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PlantedTanks
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:47 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Kai Jones
Jaden Springer
Jericho Sims
Brandon Boston Jr.
Chris Duarte
Kessler Edwards
Trey Murphy III
Josh Christopher
Vrenz Bleijenburgh

All updated on the Substack.


Why Jericho Sims?

Chrishtopher or Primo. I am leaning Primo.


Because Klutch.

Why Primo? Youth? Articulate interview?

I may not like certain things about Christopher's game, but he's just 1 year older, in a way that Primo would need an outlier year in terms of physicality just to get close.

JayGup is easily an NBA athlete.


Never watched Primo's interview.

Primo appears to have a slightly better handle and the body control to use his handles to string moves together to create open looks for himself.

Yes Christopher is better physically but give Primo a couple years in an NBA training program and he has the frame to make strength and size gains and narrow the gap.

They both won't be ready to contribute on this Laker team for probably 2-3 years so I don't want either at 22.


With all due respect, the concept of drafting a player and expecting them to really contribute to a winning team within the first 2-3 years is unrealistic. If you’re drafting with that in mind, you fall into the same logic the Lakers used in the early -mid 2000s. When they weren’t penny pinching giving pucks away they were drafting for fit and immediate impact which resulted in us getting guys like Kareem Rush, Brian Cook, Sasha vs when we simply drafted BPA or Best upside available in guys like Bynum, Farmar, and Turiaf.

At this point, our best player is going to be 37 next season, the more young talent you can acquire with high level upside who can impact the team AFTER Bron is gone and the team is AD’s, all the better.

No disrespect, I’m just not a fan of drafting for need or immediate impact over BPA or BUA.


BPA is such a broadly defined term that varies in opinion from one individual to the next and is the reason why I don't use it. Is Davion Mitchell BPA over Primo or Christopher or vice a versa? I would surmise they are better prospects at a comparable age than Mitchell but development skews significantly from player to player throughout their college career (see Quentin Grimes). I have seen Mitchell panned as a 2nd round flyer here.

I have never advocated drafting for need and don't believe my posts alluded to that. My top 5 ranges in age from 18 to 24 with varying skill type.

1. Tre Mann - I believe he can play PG
2. Jaden Springer - young skilled combo guard but tough to project
3. Nah'Shon Hyland - a better long term version of Jordan Clarkson
4. Rokas Jokubaitis - Dragic type offensive game with good athleticism
5. Chris Duarte - good fit with Lakers with his diverse scoring ability. Ready to play.

Does talent fit the need? In this case yes. Center is also a need but talent does not fit as compared to these 5 IMO.

Now if a raw player I consider a top tier talent (Kai Jones) falls to 22 he would be my selection. I would also consider Garuba although the need may not be as great as a wing or center.

One last thought. There have been many rookie to 3rd year players contributing to playoff teams. Herro, Robinson, Bam, Nunn of the Heat. Hueter, Young of the Hawks. OG for Toronto in their championship year. Cam Johnson this year for the Suns. It is more common than perceived.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:19 am    Post subject:

^Whew that's a ton of pressure on the development team to get them on an accelerated course that maybe 1% of the league actually has.

Of that list:

Jaden Springer, I'd argue as the 2nd most developed out of everyone there. Duarte #1. But I'm not making upside projections with those two guys. Hyland, is behind, and it's due to physicality. Rokas, more on skill set. Tre, I have 2nd round and don't understand the hype.

Expecting Primo to get to Josh Christopher physicality? That's a lot, and there's natural power to Josh's athleticism. Don't forget, he gets NBA training at the same time as Primo, and his athleticism is more inherent.

You buy the shot, I buy shot creation. That's the biggest divide between Primo and Christopher. I think Primo makes better decisions, because he wasn't asked to be a #1 guy for his team. Josh was, hence the translation of some shot creation ability, even at inefficient rates, to ASU.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:45 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^Whew that's a ton of pressure on the development team to get them on an accelerated course that maybe 1% of the league actually has.

I don't believe this is true. Prospects are receiving skill training at younger ages year round and playing against similarly skilled athletic players and come better prepared to contribute in the NBA. Quickley, THT, Pritchard come to mind from last year and there may be others. Also teams are putting more value into their skill trainers as the Lakers have in recent years. The key is identifying talent and I believe Jesse and company have proven they are more than competent in doing so.

Of that list:

Jaden Springer, I'd argue as the 2nd most developed out of everyone there. Duarte #1. But I'm not making upside projections with those two guys. Hyland, is behind, and it's due to physicality. Rokas, more on skill set. Tre, I have 2nd round and don't understand the hype.

Tre has been my top target for at least the past 3 months. I feel enough has been stated about his strengths and weaknesses so won't rehash here. I just believe in the talent to become a 18-20 ppg player.

Expecting Primo to get to Josh Christopher physicality? That's a lot, and there's natural power to Josh's athleticism. Don't forget, he gets NBA training at the same time as Primo, and his athleticism is more inherent.

I am not sure of the emphasis on physicality here. A prospect just needs to be able to compete at the NBA level physically and athletically. Primo is fine in this area. I am of the opinion Primo > Christopher in terms of future skill and court play.

You buy the shot, I buy shot creation. That's the biggest divide between Primo and Christopher. I think Primo makes better decisions, because he wasn't asked to be a #1 guy for his team. Josh was, hence the translation of some shot creation ability, even at inefficient rates, to ASU

Not sure where you see I buy the shot. I stated the following in my previous post
Primo appears to have a slightly better handle and the body control to use his handles to string moves together to create open looks for himself.
Isn't this shot creation?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:27 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

I don't believe this is true. Prospects are receiving skill training at younger ages year round and playing against similarly skilled athletic players and come better prepared to contribute in the NBA. Quickley, THT, Pritchard come to mind from last year and there may be others. Also teams are putting more value into their skill trainers as the Lakers have in recent years. The key is identifying talent and I believe Jesse and company have proven they are more than competent in doing so.


Immanuel Quickley and THT are young yes, but it's their skill set relative to age that allows them to be productive players early. Quickley was probably the most obvious as a productive player, because he had 3 NBA level skills from the jump, and wasn't asked to be a lead initiating PG. Prichard was 22 as a rookie.

All NBA teams are behind in terms of skill trainers. Not every player is being optimized to their utmost abilities. Coaching staffs aren't big enough, teams aren't healthy enough for everyone to get there.

But, all players, anywhere within their rookie contracts, are all developing, and the context by age + development curve is super overrated. Can't just take any 18 year old, assume NBA training, and fix a ton of holes. You need to take an 18 year old, with a certain level of baseline skill sets, a couple refined skills, AND THEN refine them with training.

Like, I love Josh Primo. Outside of shooting, how many deficiencies do you think he has a player?

Quote:
Tre has been my top target for at least the past 3 months. I feel enough has been stated about his strengths and weaknesses so won't rehash here. I just believe in the talent to become a 18-20 ppg player.


You have a right to your opinion. I'm not looking at purely scoring in terms of positive impact though.

Quote:
I am not sure of the emphasis on physicality here. A prospect just needs to be able to compete at the NBA level physically and athletically. Primo is fine in this area. I am of the opinion Primo > Christopher in terms of future skill and court play.


So you think in 1 year, Primo is going to have Christopher's baseline level of Iso handle, strength, vertical, burst just to "tie" Josh Christopher's ability? What about when Josh continues to develop and then enhances all of those skills at the same time?

That's what I'm referring to.

Quote:

Primo appears to have a slightly better handle and the body control to use his handles to string moves together to create open looks for himself.
Isn't this shot creation?


Yeah this is where I disagree, especially when Josh Christopher got defensive attention as a top prospect, and Primo didn't.

It's a ton different creating shots when Primo (as a role player) as a threat is the jumper first, and then defenders were reading his finishing ability, his euro step, and forcing him to put the ball on the deck, because that's the weaker ancillary skill.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:38 pm    Post subject:

Christopher and Primo have different handles, but both nice handles. Christopher is more downhill, he can give you moves at full speed and then body you... like Josh Hart on the Lakers if he was skilled. I tend to think that kind of bulldozer+handle works. Primo has the more traditional good handle...not as much downhill but can play with you around the 3pt line.

idk if it's accurate , or novelty, but I believe more in the bulldozer handle creating more advantages. Christopher can dictate a pace with his handle.. Young Eric Blesdoe; a faster THT; skilled Josh Hart.. these guys get to the bucket, these bulldozer types.

If this draft wasn't so deep I'd have Christopher fringe 1st.. maybe I should anyways. Primo brings stuff that's more common but still talented.. so I kinda sleep on him for lack of novelty.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:48 pm    Post subject:

^I have JayGup for sure in LAL's range. The downhill stuff is great, but I like that he creates real space with his handle in the halfcourt, even if the shot isn't as efficient.

Primo is like watching a classic PG handle, with 1 advanced shot creating move. Unfortunately, he's hanging his hat on the spot up corner ability, rather than having that, plus pull up J ability both good to go. Ziaire Williams isn't even that efficient, but his confidence in those abilities has him mid to late 1st regardless.

Unfortunately this isn't Primo with Kobe-like handle/FTr/shot creating. But hell, Jalen Green isn't even that level and getting tons of hype anyway.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:24 pm    Post subject:

The key is identifying talent and I believe Jesse and company have proven they are more than competent in doing so.

Quote:

Immanuel Quickley and THT are young yes, but it's their skill set relative to age that allows them to be productive players early. Quickley was probably the most obvious as a productive player, because he had 3 NBA level skills from the jump, and wasn't asked to be a lead initiating PG. Prichard was 22 as a rookie.


I was semi-high on Quickley last draft. Don't recall him being touted as a ready to play prospect.

Not sure why it matters if Prichard was 22. If a 20 year old prospect spends 2 years in the NBA developing his talent shouldn't he then be ready to play as he will also be 22. We are discussing a 2-3 year time frame from the previous posts.

Quote:

All NBA teams are behind in terms of skill trainers. Not every player is being optimized to their utmost abilities.

You need to take an 18 year old, with a certain level of baseline skill sets, a couple refined skills, AND THEN refine them with training.


And that is why I previously stated the bolded above.

Quote:

Like, I love Josh Primo. Outside of shooting, how many deficiencies do you think he has a player?


I will defer to his prospect videos for his issues. A more appropriate question is can they be corrected and my thoughts are yes. However I am well aware that there is a large variance on how prospects learn and adjust their games whether it is in college or the NBA. How hard they work and their ability to grasp and apply changes in their game I cannot measure. Some get it and some never will.

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You have a right to your opinion. I'm not looking at purely scoring in terms of positive impact though.


Neither do I.

Quote:
So you think in 1 year, Primo is going to have Christopher's baseline level of Iso handle, strength, vertical, burst just to "tie" Josh Christopher's ability? What about when Josh continues to develop and then enhances all of those skills at the same time?

That's what I'm referring to.


Again why does it matter if he matches another prospects physical profile? I mean Christopher is > in this regard than CJ McCollum but who would you prefer. We were discussing 2-3 years not 1.

Quote:

It's a ton different creating shots when Primo (as a role player) as a threat is the jumper first, and then defenders were reading his finishing ability, his euro step, and forcing him to put the ball on the deck, because that's the weaker ancillary skill.


Don't you factor what you project what a prospect can become and not what they currently are especially when they are only 18-19? That's where we seem to diverge in evaluating a prospect. I don't dwell what they are not but what they can become based on how I see their skills and current physical profile.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:32 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
I was semi-high on Quickley last draft. Don't recall him being touted as a ready to play prospect.

Not sure why it matters if Prichard was 22. If a 20 year old prospect spends 2 years in the NBA developing his talent shouldn't he then be ready to play as he will also be 22. We are discussing a 2-3 year time frame from the previous posts.


Quickley's projection wasn't so high because people who draft PGs look for lead initiators, not 3 and D guards with a modicum of passing ability. That's also why I don't believe in "ready to play" ideas. It depends on how much the player has to change to adapt to the NBA level, not that Quickley was a killer efficiency shooter or anthing.

Pritchard? I wasn't focusing on 2-3 year time frames. I was focused on *ready to play* implying from the jump, regardless of age.

Quote:

I will defer to his prospect videos for his issues. A more appropriate question is can they be corrected and my thoughts are yes. However I am well aware that there is a large variance on how prospects learn and adjust their games whether it is in college or the NBA. How hard they work and their ability to grasp and apply changes in their game I cannot measure. Some get it and some never will.


Right, so I don't understand why you like a player *that much* when there are more deficits in terms of the ancillary stuff, and the difference is 1 year of age.

Just so I'm clear, you like Primo for the projection of outlier growth because he's 18, but don't think it's the same possibility for JayGup?

Quote:
Again why does it matter if he matches another prospects physical profile? I mean Christopher is > in this regard than CJ McCollum but who would you prefer. We were discussing 2-3 years not 1.


Because I think in Primo's case, even if he gets close to Josh's profile, it would benefit his ancillary skills across the board.

CJ McCollum was so refined as a player prior to the draft, he was using NBA level isolation moves at LeHigh that he doesn't even use anymore.

Quote:
Neither do I.


So, why refer to Tre Mann as a 18-20ppg player?

Quote:


Don't you factor what you project what a prospect can become and not what they currently are especially when they are only 18-19? That's where we seem to diverge in evaluating a prospect. I don't dwell what they are not but what they can become based on how I see their skills and current physical profile.


I use player comps as facsimiles for a projection but they never turn out that way. If player projection was based on the draft, then your idea of BPA is basically a sliding scale of projection archetypes. That's not my idea of BPA at all. This is where I'm not understanding the thought process of how you see players.

If you really base things on their current skills and physical profile, why would I put that much emphasis in what I project a prospect would become? That's counterintuitive.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:35 pm    Post subject:

A downhill bulldozer vs. a space creator via handles. I just favor the later as that will also open options in creating mid-range and 3pt shots which is more difficult for downhill creators. There is only one Lebron.

THT but he also has the handles and body wiggle to create space. I am sure there are others but handle space creators proliferate the NBA.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:37 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
A downhill bulldozer vs. a space creator via handles.


So you like JayGup because he can do both?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:07 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Quickley's projection wasn't so high because people who draft PGs look for lead initiators, not 3 and D guards with a modicum of passing ability. That's also why I don't believe in "ready to play" ideas. It depends on how much the player has to change to adapt to the NBA level, not that Quickley was a killer efficiency shooter or anthing.

Pritchard? I wasn't focusing on 2-3 year time frames. I was focused on *ready to play* implying from the jump, regardless of age.


Still shows that young prospects contributing in their first 2 years is more prevalent than the perception is. Goes back to identify the talent.

Quote:

Right, so I don't understand why you like a player *that much* when there are more deficits in terms of the ancillary stuff, and the difference is 1 year of age.

Just so I'm clear, you like Primo for the projection of outlier growth because he's 18, but don't think it's the same possibility for JayGup?


Never said I like Primo that much. He is not in my top 10 for the Lakers. Just like his projection more than Christopher. I stated why and I will leave it at that.

What is outlier growth? How many thought THT could run an offense even on a part time basis. He flashed skills in this area but it never crossed my mind until they force fed him in the gleague.

Never said I don't like Christopher. Just believe there is more game in Primo which we will disagree until they are in the league.

Quote:
Because I think in Primo's case, even if he gets close to Josh's profile, it would benefit his ancillary skills across the board.

CJ McCollum was so refined as a player prior to the draft, he was using NBA level isolation moves at LeHigh that he doesn't even use anymore.


Sorry but this is just a non-factor for me. As I stated my main concern is the prospect just needs to show that he can compete physically at the NBA level.

Quote:

So, why refer to Tre Mann as a 18-20ppg player?


Just to show one aspect of his game he can become. In my original post I did state that I believe he can play PG and I have previously mentioned all his attributes of why I like him. Did not want to keep repeating myself.

Quote:
I use player comps as facsimiles for a projection but they never turn out that way. If player projection was based on the draft, then your idea of BPA is basically a sliding scale of projection archetypes. That's not my idea of BPA at all. This is where I'm not understanding the thought process of how you see players.

If you really base things on their current skills and physical profile, why would I put that much emphasis in what I project a prospect would become? That's counterintuitive.


First I don't use BPA. That is just an individuals opinion that as we see differs from person to person (see Champagnie). I would never say Primo is BPA over Christopher because as this discussion show we like/see different positives and negatives in both players.

I realize young prospects are not complete players and when I refer to skill I am referring to what they flash at times during games. From there I attempt to project what they can eventually develop into given proper development.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:10 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
A downhill bulldozer vs. a space creator via handles.


So you like JayGup because he can do both?


He has good handles but does he have the ability to use his handles along with body control to break his defender down. Is he more a short area handle similar to Bouknight?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:26 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
A downhill bulldozer vs. a space creator via handles.


So you like JayGup because he can do both?


He has good handles but does he have the ability to use his handles along with body control to break his defender down. Is he more a short area handle similar to Bouknight?


I think Bouknight is overrated. JayGup clearly has better handles that Bouknight.

I'm not kidding. Like, it's at least a tier better than Primo and Bouknight because of some PnR creation, Iso to midrange, transition. All 3 elements.

I think people are really crapping on JG, like I did at first, because of that shot selection, but isolating that 1 particular skill? Not close.

I think both Primo and Bouknight are average in terms of ball handling.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:50 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
A downhill bulldozer vs. a space creator via handles.


So you like JayGup because he can do both?


He has good handles but does he have the ability to use his handles along with body control to break his defender down. Is he more a short area handle similar to Bouknight?


I think Bouknight is overrated. JayGup clearly has better handles that Bouknight.

I'm not kidding. Like, it's at least a tier better than Primo and Bouknight because of some PnR creation, Iso to midrange, transition. All 3 elements.

I think people are really crapping on JG, like I did at first, because of that shot selection, but isolating that 1 particular skill? Not close.

I think both Primo and Bouknight are average in terms of ball handling.

So good. Absolutely agree. If you're a team looking for an iso guy with upside, Christopher is a much better bet than Bouknight.

Bouknight's value is as an off-ball mover where he smokes Christopher.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:57 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Bouknight's value is as an off-ball mover where he smokes Christopher.


Yep, and even then, off-ball is such a limited playtype that I do question it's value. Like, I absolutely know it's valuable, but it's 2-3 plays a game max? As opposed to Iso/PnR/transition creation which may be 7 of 10 FGa for a guy?

Not that I expect NBA teams to line up with how I perceive the draft, but the only team that's close is the Lakers. But it wouldn't surprise me if guys like Bouknight, Kispert, and other several late lottery to mid 1st types drop to the Lakers pick because in terms of actual skillset, they got "found."
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject:

I haven't seen film of a legitimate critique of Bouknight's handle yet. could you guys send please?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
I haven't seen film of a legitimate critique of Bouknight's handle yet. could you guys send please?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yDn7gDC7pA

Legit looking how high that dribble is, the footwork in how he eats the space, instead of changing direction, jumping early because he knows he has high end flight time.

Bouknight strikes me as a 2-dribble wing. Two dribbles and they're at the cup, usually because they have the athl to do it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:45 pm    Post subject:

when we observe high dribbles.. we should look at when the dribble is high.

the first play of that video is a perfect example: the dribble is high when it's going behind the back and it's far from the defender, not near the defender.. notice when he goes to attack the defender's space with the left hand, the dribble is lower.

we should also never mistake lazy dribbles farrrr away from a defender, as problematic high dribbles, like this one https://youtu.be/6yDn7gDC7pA?t=71
the dribble gets lower on the play

Bones Hyland is someone who I observed had a high dribble often in the poke-away space. This is the quintessential play of a high dribble: https://youtu.be/mHWnO1sZyDc?t=437 it's so high and in the defender's face that the defender starts attacking it, reaching, because he feels it's gettable.


https://youtu.be/cZeSccHTFrI?t=241 shown on this upcoming play ; you can visualize the defender poking that dribble.. it's right in the defender's space.

https://youtu.be/cZeSccHTFrI?t=296 again here, you can clearly visualize this bigman showing, poking this high dribble away


A difference from what I've seen, between Bone's and Bouknight - Bone's often makes more of a visible effort to get low - although I don't think that bend looks natural from his high hips. Bouknight on the other hand has the burst to get separation... so you could argue Bouknight has that trait to make his sometimes high dribble safe. but honestly, when players can really dribble at the next level - when they have combo guard-ish dribbles; rarely is that player limited by a high dribble, so I could argue it's a nit-picky thing.. because if a player can really dribble, you rarely see a high dribble stifle them on the court consistently.


another thing to look at on whether high dribbles are problematic or not --- is the ballhandler cognizant of when his dribble is in the danger zone of being too close to the defender https://youtu.be/mJr00mGNqhM?t=245 watch how the dribble goes from high to low+away from defender. I also love his footwork on this play. He attacks with a footwork-centric downhill burst move , then seamlessly transitions into his 2 dribble space creator footwork at an angle. that's great footwork combining moves to get to his 'spot'.. if you want to talk about Kobe, that play is Kobe. He gives move #1 and then his counter is a go-to move, seamless footwork and angles to get there! and deceleration

I've seen him pick up his dribble too often...and get trapped... but this is a somewhat typical flaw. Clarkson struggled with it.. it's overcome-able.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:44 pm    Post subject:

first link, high dribble, unnecessary.

Bones is a higher tier of ball handler than Bouknight, because his shot is predicated on making a ton of space and getting a real vertical lift into the shot.

Either way, high dribbles get poked away at the NBA level, unless the hesitation move is really sold and has true delay.

I'm not a big fan of any of this tbh. But Bouknight is below Bones and JayGup as an Iso ball handler, and this just furthers the idea of him as a 2 dribble player.

Bouknight reads like a classic example of never needing to advance his ball handling, because he has the burst/vertical to compensate.

I'd rather not rely on that from a player.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:17 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
first link, high dribble, unnecessary.

Bones is a higher tier of ball handler than Bouknight, because his shot is predicated on making a ton of space and getting a real vertical lift into the shot.

Either way, high dribbles get poked away at the NBA level, unless the hesitation move is really sold and has true delay.

I'm not a big fan of any of this tbh. But Bouknight is below Bones and JayGup as an Iso ball handler, and this just furthers the idea of him as a 2 dribble player.

Bouknight reads like a classic example of never needing to advance his ball handling, because he has the burst/vertical to compensate.

I'd rather not rely on that from a player.


https://youtu.be/6Kx0lQqw0DQ?t=118
https://youtu.be/6Kx0lQqw0DQ?t=136 you can't call these 2 plays a 2 dribble player... haha I love you Mike but no way

when the high dribble occurs is really important https://youtu.be/pH7mDrAHZjQ?t=118 Brandon Ingram demonstrates that here. Players often have fun dribbling/get lazy and dribble high, but when they're approaching the defender they lower it, they're cognizant.. and Bouknight displays that a lot - he uses escape dribbles well when he feels his dribble is approaching the defenders space dangerously....

I see an above average handle.. I don't get why he isn't getting credit for the dozens of nice dribble moves... like, really really nice moves... often done with his off-hand

https://youtu.be/WeXcCfSbWfE?t=194 bye Mobley


https://youtu.be/6Kx0lQqw0DQ?t=89 look at how long this pause is, this is a special move, you don't see that long of a pause on a fake J hesi. this isn't athleticism reliant at all.. this isn't burst dependent, it's all skill


https://youtu.be/gt-0wi0ufRU?t=247 the timing on this move, the most subtle pause allows the burst
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:47 pm    Post subject:

1st move legit. JayGup does that.
2nd move, 2 dribbles on initial move, 1 change of direction. Gets into lane, doesn't turn PnR into an advantage with the roll man until the roll man sets a screen in the paint for his drive.

Considering BI's wingspan and height, that's a low dribble. When he commits to the actual move, it's actually at knee height.

Vs. Mobley, hesitation, 2 dribbles

Real hesitation into a crossover

Crossover, 2 dribbles

I would legitimately call this, the average for a wing player. 1 change of direction, 2 dribbles.

I think you're not looking at JayGup within PnR, Iso ball handling, and how he creates space in his own shot.

These are all Bouknight with lanes, but lanes aren't always available.

Look at JayGups operating space and how limited it is, compared to Bouknight.

Now look how he operates within that space.
https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=38
https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=52
https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=64

PnR
https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=77

Under control, multiple moves. Watch the next 2 drives. Then let it run to show the floater game, perfectly applicable out of PnR, but he's doing it after 2 changes of direction.
https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=94

That's what I mean by, at least a tier better.

None of those are 2 dribble moves with athleticism to compensate in the way Bouknight does it.

Footwork with traffic in transition. Then let it run for the next play where he crosses over mid transition and keeps going.
https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=150
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:04 pm    Post subject:

ya i haven't watched much of Jaygup


so the P&R is the most common play in basketball. Ball handling successes in it, exist outside of the scope of the "1 or 2 changes of direction" theorem.
Looking at this play again https://youtu.be/WeXcCfSbWfE?t=198 it's masterful!!! He creates solid space on the behind the back, and then heading to the screen, every step as a pause or hesi-step: the patience and set-up are masterful. goes seamlessly into the stepback hesi, then crosses in front of the defender blowing by...... that's A LOT. In my mind, when someone says "he's a 2 dribble SG" those are two simple dribbles, coming from 1 crossover move. Bouknight just showed the clear opposite with how long he kept the ball on a string executing nuanced P&R manipulation...timing manipulation, and a fake stepback.. that's a lot more than what I think of when someone says "2 dribble SG" I think of more of Ben Gordon or early career Zach Lavine
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:08 pm    Post subject:

I don't think it's so masterful.

You legit said you didn't watch that much out of JayGup. It's like you're trying to convince yourself of Bouknight and his handle when JayGup is a tier better through multiple playtypes and tougher confines, where you don't need the convincing.

I call him a 2 dribble SG, because nearly every single drive, that's what he's using outside of his hesitation and 1 change of direction.

Then I've got multiple vids of JayGup, through multiple playtypes, where it's 2 changes of direction, plus the brakes, plus the hesitation. This is the ball handling stuff I'm referring to with the philosophy piece am I not? 2 changes of direction on the same drive.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:23 pm    Post subject:

Mike all of these that you linked below are extremely simple....


https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=38 - this one is nice but still not too advanced

https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=52
https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=64

PnR
https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=77 this P&R is a basic play, he comes over the top not having to set-up his man like Bouknight did on the behind the back and stutters into the P&R like I linked - Bouknight's play is Mozart compared to this.. there's no set-up, nor a fake step back after he capitalized on using the P&R

https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=99 this upcoming play is the best one you linked. He operates in small space well..very well, he can use moves in it and be quick. that's appealing, I can get excited about that.....

But 90% of the plays you showed, are Small Forward simple and Bouknight has done them
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:29 pm    Post subject:

Dude we're not seeing the same thing.

first vid, 2 changes of direction, step back
2nd vid, change of direction into a change of direction
3rd vid, hesitation, change of direction once, change of direction twice, hit the brakes.


You did see the same video where Bouknight has a 26% TO issue out of PnR and both guys take shots in crowds? Shoots 21.7% out of C+S in the halfcourt?

Even the last vid is 2 changes of direction before a step through.

Elite small forwards do this.

But if you watched through Bouknight's vid all the way through, you can legit count 2 dribbles, footwork, jump. 2 dribbles, footwork, jump.

That's what I mean by a 2 dribble player. Meanwhile Gup is working in tighter spaces and with an 11.4% TO rate compared to Bouknight's 14%.

Man, there aren't even that many point guards in the league with that kind of multiple directional handle in a confined space.
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