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CandyCanes
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:58 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Kyrie for Simmons, who says no?


The 76ers already did: https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264371/76ers-Currently-Have-No-Interest-In-Pursuing-Trade-Of-Ben-Simmons-For-Kyrie-Irving


Why? Gives them the perimeter scorer that they need while getting rid of a major headache.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
When Kobe was nearing retirement back in 2016, he had one of the greatest quotes about basketball. He said something along the lines of basketball being something that players do, not who they are as human beings. In other words, perspective is important. As achievements fade, one needs to focus on something more permanent and important. For Kobe, it was clearly his family and storytelling. The same thing applies to Kyrie. This is an issue that goes well beyond basketball for Kyrie, and I respect him for sticking with his convictions. That's why Durant isn't turning against him, despite the media's best efforts.

From my understanding, the Nordic countries are going with the adverse reaction data and suspending the use of the Moderna vaccines, due to the high risk of myocarditis in those under 30. I'm surprised the NBA hasn't brought this up, as it pertains to young men. Kyrie is 29. Myocarditis isn't reversible, while 99.85% of those who had covid-19 recovered from it. The infection fatality rate of COVID-19 is roughly .14%, putting it in flu category in terms of mortality (see here). The difference is that c19 has a slightly more pronounced effect on the elderly and obese, which is why they need to take the most precautions against it. Other than that, everyone should be free to make their own decisions and weigh the risks/benefits. Calculate your risk here: https://covid19risktools.com:8443/riskcalculator - for Kyrie, his chance of dying is 3 in a million.


On the first point, I don't believe the BS about Kyrie and his convictions. If we'd taken a poll three months ago asking which NBA player was most likely to refuse to take a vaccine and generate a soap opera about it, I bet 75% would have picked Irving. This is the way he rolls. So he supposedly follows some conspiracy theory about the Illuminati using the vaccine to implant microchips in black people to connect them to a super computer in furtherance of a satanic plot. Okay, whatever. Maybe he really believes that, maybe it's just a distraction. Either way, I have a hard time seeing this as his convictions, as opposed to it just being his contrarian, attention-seeking nature.

Oh, and as for the idea that Durant is cool with this, don't jump to conclusions just because Durant isn't calling Kyrie out publicly. We have no idea what Durant really thinks or what Durant is saying to Irving in private. Whatever comments Durant serves up to the media should be taken with a grain of salt.

As for the second part, you're whiffing on the primary purpose of vaccines in this context. If someone wants to refuse the vaccine and run the risk, that's fine . . . as long as they isolate themselves. If you are unvaccinated, you pose a risk to other people, not just to yourself. If you are talking about an NBA team, you are in close (and often physical) contact with probably 20 or so people on a daily basis, and there are probably another 20 or so within near proximity. Vaccines are not a brick wall, of course, but when you refuse to reduce your own risk of infection, you are also refusing to reduce the risk of infection to other people around you. So NYC doesn't require you to get vaccinated if you just want to sit in your apartment, but it does require it if you want to go to MSG and sit in the midst of thousands of people. The same logic applies to NBA players.


Brother, vaccines don't prevent or reduce the risk of transmission. The vaccinated shed the same amount of viral loads as the unvaccinated, if not more. The only thing the vaccines *seem* to do is reduce the severity of symptoms when hospitalized, but even that is being called into question as new data emerges from Israel and UK. The elderly (60-80 range) should get vaccinated to protect themselves from more severe symptoms, but other things seem to be much bigger predictors of hospitalizations, such as serum vitamin D levels and pre-existing conditions (obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc).

The second issue is that we don't know how many in the NBA have natural immunity. The latest figures show they have up to 27 times more protection than the vaccinated. If Kyrie, like 1/3 of the population, has it, then what purpose does the vaccine serve for him other than increasing his risk of myocarditis and other nasty adverse reactions? None of this makes sense from a scientific perspective.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:29 am    Post subject:

Vaccines don’t prevent or reduce transmission? We still doing this?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:38 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Vaccines don’t prevent or reduce transmission? We still doing this?


Yes we are, and it seems to be a very hot topic right now: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1

High viral loads = greater chance of transmission, even by the CDC's own admission here: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

Quote:
Today, some of those data were published in CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR), demonstrating that Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus. This finding is concerning and was a pivotal discovery leading to CDC’s updated mask recommendation. The masking recommendation was updated to ensure the vaccinated public would not unknowingly transmit virus to others, including their unvaccinated or immunocompromised loved ones.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:49 am    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Brother, vaccines don't prevent or reduce the risk of transmission. The vaccinated shed the same amount of viral loads as the unvaccinated, if not more. The only thing the vaccines *seem* to do is reduce the severity of symptoms when hospitalized, but even that is being called into question as new data emerges from Israel and UK. The elderly (60-80 range) should get vaccinated to protect themselves from more severe symptoms, but other things seem to be much bigger predictors of hospitalizations, such as serum vitamin D levels and pre-existing conditions (obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc).

The second issue is that we don't know how many in the NBA have natural immunity. The latest figures show they have up to 27 times more protection than the vaccinated. If Kyrie, like 1/3 of the population, has it, then what purpose does the vaccine serve for him other than increasing his risk of myocarditis and other nasty adverse reactions? None of this makes sense from a scientific perspective.


Oh, good heavens. You probably should start posting your theories in the Covid thread or in whatever they have in the OT forum. There elements of truth in what you are saying, but a lot of what you are saying is not correct.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:22 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Brother, vaccines don't prevent or reduce the risk of transmission. The vaccinated shed the same amount of viral loads as the unvaccinated, if not more. The only thing the vaccines *seem* to do is reduce the severity of symptoms when hospitalized, but even that is being called into question as new data emerges from Israel and UK. The elderly (60-80 range) should get vaccinated to protect themselves from more severe symptoms, but other things seem to be much bigger predictors of hospitalizations, such as serum vitamin D levels and pre-existing conditions (obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc).

The second issue is that we don't know how many in the NBA have natural immunity. The latest figures show they have up to 27 times more protection than the vaccinated. If Kyrie, like 1/3 of the population, has it, then what purpose does the vaccine serve for him other than increasing his risk of myocarditis and other nasty adverse reactions? None of this makes sense from a scientific perspective.


Oh, good heavens. You probably should start posting your theories in the Covid thread or in whatever they have in the OT forum. There elements of truth in what you are saying, but a lot of what you are saying is not correct.


Thats true of all anti-vaxxers
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:27 am    Post subject:

If you have not actually read and understand the medical research journals on the trials and data please do not try to pass off like you know more science than medical professionals who have spent years in school and applying their practices in real life to understanding these things. If all you have read are summaries off facebook and whatever media website to suit your biases you are not "researched" and "knowledgeable" on whatever you're trying to pass off as science and facts.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:45 am    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
governator wrote:
Vaccines don’t prevent or reduce transmission? We still doing this?


Yes we are, and it seems to be a very hot topic right now: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1

High viral loads = greater chance of transmission, even by the CDC's own admission here: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

Quote:
Today, some of those data were published in CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR), demonstrating that Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus. This finding is concerning and was a pivotal discovery leading to CDC’s updated mask recommendation. The masking recommendation was updated to ensure the vaccinated public would not unknowingly transmit virus to others, including their unvaccinated or immunocompromised loved ones.


Ah yes this is what I mean. Posting random journal studies from media websites that suit your implicit biases. If you actually took the time to read the medical article you posted: (WHICH IS NOT PEER-REVIEWED BY THE WAY)

"There may also be differences in viral dynamics with the delta variant that confound the interpretation of
these results. With only one specimen per individual, collected at an arbitrary timepoint following
infection, we cannot know the trajectory of viral loads at the time each “snapshot” was taken.
Others
have speculated that delta infections may involve a shorter eclipse phase before the onset of symptoms
than with previous variants; this could motivate testing earlier during infection than has been the case
with non-delta variants. We also cannot know from these data whether vaccination shortens the
duration of high-level virus shedding, reducing the likelihood of onward transmission
"

Not to mention you posted a CDC article from July when not as much data was availale. How about something more recent the CDC posted on September 15?

The risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Early data suggest infections in fully vaccinated persons are more commonly observed with the Delta variant than with other SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:48 am    Post subject:

Ksig wrote:
If you have not actually read and understand the medical research journals on the trials and data please do not try to pass off like you know more science than medical professionals who have spent years in school and applying their practices in real life to understanding these things. If all you have read are summaries off facebook and whatever media website to suit your biases you are not "researched" and "knowledgeable" on whatever you're trying to pass off as science and facts.


As Kareem said, of the players almost two years into the pandemic and one year of the vaccination being available going "I'm gonna do my own research" NOW, means they've done absolutely none up to this point. didn't care to and don't really intend to and are full of it.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:13 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Multiple sources with direct knowledge of Irving’s decision have told The Athletic that Irving is not anti-vaccine and that his stance is that he is upset that people are losing their jobs due to vaccine mandates. It’s a stance that Irving has explained to close teammates. To him, this is about a grander fight than the one on the court and Irving is challenging a perceived control of society and people’s livelihood, according to sources with knowledge of Irving’s mindset. It is a decision that he believes he is capable to make given his current life dynamics. “Kyrie wants to be a voice for the voiceless,” one source said.


https://theathletic.com/2885561/2021/10/12/kyrie-irving-and-his-vaccine-stance-clarified-why-the-nets-star-has-made-a-decision-that-will-sideline-him/ (Pay wall)

Well, okay. I’m glad that the stuff about the Illuminati using microchips to control black people isn’t his actual reason. This is just Kyrie being Kyrie. If he is willing to forfeit millions to make a point, I guess that’s his privilege.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:07 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Quote:
Multiple sources with direct knowledge of Irving’s decision have told The Athletic that Irving is not anti-vaccine and that his stance is that he is upset that people are losing their jobs due to vaccine mandates. It’s a stance that Irving has explained to close teammates. To him, this is about a grander fight than the one on the court and Irving is challenging a perceived control of society and people’s livelihood, according to sources with knowledge of Irving’s mindset. It is a decision that he believes he is capable to make given his current life dynamics. “Kyrie wants to be a voice for the voiceless,” one source said.


https://theathletic.com/2885561/2021/10/12/kyrie-irving-and-his-vaccine-stance-clarified-why-the-nets-star-has-made-a-decision-that-will-sideline-him/ (Pay wall)

Well, okay. I’m glad that the stuff about the Illuminati using microchips to control black people isn’t his actual reason. This is just Kyrie being Kyrie. If he is willing to forfeit millions to make a point, I guess that’s his privilege.


He said hes not "anti-vax", but he wants to be the voice of the anti-vax movement... right....

This dude is dumber than dirt, just wants to be a contrarian to sound like hes more in the know than you or I.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:25 pm    Post subject:

This is the times. We can't have the slogan "you do you" and then crucify someone actually living that. Its stupid but if he's willing to leave a lot of money on the table an alienate himself that's fine.

EVERYONE knows where he stands so if you put yourself around him unmasked, not distanced etc that's on you. The team did their job.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:22 pm    Post subject:

Ksig wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
governator wrote:
Vaccines don’t prevent or reduce transmission? We still doing this?


Yes we are, and it seems to be a very hot topic right now: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1

High viral loads = greater chance of transmission, even by the CDC's own admission here: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

Quote:
Today, some of those data were published in CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR), demonstrating that Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus. This finding is concerning and was a pivotal discovery leading to CDC’s updated mask recommendation. The masking recommendation was updated to ensure the vaccinated public would not unknowingly transmit virus to others, including their unvaccinated or immunocompromised loved ones.


Ah yes this is what I mean. Posting random journal studies from media websites that suit your implicit biases. If you actually took the time to read the medical article you posted: (WHICH IS NOT PEER-REVIEWED BY THE WAY)

"There may also be differences in viral dynamics with the delta variant that confound the interpretation of
these results. With only one specimen per individual, collected at an arbitrary timepoint following
infection, we cannot know the trajectory of viral loads at the time each “snapshot” was taken.
Others
have speculated that delta infections may involve a shorter eclipse phase before the onset of symptoms
than with previous variants; this could motivate testing earlier during infection than has been the case
with non-delta variants. We also cannot know from these data whether vaccination shortens the
duration of high-level virus shedding, reducing the likelihood of onward transmission
"

Not to mention you posted a CDC article from July when not as much data was availale. How about something more recent the CDC posted on September 15?

The risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Early data suggest infections in fully vaccinated persons are more commonly observed with the Delta variant than with other SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed.


I think you hit the nail on the head. Because the data is a snapshot, it doesn't tell the whole picture.

There was a study in Singapore however that showed Viral load does decrease more rapidly in vaccinated versus unvaccinated people

https://news.yahoo.com/fully-vaccinated-delta-covid-patients-lower-odds-severe-outcomes-study-142319650.html

Interesting the studies that showed similar viral loads between vaccinated & unvaccinated people were indeed snapshots. Looking deeper at the data like below

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v2.full-text

Notice in the figure shown in the full text...the values are for something called cycle threshold time in which the lower the number the higher viral load. The people in the unvaccinated group actually had quite a few people with very very low values (very very high viral loads), but the results still showed no statistical significance.

I think the Singapore study would explain why. If a vaccinated person reduces viral load more rapidly, the time they will be positive on a COVID test will be much shorter versus unvaccinated (the study referenced tested individuals randomly for COVID) because they have less virus and the test may not be able to detect viral loads that small. But these people would have the lowest viral loads and drive the average viral load result much lower (cycle threshold time). For example if a vaccinated person got COVID say 4 days ago and was tested for COVID they may show a negative tests while an unvaccinated person might show a positive result. And these vaccinated people with the lowest viral loads aren't included in the sample, thus, that is why these "snapshot" studies sometimes don't show a difference in viral loads between unvaccinated and vaccinated people.

One thing these studies do show, however, vaccinated people (at least some) do have high enough viral loads to transmit the virus. And the point of these studies than is to show even vaccinated people should consider wearing masks indoors.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:04 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Quote:
Multiple sources with direct knowledge of Irving’s decision have told The Athletic that Irving is not anti-vaccine and that his stance is that he is upset that people are losing their jobs due to vaccine mandates. It’s a stance that Irving has explained to close teammates. To him, this is about a grander fight than the one on the court and Irving is challenging a perceived control of society and people’s livelihood, according to sources with knowledge of Irving’s mindset. It is a decision that he believes he is capable to make given his current life dynamics. “Kyrie wants to be a voice for the voiceless,” one source said.


https://theathletic.com/2885561/2021/10/12/kyrie-irving-and-his-vaccine-stance-clarified-why-the-nets-star-has-made-a-decision-that-will-sideline-him/ (Pay wall)

Well, okay. I’m glad that the stuff about the Illuminati using microchips to control black people isn’t his actual reason. This is just Kyrie being Kyrie. If he is willing to forfeit millions to make a point, I guess that’s his privilege.


So, if unvaccinated are working amongst vaccinated who is most at risk? I'm just trying to see where he is coming from... I'm guessing his heart is in the right place just failing hard at message clarity
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:30 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Quote:
Multiple sources with direct knowledge of Irving’s decision have told The Athletic that Irving is not anti-vaccine and that his stance is that he is upset that people are losing their jobs due to vaccine mandates. It’s a stance that Irving has explained to close teammates. To him, this is about a grander fight than the one on the court and Irving is challenging a perceived control of society and people’s livelihood, according to sources with knowledge of Irving’s mindset. It is a decision that he believes he is capable to make given his current life dynamics. “Kyrie wants to be a voice for the voiceless,” one source said.


https://theathletic.com/2885561/2021/10/12/kyrie-irving-and-his-vaccine-stance-clarified-why-the-nets-star-has-made-a-decision-that-will-sideline-him/ (Pay wall)

Well, okay. I’m glad that the stuff about the Illuminati using microchips to control black people isn’t his actual reason. This is just Kyrie being Kyrie. If he is willing to forfeit millions to make a point, I guess that’s his privilege.


So, if unvaccinated are working amongst vaccinated who is most at risk? I'm just trying to see where he is coming from... I'm guessing his heart is in the right place just failing hard at message clarity


It's in my nature to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I have a hard time doing that with Kyrie. I wonder whether he really wants to be an NBA player any more. If he really wants to stand up for people who don't want to be vaccinated, he should be out talking about it. But he isn't. Here's another quote from The Athletic:

Quote:
Irving has made more than $160 million over his NBA contracts and has a massive Nike shoe endorsement deal, so those who know Irving understand he is not driven right now by money, nor cares for inheriting more, but rather the stand for larger issues in his mind that need his support.


We may look back at this in the future and conclude that this (and his absences last year) were a slow-motion retirement. If that's the case, I can respect that he wants to be done with being an NBA player, but this is one helluva way to do it.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:46 pm    Post subject:

Kyrie thinks he’s a Freedom Fighter but he’s really just Kanye West with extreme handles and a crazy layup package
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:23 am    Post subject:

KingKobe20 wrote:
Kyrie thinks he’s a Freedom Fighter but he’s really just Kanye West with extreme handles and a crazy layup package

Pretty much. It feels like he is trying so hard to be this transcendent person. That tends to happen organically. At least in sports. Kapernick felt authentic. He paid the price but his message has never changed.

kyrie just comes across bored and he knows he has a lot of money to sleep on.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:07 pm    Post subject:

Would Ky be doing this if he didn’t have millions in his bank account? Entirely seems disingenuous. His antics are just a facade. All he is doing is wasting money, roster space and time. No one is going to look back and think ky did something courageous.. people are gonna look back and see he was just a distraction.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:18 pm    Post subject:

I'm seeing quite a bit of misguidance but I'll try to stick to the topic.

Kyrie is trying to make a stand but nobody who is truly effected by these vaccine mandates will ever care about the voice of somebody that has the privilege of falling back on his millions of dollars. The NBA (and arguably his team) doesn't need him. He is supremely talented but otherwise one of the more marginal and unlikable stars in the league. His team has chosen to move on without him and soon everybody else will until he decides he needs the attention again.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:02 pm    Post subject:

Robblake wrote:
Would Ky be doing this if he didn’t have millions in his bank account? Entirely seems disingenuous. His antics are just a facade. All he is doing is wasting money, roster space and time. No one is going to look back and think ky did something courageous.. people are gonna look back and see he was just a distraction.


Problem for Kyrie is he is losing a lot of money if he does sit out.It probably doesn't matter to him since he already has a lot of money, but even if he were to donate that money it will make a big difference to somebody. So the biggest losers in this situation would be the Nets organization since they are the title favorites and his antics if he follows thru will probably cost them the title.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:20 pm    Post subject:

I just hope the media stop talking about him.

People are basing their decision not to get vaccinated because of public figures like him.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:29 pm    Post subject:

It just seems like a weird cause. I don't know how subjective the realities of the vaccine are.

His flat earth IMHO was just to mess with people.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:12 pm    Post subject:

He may think he's providing a voice for the voiceless (who I imagine may not be as wealthy as him), but I think they'd much prefer he earn his money, and donate it to them via appropriate charitable causes to help give them a voice instead.

Also, at some point, I imagine he'll end up taking the vaccine and start to play basketball again. Assuming he does, what voice did he really create for the voiceless (that it's a personal choice, but one you'll inevitably do in order to restore your livelihood and income source)?

I'm chalking it up to early season doldrums, he'll be back post all-star break and fresher than the rest of the league.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject:

lakez34 wrote:
He may think he's providing a voice for the voiceless (who I imagine may not be as wealthy as him), but I think they'd much prefer he earn his money, and donate it to them via appropriate charitable causes to help give them a voice instead.

Also, at some point, I imagine he'll end up taking the vaccine and start to play basketball again. Assuming he does, what voice did he really create for the voiceless (that it's a personal choice, but one you'll inevitably do in order to restore your livelihood and income source)?

I'm chalking it up to early season doldrums, he'll be back post all-star break and fresher than the rest of the league.

that's a good point. If he gets the vaccine is it because he loves the game or his research led him to it.
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Robblake
Sixth Man
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Joined: 05 Aug 2020
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:51 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
Robblake wrote:
Would Ky be doing this if he didn’t have millions in his bank account? Entirely seems disingenuous. His antics are just a facade. All he is doing is wasting money, roster space and time. No one is going to look back and think ky did something courageous.. people are gonna look back and see he was just a distraction.


Problem for Kyrie is he is losing a lot of money if he does sit out.It probably doesn't matter to him since he already has a lot of money, but even if he were to donate that money it will make a big difference to somebody. So the biggest losers in this situation would be the Nets organization since they are the title favorites and his antics if he follows thru will probably cost them the title.


Yep, exactly the point I’m leaning towards. He’s a freaking ball player.. just play ball. The cameras and money has gotten to his head, IMO. Does he not know the only reason he is a household name is due to his natural skill in a sport? It doesn’t make him less important but cmon.. you’re not a revolutionary figure brah
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