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Luminous8
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:11 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
It took them years just to get to Jrue. Cousins, Mirotic, Randle are guys that moved the needle, but these are Top 25-Top 50 NBA player types? DMC wasn't Sacramento version DMC either.

It takes 2 Top 10 guys, at bare minimum, and zero thought was taken into consideration for trying to get that guy, OR stacking picks to get one in the lottery OR creating a development team to build their young players, OR rebuilding the Smoothie King center, bottom to top.

No wonder why AD was injury prone. Wrong sport trainers. They didn't even invest in their own players.

So yeah, if I'm Zion, and I'm likely told that I'm the franchise player from the jump, it's all talk until they actually do it, regardless of Zion's age.


But AD has already begun to show these same injury issues here. And I strongly disagree about Boogie, I actually thought he was the best he ever was in New Orleans and they were finally showing signs of life before the Achilles. They’re not the greatest ran franchise, but Zion is two years and has barely played a full 82 game schedule. They have pretty good pieces in there, he and bi were the top scoring duo in the league most of the year. It’s on him to give max effort (defense included) to maximize the teams ceiling. It’s in Griff to get the pieces around He and BI to make their lives easier, not harder. Agreed they’ve failed to do so yet, this is a very make or break year for that front office and the outlook of the team in general long term.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:12 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
RashardA wrote:
The NBA is a wild place now days.

Players still on their rookie deals complaining about the pieces around them.

I mean damn, Zion's been in the league what? 2 years?

You havent given the organization a chance to build anything.

Its been TWO YEARS.

It's comical.


If I were him I would do the same. They had so many years behind AD and couldn't build anything either, nevermind rebuild the decrepit Smoothie Center and use actual NBA athletic trainers, not the ones from the Saints.

Poverty franchise. I would absolutely threaten to leave if I were Zion.


Seriously. Griff is already looking super overrated. He knows how to collect assets, but maybe not how to put a team together. This is a big off-season for him, but I think it's clear that he needs to show some improvement or Zion will really start putting pressure on the franchise. I get it, what allegiance does Zion owe to New Orleans? It's not like they took a chance on a young kid and developed him into a star ... NO was so terrible they secured the #1 pick and simply drafted him. From that point on, it's been a bit of a nightmare.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:14 am    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
It took them years just to get to Jrue. Cousins, Mirotic, Randle are guys that moved the needle, but these are Top 25-Top 50 NBA player types? DMC wasn't Sacramento version DMC either.

It takes 2 Top 10 guys, at bare minimum, and zero thought was taken into consideration for trying to get that guy, OR stacking picks to get one in the lottery OR creating a development team to build their young players, OR rebuilding the Smoothie King center, bottom to top.

No wonder why AD was injury prone. Wrong sport trainers. They didn't even invest in their own players.

So yeah, if I'm Zion, and I'm likely told that I'm the franchise player from the jump, it's all talk until they actually do it, regardless of Zion's age.


But AD has already begun to show these same injury issues here. And I strongly disagree about Boogie, I actually thought he was the best he ever was in New Orleans and they were finally showing signs of life before the Achilles. They’re not the greatest ran franchise, but Zion is two years and has barely played a full 82 game schedule. They have pretty good pieces in there, he and bi were the top scoring duo in the league most of the year. It’s on him to give max effort (defense included) to maximize the teams ceiling. It’s in Griff to get the pieces around He and BI to make their lives easier, not harder. Agreed they’ve failed to do so yet, this is a very make or break year for that front office and the outlook of the team in general long term.


Unfortunately got hurt. Still, the Pels played better without him, AD at the 5, Mirotic at 4, and actually made a playoff run.

If I were Zion, I'd protect my body and knees before committing to playing defense. If the franchise doesn't commit to bigger plans, why should the players? At least BI got his contract. He's also playing some of the worst defense of his career too.

This goes WAY beyond the front office, and all the way to ownership.

I wish I could afford to buy a team.

Quote:
But AD has already begun to show these same injury issues here.


Stephen Curry had multiple ankle issues in GSW. GSW hired the right staff, assistant coaches, trainers. Curry was then healthy enough to develop through it and become a Top 5 player.

AD, developed all of his offensive skills, despite the training staff. The last time LAL had that kind of problem, it was Andrew Bynum, and his knees burned down.

This is absolutely why when LAL was making all the big changes to get ready for a window, the most critical one is hiring a real training staff. Once, they got Dr. Seto, it was a sign of the first real investment in the players.

So, the Pels, tried, and they're still running like a poverty franchise, 2 years after AD is gone, and still haven't learned their lesson, hence, Zion isn't interested in investing himself in the franchise.

Makes sense to me.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:14 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
If I were him I would do the same. They had so many years behind AD and couldn't build anything either, nevermind rebuild the decrepit Smoothie Center and use actual NBA athletic trainers, not the ones from the Saints.

Poverty franchise. I would absolutely threaten to leave if I were Zion.


New Orleans is problematic as a sports town. The NFL is one thing, because there are only 8 home games per year, and well, it's football in the deep south. But for anything else, there are just a lot of problems for a sports team in terms of population and economic demographics. Most of you have been there only as tourists heading for the French Quarter or a convention. Those of you who have actually spent time there will know what I mean. The bottom line is that the Pelicans have about half of the revenue of the Lakers, and a significant chunk comes from the national TV deal.

So while I pull for small market franchises to find a way to make it, the Pelicans are going to be a problem franchise for the foreseeable future. Unless they get a Ballmer-type owner who doesn't mind losing huge amounts of money, they'll be stuck in a long-term rut. Over the last 18 years, they've had two future Hall of Famers (Paul and Davis) and one possible Hall of Famer (Williamson). And they've just been treading water, even in their best years.

The Jazz had the good sense to bail on New Orleans. I don't know if that will happen with the Pelicans, but it's not a pretty picture.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:16 am    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Seems like SVG pulled a "Byron Scott" and lost that connection with his players. That game vs the Knicks where Bledsoe was instructed to foul, but didn't was really indicative of that dysfunction.

https://www.nola.com/sports/pelicans/article_a42c8c30-c970-11eb-80a3-4317f063a7bb.html


Really stresses the importance of getting the right coach for your new players. Just getting a "Hard ass" that supposedly teaches discipline is not the right move. Same thing happened with Boylen in Chicago. You risk alienating your players.

I still think Griff looked smart after his trade with us (he got pretty much everything he wanted), but man, he has been taking Ls ever since. That Jrue Holiday trade looked like a fleecing but you also put Zion on the same path AD was placed on.


Yep. Zion will now have 3 coaches in 3 seasons. If they don't establish some consistency with him in terms of coaching and team culture, he'll bolt and the Pels will be the new Sacramento Kings. Griffin has a lot of work to do.

Personally, Billy Donovan was my dude. He transformed Lavine's game, and the addition of Vucevic made them competitive. The Bulls finished with the same record as the Pels. Completely inexcusable.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:19 am    Post subject:

RashardA wrote:
Build the right team around Simmons, in the right system and he will flourish.

That said, he still needs to work on his weaknesses but if you build the right team around him, I think his strengths far outweigh his weaknesses.


I'm not invested in bashing Simmons. I respect your opinion. However, I think it would be hard to build a team around a star player who is not a scorer. At the critical point in a game, especially in a big game like the playoffs, you want your star to be able to take over. It doesn't need to be a Kobe-style takeover, but you know what I mean. Simmons just isn't that kind of player.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:23 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
If I were him I would do the same. They had so many years behind AD and couldn't build anything either, nevermind rebuild the decrepit Smoothie Center and use actual NBA athletic trainers, not the ones from the Saints.

Poverty franchise. I would absolutely threaten to leave if I were Zion.


New Orleans is problematic as a sports town. The NFL is one thing, because there are only 8 home games per year, and well, it's football in the deep south. But for anything else, there are just a lot of problems for a sports team in terms of population and economic demographics. Most of you have been there only as tourists heading for the French Quarter or a convention. Those of you who have actually spent time there will know what I mean. The bottom line is that the Pelicans have about half of the revenue of the Lakers, and a significant chunk comes from the national TV deal.

So while I pull for small market franchises to find a way to make it, the Pelicans are going to be a problem franchise for the foreseeable future. Unless they get a Ballmer-type owner who doesn't mind losing huge amounts of money, they'll be stuck in a long-term rut. Over the last 18 years, they've had two future Hall of Famers (Paul and Davis) and one possible Hall of Famer (Williamson). And they've just been treading water, even in their best years.

The Jazz had the good sense to bail on New Orleans. I don't know if that will happen with the Pelicans, but it's not a pretty picture.


Then move the team. It's not like there aren't other locations available. New Orleans did their best riding the wave of Chris Paul, but once the consistent playoff years were gone, that was it.

And personally, considering they've had HOFers in their youth through that team, tells me, they don't know how to make it better outside of just getting that star.

But I don't feel bad for billionaire owners. So, if Zion doesn't want to play defense because billionaire owners won't fully commit bottom to top in their own franchise players, so be it.

That's why they all leave.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:34 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Then move the team. It's not like there aren't other locations available. New Orleans did their best riding the wave of Chris Paul, but once the consistent playoff years were gone, that was it.

And personally, considering they've had HOFers in their youth through that team, tells me, they don't know how to make it better outside of just getting that star.

But I don't feel bad for billionaire owners. So, if Zion doesn't want to play defense because billionaire owners won't fully commit bottom to top in their own franchise players, so be it.

That's why they all leave.


Sure. I was agreeing with you.

At some point, the rich vs. poor issue is going to pop up again. Tuesday of this week marked the tenth anniversary of the start of the Big Lockout Thread. Rich vs. poor was a big part of the battle back then. Stern managed to get enough concessions from the players (and the big market owners) to bring the lockout to an end. Then the big TV contracts and exploding franchise values soothed a lot of tensions. At some point, however, we're going to start hearing about "competitive balance" again.

But sure, if I was Zion, I'd get my money and then get the hell out of New Orleans.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:37 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
RashardA wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
levon wrote:
so I ask again, what's Simmons' value?


Sixers won’t win until Simmons learns how to shoot. Playing 4 on 5 in a shooting league is tough.


Morey will look to trade him.

He's probably kickin himself for not pulling the trigger on Harden.

Fertitta was a petty b.


Maybe, but I think the Rockets made the right call unless they had a plan in place to flip Simmons for assets. Simmons is not the kind of player you would want to build around. I realize that I have a lower opinion of Simmons than a lot of people, but set that aside. Even if you think Simmons is a stud, his skill set wouldn't be optimized on a rebuilding team.

I'd easily take Simmons over LeVert. Ymmv.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:46 am    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LGFan wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Maybe instead of blaming the Lakers, the Pels should look in house and see why they can’t keep their best players happy.


Griffin is the dumbest GM i have seen. Because he is friends with Woj he seems more interested in creating a narrative about him instead of actually making better decisions

Trading holiday for picks and taking back Bledsoe
Trading for Adams and giving him extension
hiring SVG


Jrue wanted out so Griffin did him a solid for future draft capital.

The Adams extension and hiring SVG were braindead choices. And trading back from the #4 pick - which could've been Darius Garland or De'Andre Hunter - for Jaxson Hayes and NAW is looking pretty bad, too, though it's still early.


I’ll give you Hunter and while garland is terrific on offense having yet another turnstile on d wouldn’t be the answer. The jury is out in NAW though I do believe he’s a future near 20ppg scorer starting or off the bench. He’s actually a pretty good defender on ball and doesn’t mind to hit the boards either.

As for Hayes I was adamant to start the year he was a TERRIBLE choice but from all star break on I’ve really changed my tune. That kid really has some high potential. He’s began to shoot from deep, his switching ability really showed and made a difference for the pels. Ultra athletic and I has terrific touch. What’s intrigued me the most is his ballhamdling which I never thought was much at all but he’s spoken about patterning himself somewhat after a guy like James Johnson who helped mentor him post trade deadline.

Time will tell on that deal, but I’m not as bummed about those draft picks as I was earlier on. Kira in the lotto last year was the pick I didn’t fully understand and still don’t. He’s a blur, decent in catch and shoot, plays good defense, but he doesn’t seem to be much of a pg at all. At least not as a rookie.

Great points, and I'm not calling it in any team's favor yet. Hayes is the highest upside guy in that group as well as the youngest and most raw, so his long-term development probably determines how (royal) we see the trade a few more seasons from now.

The Pelicans may have seen Kira as a downhill threat who could also play off ball as needed. Lonzo and NAW don't really get to the rim or FT line. I had them taking one of Kira or Maxey at that spot and they may have taken the wrong guy, though SVG wasn't the right coach for a rookie PG.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:51 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Then move the team. It's not like there aren't other locations available. New Orleans did their best riding the wave of Chris Paul, but once the consistent playoff years were gone, that was it.

And personally, considering they've had HOFers in their youth through that team, tells me, they don't know how to make it better outside of just getting that star.

But I don't feel bad for billionaire owners. So, if Zion doesn't want to play defense because billionaire owners won't fully commit bottom to top in their own franchise players, so be it.

That's why they all leave.


Sure. I was agreeing with you.

At some point, the rich vs. poor issue is going to pop up again. Tuesday of this week marked the tenth anniversary of the start of the Big Lockout Thread. Rich vs. poor was a big part of the battle back then. Stern managed to get enough concessions from the players (and the big market owners) to bring the lockout to an end. Then the big TV contracts and exploding franchise values soothed a lot of tensions. At some point, however, we're going to start hearing about "competitive balance" again.

But sure, if I was Zion, I'd get my money and then get the hell out of New Orleans.


Yeah. I'd switch agents, opt for better trainers, sacrifice to live on endorsements to make up for salary, and pick a better franchise/location. At least the star types are far more likely to make a ton off endorsements.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
RashardA wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
levon wrote:
so I ask again, what's Simmons' value?


Sixers won’t win until Simmons learns how to shoot. Playing 4 on 5 in a shooting league is tough.


Morey will look to trade him.

He's probably kickin himself for not pulling the trigger on Harden.

Fertitta was a petty b.


Maybe, but I think the Rockets made the right call unless they had a plan in place to flip Simmons for assets. Simmons is not the kind of player you would want to build around. I realize that I have a lower opinion of Simmons than a lot of people, but set that aside. Even if you think Simmons is a stud, his skill set wouldn't be optimized on a rebuilding team.

I'd easily take Simmons over LeVert. Ymmv.


1000%. Then for any new trade/FA I'm looking at, I'd tell them, they're going to get all of the shots anyway. Few are better than Ben at facilitating to that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:03 am    Post subject:

The Pels face the problems that we would ultimately have faced if we didn't trade for AD. You have a bountiful of assets, but at the end of the day, its difficult to pay everyone (and it comes quick). If you hold on to the pieces to long, you may lose them for nothing. The pendulum on the AD trade clearly has swung in our favor (not that it always didn't point in that direction anyways).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:11 am    Post subject:

Quote:
At some point a young NBA star will turn down a max extension and take qualifying offer, to become an unrestricted free agent the following season

I think its eventually gonna happen, the question is which star is gonna do it


https://twitter.com/ralph_masonjr/status/1405590841050112002?s=21

Good point. I see it happening too.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:11 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

I'd easily take Simmons over LeVert. Ymmv.


They flipped Levert, then flipped Oladipo. You can make a pretty good argument that those flips weren't great moves. But, as Mike keeps saying, trades are based on the perspective of the teams. Other than John Wall (which is the price they pay for getting rid of Westbrook), they have pretty much scraped the roster clean. So it wasn't really about Simmons vs. Levert.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:15 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Quote:
At some point a young NBA star will turn down a max extension and take qualifying offer, to become an unrestricted free agent the following season

I think its eventually gonna happen, the question is which star is gonna do it


https://twitter.com/ralph_masonjr/status/1405590841050112002?s=21

Good point. I see it happening too.


Maybe, but that's a high risk strategy. Guys like John Wall would be happy to explain this.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:17 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Quote:
At some point a young NBA star will turn down a max extension and take qualifying offer, to become an unrestricted free agent the following season

I think its eventually gonna happen, the question is which star is gonna do it


https://twitter.com/ralph_masonjr/status/1405590841050112002?s=21

Good point. I see it happening too.

It won't happen because teams can't risk losing a guy like Zion for nothing. If he turns down his extension, they'll trade him before he has to take his QO.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:18 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Quote:
At some point a young NBA star will turn down a max extension and take qualifying offer, to become an unrestricted free agent the following season

I think its eventually gonna happen, the question is which star is gonna do it


https://twitter.com/ralph_masonjr/status/1405590841050112002?s=21

Good point. I see it happening too.

It won't happen because teams can't risk losing a guy like Zion for nothing. If he turns down his extension, they'll trade him before he has to take his QO.


Which he would welcome lol.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:19 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Quote:
At some point a young NBA star will turn down a max extension and take qualifying offer, to become an unrestricted free agent the following season

I think its eventually gonna happen, the question is which star is gonna do it


https://twitter.com/ralph_masonjr/status/1405590841050112002?s=21

Good point. I see it happening too.

Lamelo? I don’t see Zion doing it with his injury history. He needs to get the money as soon as they offer it to him. IMO. Maybe Luka? I still think he supermaxes with the Mavs though. Anthony Edwards would be an interesting one if wants to try it in a couple years
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:

I'd easily take Simmons over LeVert. Ymmv.


They flipped Levert, then flipped Oladipo. You can make a pretty good argument that those flips weren't great moves. But, as Mike keeps saying, trades are based on the perspective of the teams. Other than John Wall (which is the price they pay for getting rid of Westbrook), they have pretty much scraped the roster clean. So it wasn't really about Simmons vs. Levert.

He's the best player of the three, the youngest, under contract the longest, and would've been the best trade asset if things didn't work out with their timeline. The Rockets also seem invested in Christian Wood who would've been one of the better frontcourt partners in the league for Simmons.

It was front office malpractice to turn down a deal centered around Simmons for a disgruntled Harden.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:25 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Quote:
At some point a young NBA star will turn down a max extension and take qualifying offer, to become an unrestricted free agent the following season

I think its eventually gonna happen, the question is which star is gonna do it


https://twitter.com/ralph_masonjr/status/1405590841050112002?s=21

Good point. I see it happening too.

It won't happen because teams can't risk losing a guy like Zion for nothing. If he turns down his extension, they'll trade him before he has to take his QO.


Which he would welcome lol.

Right. It would be a Porzingis situation.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:13 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Rick Carlisle -- who led Dallas to the 2011 NBA championship -- informed Mavericks owner Mark Cuban today that he won't be returning as coach next season, Carlisle told ESPN. Carlisle had two years left on his contract. He spent 13 seasons as Mavericks coach.


👀
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:15 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Quote:
Rick Carlisle -- who led Dallas to the 2011 NBA championship -- informed Mavericks owner Mark Cuban today that he won't be returning as coach next season, Carlisle told ESPN. Carlisle had two years left on his contract. He spent 13 seasons as Mavericks coach.


👀


What's going on in Dallas lol
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:17 pm    Post subject:

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1405618479944847364?s=21

Hmm Carlisle didn’t list Luka by name...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:18 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1405618479944847364?s=21

Hmm Carlisle didn’t list Luka by name...

caught that. Good coach on the market.
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