the onus on Jeanie. She hired 2 inexperienced people in Magic AND Rob. Both were not good hires, but she is treating Lakers like a mom and pop shop and going about it from a "who she knows, not what they know." |
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Bard207
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Outspoken wrote: | | Cutheon wrote: | | Outspoken wrote: | | Pelinka has no clue what he is doing, seems like he is just winging it and hoping it works because he seems to have no vision. Lakers get turned over and worse every season, but we talking about how hard it is to build chemistry. If Rob felt chemistry was important than he wouldn't break up the team every year. It's hard to build chemistry breaking the team up every year, not simply because Bron is missing games. I don't really wanna blame Rob because he was put in a position that he had no idea what to do and didn't get mentored. The onus falls on Jeanie Buss. She hired someone that is inexperienced as GM, simply off of Kobe's recommendation because she couldn't get Kobe. |
First year worked. Then he got cocky. He shouldn't have blown up that team.
Even then, we were well positioned to probably win, or at least make the finals, last year. Injuries did us in.
Now we're really in the gutter, as LBJ is simply no longer a top 3 player (maybe not a top 5). Which means the roster is fundamentally broken, as it only works if LBJ is operating at near peak efficiency. Continued turnover to clean up the debacle of last season, which only means we continue to be offensively inefficient and defensively catastrophic. |
I don't think he got cocky, he got lucky with 1st championship. The 1st championship team was assembled after we were done waiting for Kawhi. He picked up everybody that was left and we could get because the "good" talent were already signed. So he assembled the best that we can get. What he wanted was Lebron, Kawhi, and Lebron + filler. Then we ended up getting the team that we got. Luckily, it worked out. It luckily fit Vogel. Then we had more luck from that 3-4 month break and we happened to win the championship.
The next year, he broke up the team because that was not the team he wanted to put together. It just so happened to be a team that was assembled based on waiting for Kawhi. He felt there were better "fitting" players around Bron, and the team could be better. So he broke up the championship squad and started plugging in talent. Some felt that we could have possibly won if not for injuries, others disagree, and both are right because it is hypothetical. The reality is, we didn't and that team was really flawed. He made key mistakes assembling the team. Trading Danny Green, careless with Javale, and the biggest mistake was not re-signing Dwight. Amongst promising DS he would start and toying with Marc Gasol, because of the Drummond signing. Wasn't a good signing, but he felt he would give what Dwight gave, because he was putting up empty stats over there with the Cavs and Detroit. Jeanie compared him to Kareem. Lol what!? Danny Green could be justified due to getting DS, though telling him he'll start was a bad move.
Then we just scrapped the whole squad, outside of AD and Bron, and started building it from the ground up. Didn't really care about fitting talent, he cared more about names and what it says in the boxscore. He always envisioned getting 3 stars and this was his chance at all cost. He felt with Bron, AD, and Russ, + filler we would be very dominant. Got rid of key defenders and role players, in order to save money. We decided to go ahead and get who we can get again; like we did in 19/20 and hope it worked out; like the 19/20.
His whole vision was 3 stars. That is it. He doesn't care about defense, apparently offense neither because he dismantled chemistry and continuously does by turning over the team ever year. He doesn't care about fit. He has shown to be one of the worst puzzle builders, but I put the onus on Jeanie. She hired 2 inexperienced people in Magic AND Rob. Both were not good hires, but she is treating Lakers like a mom and pop shop and going about it from a "who she knows, not what they know." |
If I remember correctly, she had wanted Jim out for a while. She should have been doing her homework and had a good plan for new leadership if she ever got her wish.
She finally got her wish and brought in inexperienced people in Magic & Pelinka. Either she didn't have a plan for new people to run Basketball Operations or her plan was poor.
I am not so much defending Magic & Pelinka, just wanting to make sure that Jeanie's gets her share as well. |
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ThePageDude
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 2573
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
<snip>
It could all work out in the end. I believe that Lebron, Davis, and Westbrook can play together better than what we've seen. Yet this is what Pelinka committed us to: sinking or swimming based on three big stars and a minimalist supporting cast. So far, we haven't seen the worst-case scenario. If the big three have injury issues comparable to last season, we could end up shipping a lottery pick to the Pelicans. As it stands, we're only two games out of the lottery even though we have played a cupcake schedule. |
All good points. |
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J.C. Smith
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12670
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Who brought an old Lebron here and decided to build around him? The FO is getting exactly what they asked for. |
Correct. They got a championship. |
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MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26309
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | If not for injuries last year the Lakers would have had 2 championships in the 3 years they've had LeBron.
Factor that into your decision making too. |
So we factor in fantasy? I will pass on that. |
No, you factor in that we were in a position to win a Championship 2 years in a row, and the one year we didn't wasn't due to roster construction, it was due to injury.
THAT is what you factor in. |
What about this season? |
LeBron has yet to play more than 3 consecutive games this season. Hard to gain chemistry when that's the case with your main guy.
This team is going to have to actually play 10-15 consecutive games together before we can truly see what they can do as a unit with consistency. LeBron's gonna have to play more than 3 games at a time before missing time, for whatever reason.
We can look at Westbrook's first 11 games of the season and then his next 12 to see how he turned it around, same for AD. We can't with LeBron because up until our last game, LeBron had only played 11 games. That's a problem. The most significant one. |
Who brought an old Lebron here and decided to build around him? The FO is getting exactly what they asked for. |
Would you have preferred we didn't get him at all? |
There have been younger options that we could have had a shot at. Jimmy Butler comes to mind, stars who are actually in their prime. But i get that the Lakers go for big names, they have for years. But if the FO is going to own bringing in a post-prime Lebron then they don’t get slack because he gets hurt. Last season and this season are good reminders how fortunate the team was that they had a 4-month break before the bubble tournament. |
Yes, both LeBron's age and that he had played plenty of basketball weren't closely guarded secrets that the FO would have been unable to find out and incorporate into their long range plans. |
It's almost like they got Anthony Davis specifically because of that 
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Bard207
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Bard207 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | MJST wrote: |
No, you factor in that we were in a position to win a Championship 2 years in a row, and the one year we didn't wasn't due to roster construction, it was due to injury.
THAT is what you factor in. |
What about this season? |
LeBron has yet to play more than 3 consecutive games this season. Hard to gain chemistry when that's the case with your main guy.
This team is going to have to actually play 10-15 consecutive games together before we can truly see what they can do as a unit with consistency. LeBron's gonna have to play more than 3 games at a time before missing time, for whatever reason.
We can look at Westbrook's first 11 games of the season and then his next 12 to see how he turned it around, same for AD. We can't with LeBron because up until our last game, LeBron had only played 11 games. That's a problem. The most significant one. |
Who brought an old Lebron here and decided to build around him? The FO is getting exactly what they asked for. |
Would you have preferred we didn't get him at all? |
There have been younger options that we could have had a shot at. Jimmy Butler comes to mind, stars who are actually in their prime. But i get that the Lakers go for big names, they have for years. But if the FO is going to own bringing in a post-prime Lebron then they don’t get slack because he gets hurt. Last season and this season are good reminders how fortunate the team was that they had a 4-month break before the bubble tournament. |
Yes, both LeBron's age and that he had played plenty of basketball weren't closely guarded secrets that the FO would have been unable to find out and incorporate into their long range plans. |
It's almost like they got Anthony Davis specifically because of that |
Was getting Davis
1. To win now with Lebron?
2. Win now twith Lebron and be the Lead guy when LeBron is done? |
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MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26309
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Bard207 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | MJST wrote: |
No, you factor in that we were in a position to win a Championship 2 years in a row, and the one year we didn't wasn't due to roster construction, it was due to injury.
THAT is what you factor in. |
What about this season? |
LeBron has yet to play more than 3 consecutive games this season. Hard to gain chemistry when that's the case with your main guy.
This team is going to have to actually play 10-15 consecutive games together before we can truly see what they can do as a unit with consistency. LeBron's gonna have to play more than 3 games at a time before missing time, for whatever reason.
We can look at Westbrook's first 11 games of the season and then his next 12 to see how he turned it around, same for AD. We can't with LeBron because up until our last game, LeBron had only played 11 games. That's a problem. The most significant one. |
Who brought an old Lebron here and decided to build around him? The FO is getting exactly what they asked for. |
Would you have preferred we didn't get him at all? |
There have been younger options that we could have had a shot at. Jimmy Butler comes to mind, stars who are actually in their prime. But i get that the Lakers go for big names, they have for years. But if the FO is going to own bringing in a post-prime Lebron then they don’t get slack because he gets hurt. Last season and this season are good reminders how fortunate the team was that they had a 4-month break before the bubble tournament. |
Yes, both LeBron's age and that he had played plenty of basketball weren't closely guarded secrets that the FO would have been unable to find out and incorporate into their long range plans. |
It's almost like they got Anthony Davis specifically because of that |
Was getting Davis
1. To win now with Lebron?
2. Win now twith Lebron and be the Lead guy when LeBron is done? |
Both
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lakersfever714
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 11755
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Outspoken wrote: | | Cutheon wrote: | | Outspoken wrote: | | Pelinka has no clue what he is doing, seems like he is just winging it and hoping it works because he seems to have no vision. Lakers get turned over and worse every season, but we talking about how hard it is to build chemistry. If Rob felt chemistry was important than he wouldn't break up the team every year. It's hard to build chemistry breaking the team up every year, not simply because Bron is missing games. I don't really wanna blame Rob because he was put in a position that he had no idea what to do and didn't get mentored. The onus falls on Jeanie Buss. She hired someone that is inexperienced as GM, simply off of Kobe's recommendation because she couldn't get Kobe. |
First year worked. Then he got cocky. He shouldn't have blown up that team.
Even then, we were well positioned to probably win, or at least make the finals, last year. Injuries did us in.
Now we're really in the gutter, as LBJ is simply no longer a top 3 player (maybe not a top 5). Which means the roster is fundamentally broken, as it only works if LBJ is operating at near peak efficiency. Continued turnover to clean up the debacle of last season, which only means we continue to be offensively inefficient and defensively catastrophic. |
I don't think he got cocky, he got lucky with 1st championship. The 1st championship team was assembled after we were done waiting for Kawhi. He picked up everybody that was left and we could get because the "good" talent were already signed. So he assembled the best that we can get. What he wanted was Lebron, Kawhi, and AD + filler. Then we ended up getting the team that we got. Luckily, it worked out. It luckily fit with Vogel. Then we had more luck from that 3-4 month break and we happened to win the championship.
The next year, he broke up the team (assumingly) because that was not the team he wanted to put together. It just so happened to be a team that was assembled based on waiting for Kawhi. He felt there were better "fitting" players around Bron, and the team could be better. So he broke up the championship squad and started plugging in talent. Some felt that we could have possibly won if not for injuries, others disagree, and both are right because it is hypothetical. The reality is, we didn't and that team was really flawed. He made key mistakes assembling the team. Trading Danny Green, careless with Javale, and the biggest mistake was not re-signing Dwight. Amongst promising DS he would start and toying with Marc Gasol, because of the Drummond signing. Drummond wasn't a good signing, but Rob felt he would give what Dwight gave, because he was putting up empty stats over there with the Cavs and Detroit. Jeanie compared him to Kareem. Lol what!? Danny Green could be justified due to getting DS, though telling him he'll start was a bad move. Javale could be justified with the acquisition of Marc Gasol, though it hurt losing out on Dwight.
Then we just scrapped the whole squad, outside of AD and Bron, and started building it from the ground up. Didn't really care about fitting talent, he cared more about names and what it says in the boxscore. He always envisioned getting 3 stars and this was his chance at all cost. He felt with Bron, AD, and Russ, + filler we would be very dominant. Got rid of key defenders and role players, in order to save money. We decided to go ahead and get who we can get again; like we did in 19/20 and hope it works out; like the 19/20 team.
His whole vision was 3 stars. That is it. He doesn't care about defense, apparently offense neither because he dismantled chemistry and continuously does by turning over the team every year. He doesn't care about fit. He has shown to be one of the worst puzzle builder, but I put the onus on Jeanie. She hired 2 inexperienced people in Magic AND Rob. Both were not good hires, but she is treating Lakers like a mom and pop shop and going about it from a "who she knows, not what they know." |
Wow...you spoke my mind. Everything points to Jeanie is clueless about basketball and she hired someone with as much basketball knowledge as she does as GM and together they've gotten really lucky to win a championship together. Now they're just slowly ripping the team apart to a point where the players have no value. As of right now, assuming they're still building around Lebron and AD, I think the only tradeable asset they have is probably THT. lol.
To be honest, if the Warrior Dynasty were still together like today back in 2019, then we might have had a tough time winning the ring too. Woulda Coulda Shoulda I know but it's another way of looking at Jeanie and Rob's first championship together. How much credit did they really deserve? It's like how the Bucks won their first championship due to a plethora of injuries of the top-10 players in the league. How much credit should they deserve? The point I'm trying to get to is people could get lucky, really lucky. Don't give people too much undeserved credits. |
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Koalita
Starting Rotation
Joined: 17 Dec 2010
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:18 am Post subject: |
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My take on Rob's job is: his aim has always been to gather a big 3 and fill the roster with ring chasers.
When Kahwi didn't work out, he put the best team possible. We got some good pickups before the trade deadline and we got a ring, next year, he tried to get a 3rd star, was (all the FO, not him personally) unwilling to spend big $ for ring chasers/role players (Howard, Rondo, etc) and tried to assemble the best he could: on paper Schroeder, Harrell and Marc Gasol were a great addition, akin to a 3rd star, but after some COVID he still chased a big name and (messed up) brought in AD2. From my POV that killed any real chance our team had to win the chip, as Vogel had to play too much politics (Dennis and now AD2 as well), plus DS didn't live up to the expectations (had he commanded the 2nd unit with Harrell, and not picked Drummond, maybe we'd have a better shot, just my 0.02$)
This year, Rondo and Dwight are back, but we are paying them what Rob thinks is their value as ring chasers. We finally got that 3rd wheel in RW and now he got to tweak the team before the trade deadline (two years ago it was a hit, last year a miss, what will happen this year? I hope it's a home run!) |
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Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Koalita wrote: | | My take on Rob's job is: his aim has always been to gather a big 3 and fill the roster with ring chasers. |
Sure. He certainly hasn't shown a flair for conventional team building.
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ThePageDude
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 2573
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Koalita wrote: | | My take on Rob's job is: his aim has always been to gather a big 3 and fill the roster with ring chasers. |
Sure. He certainly hasn't shown a flair for conventional team building. |
He has made really wasteful asset management decisions. Unconventional/hit-the-ball-out-of-the-ballpark types of thinkers get that kind of latitude based on a history of success e.g. Steve Jobs. Now to his credit he does have one championship under his belt, so really the first test of this unconventional thinking is this season (last season was lost to injuries) - so let's see how it goes. I really hope it works. |
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wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Koalita wrote: | | My take on Rob's job is: his aim has always been to gather a big 3 and fill the roster with ring chasers. |
Sure. He certainly hasn't shown a flair for conventional team building. |
He has made really wasteful asset management decisions. Unconventional/hit-the-ball-out-of-the-ballpark types of thinkers get that kind of latitude based on a history of success e.g. Steve Jobs. Now to his credit he does have one championship under his belt, so really the first test of this unconventional thinking is this season (last season was lost to injuries) - so let's see how it goes. I really hope it works. |
I think most (at least me) support his understanding that you need HOFers in prime to win. We only had 1, and we won 1. Now we have 2. I don't think we ever had Bron in his prime. The fact that we won a title with a HOFer out of his prime as our most valuable player, is awesome, IMO.
Now, he's trying to get #2. He felt he had to get another mega star to get it done. I hate that it cost key defensive pieces like Caruso and KCP. That's the real loss here. If we could have just pulled off a WB trade without also losing KCP/Caruso, we would be talking about all of this differently. I wonder what Rob's options were. Looking back, which is never a good idea. If we could have offered THT via sign&trade, kept KCP, and then re-signed Caruso.
AD/Bron/KCP/Caruso/Westbrook - that's your core. Melo/Ariza/Dwight/Monk round out the rotation. I mean, yeah easy in 20-20 hindsight to say this. But man, I wish we still had Caruso/KCP to lean on. I'm now left wishing Monk, Reaves and THT develop fast enough to become that level of player soon.
The way Rob salvages this for me. He finds a way to get some Caruso/KCP level starters by trade deadline. Yeah yeah, easy to say. But if he can show he can make the move after first getting the trio of WB/LBJ/AD together, then I continue to support him. If he shows he's going to make a really questionable move and change head coaches and blame it on someone else or injuries to Bron, ugh. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | I think most (at least me) support his understanding that you need HOFers in prime to win. We only had 1, and we won 1. Now we have 2. I don't think we ever had Bron in his prime. The fact that we won a title with a HOFer out of his prime as our most valuable player, is awesome, IMO. |
Westbrook is in his prime? I hope everything works out in the end, but Westbrook is 33 and wasn't an all-star or all-NBA last year. This doesn't mean that he is washed up and can't play, but your theory doesn't actually work. It makes a lot more sense to look at it the way Koalita did: Pelinka wanted to build a big three and fill out the roster with ring chasers.
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