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lakerfanaticPT
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:43 pm    Post subject:

After looking at the combine scrimmages.....Grimes would be a REALLY nice addition to the lakers.
Not sure where he projects now but maybe an early 2nd rounder for him. Sweet stroke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I just don't get it with Grimes. 5 star HS player, 3 years NCAA, NBA ready build. .25FTr. 28.6%FG shooting all other 2point shots outside of the rim. No change in actual skill level.

Meanwhile, BJ Boston shows multiple ball handling flashes out of HS...
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/p/bj-boston-a-klutch-client


I look at Grimes as a complementary 3 & D player this team sorely lacks. He high points his 3pt shot with a quick release that I believe he will be able to execute against NBA defenders. I literally had him close to udfa after the tournament games but I do wonder if fatigue played a role in his subpar shooting as they relied on him for much of Houston's offense and all Houston players play pressure defense as that was the key to their success imo.

His defense looks real at least as a on ball defender. I had a similar impression while watching Caruso in the gleague. Moves well laterally despite not being the quickest or twitchy. Had to re-watch the Baylor game and for the most part he was able to stay in front of the Baylor guards.

Albeit I may be relying too much on his scrimmage play.


Great 3pt shooter, zero midrange game, 3 years NCAA with NBA build. If I didn't know this was Grimes, it reads like a marginal rotation player for an NBA team.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:07 am    Post subject:

Trying to talk myself into Duarte via Hield's success as an older SG and, man, Hield shot the (bleep) (bleep) out of the ball his last two years in college. The raw %age wasn't there as a junior, but the volume was nuts - 13+ 3PA/100 poss!

Bones is 13-14 3PA/100 poss his first two seasons, fyi.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:19 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I just don't get it with Grimes. 5 star HS player, 3 years NCAA, NBA ready build. .25FTr. 28.6%FG shooting all other 2point shots outside of the rim. No change in actual skill level.

Meanwhile, BJ Boston shows multiple ball handling flashes out of HS...
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/p/bj-boston-a-klutch-client


I look at Grimes as a complementary 3 & D player this team sorely lacks. He high points his 3pt shot with a quick release that I believe he will be able to execute against NBA defenders. I literally had him close to udfa after the tournament games but I do wonder if fatigue played a role in his subpar shooting as they relied on him for much of Houston's offense and all Houston players play pressure defense as that was the key to their success imo.

His defense looks real at least as a on ball defender. I had a similar impression while watching Caruso in the gleague. Moves well laterally despite not being the quickest or twitchy. Had to re-watch the Baylor game and for the most part he was able to stay in front of the Baylor guards.

Albeit I may be relying too much on his scrimmage play.


Great 3pt shooter, zero midrange game, 3 years NCAA with NBA build. If I didn't know this was Grimes, it reads like a marginal rotation player for an NBA team.



compare him to Trey Murphy - watching Trey he's got nice moments/games of aggressiveness on the glass ; but it's Grimes who has the spectacular offensive rebound %. Grimes also has a much better steal %. Grimes does have ancillary value beyond shooting. His passing was great in the Scrimmages ; which isn't really a surprise because as a Sophomore he had a really good assist %..almost a combo guard assist %. You want those ancillary stats in steals, blocks, boards, assists - when a player's not playing at a high major school, even though Houston plays good high major comp enough.

Then lets look at the tape to see if anything pops in these ancillary facets - yes, Grimes plays with a high motor on film..he should be an above average rebounder for position // at the combine he passed the ball very well.. He does the little things like sprint the floor crazy hard, and dive for loose balls. So with all that said, he's not just a shooter -- but look, in this league, good shooters are rotation players if they're not bad defenders. And Grimes should be a solid defender; he's got some warts that will keep him from approaching elite..But he'll be a solid defender.

So we've got potentially one of the best shooters in the class, who can also shoot off movement - there's good reason to put his shooting above Murphy. And he'll be in the same ballpark as a defender; he has more steal+block stats and knack, and his motor is very high. And he's going to be a good passer when attacking closeouts, which Murphy is not. Murphy has his own appeal, but is it so effective that it dwarfs Grimes as a prospect, no IMO.


another compliment of his ancillary skills.

Quote:
Jonathan Wasserman
@NBADraftWass
Grimes just looked in a different class during these two scrimmages. Three seasons ago he was praised for versatility, criticized for a missing core/bankable skill. Now he's a knockdown shooter and still has some ability to play-make and defend.


above average shooters who are solid defenders... those guys get minutes -- and Grimes' shooting upside is high - even if you don't believe in it, there's an upside case to be made. And on the ball with his usage , and passing stats as a Soph, and scrimmage flashes - he has Joe Ingles P&R passing upside.
Grimes has day 1 skills and upside
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:23 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I just don't get it with Grimes. 5 star HS player, 3 years NCAA, NBA ready build. .25FTr. 28.6%FG shooting all other 2point shots outside of the rim. No change in actual skill level.

Meanwhile, BJ Boston shows multiple ball handling flashes out of HS...
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/p/bj-boston-a-klutch-client


I look at Grimes as a complementary 3 & D player this team sorely lacks. He high points his 3pt shot with a quick release that I believe he will be able to execute against NBA defenders. I literally had him close to udfa after the tournament games but I do wonder if fatigue played a role in his subpar shooting as they relied on him for much of Houston's offense and all Houston players play pressure defense as that was the key to their success imo.

His defense looks real at least as a on ball defender. I had a similar impression while watching Caruso in the gleague. Moves well laterally despite not being the quickest or twitchy. Had to re-watch the Baylor game and for the most part he was able to stay in front of the Baylor guards.

Albeit I may be relying too much on his scrimmage play.


Great 3pt shooter, zero midrange game, 3 years NCAA with NBA build. If I didn't know this was Grimes, it reads like a marginal rotation player for an NBA team.


I believe there are several factors that contributed to the numbers you listed. As a whole Houston was a poor 3pt shooting team which affected the spacing on the court. No lanes to drive or multiple defenders in the mid-range area.

These past 2 years Houston lacked a lead guard with a modicum of lead guard skills. Consequently very little help was afforded each player in generating offense.

Houston lacked a true drive and penetrate guard or wing. Combined with lack of 3pt shooters really hindered their offensive system. Too much reliance on athleticism and hustle which could be neutralized with similar athletic teams (i.e. Baylor).
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:58 pm    Post subject:

Saw some mention Chris Duarte here. I think he would be a great pick at #22 for the Lakers.

Yeah he's old for a rookie (will be 24/25?) but Lakers are in win now mode maybe his added maturity will help.

Having seen him play often because he's in the Pac12, he is what we need. A consistent catch and shoot guy from 3 range.

The other guy I like is Jared Butler, really impressive during the tourney he came up big and has great poise.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:25 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I just don't get it with Grimes. 5 star HS player, 3 years NCAA, NBA ready build. .25FTr. 28.6%FG shooting all other 2point shots outside of the rim. No change in actual skill level.

Meanwhile, BJ Boston shows multiple ball handling flashes out of HS...
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/p/bj-boston-a-klutch-client


I look at Grimes as a complementary 3 & D player this team sorely lacks. He high points his 3pt shot with a quick release that I believe he will be able to execute against NBA defenders. I literally had him close to udfa after the tournament games but I do wonder if fatigue played a role in his subpar shooting as they relied on him for much of Houston's offense and all Houston players play pressure defense as that was the key to their success imo.

His defense looks real at least as a on ball defender. I had a similar impression while watching Caruso in the gleague. Moves well laterally despite not being the quickest or twitchy. Had to re-watch the Baylor game and for the most part he was able to stay in front of the Baylor guards.

Albeit I may be relying too much on his scrimmage play.


Great 3pt shooter, zero midrange game, 3 years NCAA with NBA build. If I didn't know this was Grimes, it reads like a marginal rotation player for an NBA team.


I believe there are several factors that contributed to the numbers you listed. As a whole Houston was a poor 3pt shooting team which affected the spacing on the court. No lanes to drive or multiple defenders in the mid-range area.

These past 2 years Houston lacked a lead guard with a modicum of lead guard skills. Consequently very little help was afforded each player in generating offense.

Houston lacked a true drive and penetrate guard or wing. Combined with lack of 3pt shooters really hindered their offensive system. Too much reliance on athleticism and hustle which could be neutralized with similar athletic teams (i.e. Baylor).


Generally, shot creators at the NCAA level can be role players next level. Hence Chris Duarte.

But if Grimes needs optimal team balance with skillset, the more I don't even want to draft him. He's not the franchise player, so he should be the one adapting, not the other way around.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:39 pm    Post subject:

AD23 wrote:
Saw some mention Chris Duarte here. I think he would be a great pick at #22 for the Lakers.

Yeah he's old for a rookie (will be 24/25?) but Lakers are in win now mode maybe his added maturity will help.

Having seen him play often because he's in the Pac12, he is what we need. A consistent catch and shoot guy from 3 range.

The other guy I like is Jared Butler, really impressive during the tourney he came up big and has great poise.


Butler was flagged with a medical condition at the combine. He has not been cleared to workout for NBA teams.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:57 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I just don't get it with Grimes. 5 star HS player, 3 years NCAA, NBA ready build. .25FTr. 28.6%FG shooting all other 2point shots outside of the rim. No change in actual skill level.

Meanwhile, BJ Boston shows multiple ball handling flashes out of HS...
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/p/bj-boston-a-klutch-client


I look at Grimes as a complementary 3 & D player this team sorely lacks. He high points his 3pt shot with a quick release that I believe he will be able to execute against NBA defenders. I literally had him close to udfa after the tournament games but I do wonder if fatigue played a role in his subpar shooting as they relied on him for much of Houston's offense and all Houston players play pressure defense as that was the key to their success imo.

His defense looks real at least as a on ball defender. I had a similar impression while watching Caruso in the gleague. Moves well laterally despite not being the quickest or twitchy. Had to re-watch the Baylor game and for the most part he was able to stay in front of the Baylor guards.

Albeit I may be relying too much on his scrimmage play.


Great 3pt shooter, zero midrange game, 3 years NCAA with NBA build. If I didn't know this was Grimes, it reads like a marginal rotation player for an NBA team.


I believe there are several factors that contributed to the numbers you listed. As a whole Houston was a poor 3pt shooting team which affected the spacing on the court. No lanes to drive or multiple defenders in the mid-range area.

These past 2 years Houston lacked a lead guard with a modicum of lead guard skills. Consequently very little help was afforded each player in generating offense.

Houston lacked a true drive and penetrate guard or wing. Combined with lack of 3pt shooters really hindered their offensive system. Too much reliance on athleticism and hustle which could be neutralized with similar athletic teams (i.e. Baylor).


Generally, shot creators at the NCAA level can be role players next level. Hence Chris Duarte.

But if Grimes needs optimal team balance with skillset, the more I don't even want to draft him. He's not the franchise player, so he should be the one adapting, not the other way around.


Hence I stated above complementary 3 & D player. I was just attempting to explain factors I thought influenced the numbers you listed.

I don't believe he needs optimal team balance but what I can deduce from the scrimmage is that playing with better offensive threats on the court and having a true lead guard he was able to show a more efficient game albeit with some limitations. The most prominent is I don't believe he has the instinct and skill to consistently drive to the hoop.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:19 am    Post subject:

^that's my peeve. Solid 3 and D types, shouldn't really need that team context and flash tons more self creation at the NCAA level, even if it's an ancillary skill that transfers to the next level.

3 years NCAA, poor 2 point FG%, sub average FTr. The tape doesn't show that he's flashed those qualities and wants to be some poor man's Allan Houston. Those types don't always make the league.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:41 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^that's my peeve. Solid 3 and D types, shouldn't really need that team context and flash tons more self creation at the NCAA level, even if it's an ancillary skill that transfers to the next level.

3 years NCAA, poor 2 point FG%, sub average FTr. The tape doesn't show that he's flashed those qualities and wants to be some poor man's Allan Houston. Those types don't always make the league.



I'd say above average passing for a standard 3+D shooter, and above average rebounding - those are ancillary skills. He showed the passing at the combine a handful of times, and as a Sophomore had an assist% of 19.. If you're looking for a 3+D player who can at least approach Ingles' pick and roll playmaking - Grimes has to be in the convo with the assist% and tape..this isn't a Josh Hart type passer (but he is near Josh Hart level rebounding)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject:

I should have clarified ancillary offensive skills.

What makes Ingles unique, even as a late bloomer, is that he's a 3 level scorer, before the PnR playmaking kicked in.

Like, if you want to get a guard in the 2nd round, how do you not look at:

Joel Ayayi
Rokas Jokubaitis
Miles McBride (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Kessler Edwards (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Herbert Jones (defender as hekk)
Aaron Henry
Josh Primo
Johann Begarin (all upside play and just 18, 6'6", 220, 7' wingspan, athletic clay)
McKinley Wright IV
?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:19 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
I should have clarified ancillary offensive skills.

What makes Ingles unique, even as a late bloomer, is that he's a 3 level scorer, before the PnR playmaking kicked in.

Like, if you want to get a guard in the 2nd round, how do you not look at:

Joel Ayayi
Rokas Jokubaitis
Miles McBride (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Kessler Edwards (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Herbert Jones (defender as hekk)
Aaron Henry
Josh Primo
Johann Begarin (all upside play and just 18, 6'6", 220, 7' wingspan, athletic clay)
McKinley Wright IV
?


well, what's wrong with wanting the guy who could be a deadeye shooter ---- in today's game. Grimes has the most shooting upside of those guys, and Grimes' size is bigger than a handful of those guys -- a wing defender is valued in today's game as well.

And I'm not sure I buy that about Ingles' playmaking hinging on some above average midrange prowess - in the past 4 years his average midrange pull-up makes are 0.2 per game, with 0.7 attempts.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I should have clarified ancillary offensive skills.

What makes Ingles unique, even as a late bloomer, is that he's a 3 level scorer, before the PnR playmaking kicked in.

Like, if you want to get a guard in the 2nd round, how do you not look at:

Joel Ayayi
Rokas Jokubaitis
Miles McBride (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Kessler Edwards (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Herbert Jones (defender as hekk)
Aaron Henry
Josh Primo
Johann Begarin (all upside play and just 18, 6'6", 220, 7' wingspan, athletic clay)
McKinley Wright IV
?


well, what's wrong with wanting the guy who could be a deadeye shooter ---- in today's game. Grimes has the most shooting upside of those guys, and Grimes' size is bigger than a handful of those guys -- a wing defender is valued in today's game as well.

And I'm not sure I buy that about Ingles' playmaking hinging on some above average midrange prowess - in the past 4 years his average midrange pull-up makes are 0.2 per game, with 0.7 attempts.


Deadeye shooters find their way to the Lakers and don't keep their percentages, so they need high end ancillary skills to stay on the floor.

Ingles' playmaking starts with 3pt gravity, making a decision at the FT line area, usually a change of speed or a headfake, and kicking out to corners, using a floater, or finishing at the rim. You don't have to defend Grimes in this area, because he can't finish or shoot accurately at 2-point range, and doesn't use his physicality like Ingles to eat up real estate.

I just don't get the hype over made shots in a 2 day sample when there's a whole season of how he actually plays. These aren't small deficits either. NCAA transferable stuff from just 2-point range is 54% or higher. I can't accept a 40.7% in that area, that finishes at 58% at the rim. Just tells me, he doesn't get to the rim enough, doesn't draw contact enough, doesn't hit shots when he's really in midrange, and this is a 3 year NCAA player now. Like, THT is a mid 2nd rounder (yes I had him mid 1st), and then, at the same age, he's still a better player than Grimes.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:36 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
I should have clarified ancillary offensive skills.

What makes Ingles unique, even as a late bloomer, is that he's a 3 level scorer, before the PnR playmaking kicked in.

Like, if you want to get a guard in the 2nd round, how do you not look at:

Joel Ayayi
Rokas Jokubaitis
Miles McBride (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Kessler Edwards (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Herbert Jones (defender as hekk)
Aaron Henry
Josh Primo
Johann Begarin (all upside play and just 18, 6'6", 220, 7' wingspan, athletic clay)
McKinley Wright IV
?


I believe he will show the ability to execute straight line drives to the basket and be a good finisher on the receiving end of passes as a slasher and dives to the hoop.

Of those you listed I would take Jokubaitis and maybe Edwards over him.

Ayayi is my conundrum player. Nothing stands out including his physical profile. How much did playing on a stacked college team help or hinder him.? That's my conundrum. RJ Nembhard is a similar player who I like equally as Ayayi.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:46 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I should have clarified ancillary offensive skills.

What makes Ingles unique, even as a late bloomer, is that he's a 3 level scorer, before the PnR playmaking kicked in.

Like, if you want to get a guard in the 2nd round, how do you not look at:

Joel Ayayi
Rokas Jokubaitis
Miles McBride (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Kessler Edwards (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Herbert Jones (defender as hekk)
Aaron Henry
Josh Primo
Johann Begarin (all upside play and just 18, 6'6", 220, 7' wingspan, athletic clay)
McKinley Wright IV
?


I believe he will show the ability to execute straight line drives to the basket and be a good finisher on the receiving end of passes as a slasher and dives to the hoop.

Of those you listed I would take Jokubaitis and maybe Edwards over him.

Ayayi is my conundrum player. Nothing stands out including his physical profile. How much did playing on a stacked college team help or hinder him.? That's my conundrum. RJ Nembhard is a similar player who I like equally as Ayayi.


Ayayi is such a good off ball player and didn't need USG to be effective, which I think says a ton about him as a basketball player with actual feel.

Just stop the vid at the 18 second mark to reflect on how good the shooting is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAzFrNgvBPQ

I just made the entire list of guys I would minimally take over Grimes. If I'm wrong, so be it, but we're talking about a 5 star prospect, that needed more time, and with all this experience, didn't leap statistically or have some giant skill advancement. I just get Andrew/Aaron Harrison vibes.

Outside of FTr, which both are in Harrisons' favor, and rebounding, this is a similar thought process. Big guard, highly ranked, needed extra time, no real definitive skill outside of arc shooting or FTr.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:00 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I should have clarified ancillary offensive skills.

What makes Ingles unique, even as a late bloomer, is that he's a 3 level scorer, before the PnR playmaking kicked in.

Like, if you want to get a guard in the 2nd round, how do you not look at:

Joel Ayayi
Rokas Jokubaitis
Miles McBride (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Kessler Edwards (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Herbert Jones (defender as hekk)
Aaron Henry
Josh Primo
Johann Begarin (all upside play and just 18, 6'6", 220, 7' wingspan, athletic clay)
McKinley Wright IV
?


well, what's wrong with wanting the guy who could be a deadeye shooter ---- in today's game. Grimes has the most shooting upside of those guys, and Grimes' size is bigger than a handful of those guys -- a wing defender is valued in today's game as well.

And I'm not sure I buy that about Ingles' playmaking hinging on some above average midrange prowess - in the past 4 years his average midrange pull-up makes are 0.2 per game, with 0.7 attempts.


Deadeye shooters find their way to the Lakers and don't keep their percentages, so they need high end ancillary skills to stay on the floor.

Ingles' playmaking starts with 3pt gravity, making a decision at the FT line area, usually a change of speed or a headfake, and kicking out to corners, using a floater, or finishing at the rim. You don't have to defend Grimes in this area, because he can't finish or shoot accurately at 2-point range, and doesn't use his physicality like Ingles to eat up real estate.

I just don't get the hype over made shots in a 2 day sample when there's a whole season of how he actually plays. These aren't small deficits either. NCAA transferable stuff from just 2-point range is 54% or higher. I can't accept a 40.7% in that area, that finishes at 58% at the rim. Just tells me, he doesn't get to the rim enough, doesn't draw contact enough, doesn't hit shots when he's really in midrange, and this is a 3 year NCAA player now. Like, THT is a mid 2nd rounder (yes I had him mid 1st), and then, at the same age, he's still a better player than Grimes.


I think it's reasonable to believe that Grimes is a good enough jump-shooter that if teams leave him completely open at 17ft in P&R, he'll improve to be able to hit a respectable amount... maybe spacing hurt his midrange %, and he'll do better with NBA P&R spacing to pull-up in the midrange - but still, Ingles makes 0.2 midrange pull-ups per game.. If Grimes shoots 40% from 3, I strongly believe that teams will respect him enough in the midrange to not leave him open - so Ingles kick-outs will still be available. Teams don't leave 40% 3pt shooters if they dribble into the midrange....they just don't.

I like an all-around player... and Grimes has a lot of important facets that he's above average in for a player his size. I had him 26th pre-combine, 25th after - just seems like a solid sharpshooter 2way prospect who does a little of everything.. like a Josh Hart who can pass and run P&R, but attacks rim a bit less. plays with the same motor, and has #s to back up productive hustle and defense....
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:08 pm    Post subject:

^Why expect improvement, when there are generally better players that already do the same?

Like, how do you pick Grimes over Ayayi? The advanced numbers are a ton widespread.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/joel-ayayi-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/quentin-grimes-1.html

Ayayi gets flack for being on a stacked team, but in general, I don't think people understand how difficult it is to be on a stacked team and correctly make the right decisions every time on the floor to the point where, teammates don't have to pick up a teammate's slack, they're better with you on the floor.

That's Ayayi. The difference here is 20lbs physically. The skill level is a whole tier or two better.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:18 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^Why expect improvement, when there are generally better players that already do the same?

Like, how do you pick Grimes over Ayayi? The advanced numbers are a ton widespread.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/joel-ayayi-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/quentin-grimes-1.html

Ayayi gets flack for being on a stacked team, but in general, I don't think people understand how difficult it is to be on a stacked team and correctly make the right decisions every time on the floor to the point where, teammates don't have to pick up a teammate's slack, they're better with you on the floor.

That's Ayayi. The difference here is 20lbs physically. The skill level is a whole tier or two better.


I think that's a matter of a few things - 1) looking at what will translate with better athletes at the next level. Ayayi athletically has warts defensively regarding translation.. and his creating isn't going to be much better than Grimes if Ayayi is given a role of handling the ball more...I just don't buy him athletically. so he doesn't have a translatable skill that is going to be above average or maybe even not average....

and 2) Ayayi isn't in the same ballpark as a shooter..

I think 3+solid defense guys with size, get on the court..... vs mediocre shooter with below average athleticism, and just okay creation -- that's not a good profile. He doesn't do one thing particularly well when you look at translation.. how is he going to stick in a rotation?

3+solid defense, and some passing that plays well off gravity...good athlete... this is a profile that can get in a rotation
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject:

^I would look again at those "warts." He's still a better defender, finisher, and playmaker than Grimes.

People have him mocked 2nd round, "because he doesn't look the part athletically," and he doesn't break a sweat because it's actually easy, which hints at the idea that there's a ton more there. He's just not a trail defender. Neither is Grimes.

I wouldn't say mediocre shooter, when over 3 years, he's the exact same level of 3pt shooter career wise, shoots 1% off from Grimes' best year, and the finishing and midrange shooting look outrageously outlier to what Grimes does. Unlike Grimes, the PnR proficiency is drastically different, and he actually makes good decisions there.

We're not seeing the same things on the floor, and that's fine. But just on principle alone, we're talking about a player that was projected UDFA to get maybe mid 2nd round because of 2 day hype, instead of looking at UDFA/2nd round types that should be 1st round types, with tiers level better skill.

If you want to argue about athleticism, physical traits, there are still other players to look at, arguably better than Grimes. I literally left a list of them. There's still more.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:30 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I should have clarified ancillary offensive skills.

What makes Ingles unique, even as a late bloomer, is that he's a 3 level scorer, before the PnR playmaking kicked in.

Like, if you want to get a guard in the 2nd round, how do you not look at:

Joel Ayayi
Rokas Jokubaitis
Miles McBride (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Kessler Edwards (I have him ranked higher, others don't)
Herbert Jones (defender as hekk)
Aaron Henry
Josh Primo
Johann Begarin (all upside play and just 18, 6'6", 220, 7' wingspan, athletic clay)
McKinley Wright IV
?


I believe he will show the ability to execute straight line drives to the basket and be a good finisher on the receiving end of passes as a slasher and dives to the hoop.

Of those you listed I would take Jokubaitis and maybe Edwards over him.

Ayayi is my conundrum player. Nothing stands out including his physical profile. How much did playing on a stacked college team help or hinder him.? That's my conundrum. RJ Nembhard is a similar player who I like equally as Ayayi.


Ayayi is such a good off ball player and didn't need USG to be effective, which I think says a ton about him as a basketball player with actual feel.

Just stop the vid at the 18 second mark to reflect on how good the shooting is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAzFrNgvBPQ

I just made the entire list of guys I would minimally take over Grimes. If I'm wrong, so be it, but we're talking about a 5 star prospect, that needed more time, and with all this experience, didn't leap statistically or have some giant skill advancement. I just get Andrew/Aaron Harrison vibes.

Outside of FTr, which both are in Harrisons' favor, and rebounding, this is a similar thought process. Big guard, highly ranked, needed extra time, no real definitive skill outside of arc shooting or FTr.


I get the numbers and the shot looks good but in the video where they highlight his 3pt shot it only reinforces my issue. He has wide open looks due to the threat his teammates pose that Grimes was not afforded. How would Ayayi perform if he was the 1st option vs. 3rd or 4th and opponents game planned to stop him?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:33 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
He has wide open looks due to the threat his teammates pose that Grimes was not afforded. How would Ayayi perform if he was the 1st option vs. 3rd or 4th and opponents game planned to stop him?


Why worry about that issue on LAL, when they had a ridiculous amount of open shots for role players that couldn't hit?

The problem was, when players couldn't hit their arc shots, they provided nothing else offensively.

The playoffs alone are about ancillary skills. They take out your best thing. But people want to tell me about Grimes assist rate when he's not a PnR guy, can't draw FTs, can't finish at the rim, and has a horrible mid-range 2-point ability and LAL needs to wait on development for that?

Nah. There are already guys that can do that.

Honestly, it should already be a red flag, when a guy known as a shooter, couldn't even hit 70%FT, couldn't break 35% arc, and can't shoot midrange.

How do we know this isn't his outlier shooting year, kind of what Kuzma had at Utah to close the season?

Pricey bet, esp when there's other guys that have been solid to great over multiple years without the outlier thing.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark10 45
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:34 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^I would look again at those "warts." He's still a better defender, finisher, and playmaker than Grimes.

People have him mocked 2nd round, "because he doesn't look the part athletically," and he doesn't break a sweat because it's actually easy, which hints at the idea that there's a ton more there. He's just not a trail defender. Neither is Grimes.

I wouldn't say mediocre shooter, when over 3 years, he's the exact same level of 3pt shooter career wise, shoots 1% off from Grimes' best year, and the finishing and midrange shooting look outrageously outlier to what Grimes does. Unlike Grimes, the PnR proficiency is drastically different, and he actually makes good decisions there.

We're not seeing the same things on the floor, and that's fine. But just on principle alone, we're talking about a player that was projected UDFA to get maybe mid 2nd round because of 2 day hype, instead of looking at UDFA/2nd round types that should be 1st round types, with tiers level better skill.

If you want to argue about athleticism, physical traits, there are still other players to look at, arguably better than Grimes. I literally left a list of them. There's still more.


but shooting.
and then you have ancillary skills so he's not just a shooter+solid defender. these guys stay in rotations
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

but shooting.
and then you have ancillary skills so he's not just a shooter+solid defender. these guys stay in rotations


I gave you a 39% shooter with a ton of ancillary skills but you're arguing to me about shooting.

why?

We're defining defense and shooter differently too.

Not all of these guys stay on rotations, btw.

Guess who the better finisher, midrange shooter, and free throw shooter is? Guess who has better touch around the rim?
Guess what are the better indicators to project shooting next level?

It's almost shocking to say McKinley Wright has better shot projection than Grimes.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark10 45
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:40 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

but shooting.
and then you have ancillary skills so he's not just a shooter+solid defender. these guys stay in rotations


I gave you a 39% shooter with a ton of ancillary skills but you're arguing to me about shooting.

why?

We're defining defense and shooter differently too.

Not all of these guys stay on rotations, btw.

Guess who the better finisher, midrange shooter, and free throw shooter is? Guess who has better touch around the rim?
Guess what are the better indicators to project shooting next level?


yes we both must consider volume - Ayayi shot 39% on 3 attempts, while Grimes on 8.3. cmon and then we both often look at mechanics, thankfully not needed as much as before the college 3pt line expanded, but it still plays a role. Another shooting factor - Grimes shoots solid off movement. ....they're not close as shooting prospects, I think that's fair to say. Ayayi shot 34.5% on 3.5 attempts as a Sophomore.. there's just nothing particularly promising about his shooting profile
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