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| Are you happy about Vogel becoming our coach? |
| No |
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12% |
[ 62 ] |
| Yes |
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54% |
[ 271 ] |
| Neutral |
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32% |
[ 163 ] |
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| Total Votes : 496 |
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lakersfan8
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 Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Firing Vogel only happens if AD/Bron support it. And Jeanie would have to sign off. IMO, that's 3 people who I have yet to see would want that.
If the Lakers were even thinking of letting Vogel go, they would never let Kidd go. The rumor was Kidd was to take over when Vogel leaves in a few years.
Fizdale as head coach when you let Kidd go? I don't see it, TBH. Last summer Kidd was in talks for a new HC job and Vogel was in talks for an extension. I feel if they weren't high on Vogel anymore or had doubts about him, they would have let him go then, and gone with Kidd. Kidd was seen in 2019 as the future Lakers HC.
The Lakers current expectation is that they will be patient and not let the talk get to them, and they believe in their plan/system. That things will be better as the season evolves. That's the talk from AD/Bron.
I can't see a coach being fired at that mindset. If we are in March and still .500, then that's another thing. Clearly the plan failed to improve. Right now they seem to believe in their plan, even though us fans are having a hard time seeing how this will work.
My concern is that I think this is starting to get out of Vogel's control, in the sense, he can't really do anymore than he is. He's tried a ton of lineups. He's tried to change AD's role around. He's gotten Westbrook involved. In the end, they took away his best defenders and his coaching staff, and now want him to create some magic with a roster that doesn't scream defense. It's putting him between a rock and a hard place. How can we become an elite team without elite D? Vogel's teams need elite D. So, unless Rob helps him out with some moves, we're sort of stuck. |
The opinion might change though. The reason for our 1st round exit last year was because of injury and Vogel actually was getting credit for making it a top defensive team. If Vogel doesn't get fired, does that indicate Pekinka admits he is accountable for the current failure? |
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lakersfan8
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| av3773 wrote: | | Seems like a lot of folks are excusing Vogel, using the "new team" and "injury" excuse....and that's what it is an excuse....there might be some merit to that point of view if we weren't not only losing to cellar teams, but also cellar teams that have a number of key injuries of their own....while we have consistently rolled out at least 2 current nba all star talent.....a coach in any sport should be able to motivate a team to wins in that circumstance...he's not getting it done in that regard....he is also not showing he is very capable of adapting his coaching style successfully when the roster isn't constructed of a lot of good on ball defenders.....complaining about the roster is pointless, it is what it is and any good NBA coach should be able to adapt their play when they have three current nba all stars....in fact I can't even think of a team in recent memory that has one of the top players in the nba, another who is top 10ish and another who is top 15-20ish play so horribly...can anyone else come up with a team that has performed so poorly....not to mention we are getting solid play from some of the additional role players on any given night...melo, reaves, monk, tht......at least one of those players has had it clicking on a night.....so if vogel cant get it done for whatever reason he needs to go......the Lakers are not going to wait until the Summer....we have all star talent now...we are not going to wait until bron is a year older, etc....I give him a week or so...if we don't see significant improvement I think he's gone. |
The bolded is certainly not true. I believe in the philosophy that you find the right coach for a team.
Also, team construction does matter. For example, if you put Shaq, Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson together on the same team, would this team perform really well? All-star talent doesn't mean anything if they don't fit on the court. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: |
If the Lakers were even thinking of letting Vogel go, they would never let Kidd go. The rumor was Kidd was to take over when Vogel leaves in a few years.
. |
Dallas hired Kidd as their head coach in June.
That was before we traded for Westbrook, and even knew what the roster would be, let alone how the team would perform.
The Lakers weren't thinking about letting Vogel go at that point. |
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lakersfan8
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:25 am Post subject: |
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The problem with our offense is spacing. No one respect RW as an outside shooter. Now, AD's shooting ability has also shrunk. So the opponents can now just pack the paint for defense. Playing DJ or Howard along AD would only make things worse. LBJ would also have no choice but to settle for jumpers. Everything is connected. Offense has never been Vogel's strength but I'm very conservative on how much better our offense can get even if we change a head coach.
Vogel's defensive system works. Give him the right players and he can make a top defensive team which is important to win the championship. If Vogel can't make this team plays defense, then no other coaches can. We had been through many incompetent coaches since Phil Jackson left. This could mean the whole dark era all over again if we fire Vogel. Do you guys have faith that by changing a coach, this team can win the championship? If not, bear in mind we only have 3 players under contract next season, we can bring in 10 new players that we think fit into Vogel's system and make a push next year.
Overall, I think firing Vogel is a very short-sighted move without much gain in the short term. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:03 am Post subject: |
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IMO as far as coaches go the Lakers blew it when they low balled Tyronn Lue.
The Lakers went all in with this year's roster. It's a one year championship or bust team. So far it hasn't panned out. I haven't given up but the chances of winning the Larry O'Brien this season look bleak.
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Kurt can coach these boys up. He might be exactly what AD needs. Teach him how to play a little tougher. |
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Sina
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Just re-watched the game against Kings. Don’t know why there was almost no rotation in the OTs. Besides, Anthony and Monk were overlooked. They almost haven’t touched the ball a single time in 3 OTs |
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Lonzo-Lite
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:51 am Post subject: |
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3 out of 4 Lakers possession in the 3 OT’s were basically LeBron iso’s. Horrible and predictable, mostly ending in LeBron taking a 3 point shot.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
If the Lakers were even thinking of letting Vogel go, they would never let Kidd go. The rumor was Kidd was to take over when Vogel leaves in a few years.
. |
Dallas hired Kidd as their head coach in June.
That was before we traded for Westbrook, and even knew what the roster would be, let alone how the team would perform.
The Lakers weren't thinking about letting Vogel go at that point. |
`
It is rumored that they didn't want to give him a longterm extension. If this is the case, then why would you allow the best candidate to take over for him, let go? Kidd has Lebron's respect and has had some success in Milwaukee and Brooklyn. He's a HOF player. He won a ring as an assistant here. Why go with Fizdale if you're looking for a change?
And this isn't about Westbrook. This is about a perception that the Lakers have never valued Frank as much as some other coaches. I don't know if this is the case, because they could have easily let him become a FA at the end of this season and cutting ties with him even easier.
The franchise that hasn't been willing to give a championship winning coach big money in an extension, allows Carushow to walk, is going to now fire him and pay him (I'm guessing 10M, next year money and this year) while bringing in another name (Stotts/Brooks) for a 20M-25M guarantee deal? I don't personally see it, to be honest. If they wanted to make a change, Kidd would have been the head coach as he was best prepared to take over.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Lonzo-Lite wrote: | | 3 out of 4 Lakers possession in the 3 OT’s were basically LeBron iso’s. Horrible and predictable, mostly ending in LeBron taking a 3 point shot. |
And a lot of those were taken with 9-12 seconds left on the shot clock. Stu Lantz could barely keep his cool. He started an anxious countdown before some of those shots: 10..9…8. Some of the most subtle mocking I’ve ever witnessed. It’s funny and sad. |
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| cathy78 wrote: | How about we support Vogel because he is not a bad coach.
How about the whole front office and organization supports him so he can actually do the work he is supposed to do.
How about we get him an offensive assistant that can compliment him. Just because he is not the offensive genius we fans expect doesn't mean we have to throw away all the things he does very well.
How about the front office constructs a better roster next time. |
This is not how real life works. Not just in sports but everywhere in the corporate world, top management will typically insist that the problem wasn't with the "philosophy" but with the "execution" - it's the coach that gets let go.
It's not fair or right, but it's the way things work. |
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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My issue with the later Kobe years was 1 person with the ball and 4 people in a corner weak side. This is far worse, because none of these guys are actually Kobe. Lebron can do it himself, but he’s way too old. We have zero ball movement or creativity in offense. It’s so hard to watch. Hero ball only works at the end of games and right now we can’t even beat Kings in regulation, and three OTs. Not a great end of game/hero ball scenario.
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Frank can't control Bron. When the game is on the line James takes over and starts his HERO-ISO. Gimme da damn ball and git da hell outa the way.
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roger_federer
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | I have said before, probably in this thread, but firing Vogel would accomplish nothing. |
since when Rob does anything to accomplish. He is known for fixing something that is not broken to achieve something that is not possible |
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av3773
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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I’m not even sure the point you are trying to make….I mean you list three alll star centers as an example….how is that even remotely relevant….these are three all star level players at the same position…
| lakersfan8 wrote: | | av3773 wrote: | | Seems like a lot of folks are excusing Vogel, using the "new team" and "injury" excuse....and that's what it is an excuse....there might be some merit to that point of view if we weren't not only losing to cellar teams, but also cellar teams that have a number of key injuries of their own....while we have consistently rolled out at least 2 current nba all star talent.....a coach in any sport should be able to motivate a team to wins in that circumstance...he's not getting it done in that regard....he is also not showing he is very capable of adapting his coaching style successfully when the roster isn't constructed of a lot of good on ball defenders.....complaining about the roster is pointless, it is what it is and any good NBA coach should be able to adapt their play when they have three current nba all stars....in fact I can't even think of a team in recent memory that has one of the top players in the nba, another who is top 10ish and another who is top 15-20ish play so horribly...can anyone else come up with a team that has performed so poorly....not to mention we are getting solid play from some of the additional role players on any given night...melo, reaves, monk, tht......at least one of those players has had it clicking on a night.....so if vogel cant get it done for whatever reason he needs to go......the Lakers are not going to wait until the Summer....we have all star talent now...we are not going to wait until bron is a year older, etc....I give him a week or so...if we don't see significant improvement I think he's gone. |
The bolded is certainly not true. I believe in the philosophy that you find the right coach for a team.
Also, team construction does matter. For example, if you put Shaq, Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson together on the same team, would this team perform really well? All-star talent doesn't mean anything if they don't fit on the court. |
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Outspoken
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| roger_federer wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | I have said before, probably in this thread, but firing Vogel would accomplish nothing. |
since when Rob does anything to accomplish. He is known for fixing something that is not broken to achieve something that is not possible |
This is hilarious.
Last edited by Outspoken on Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
If the Lakers were even thinking of letting Vogel go, they would never let Kidd go. The rumor was Kidd was to take over when Vogel leaves in a few years.
. |
Dallas hired Kidd as their head coach in June.
That was before we traded for Westbrook, and even knew what the roster would be, let alone how the team would perform.
The Lakers weren't thinking about letting Vogel go at that point. |
`
It is rumored that they didn't want to give him a longterm extension. If this is the case, then why would you allow the best candidate to take over for him, let go? Kidd has Lebron's respect and has had some success in Milwaukee and Brooklyn. He's a HOF player. He won a ring as an assistant here. Why go with Fizdale if you're looking for a change?
And this isn't about Westbrook. This is about a perception that the Lakers have never valued Frank as much as some other coaches. I don't know if this is the case, because they could have easily let him become a FA at the end of this season and cutting ties with him even easier.
The franchise that hasn't been willing to give a championship winning coach big money in an extension, allows Carushow to walk, is going to now fire him and pay him (I'm guessing 10M, next year money and this year) while bringing in another name (Stotts/Brooks) for a 20M-25M guarantee deal? I don't personally see it, to be honest. If they wanted to make a change, Kidd would have been the head coach as he was best prepared to take over. |
Do you think that the Lakers would pay Kidd $8.5 mil per season?
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lakersfever714
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Fire Vogel and do trial and error with new head coaches for six more consecutive years? Sounds like a plan. Hey, if you hire enough coaches, eventually you're gonna find the right one. |
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Laker's Fan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Vogel only got an extension through 2022-23. The Lakers elected not to offer Caruso a deal that extended beyond 2022-23. Tucker got a 3-year deal, but you can bet Klutch fought for that and he didn't get a trade kicker. In fact, if you examine the Laker roster, you'll notice only Davis and Tucker are signed past 2022-23. That doesn't happen by accident.
Whatever the reason for it, I don't see Jeanie deviating from the short term nature of their commitments. The Lakers have also never been ones to pay multiple coaches at once. They only let go of Byron when they could get out of his contract due to a clause on lack of wins. They "mutually parted ways" with Luke once he already had the Sacramento job lined up (shot out to Vlade!) and agreed to walk on the remainder of his contract. They did fire Mike Brown while under contract but that was also Dr. Buss' last season and his family was doing what they could to send him out a winner.
This classic idea that the coach gets the axe when the team underperforms isn't consistent with how the Lakers have operated in the past, nor does it fit their apparent current financial planning. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| av3773 wrote: | | Seems like a lot of folks are excusing Vogel, using the "new team" and "injury" excuse....and that's what it is an excuse....there might be some merit to that point of view if we weren't not only losing to cellar teams, but also cellar teams that have a number of key injuries of their own....while we have consistently rolled out at least 2 current nba all star talent.....a coach in any sport should be able to motivate a team to wins in that circumstance...he's not getting it done in that regard....he is also not showing he is very capable of adapting his coaching style successfully when the roster isn't constructed of a lot of good on ball defenders.....complaining about the roster is pointless, it is what it is and any good NBA coach should be able to adapt their play when they have three current nba all stars....in fact I can't even think of a team in recent memory that has one of the top players in the nba, another who is top 10ish and another who is top 15-20ish play so horribly...can anyone else come up with a team that has performed so poorly....not to mention we are getting solid play from some of the additional role players on any given night...melo, reaves, monk, tht......at least one of those players has had it clicking on a night.....so if vogel cant get it done for whatever reason he needs to go......the Lakers are not going to wait until the Summer....we have all star talent now...we are not going to wait until bron is a year older, etc....I give him a week or so...if we don't see significant improvement I think he's gone. |
LeBron has been injured and not a top five caliber player so far.
AD has not been a top 10 caliber player so far.
Westbrook has been mostly bad up until the past week.
Fire Vogel, whatever. But the "3 All-Stars" aren't exactly the prime Heatles
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Laker_Jocker
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | Fire Vogel and do trial and error with new head coaches for six more consecutive years? Sounds like a plan. Hey, if you hire enough coaches, eventually you're gonna find the right one. |
Worked for Sacram…..oh wait it didn’t…
As many have pointed to, the roster construction is a huge issue. Only so much coaching will be heard by one dimensional veteran (old) players.
But, I think the real condemnation on Vogel is not making a bigger deal out of lack of effort/attention to detail - most directly attributable to LBJ, AD, WB, THT and Dwight. None of the players are not held accountable for basic things like boxing out, lazy turnovers and defensive rebounding.
There is also a sort of entitlement attitude as opposed to a “win at all costs” attitude- which has nothing to do with rotations or player health or this crap of “getting to know each other”.
All of that could be forgiven were it not for this mostly clock draining ISO ball these guys have played so far…. That, more than anything else, may force a coaching change (fair or not). |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker_Jocker wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | Fire Vogel and do trial and error with new head coaches for six more consecutive years? Sounds like a plan. Hey, if you hire enough coaches, eventually you're gonna find the right one. |
Worked for Sacram…..oh wait it didn’t…
As many have pointed to, the roster construction is a huge issue. Only so much coaching will be heard by one dimensional veteran (old) players.
But, I think the real condemnation on Vogel is not making a bigger deal out of lack of effort/attention to detail - most directly attributable to LBJ, AD, WB, THT and Dwight. None of the players are not held accountable for basic things like boxing out, lazy turnovers and defensive rebounding.
There is also a sort of entitlement attitude as opposed to a “win at all costs” attitude- which has nothing to do with rotations or player health or this crap of “getting to know each other”.
All of that could be forgiven were it not for this mostly clock draining ISO ball these guys have played so far…. That, more than anything else, may force a coaching change (fair or not). |
Sacramento is the organization that the Lakers can point to and say at least we aren’t them.
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Hard_Butter
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Hard_Butter wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | The Lakers are bad right now beyond Vogel, but let's get this over with. Bring on Fizdale.
Let's see what the real problem is. |
Fizdale wouldn't be the answer either. Perhaps losing Kidd and Hollins was a bigger blow than expected. Maybe making sure keeping Dudz on the bench would've helped. All I know is that he's lost the team. Good guy. Great defensive coach, but not a leader. And he's been exposed offensively. Was he dealt a bad hand? Sure. But the team shouldn't be this bad. A new voice, any voice might help ala Bickerstaff.
At the very least, give this poor man an offensive guru.... |
Who else would it be besides Fizdale? He's a LeBron guy going back to Miami and who's out there not currently under contract? D'Antoni? |
I've been championing to poach SAS and take their Pop heir-apparent in Hammon.
They/Vogel f'ked up in not bringing in an offensive assistant.
Atkinson would've been perfect. Him and Kerr are doing big things in the Bay.
Kenny A would be my 2nd choice as the new Lakers HC.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: |
It is rumored that they didn't want to give him a longterm extension. If this is the case, then why would you allow the best candidate to take over for him, let go? |
The Lakers weren't ready to replace Vogel at the start of the season. (For all we know they're still not ready to replace him.)
If the Lakers weren't going to fire Vogel and offer Kidd the head coaching job, I don't see how you think they could have gotten him to turn down the Mavericks top job and stick around here as an assistant. |
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2019
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Hard_Butter wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Hard_Butter wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | The Lakers are bad right now beyond Vogel, but let's get this over with. Bring on Fizdale.
Let's see what the real problem is. |
Fizdale wouldn't be the answer either. Perhaps losing Kidd and Hollins was a bigger blow than expected. Maybe making sure keeping Dudz on the bench would've helped. All I know is that he's lost the team. Good guy. Great defensive coach, but not a leader. And he's been exposed offensively. Was he dealt a bad hand? Sure. But the team shouldn't be this bad. A new voice, any voice might help ala Bickerstaff.
At the very least, give this poor man an offensive guru.... |
Who else would it be besides Fizdale? He's a LeBron guy going back to Miami and who's out there not currently under contract? D'Antoni? |
I've been championing to poach SAS and take their Pop heir-apparent in Hammon.
They/Vogel f'ked up in not bringing in an offensive assistant.
Atkinson would've been perfect. Him and Kerr are doing big things in the Bay.
Kenny A would be my 2nd choice as the new Lakers HC. |
Is Hammon some offensive mastermind or is it the idea of stealing someone from the Pop tree that interests you? Feels like the later. |
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