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PlantedTanks
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 Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | PlantedTanks wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | PlantedTanks wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | PlantedTanks wrote: | I am starting to favor Jared Butler if Tre Mann is gone.
See him as a Malik Beasley type scorer while providing ancillary PG skills and defensive potential. |
Beasley's much more of an athletic advantage off-ball scorer, though he can get going on OtD jumpers when he's feeling it.
This is total recency bias, but Butler reminds me of a bigger Cameron Payne. Having a guy who can come in off the bench and hit pull-up threes and keep defenses honest with the occasional drive to the cup would be nice to have, especially since Butler seems like he'll be better defensively.
I'm skeptical of him (and Mann) as a future NBA starter versus younger guys like Springer and Prkacin who could be there at #22, though. |
I understand your skepticism. I also have my concerns about both being future NBA starters. My expectations at pick 22 is to be solid rotational players with bonus if they evolve into starters.
I do have a different perception between pg/wings vs. pf/centers when it comes to starting and draft position. I see pg and wings needing to be better athletes and better skilled vs. pf and centers. For this reason I tend to believe starters for big men can be found later in the draft. By the last 3rd of the first round the good athletes have been selected or those available are lacking in skill. |
I think it's a sliding scale of skill/athleticism at all positions with positional size providing young players more leeway to succeed.
But yes, the level of skill small guards need to succeed is greater because there are more human beings sized 5'10-6'3 than there are human beings standing 6'10+. The level of skill Trae Young has to have to be a star as a skinny 6'1 average NBA athlete is insane. Most sub-6'5 guards still in college aged 21-23 are there because they don't have that insane skill level and typically benefit from experience/physical maturity against younger CBB players.
The league has also mostly caught up with the fungibility of non-offensive-hub big men so athletic-ish rim protectors have fallen in the Lakers current draft range in several drafts the past 7-8 years. Isaiah Jackson or Usman Garuba would be fine pickups at #22 over Jared Butler. |
I'd take Garuba but can you convince me why Isaiah Jackson over Butler?
Really concerned over his light weight frame and it may take 2-3 years before he is able to physically match up to NBA big men. |
Sorry, lost track of your question and wanted to circle back.
I think he'll be fine matching up physically against most backup big men by year two similar to what we've seen from Claxton. Rebounding wasn't an issue for him in CBB that I could tell, and most teams don't have a post behemoth. I worry somewhat more about how he'll acclimate to the responsibilities of an NBA backline defender, but there were some solid awareness flashes.
In a vacuum you could talk me into Butler as the better draft prospect, and the Lakers certainly need AtB three point shooters, but I also think they need an injection of youth and athleticism in their frontcourt. Jackson looks like he has the physical tools to have a chance on switches and to rotate out to the corners against 5-out offenses. Plus the Lakers miss having a viable vertical threat besides AD. I'm thinking of Jackson winning minutes against ground bound backups like Derrick Favors or being a reasonable deterrent against a Clippers small ball lineup by killing Batum on the offensive glass without taking away switchability. |
Yes I can see the benefits of both Butler and Jackson and it just comes down to the archetype of player you prefer. Jackson I believe will bring defensive value throughout his career and eventually if Lebron is replaced with a Middleton type of scorer he would be the perfect fit and your long term play would be ideal.
I also think of the ideal fit Malik Beasley would be with Lebron and AD. Butler along with Bouknight, Hyland and maybe Cam Thomas are possible facsimiles within the Lakers pick. They all differ in style but could all evolve into the scorer this team needs. I see the Bouknight-Lavne convos and could Thomas be Booker lite in need of discipline/coaching? |
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PlantedTanks
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Not much interest in Daishen Nix here. I like his talent and believe he is an NBA player if he can THT his body physically and continue developing his game.
I know pure PG's are losing favor in the NBA but I can see a viable starter emerging if he understudies behind Lebron for a couple of years. I'd prefer him running the offense than THT. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| PlantedTanks wrote: | Not much interest in Daishen Nix here. I like his talent and believe he is an NBA player if he can THT his body physically and continue developing his game.
I know pure PG's are losing favor in the NBA but I can see a viable starter emerging if he understudies behind Lebron for a couple of years. I'd prefer him running the offense than THT. |
I know he can pass, but there's zero tape of him playing basketball in a competitive setting with his new shape, let alone the advanced skills it takes to be just a backup PG, let alone a starting PG at the NBA level.
Such an uphill climb.
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Mark10 45
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:53 am Post subject: |
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I liked Nix from highlights before I watched his Gleague games... now, not so much. I generally don't like PG's who can't push a pace in the P&R.. and very questionable jumper and defense. THT garners more advantages off the dribble at his position.
I moved Cooper down on my board to 16.. below Bouknight. The Giannis head tilt on Cooper's jumper is so serious.
Last edited by Mark10 45 on Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike@LG
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Mark10 45
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: |
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JT Thor is 6'9 without shoes and has a 7'8 wingpsan.. well then..
Kai Jones legit 6'11 in shoes..... yea he's a unicorn.
Trey Murphy not as good of a reach as you'd like. Are reaches done without shoes now? used to be with shoes.
Roko 6'9 in shoes, Kuzma type length
David Johnson 8'8 reach!! near PF reach. yea reaches must still be done with shoes.
Zaire Williams mediocre wingpsan. 6'10.25
Grimes solid length. 8'5 6'8
Good length for Mcbride. 8'3.5 reach is longer than Clarkson though he's 2 inches shorter, 6'8 wingspan very good
Mediocre length for J. Butler but solid standing reach for height
Juzang might have trouble defending 4s with a 8'4 reach, David Johnson has 4" more reach
mmk. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:05 am Post subject: |
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I have a hard time believing 7'8" wingspan if the SR is 9'2" only.
Ziaire has a PF's standing reach.
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Mark10 45
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | I have a hard time believing 7'8" wingspan if the SR is 9'2" only.
Ziaire has a PF's standing reach. |
not only does he have a PF reach, I missed that, but also 6'9.5 in shoes. He has basically small PF length, Aaron Gordon ish
Roko is 225 ; the strength I saw on tape was true - future small ball 5 in certain lineups
there's a typo on Thor's wingspan, 7'78.whatever - that's not right. maybe it's 7'7. AD has a 7'7 wingpsan with a 9'0 reach himself. Drummond similar |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Mark10 45 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | I have a hard time believing 7'8" wingspan if the SR is 9'2" only.
Ziaire has a PF's standing reach. |
not only does he have a PF reach, I missed that, but also 6'9.5 in shoes. He has basically small PF length, Aaron Gordon ish
Roko is 225 ; the strength I saw on tape was true - future small ball 5 in certain lineups
there's a typo on Thor's wingspan, 7'78.whatever - that's not right. maybe it's 7'7. AD has a 7'7 wingpsan with a 9'0 reach himself. Drummond similar |
Changed to 7'3.25. But at 6'9 in shoes that's Brandon Ingram territory.
Mann measuring out at a little over 6'4 in shoes with the even wingspan isn't unexpected, but still disappointing.
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Last edited by Baron Von Humongous on Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Mark10 45 wrote: | I liked Nix from highlights before I watched his Gleague games... now, not so much. I generally don't like PG's who can't push a pace in the P&R.. and very questionable jumper and defense. THT garners more advantages off the dribble at his position.
I moved Cooper down on my board to 16.. below Bouknight. The Giannis head tilt on Cooper's jumper is so serious. |
Cooper's jumpshot will need to be broken and built from scratch. Any team that drafts him has to do it from day one and needs his buy in.
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Mark10 45
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Mark10 45 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | I have a hard time believing 7'8" wingspan if the SR is 9'2" only.
Ziaire has a PF's standing reach. |
not only does he have a PF reach, I missed that, but also 6'9.5 in shoes. He has basically small PF length, Aaron Gordon ish
Roko is 225 ; the strength I saw on tape was true - future small ball 5 in certain lineups
there's a typo on Thor's wingspan, 7'78.whatever - that's not right. maybe it's 7'7. AD has a 7'7 wingpsan with a 9'0 reach himself. Drummond similar |
Changed to 7'3.25. But at 6'9 in shoes that's Brandon Ingram territory. |
Williams is taller than Ingram I think, by like half inch. JT Thor is AD's true height, 6'10.5 in shoes |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Mark10 45 wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Mark10 45 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | I have a hard time believing 7'8" wingspan if the SR is 9'2" only.
Ziaire has a PF's standing reach. |
not only does he have a PF reach, I missed that, but also 6'9.5 in shoes. He has basically small PF length, Aaron Gordon ish
Roko is 225 ; the strength I saw on tape was true - future small ball 5 in certain lineups
there's a typo on Thor's wingspan, 7'78.whatever - that's not right. maybe it's 7'7. AD has a 7'7 wingpsan with a 9'0 reach himself. Drummond similar |
Changed to 7'3.25. But at 6'9 in shoes that's Brandon Ingram territory. |
Williams is taller than Ingram I think, by like half inch. JT Thor is AD's true height, 6'10.5 in shoes |
I'm seeing 6'9.25 in shoes for Thor when I click the link.
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Mark10 45
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:30 am Post subject: |
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Oh i didn't see they changed his height too. Ingram is 6'7.25 without shoes, so JT Thor is 1.25" taller, near 6'10 in shoes. average for a PF
Randle is 6'7.75 without shoes , Aaron Gordon also - JT is like an inch taller
Jt is also 3 inches taller than Jeremi Grant
https://www.nbadraft.net/2014-nba-draft-combine-measurements/
Last edited by Mark10 45 on Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:38 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Mark10 45 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | I have a hard time believing 7'8" wingspan if the SR is 9'2" only.
Ziaire has a PF's standing reach. |
not only does he have a PF reach, I missed that, but also 6'9.5 in shoes. He has basically small PF length, Aaron Gordon ish
Roko is 225 ; the strength I saw on tape was true - future small ball 5 in certain lineups
there's a typo on Thor's wingspan, 7'78.whatever - that's not right. maybe it's 7'7. AD has a 7'7 wingpsan with a 9'0 reach himself. Drummond similar |
Changed to 7'3.25. But at 6'9 in shoes that's Brandon Ingram territory.
Mann measuring out at a little over 6'4 in shoes with the even wingspan isn't unexpected, but still disappointing. |
That, considering that Mann doesn't have twitch, or outlier strength, or outlier SR to compensate, is why I'm not his biggest fan and think he can get heated on ball.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Mark10 45 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | I have a hard time believing 7'8" wingspan if the SR is 9'2" only.
Ziaire has a PF's standing reach. |
not only does he have a PF reach, I missed that, but also 6'9.5 in shoes. He has basically small PF length, Aaron Gordon ish
Roko is 225 ; the strength I saw on tape was true - future small ball 5 in certain lineups
there's a typo on Thor's wingspan, 7'78.whatever - that's not right. maybe it's 7'7. AD has a 7'7 wingpsan with a 9'0 reach himself. Drummond similar |
Changed to 7'3.25. But at 6'9 in shoes that's Brandon Ingram territory.
Mann measuring out at a little over 6'4 in shoes with the even wingspan isn't unexpected, but still disappointing. |
That, considering that Mann doesn't have twitch, or outlier strength, or outlier SR to compensate, is why I'm not his biggest fan and think he can get heated on ball. |
Yeah, Bones has jumped him on my big board and Lakers centric board. Mann's additional weight isn't giving him any real advantage on either end and neither guy is really a distributor.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Mark10 45 wrote: | Oh i didn't see they changed his height too. Ingram is 6'7.25 without shoes, so JT Thor is 1.25" taller, near 6'10 in shoes. average for a PF
Randle is 6'7.75 without shoes , Aaron Gordon also - JT is like an inch taller
Jt is also 3 inches taller than Jeremi Grant
https://www.nbadraft.net/2014-nba-draft-combine-measurements/ |
Thor is going to move up out of the Lakers draft range.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Mark10 45 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | I have a hard time believing 7'8" wingspan if the SR is 9'2" only.
Ziaire has a PF's standing reach. |
not only does he have a PF reach, I missed that, but also 6'9.5 in shoes. He has basically small PF length, Aaron Gordon ish
Roko is 225 ; the strength I saw on tape was true - future small ball 5 in certain lineups
there's a typo on Thor's wingspan, 7'78.whatever - that's not right. maybe it's 7'7. AD has a 7'7 wingpsan with a 9'0 reach himself. Drummond similar |
Changed to 7'3.25. But at 6'9 in shoes that's Brandon Ingram territory.
Mann measuring out at a little over 6'4 in shoes with the even wingspan isn't unexpected, but still disappointing. |
That, considering that Mann doesn't have twitch, or outlier strength, or outlier SR to compensate, is why I'm not his biggest fan and think he can get heated on ball. |
Yeah, Bones has jumped him on my big board and Lakers centric board. Mann's additional weight isn't giving him any real advantage on either end and neither guy is really a distributor. |
Bones is light, but has the NBA frame/limbs plus the handle/improvisational ability.
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Mark10 45
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Does Bones have a chance to be a decent defender? I like some of his contests but he gets shook easy, something about his high hips..
I'm pretty bullish on Tre Mann's jumper creation in mid and 3pt - it looks like bargain CJ MCcullum stuff.
I'm surprised Bones is only 6'3.5 in shoes, inch shorter than Clarkson. Tremendous length though; I guess that's why he looks so tall - must have high shoulders for that reach. Bones' length is like top 2%tile I'd guess, lol, it's a lot.
And I'm sorry Grant vs Thor ---- Grant is 6'6.5 without shoes, Thor 6'8.5, Ingram 6'7.25.
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LakersMD
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Per Shams:
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| LakersMD wrote: | Per Shams:
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He's had heart problems for years.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Mark10 45 wrote: | Does Bones have a chance to be a decent defender? I like some of his contests but he gets shook easy, something about his high hips..
I'm pretty bullish on Tre Mann's jumper creation in mid and 3pt - it looks like bargain CJ MCcullum stuff.
I'm surprised Bones is only 6'3.5 in shoes, inch shorter than Clarkson. Tremendous length though; I guess that's why he looks so tall - must have high shoulders for that reach. Bones' length is like top 2%tile I'd guess, lol, it's a lot.
And I'm sorry Grant vs Thor ---- Grant is 6'6.5 without shoes, Thor 6'8.5, Ingram 6'7.25. |
CJ McCollum was far more advanced as a shot creator, and not just on a step back; dimensionally better.
Bones probably has zero shot as a man defender but hope off ball.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Man, Keon and Bouknight are tiny dudes. Skinny sub-6'5 SGs with 6'7-6'8 wingspans? KCP was 6'5.5 and 203 lbs coming out of Georgia for comparison. Is there a precedent for guys built like Johnson and Bouknight finding high level success in the pros?
Davion Mitchell is a small human being. Sharife Cooper looks like he chickened out or got a promise.
Ziaire Williams at 6'10 with his movement and ball skills is super interesting if he's not a fake shooter.
Roko is a big boy already - 225 with 7% bf at age 18. That kid could be molded into a rock.
If you're into Ayo Dosunmu, he's got the DLo 6'5 with 6'10+ wingspan going for him.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Man, Keon and Bouknight are tiny dudes. Skinny sub-6'5 SGs with 6'7-6'8 wingspans? KCP was 6'5.5 and 203 lbs coming out of Georgia for comparison. Is there a precedent for guys built like Johnson and Bouknight finding high level success in the pros?
Davion Mitchell is a small human being. Sharife Cooper looks like he chickened out or got a promise.
Ziaire Williams at 6'10 with his movement and ball skills is super interesting if he's not a fake shooter.
Roko is a big boy already. |
The smaller the player, the more outlier the skill has to be to create a successful NBA career.
Things get really fun when you see a draft board and just try to pick the 20 guys that'll actually have a successful NBA career.
I tried, and I'm down to 17.
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Mark10 45
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Christopher is longer than I expected. Above average length.
Solid measurements for Bouknight.
I think people compare Brandon Boston's physical profile to Ingram - but he has average SF length, while Ingram has Center length.. not close to eachother. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Mark10 45 wrote: | Christopher is longer than I expected. Above average length.
Solid measurements for Bouknight.
I think people compare Brandon Boston's physical profile to Ingram - but he has average SF length, while Ingram has Center length.. not close to eachother. |
None of those guys made my remaining Top 20 of the 60 players.
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