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Mark10 45
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:40 pm    Post subject:

https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=52 Mike this is a regular hang crossover, it's one change of direction

https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=64 are you really going to count a move off a pivot off a non live dribble, as change of direction #1, when we're talking about dribble moves in this convo ?
he did a crossover after attacking a closeout , and did a stepback. nice, but that's not 2 changes of directions off a live dribble.

https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=77 and he literally uses a pick and roll off of a pivot, exemplifying that there's no pre P&R dribbling necessary - while Bouknight went behind the back to set up the P&R , hesitated into it, and then after the P&R what did each player do? Gup: dribbled into space, wow. Bouknight: did a fake step-back hesi , crossover downhill.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:54 pm    Post subject:

Nope.

1st dribble is a crossover, 2nd dribble is a crossover.

2nd play. Yes, because jab steps and hesitation moves without a dribble that give an advantage, are advantage plays. The real *advanced* play here is actually beginning the move, right when the defender plants his feet and gains a tiny advantage on the initial drive. Then change of direction at the elbow, then change of direction at the paint, into a step back. Confined spaces. The first change of direction on that drive, does not occur at the elbow.


You brought up the same play 2x over. These *are not* two dribble moves. JayGup has a better TO rate than Bouknight. And even with his left-to-right shot mechanics that I don't like, with really bad misses, and both guys shoot nearly identical percentages.

I'd rather fix Josh's shot mechanics, than Bouknight's high dribble + multiple changes of direction to incorporate like JayGup.

Josh literally comes from a basketball family with his 4 brothers and father.

Then, Josh's shots are 10% less assisted at the rim, at 2 point range, and 4% in his favor behind the arc.

Handle, shot creation, less turnover prone, even with the uglier shot, and at a younger age.

Bouknight isn't doing that last highlight clip I showed you. Considering Josh is doing that at a younger age, I think he's clearly a tier better ball handler. He's the only one here using multiple dribbles, multiple changes of direction, then footwork, and finishing through contact at the same time.

That behind the back dribble you showed, just reset the screen, and wasn't an advantage play, up until his teammate backpicked his defender to the hoop.

I legit don't know what else to tell you about Bouknight being a two dribble guy using burst and hops to compensate. It's all in the same vid.

Quote:
did a fake step-back hesi , crossover downhill


This is what small forwards do.

If PnRs are such simple plays, he shouldn't be getting a 26% TO rate out of them.

If you look at playtypes between the vids, Bouknight gets advantage plays off of screens. JayGup isn't.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:03 pm    Post subject:

you're telling me the behind the back to create a little space on the P&R was nothing (even though creating space between the on-ball defender and the screen is a foundational teaching even when getting a DHO)

but then you're telling me this first dribble is a crossover and it's something important - that was called a crossover in 1950 .. in a technicality it is, but it's really just putting the ball down to the other side - it's not a whole dribble move, ask anyone https://youtu.be/bS4iw75iqWA?t=52
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:06 pm    Post subject:

I'm telling you, Bouknight's best stuff, being a year older, isn't better than JayGup's best, which is the point of the conversation about JayGup being a tier better ball handler.

Like of course 90% of the stuff is going to be the same. You're looking for the 10% of advanced stuff that players can't do. It's not like they're going to go full advantage level ball handling every single play.

That one last vid, is everything, and Bouknight doesn't do that. Hell, tons of NBA guards/wings can't do it.

The real argument is intangibles. JayGup is Hollywood. I've heard great things about Bouknight. But in JayGup's family, you're disowned if you can't handle the rock. Straight from his interviews.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark10 45
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:08 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
I'm telling you, Bouknight's best stuff, being a year older, isn't better than JayGup's best, which is the point of the conversation about JayGup being a tier better ball handler.

Like of course 90% of the stuff is going to be the same. You're looking for the 10% of advanced stuff that players can't do. It's not like they're going to go full advantage level ball handling every single play.

That one last vid, is everything, and Bouknight doesn't do that. Hell, tons of NBA guards/wings can't do it.


you could be right about this my friend. idk. I haven't watched enough of Gup and I can see from a couple of the clips that he does handle really well in tight spaces.. this I agree with. Even how quickly he snatches the ball on his crosses and how much he changes direction in a tight space. yea. it's appealing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:59 pm    Post subject:

https://youtu.be/WeXcCfSbWfE?t=66
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:42 am    Post subject:

moved D.Johnson down to 29. if he can go from an F grade in-between game to C grade, then he'll be a really good role player but man, that needs to improve.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:16 am    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
moved D.Johnson down to 29. if he can go from an F grade in-between game to C grade, then he'll be a really good role player but man, that needs to improve.


The reason why I have him lower is because, not only does he lack an intermediate game, but forced the action to get within 5' of the rim, bad angles, and doesn't quite have the touch to finesse those shots.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:31 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
moved D.Johnson down to 29. if he can go from an F grade in-between game to C grade, then he'll be a really good role player but man, that needs to improve.


The reason why I have him lower is because, not only does he lack an intermediate game, but forced the action to get within 5' of the rim, bad angles, and doesn't quite have the touch to finesse those shots.


yea not pretty.
And it gets highlighted because he likes to turn his back to the basket, and those little flip shots come from that. angles aren't him dictating either.

https://youtu.be/7Gy4wesotPE?t=898 this is a refined move. fake-pullup and then the bump-off at the end ; sets it up going multiple directions

https://youtu.be/7Gy4wesotPE?t=625 this is a big-boy attack, physical and athletic at the rim. portends well

And defensively he's good - he was put on Mathew Hurt when he was hot, and David although 5" inches shorter, shut him down. Most notably he's a team defender though I think

https://youtu.be/7Gy4wesotPE?t=4358 a lot of good walling at the rim in help; here comes over to really bother Hurt at the rim, makes him flail. does this a lot.
he's strong and long
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:51 am    Post subject:

1. Disagree about the refined move. Missed the open man in the corner. Even had time to put the ball into his right hand, and was still open. Completely missed, defense too dense on his side, hence, the move didn't really work.

2. The reject screen drive left thing is fine. I just expect THT to do that kind of thing already, so I'm not clear what Johnson does better than THT considering they're the same archetype.

3. Sure, I believe the team defense. Louisville instills those fundamentals.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:00 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
1. Disagree about the refined move. Missed the open man in the corner. Even had time to put the ball into his right hand, and was still open. Completely missed, defense too dense on his side, hence, the move didn't really work.

2. The reject screen drive left thing is fine. I just expect THT to do that kind of thing already, so I'm not clear what Johnson does better than THT considering they're the same archetype.

3. Sure, I believe the team defense. Louisville instills those fundamentals.


that was the Center , he wasn't a viable stretch kick-out option; and he would have had to jump on the defenders back for the lob, it wasn't there, or was a highlight attempt at best. give him his credit Mike haha
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:20 am    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
1. Disagree about the refined move. Missed the open man in the corner. Even had time to put the ball into his right hand, and was still open. Completely missed, defense too dense on his side, hence, the move didn't really work.

2. The reject screen drive left thing is fine. I just expect THT to do that kind of thing already, so I'm not clear what Johnson does better than THT considering they're the same archetype.

3. Sure, I believe the team defense. Louisville instills those fundamentals.


that was the Center , he wasn't a viable stretch kick-out option; and he would have had to jump on the defenders back for the lob, it wasn't there, or was a highlight attempt at best. give him his credit Mike haha


I still don't think it was a good decision.

Run a DHO off the corner for Dre Davis and try to get him downhill baseline.

There's 20 seconds on the clock. Or just kick it to the corner, warrant a whiff of attention, and reset.

Tons better than actually driving into the loaded sided of the defense.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:29 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
1. Disagree about the refined move. Missed the open man in the corner. Even had time to put the ball into his right hand, and was still open. Completely missed, defense too dense on his side, hence, the move didn't really work.

2. The reject screen drive left thing is fine. I just expect THT to do that kind of thing already, so I'm not clear what Johnson does better than THT considering they're the same archetype.

3. Sure, I believe the team defense. Louisville instills those fundamentals.


that was the Center , he wasn't a viable stretch kick-out option; and he would have had to jump on the defenders back for the lob, it wasn't there, or was a highlight attempt at best. give him his credit Mike haha


I still don't think it was a good decision.

Run a DHO off the corner for Dre Davis and try to get him downhill baseline.

There's 20 seconds on the clock. Or just kick it to the corner, warrant a whiff of attention, and reset.

Tons better than actually driving into the loaded sided of the defense.


I was more just looking at the handle in a vacuum; as it's a topic of critique with him.

Decision wise, there is also the factor of them having 4 points and their offense not being able to get going - this play strikes me as a top scoring option taking the game into his own hands, trying to jumpstart the offense.. it's a decision that's often clamored for by coaches and pundits. Johnson doesn't have this scoring ability, but if that was his mentality I would respect the confidence and alpha of it
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:33 am    Post subject:

^I get it with the handle, but that decision making makes the skill useless, so it's a bad process/thinking. I've been a ton more critical of that aspect on draft prospects than ever, and it had me drop Vrenz out of contention, depending on how you view him.

I don't think jumpstarting an offense does any good with bad shot attempts. I especially don't get it, when he's inefficient in that area, wants to play out of the context of what he does best, and didn't create that advantage for his own team, and likely won't at the next level, esp as a Laker.

The defense won that possession.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:21 pm    Post subject:

Getting close to the day:

Cade Cunningham
Evan Mobley

Jalen Green
Jaden Springer
Jalen Suggs

Josh Giddey
Jonathan Kuminga
Moses Moody
Sharife Cooper
Roko Prkacin
Franz Wagner
Scottie Barnes

I don't know if I need to go much further since at least one of Cooper, Springer, or Prkacin should be there at #22.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:32 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
I'm telling you, Bouknight's best stuff, being a year older, isn't better than JayGup's best, which is the point of the conversation about JayGup being a tier better ball handler.

Like of course 90% of the stuff is going to be the same. You're looking for the 10% of advanced stuff that players can't do. It's not like they're going to go full advantage level ball handling every single play.

That one last vid, is everything, and Bouknight doesn't do that. Hell, tons of NBA guards/wings can't do it.

The real argument is intangibles. JayGup is Hollywood. I've heard great things about Bouknight. But in JayGup's family, you're disowned if you can't handle the rock. Straight from his interviews.

Bouknight's value to me is that once he and the team that drafts him realize he isn't that big time iso scorer, he can settle in as a talented off-ball mover/scorer.

Christopher almost has to be an on-ball/iso scorer. Not a lot of off-ball movement/awareness with him. But he has a better chance of becoming that high level iso scorer than Bouknight.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:21 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I'm telling you, Bouknight's best stuff, being a year older, isn't better than JayGup's best, which is the point of the conversation about JayGup being a tier better ball handler.

Like of course 90% of the stuff is going to be the same. You're looking for the 10% of advanced stuff that players can't do. It's not like they're going to go full advantage level ball handling every single play.

That one last vid, is everything, and Bouknight doesn't do that. Hell, tons of NBA guards/wings can't do it.

The real argument is intangibles. JayGup is Hollywood. I've heard great things about Bouknight. But in JayGup's family, you're disowned if you can't handle the rock. Straight from his interviews.

Bouknight's value to me is that once he and the team that drafts him realize he isn't that big time iso scorer, he can settle in as a talented off-ball mover/scorer.

Christopher almost has to be an on-ball/iso scorer. Not a lot of off-ball movement/awareness with him. But he has a better chance of becoming that high level iso scorer than Bouknight.


Watched PDs stream on it yesterday. I'm not as hard on the shooting percentages because of how effective he was with defenses focused on him. At the same time, I'm not clear on how to solve players when their USG is high at the NCAA level, then drops at the NBA level for a projected role.

Yeah JayGup needs help off ball, and he's average in terms of just relocating and spotting up, but at least he's willing to do that ya know?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:41 am    Post subject:

26. Quentin Grimes
27. Bones Hyland
28. Ziaire Williams
29. Kuminga
30. Isaiah Livers
31. Trey Murphy
32. David Johnson

I kinda wanna put Livers above Grimes.... this whole section looks clunky

And this comment will not surprise you: I can see the Lakers drafting Livers.

I don't 100% buy both Livers and Grimes' jumpers... I'm mostly sold; but Livers lack of dip, I wonder if that will effect range.. and Grimes pocket is uniquely high. generally I trust they'll be shooters though.

I love the depth of this draft.. again, no player is a lock, but they all have legit potential skill-wise or in role. There's like 50 players I legit like
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:17 am    Post subject:

T1
1. Cade
2. Mobley

T2
3. Green
4. Suggs


-------------T3 3rd or 4th best player on contender ceilings

5. JT Thor: trust his floor and think he has a the most realistic shot to hit a nice ceiling, out of the upside-plays in this tier. 6'10 in shoes, really skilled, 3s off the dribble. super long on defense with great shot blocking knack. super coordinated and athletic. Highest ceiling in tier. Could be a 2.5 on contender

6. Davion Mitchell: safe.

7. Duece Mcbride: really good length measurements + athleticism show. can guard big enough wings too; guarded Cade really well. Traces the ball kind of like Thybulle.... great IQ defensive reads too. Collin Sexton offensively? Wants to play with pace, use his burst, score in midrange and solid from 3. ..converted PG level passer.

8. Bouknight: floor is a 6 MOY candidate scorer. realistic ceiling is like Lavine-lite / Caris Levert type scoring. he's quicker than Clarkson, longer too. Solid rebounder. solid defensive potential. I do think he has the ancillary skills to stay on the court in playoff crunchtime, and the jumper will come around.

9. Moody: Mikal Bridges. Tobias Harris with better defense as a ceiling.
10. Barnes
11. Cooper
12. Kai Jones: potential 3pt shooting + super dynamic defensive piece.
13. Vrenz B: love that he's played a PG type role since he was HS age. At 6'9, his blend of skills is really unique.
14. Wagner
15. Jalen Johnson
16. Ziaire Williams
17. Springer
18. Giddey
19. Duarte
20. Garuba
21. Keon Johnson
22. Sengun



--------------T4 worthy of Laker pick
23. Butler
24. Bones Hyland
25. Tre Mann: best space creator in the class that I've seen. doesn't like ball pressure often times though. 6th man Cj Mccullum.
26. Isaiah Livers
27. Quentin Grimes
28. Isaiah Jackson
29. Kuminga
30. Trey Murphy
31. David Johnson: Caruso, Terrance Mann ish. All around 2way player. great passer as well.
32. Kispert
33. Joshua Primo
34. Josh Christopher
35. Austin Reaves
36. Juhann Begarin



------T5 - 2nd rounders
37. David Duke Jr
38. Dosumnu
39. Kessler Edwards
40. Sandro M
41. Bj Boston
42. Jericho Sims
43. Romeo Weems
44. Aaron Wiggins
45. Rokas J
46. Joe Wieskamp
47. Aaron Henry
48. Herb Jones
49. Ej Onu
50. Queta
51. Scottie Lewis
52. Greg Brown
53. Joel Ayayi

---------------- T6 - near pick 50+
54. Raiquan Gray
55. Cam Thomas
56. Aamir Simms
57. DJ Stewart (Miss St)
58. Hauser
59. Isaiah Todd
60. Robinson Earl
61. Preston
62. Daishen Nix
63. Matt Mitchell
64. DeJon Jarreau
65. AJ Lawson
66. Anthony Tarke
67. Alston Jr.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:28 pm    Post subject:

Austin Reaves should be a first rounder.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:00 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Austin Reaves should be a first rounder.


ayee. big fan here as well. I'd love to move him up my board. I just like the depth of this class so much it's tough
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:11 pm    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Austin Reaves should be a first rounder.


ayee. big fan here as well. I'd love to move him up my board. I just like the depth of this class so much it's tough


Bobby Sura is worth it tbh.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:15 pm    Post subject:

rank Dosumnu, Scottie Lewis, Reaves. And how considerably would you have Reaves above those guys if he is ?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:21 pm    Post subject:

Mark10 45 wrote:
rank Dosumnu, Scottie Lewis, Reaves. And how considerably would you have Reaves above those guys if he is ?


Reaves.

I wouldn't draft Ayo. Lewis is mid to late 2nd round, like a poor man's Thybulle, but too small.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:42 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Mark10 45 wrote:
rank Dosumnu, Scottie Lewis, Reaves. And how considerably would you have Reaves above those guys if he is ?


Reaves.

I wouldn't draft Ayo. Lewis is mid to late 2nd round, like a poor man's Thybulle, but too small.


moved him up a handful of spots.
Lewis, I'm holding out like pie in the sky hope, that he'll be a cool offensive player...cuz he does some skilled stuff and is just so athletic. and defensively he could be really good.
I'll have to look into Dosunmu more. what are some of your thoughts on him?
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