You completely missed the point of my original post. In fact, it's sort of like you've having a discussion with someone else.
You are asking us to stay in contention after lebron is gone, and that’s a lot to ask. Who knows how BI, Randle , Ball, DLO would be like in 3-4 years. All we can ask for was a 3-4 years window to win a title and hopefully more. We had done that, so whatever young talent or draft picks we gave up, it was worth it.
I guess I would answer Yes, but I’m not as firm as many of you. Winning a title was the minimum condition to make me say Yes. If we get only the one bubble title out of the Lebron era, and if we don’t manage to stay in contention when he is gone, it won’t be impressive. Still, a banner in the rafters is what it’s all about.
But I was never comfortable about becoming the latest franchise for Team Lebron. We are the marquee franchise in the league. We have advantages in terms of revenue, geography, and glamour. Like the Yankees, it’s newsworthy when we *aren’t* a contender. It took a series of bad breaks and bad decisions to turn us into a perennial lottery team. I understand the allure of a quick fix by becoming the latest franchise of Team Lebron, but if all we get is the bubble title, I’ll be underwhelmed.
I get where you are coming but you are talking about the lakers historically. At the time Lebron signed the team was totally dysfunctional, non competitive, and incompetent, honestly. From ownership to management to coaching staff to players. We needed Lebron to save us lol he was the best thing to happen and was automatically the most competent guy in the organization from not only a player perspective but probably a management and even coaching perspective as well honestly. The lakers were a complete dumpster fire when he signed so I remember being like “please just let Lebron take over just do what he says cuz y’all are lost” basically haha but now the team has better management better coaching and better players and Lebron was a really huge part of that. Those teams sucked back then and were embarrassing
Of course I'm talking about the Lakers historically. We're an historic franchise. I certainly won't dispute what you say about the malaise of the post-PJ era. I'm still not comfortable with becoming the latest franchise of Team Lebron. If all we get out of it is the bubble title, that would be a minimally acceptable outcome. I think people would look back on this era and shrug.
Moving forward past Lebron, I worry that the franchise is still dysfunctional. Jim Buss is an easy target, but the dysfunction ran deeper than that. The Buss family really needs to sell, but that does not appear to be on the horizon. So is everything really back under control? We shall see. So far, everything important has been orchestrated by Team Lebron. What happens when Lebron and his people move on? Again, we shall see.
Ya who knows what the future holds but I do feel like the team is more stable now with magic out and pelinka having full control, Jeannie in place of Jim, and Vogel’s coaching staff in place of waltons coaching staff. All those changes have increased the competency and stability of the organization and I don’t think “team lebron” made all that happen but I don’t know he has a had a tremendous influence.
Ya who knows what the future holds but I do feel like the team is more stable now with magic out and pelinka having full control, Jeannie in place of Jim, and Vogel’s coaching staff in place of waltons coaching staff. All those changes have increased the competency and stability of the organization and I don’t think “team lebron” made all that happen but I don’t know he has a had a tremendous influence.
I appreciate your optimism, but I'll list the things that worry me. Do not interpret this as Chicken Little post or a piss and moan post. I'm just going to lay out some of the things that worry me going forward.
Jeanie did not replace Jim. She's in the same position as she always was. But this is an unfortunately familiar scenario: a successful patriarch (in this case, Dr. Buss) is so personally invested in his creation (the modern Lakers) that he wants to keep it in the family and leaves it to his kids. But the kids are usually mediocre and wind up running the family business into the ground. Jim Buss is an easy target, but none of the older kids have shown their dad's acumen. Jeanie is not as openly involved in the operation of the team, but her big decision so far has been hiring Magic, and it wasn't long ago that the media was pounding her for her reliance on the Rambi. Right now, winning diverts attention, but when the Lebron era ends (and maybe even before then), Jeanie will be back in the spotlight.
You say that Pelinka is now in full control, but he isn't. Team Lebron has orchestrated the major moves. Right now, we are looking good, so a lot of people are on the Pelinka bandwagon. I'm not sold yet, but I'm hopeful. How is he going to do when Team Lebron isn't setting things up for him? We shall see. Furthermore, if we go into a lean period, and the fans have torches and pitchforks out, how long will it take before Jeanie puts a knife in his back? Again, we shall see.
Finally, I'm concerned about the assumption that we can just re-load around Davis. He's a really good player, but he's not a magnet like Lebron. Furthermore, I'm not sure that he's a floor-raiser. He had some decent supporting casts in New Orleans (though some people will tell you otherwise), and he didn't accomplish much. If you compare what he did to what Giannis and Jokic have done, it's a stark difference. Some guys are just better as the sidekick than as the alpha. I hope that Pelinka manages to bring in a star to replace Lebron as the floor leader, but that's easier said than done. I can see a scenario in which we wind up in the purgatory of the 6-10 seeds.
Again, no Chicken Little here. I'm just laying out why I'm not comfortable with the direction of the franchise. We need to win another title or two during the Lebron era. Otherwise, we may look back on this era and decide that we were just spinning our wheels, notwithstanding the bubble title. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
Ya who knows what the future holds but I do feel like the team is more stable now with magic out and pelinka having full control, Jeannie in place of Jim, and Vogel’s coaching staff in place of waltons coaching staff. All those changes have increased the competency and stability of the organization and I don’t think “team lebron” made all that happen but I don’t know he has a had a tremendous influence.
I appreciate your optimism, but I'll list the things that worry me. Do not interpret this as Chicken Little post or a piss and moan post. I'm just going to lay out some of the things that worry me going forward.
Jeanie did not replace Jim. She's in the same position as she always was. But this is an unfortunately familiar scenario: a successful patriarch (in this case, Dr. Buss) is so personally invested in his creation (the modern Lakers) that he wants to keep it in the family and leaves it to his kids. But the kids are usually mediocre and wind up running the family business into the ground. Jim Buss is an easy target, but none of the older kids have shown their dad's acumen. Jeanie is not as openly involved in the operation of the team, but her big decision so far has been hiring Magic, and it wasn't long ago that the media was pounding her for her reliance on the Rambi. Right now, winning diverts attention, but when the Lebron era ends (and maybe even before then), Jeanie will be back in the spotlight.
You say that Pelinka is now in full control, but he isn't. Team Lebron has orchestrated the major moves. Right now, we are looking good, so a lot of people are on the Pelinka bandwagon. I'm not sold yet, but I'm hopeful. How is he going to do when Team Lebron isn't setting things up for him? We shall see. Furthermore, if we go into a lean period, and the fans have torches and pitchforks out, how long will it take before Jeanie puts a knife in his back? Again, we shall see.
Finally, I'm concerned about the assumption that we can just re-load around Davis. He's a really good player, but he's not a magnet like Lebron. Furthermore, I'm not sure that he's a floor-raiser. He had some decent supporting casts in New Orleans (though some people will tell you otherwise), and he didn't accomplish much. If you compare what he did to what Giannis and Jokic have done, it's a stark difference. Some guys are just better as the sidekick than as the alpha. I hope that Pelinka manages to bring in a star to replace Lebron as the floor leader, but that's easier said than done. I can see a scenario in which we wind up in the purgatory of the 6-10 seeds.
Again, no Chicken Little here. I'm just laying out why I'm not comfortable with the direction of the franchise. We need to win another title or two during the Lebron era. Otherwise, we may look back on this era and decide that we were just spinning our wheels, notwithstanding the bubble title.
You've made good points throughout this thread but most people just want affirmation that the team is doing well. It's viewed as almost treasonous or trolling to suggest otherwise.
I've been a fan for decades... watched every game throughout the Dark Ages and people still question my loyalty just because I think there is more than one path to success.
People should welcome diverse opinions but instead most just want people to tell them everything is okay. I get not wanting to hear negativity all the time but I get called names way more than I call other people names.
We are forced into a position where we must resign Schroder... If that it isn't a red flag for some... I don't know what is.
Essentially we are all hoping Schroder morphs into a Lowry quality player for the playoffs as well as the future so he is a moveable piece at 21 million plus per year.
When you are praying for players to become players that they aren't... Kuzma becomes an elite defender and shoots 40% from three... Caruso continues his offensive progression and starts averaging 15 points per game... Schroder expands his court vision and offensive repertoire and starts shooting 40% from three... that's a problem. I'm not saying these guys can't eventually achieve these goals... but the trick is for them to already be there at their ages. It's ironic that some who had no patience for the development of the kids... are incredibly patient with the development of Schroder.
One of the best things about last year was watching the Clips fall flat on their face after talking smack all season. Seeing Balmer and the snake Kawhi who tried to sabotage us have to not only eat that, but watch us get another ring is priceless.
Same with shutting up all the critics and haters who were bad mouthing the team all season long doubting us. Remember the media acting like we were trash, and dudes like Durant talking about how "toxic" the environment was LOL, watching them have to eat it was similarly priceless.
Ya who knows what the future holds but I do feel like the team is more stable now with magic out and pelinka having full control, Jeannie in place of Jim, and Vogel’s coaching staff in place of waltons coaching staff. All those changes have increased the competency and stability of the organization and I don’t think “team lebron” made all that happen but I don’t know he has a had a tremendous influence.
I appreciate your optimism, but I'll list the things that worry me. Do not interpret this as Chicken Little post or a piss and moan post. I'm just going to lay out some of the things that worry me going forward.
Jeanie did not replace Jim. She's in the same position as she always was. But this is an unfortunately familiar scenario: a successful patriarch (in this case, Dr. Buss) is so personally invested in his creation (the modern Lakers) that he wants to keep it in the family and leaves it to his kids. But the kids are usually mediocre and wind up running the family business into the ground. Jim Buss is an easy target, but none of the older kids have shown their dad's acumen. Jeanie is not as openly involved in the operation of the team, but her big decision so far has been hiring Magic, and it wasn't long ago that the media was pounding her for her reliance on the Rambi. Right now, winning diverts attention, but when the Lebron era ends (and maybe even before then), Jeanie will be back in the spotlight.
You say that Pelinka is now in full control, but he isn't. Team Lebron has orchestrated the major moves. Right now, we are looking good, so a lot of people are on the Pelinka bandwagon. I'm not sold yet, but I'm hopeful. How is he going to do when Team Lebron isn't setting things up for him? We shall see. Furthermore, if we go into a lean period, and the fans have torches and pitchforks out, how long will it take before Jeanie puts a knife in his back? Again, we shall see.
Finally, I'm concerned about the assumption that we can just re-load around Davis. He's a really good player, but he's not a magnet like Lebron. Furthermore, I'm not sure that he's a floor-raiser. He had some decent supporting casts in New Orleans (though some people will tell you otherwise), and he didn't accomplish much. If you compare what he did to what Giannis and Jokic have done, it's a stark difference. Some guys are just better as the sidekick than as the alpha. I hope that Pelinka manages to bring in a star to replace Lebron as the floor leader, but that's easier said than done. I can see a scenario in which we wind up in the purgatory of the 6-10 seeds.
Again, no Chicken Little here. I'm just laying out why I'm not comfortable with the direction of the franchise. We need to win another title or two during the Lebron era. Otherwise, we may look back on this era and decide that we were just spinning our wheels, notwithstanding the bubble title.
I look at it somewhat the same.
First, I don't think the Lakers will ever return to the Jerry Buss era, where it seemed like we only had to snap our fingers to win a title. The Lakers will be desirable enough to get good players to stay in the mix. But I don't think we'll be in a situation where we will automatically have goat level players paving our way to the finals.
Second, I agree right now we are just another team under the control of Lebron incorporated. We won't be able to tell what kind of GM we have until Lebron moves on.
Third, AD is a very good player, but he's not so good that he rubber stamps you to the finals or has other stars clamoring to play with him. However, there are probably only two or three players of that caliber in the league at any given time, so I don't necessarily think the Lakers will always have one of those players.
Fourth, in a sense we sold our soul to get Lebron who brought us a title. Personally, I don't mind that, because I think the chances are pretty good that any other choice we would have made wouldn't have resulted in any particular long-term success. That's a guess, of course, and there will never be a way to test if I'm right or wrong.
Fifth, I'm not one of those who have an expectation that the Lakers will be able to compete and then immediately reload in a quick fashion. Lakers fans have a sense of entitlement, even after the decade we had before getting Lebron. It's probably going to take a Celtics type drought to change that. But after Lebron leaves it went in shock me to see us go decades without winning a ring. There's a lot more luck than people want to admit in creating a dynasty, and the Lakers have already had more than our share of luck.
The fact that we are having this convo is why people hate Laker fans. Go ask the 11 other fan bases that never won a chip if they would take our route. Those 6 seasons of being a laughing stock sucked. People taking shots at the Lakers left and right. Our downfall those years is what people had been waiting on. We weren’t even competitive. So yes it was worth it.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29281 Location: La La Land
Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 10:13 am Post subject:
^Just to add to what AH and AV are saying. Look at LBJ teams after he leaves. They’re gutted lotto teams. It’s happened to CLE twice now. MIA treaded water decently after Bron left. But some of that was cause its the (weak) East. The West is a different beast. West is so beastly, Bron might go 1 for 3 in terms of making the playoffs since being here.
Of course it was worth it. Anytime you get a championship it is worth it.
But once Bron declines/departs, we’ll have to find another person who can be the best player on a championship team. Most of the time there are less than 5 people in the league who fit that description. So a title drought is more likely than not. Ideally we build a big 3 this off-season. Win or lose. Than it’ll be easier to imagine ways we can win chips long term. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
The fact that we are having this convo is why people hate Laker fans. Go ask the 11 other fan bases that never won a chip if they would take our route. Those 6 seasons of being a laughing stock sucked. People taking shots at the Lakers left and right. Our downfall those years is what people had been waiting on. We weren’t even competitive. So yes it was worth it.
I don't care what some dumbass fans from other teams think... I care what's best for the Lakers long term.
We are forced into paying big money for Schroder right now and our two best players are injured. This is why you try to have quality depth so you have some assets to deal.
If we were Indiana or OKC... sure I'd go all in for a title... but since we're the Lakers I'd do what's best for long term sustainability. Obviously that ship has sailed, but there are reasonable arguments for both paths.
Don't get me wrong. I understand that once LBJ retires, he will leave a sizeable hole on the team. Massive. And AD isn't the type of player who can be a 1A on a championship team but can be an elite 1B player who feeds off a 1A.
But I just can't personally get mad at all that the Lakers went LBJ/Klutch. I'm not sure if we'd be in the playoffs if we went with the YUTES. The other problem no one is talking about is that free agents didn't exactly flock to join our YUTES. Neither did they do so with LBJ (i.e. PG13/Kawhi), but I don't think AD joins the Lakers without LBJ either.
So I'm going to continue enjoying this ride. I think we will really surprise teams these playoffs. But yeah I get what some of y'all are saying. We will have to rebuild (even with AD still around) when LBJ finally hangs them up (or joins the team that drafts his son). But I'll worry about that when that time comes. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
While we're on this topic....what if LeBron would not have been injured his first year with us....Remember we were in 3rd place in the west, I believe the 5th or 6th seed, and we just beat the hell out of the Warriors on Christmas day. If that team would've advanced to the WC finals would Pelinka and Klutch still have pursued AD in the off season? Or at the minimum would we have been able to keep Ingram or Ball? Just curious on our thoughts.
YES! Championships are extremely hard to win so we'll take 'em anyways we can. Who did we give up to sign Lebron again?
You could have all the talents and high draft picks in the world and still might not win a championship so yes, be very grateful Lebron blessed us with his presence and gifted us a nice championship tying with the Celtics. We were a lottery teams with a lot of "young talent" that get us more lottery picks every year. THINK ABOUT THE 7 YEARS OF SUFFERING!! DO NOT TAKE THIS MOMENT FOR GRANTED!!
Interestingly, a few years back the Celtics were considered to be in such a good spot with all their young talent and high draft picks while the lakers had young guys with potential but weren’t having much on court success. The lakers traded a lot of it away and became champions. The Celtics tried to hold on to their assets and young players while signing various all star types (hayward, Irving, walker) and basically plateaud as a solid playoff team but not good enough to win it all.
Exactly. You need the Lebrons, the Currys and the Leonards to win championships in this league. High draft picks and prospects are just that...draft picks and prospects. They might be good enough to get you a few playoff wins but they'll never get you to the top. You need the best players for that. The Celtics did try to get AD but to no avail. Ainge looked like a genius with all the fancy trades but in the end, the Celtics were always almost there but never got there. _________________ LeGoat! LeMazing! LeGend!
While we're on this topic....what if LeBron would not have been injured his first year with us....Remember we were in 3rd place in the west, I believe the 5th or 6th seed, and we just beat the hell out of the Warriors on Christmas day. If that team would've advanced to the WC finals would Pelinka and Klutch still have pursued AD in the off season? Or at the minimum would we have been able to keep Ingram or Ball? Just curious on our thoughts.
IIRC, while we were also trying to asset save, BI/Zo got injured too after LBJ and sat out a lot of games too. They were both very injure prone at the time. That's why I will always wonder about what would happen if we kept Jules (who was nowhere near the player he was today, but ended up signing for $9m/year with the Pels). _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
While we're on this topic....what if LeBron would not have been injured his first year with us....Remember we were in 3rd place in the west, I believe the 5th or 6th seed, and we just beat the hell out of the Warriors on Christmas day. If that team would've advanced to the WC finals would Pelinka and Klutch still have pursued AD in the off season? Or at the minimum would we have been able to keep Ingram or Ball? Just curious on our thoughts.
IIRC, while we were also trying to asset save, BI/Zo got injured too after LBJ and sat out a lot of games too. They were both very injure prone at the time. That's why I will always wonder about what would happen if we kept Jules (who was nowhere near the player he was today, but ended up signing for $9m/year with the Pels).
You're 100% right....I was saying if no one got hurt, especially Bron. But Jules to me was different because my understanding is that when Bron signed he wanted out. Did not want to play with him...I guess he didn't believe he could grow with Bron...needed his own spot light I assume.
While we're on this topic....what if LeBron would not have been injured his first year with us....Remember we were in 3rd place in the west, I believe the 5th or 6th seed, and we just beat the hell out of the Warriors on Christmas day. If that team would've advanced to the WC finals would Pelinka and Klutch still have pursued AD in the off season? Or at the minimum would we have been able to keep Ingram or Ball? Just curious on our thoughts.
No way that team could get to the WFC even with LBJ healty.
It had clear flaws in its construction thanks to Earvin Johnson.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35812 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 1:38 pm Post subject:
King Randle wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
King Randle wrote:
While we're on this topic....what if LeBron would not have been injured his first year with us....Remember we were in 3rd place in the west, I believe the 5th or 6th seed, and we just beat the hell out of the Warriors on Christmas day. If that team would've advanced to the WC finals would Pelinka and Klutch still have pursued AD in the off season? Or at the minimum would we have been able to keep Ingram or Ball? Just curious on our thoughts.
IIRC, while we were also trying to asset save, BI/Zo got injured too after LBJ and sat out a lot of games too. They were both very injure prone at the time. That's why I will always wonder about what would happen if we kept Jules (who was nowhere near the player he was today, but ended up signing for $9m/year with the Pels).
You're 100% right....I was saying if no one got hurt, especially Bron. But Jules to me was different because my understanding is that when Bron signed he wanted out. Did not want to play with him...I guess he didn't believe he could grow with Bron...needed his own spot light I assume.
Randle in a lot of ways is sort of a poor man’s LeBron. Don’t know how the two could have co-existed. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
The Lakers already won a title. They are still a favorite to win this season. They likely have at least two more seasons of contention.
If that isn't worth it then maybe it's time to cheer for the Kings or some other team perpetually in the lottery always hoping that one of those young kids is going to take you to the promised land.
Don't get me wrong. It's tough seeing guys like Randle and Ingram leave the team and turn into All-Stars (Russell as well to a lesser extent). The Lakers have two players better than any of those guys right now. And guys like Schroder, Drummond, T-Rez are better than the likes of Lonzo, Hart, Zubac and Bryant.
The Lakers have dealt with injuries this season. Let's not pretend that Ingram, Lonzo, or Russell were iron men...
While we're on this topic....what if LeBron would not have been injured his first year with us....Remember we were in 3rd place in the west, I believe the 5th or 6th seed, and we just beat the hell out of the Warriors on Christmas day. If that team would've advanced to the WC finals would Pelinka and Klutch still have pursued AD in the off season? Or at the minimum would we have been able to keep Ingram or Ball? Just curious on our thoughts.
IIRC, while we were also trying to asset save, BI/Zo got injured too after LBJ and sat out a lot of games too. They were both very injure prone at the time. That's why I will always wonder about what would happen if we kept Jules (who was nowhere near the player he was today, but ended up signing for $9m/year with the Pels).
You're 100% right....I was saying if no one got hurt, especially Bron. But Jules to me was different because my understanding is that when Bron signed he wanted out. Did not want to play with him...I guess he didn't believe he could grow with Bron...needed his own spot light I assume.
I think everyone of our lottery picks, with the exception of Zo, needed to be in their own team as the "man." BI was a bit of a clunky fit being LBJ's Robin. I guess Jules felt the same and DLO was already gone too. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
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