In retrospect...was it worth it?
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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:12 pm    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
People keep mentioning how some teams have never won a title but we are the Lakers who average 2.5 titles per decade since 1980

So regressing to one title a decade isn't really a success by Lakers standards.

If we win this year... then one can make that claim it was unquestionably a good move. If we lose and regress back into the dark ages... we are now headed towards a one title per decade average which is below our Dr. Buss era standards.

But you keep telling yourselves how brilliant it was that we are now in a position where we need to sign Schroder for over 20 million plus because we've gotten rid of all our picks and young assets.

Denver has MPJ, Jokic, Murray, Aaron Gordon, Bol Bol as a young core.

We have THT... then AD, Kuzma and Schroder as a youngish core.

Giving up everything for one title is not living up to Lakers standards.


We won every decade because we got transcendent talents every decade. West, Baylor, Mikan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Shaq, Pau, and now Lebron and AD. I love the kids, and they’re all playing pretty well, but not a one of them has looked like a transcendent talent. If we kept them, it’s far more likely we’d be a capped out middling team than a team poised to win multiple rings over the next decade. Rings are rare and hard. You take them when you can get them and don’t look back.


The only reason we were in a position to win this season is because we had MVP quality LBJ. You can put LBJ on 20 of the 30 teams in the NBA and he would win the title with them.

The kids were always meant to be the supporting cast and we were supposed to sign two elites and keep the best of them and our picks.

Unfortunately LBJ tore his groin and got frustrated. If he hadn't we'd have a way more well rounded team right now with all of our picks.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:13 pm    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
People keep mentioning how some teams have never won a title but we are the Lakers who average 2.5 titles per decade since 1980

So regressing to one title a decade isn't really a success by Lakers standards.

If we win this year... then one can make that claim it was unquestionably a good move. If we lose and regress back into the dark ages... we are now headed towards a one title per decade average which is below our Dr. Buss era standards.

But you keep telling yourselves how brilliant it was that we are now in a position where we need to sign Schroder for over 20 million plus because we've gotten rid of all our picks and young assets.

Denver has MPJ, Jokic, Murray, Aaron Gordon, Bol Bol as a young core.

We have THT... then AD, Kuzma and Schroder as a youngish core.

Giving up everything for one title is not living up to Lakers standards.



The NBA is a lot different than it was 20 or 40 years ago. If the only thing that will satisfy you is Showtime type success, you're just setting yourself up to be disappointed.

It's like a bulls fan saying a single ring today would disappoint them because they've averaged two rings a decade for the past three decades. The stat is true, but it's irrelevant to 2021.


That's fair but let's face the fact that people keep using a very fortunate win last season to justify a questionably aggressive strategy to satisfy LBJ.

If people said both ways were viable paths, I don't have a problem with it.

The way they say it was the only way is absolutely ludicrous in my opinion.


I see it in a more straightforward way.

We won a ring last year. Therefore, we know the strategy we actually took was successful.

We have no idea if an alternative strategy of keeping the existing players would have resulted in success or not.

So I will take the actual, proven success, over a guess of what might have happened with an alternative strategy.


But people are already declaring victory when we've averaged 2.5 titles per 10 years the past 40 years when we might end up winning one in ten if we don't win this season. No one knows what happens if LBJ doesn't tear his groin.

One in ten is not modern Lakers success... And most pundits thought we were not going to win last year but we got hot from three and signed two hall of fame players at minimum salaries.

It wasn't a well constructed plan... but people are trying to argue like it was.


As opposed to missing the playoffs 6 years straight with the YUTES (and one year of LBJ)?


We were headed for the playoffs before LBJ tore his groin. You yourself have said we must sign Schroder because we have no other choice. You can spin this all you want but it is not an ideal position to be in right now.


Lol. Bc I’m not tripping about “only” having AD/LBJ. I’m not concerned about rebuilding. We need to reload to keep it going and losing Dennis for nothing hurts us. What a disingenuous argument.
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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:16 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
People keep mentioning how some teams have never won a title but we are the Lakers who average 2.5 titles per decade since 1980

So regressing to one title a decade isn't really a success by Lakers standards.

If we win this year... then one can make that claim it was unquestionably a good move. If we lose and regress back into the dark ages... we are now headed towards a one title per decade average which is below our Dr. Buss era standards.

But you keep telling yourselves how brilliant it was that we are now in a position where we need to sign Schroder for over 20 million plus because we've gotten rid of all our picks and young assets.

Denver has MPJ, Jokic, Murray, Aaron Gordon, Bol Bol as a young core.

We have THT... then AD, Kuzma and Schroder as a youngish core.

Giving up everything for one title is not living up to Lakers standards.



The NBA is a lot different than it was 20 or 40 years ago. If the only thing that will satisfy you is Showtime type success, you're just setting yourself up to be disappointed.

It's like a bulls fan saying a single ring today would disappoint them because they've averaged two rings a decade for the past three decades. The stat is true, but it's irrelevant to 2021.


That's fair but let's face the fact that people keep using a very fortunate win last season to justify a questionably aggressive strategy to satisfy LBJ.

If people said both ways were viable paths, I don't have a problem with it.

The way they say it was the only way is absolutely ludicrous in my opinion.


I see it in a more straightforward way.

We won a ring last year. Therefore, we know the strategy we actually took was successful.

We have no idea if an alternative strategy of keeping the existing players would have resulted in success or not.

So I will take the actual, proven success, over a guess of what might have happened with an alternative strategy.


But people are already declaring victory when we've averaged 2.5 titles per 10 years the past 40 years when we might end up winning one in ten if we don't win this season. No one knows what happens if LBJ doesn't tear his groin.

One in ten is not modern Lakers success... And most pundits thought we were not going to win last year but we got hot from three and signed two hall of fame players at minimum salaries.

It wasn't a well constructed plan... but people are trying to argue like it was.


As opposed to missing the playoffs 6 years straight with the YUTES (and one year of LBJ)?


We were headed for the playoffs before LBJ tore his groin. You yourself have said we must sign Schroder because we have no other choice. You can spin this all you want but it is not an ideal position to be in right now.


Lol. Bc I’m not tripping about “only” having AD/LBJ. I’m not concerned about rebuilding. We need to reload to keep it going and losing Dennis for nothing hurts us. What a disingenuous argument.


You think AD is worth more than the best of our youth... all of our cost controlled lesser players and draft picks. I disagree.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:18 pm    Post subject:

Yeah I do. Because it literally led to a championship. All you have is speculation. Enjoy your alternative universe.
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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:21 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Yeah I do. Because it literally led to a championship. All you have is speculation. Enjoy your alternative universe.


Why do I think the Dodgers have the best team in baseball?

Because they have the best position players and a deep starting rotation.

If they lose the title, and the Angels win, I won't think the Angels were wise to have no pitching and have a superior team to the Dodgers. I would say they got lucky and be happy for them.

Just because you won means nothing in terms of choosing the best team.
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:22 pm    Post subject:

Sentient Meat. Lol
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:30 pm    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Yeah I do. Because it literally led to a championship. All you have is speculation. Enjoy your alternative universe.


Why do I think the Dodgers have the best team in baseball?

Because they have the best position players and a deep starting rotation.

If they lose the title, and the Angels win, I won't think the Angels were wise to have no pitching and have a superior team to the Dodgers. I would say they got lucky and be happy for them.

Just because you won means nothing in terms of choosing the best team.


What the heck are you talking about SM?
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:31 pm    Post subject:

Tell us it wasn't worth it. I remember you not wanting Lebron at all.

It was totally worth it. I don't think our youth would have ever won a ring. They would have been maxed out to a certain point after having to pick and choose which ones to build around. There are a lot of all-star players in this league but there isn't a lot of franchise altering players. I don't think any of those young guys fall into that category.
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:37 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
My only quip is how we literally dumped Jules. Wish we could have held onto him. BI/Zo/4 were absolutely worth getting AD and the 2020 ring.


My sentiments as well. Not sure why this stupid was it worth it question keeps coming up. Championship = worth it.
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:41 pm    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
Lakerwayne wrote:
BILBJH wrote:


We have THT... then AD, Kuzma and Schroder as a youngish core


I would add Caruso there.

To answer the question I would agree with other ppl here that it was worth it. Even if it was possible to keep that group together under the salary cap I don’t think they would have ever reached championship success. The team that won last year was constructed to fit together with players games complementing one another, so the team would add up to more than the sum of its parts. When it’s a bunch of draft picks and you were choosing bpa the players don’t always complement eachother as well and I think that would have been the case with the lakers had they kept all those guys.


It's not about keeping the entire group together. Obviously we'd could only afford half or less of the key players. It's about having maybe two young stars... some good cost controlled role players and all of our picks.

I can't believe people are so stubborn that they continue to deny we are in a tough place right now in terms of assets.


Ya I can see that. It seems like what you are saying is that maybe there was another way to win a championship and still also be in a better place right now in terms of assets and youth. I guess it’s possible. I’m not sure who you were referring to as people who are so stubborn to continue to deny we are in a tough place right now in terms of assets. Is that me? Not sure but here’s what I do think about the team in terms of assets, youth, and future prospects: Most teams that win championships are veteran teams going all in so this team is no exception. So ya there are no obvious young stars on this team or anything but there are some good younger players including tht kuz and Caruso that still have some room to grow (especially tht) and guys in their early primes like ad schroeder kcp and others so it’s not an “old” team especially as championship rosters go. I hope we keep those younger homegrown guys (kuz Caruso and tht) and some of the picks we still have. I don’t think the team is in a great spot assets wise but not horrible either. Maybe a bit tough but could be worse it’s ok. So I’ll take a team coming off a championship that’s still got a bit left in terms of assets over a what if scenario u know? With all that said ya it was sad to see some of those players go I think I knew Ingram and randle were gonna be this good and never wanted to lose them but ya it happens. Earlier this season before Drummond came along though I spent more time thinking about how role players the team let go like brook lopez and Ivica zubac could have been helpful but whatever Drummond and gasol are more than capable. This team is really good and just needs to put it together. And I don’t think the future of this team is necessarily bleak I think it’s a veteran championship team that still has some younger/early prime guys and some picks left so needs to manage what’s left properly and not squander (like sometimes happened in the past) if they want to continue to be a good team and/or compete for championships.
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject:

It was worth it. Going ten years without a chip felt like an eternity. Maybe in an alternate universe, Luke Walton was going to wave a magic wand and find a way to fully develop the yutes.
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:47 pm    Post subject:

Lakerwayne wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
Lakerwayne wrote:
BILBJH wrote:


We have THT... then AD, Kuzma and Schroder as a youngish core


I would add Caruso there.

To answer the question I would agree with other ppl here that it was worth it. Even if it was possible to keep that group together under the salary cap I don’t think they would have ever reached championship success. The team that won last year was constructed to fit together with players games complementing one another, so the team would add up to more than the sum of its parts. When it’s a bunch of draft picks and you were choosing bpa the players don’t always complement eachother as well and I think that would have been the case with the lakers had they kept all those guys.


It's not about keeping the entire group together. Obviously we'd could only afford half or less of the key players. It's about having maybe two young stars... some good cost controlled role players and all of our picks.

I can't believe people are so stubborn that they continue to deny we are in a tough place right now in terms of assets.


Ya I can see that. It seems like what you are saying is that maybe there was another way to win a championship and still also be in a better place right now in terms of assets and youth. I guess it’s possible. I’m not sure who you were referring to as people who are so stubborn to continue to deny we are in a tough place right now in terms of assets. Is that me? Not sure but here’s what I do think about the team in terms of assets, youth, and future prospects: Most teams that win championships are veteran teams going all in so this team is no exception. So ya there are no obvious young stars on this team or anything but there are some good younger players including tht kuz and Caruso that still have some room to grow (especially tht) and guys in their early primes like ad schroeder kcp and others so it’s not an “old” team especially as championship rosters go. I hope we keep those younger homegrown guys (kuz Caruso and tht) and some of the picks we still have. I don’t think the team is in a great spot assets wise but not horrible either. Maybe a bit tough but could be worse it’s ok. So I’ll take a team coming off a championship that’s still got a bit left in terms of assets over a what if scenario u know? With all that said ya it was sad to see some of those players go I think I knew Ingram and randle were gonna be this good and never wanted to lose them but ya it happens. Earlier this season before Drummond came along though I spent more time thinking about how role players the team let go like brook lopez and Ivica zubac could have been helpful but whatever Drummond and gasol are more than capable. This team is really good and just needs to put it together. And I don’t think the future of this team is necessarily bleak I think it’s a veteran championship team that still has some younger/early prime guys and some picks left so needs to manage what’s left properly and not squander (like sometimes happened in the past) if they want to continue to be a good team and/or compete for championships.


Thanks for the civil reply.

I think if LBJ quits when his time has come and doesn't try to linger on when he no longer has it... and we sign someone like Dame to pair with AD then that will correct a lot of problems quickly.

But if he stays too long after he declines it will be very difficult for awhile and be very reminiscent of a recent tough spell for the franchise.

I just felt keeping more assets would allow the team to have a smoother transition into the post LBJ era.
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:57 pm    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:


we sign someone like Dame to pair with AD then that will correct a lot of problems quickly.

But if he stays too long after he declines it will be very difficult for awhile and be very reminiscent of a recent tough spell for the franchise.

I just felt keeping more assets would allow the team to have a smoother transition into the post LBJ era.


I am actually more afraid of what we look like without Bron because I have my questions about AD being the man of a franchise. I think he is the perfect complimentary piece, and I say that with all respect because I do feel he is better than just a second option because of what he brings defensively. However, we got an all-time great shooting performance from him in the playoffs last year. He was hitting at a clip from mid-range and deep, he's never hit at his entire career. It made him look like the best player on the roster in a lot of peoples eyes but that obviously wasn't sustainable.

My fear of pairing him with someone like Lillard is we don't see little guards with defensive issues leading teams to championships.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:00 am    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
Lakerwayne wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
Lakerwayne wrote:
BILBJH wrote:


We have THT... then AD, Kuzma and Schroder as a youngish core


I would add Caruso there.

To answer the question I would agree with other ppl here that it was worth it. Even if it was possible to keep that group together under the salary cap I don’t think they would have ever reached championship success. The team that won last year was constructed to fit together with players games complementing one another, so the team would add up to more than the sum of its parts. When it’s a bunch of draft picks and you were choosing bpa the players don’t always complement eachother as well and I think that would have been the case with the lakers had they kept all those guys.


It's not about keeping the entire group together. Obviously we'd could only afford half or less of the key players. It's about having maybe two young stars... some good cost controlled role players and all of our picks.

I can't believe people are so stubborn that they continue to deny we are in a tough place right now in terms of assets.


Ya I can see that. It seems like what you are saying is that maybe there was another way to win a championship and still also be in a better place right now in terms of assets and youth. I guess it’s possible. I’m not sure who you were referring to as people who are so stubborn to continue to deny we are in a tough place right now in terms of assets. Is that me? Not sure but here’s what I do think about the team in terms of assets, youth, and future prospects: Most teams that win championships are veteran teams going all in so this team is no exception. So ya there are no obvious young stars on this team or anything but there are some good younger players including tht kuz and Caruso that still have some room to grow (especially tht) and guys in their early primes like ad schroeder kcp and others so it’s not an “old” team especially as championship rosters go. I hope we keep those younger homegrown guys (kuz Caruso and tht) and some of the picks we still have. I don’t think the team is in a great spot assets wise but not horrible either. Maybe a bit tough but could be worse it’s ok. So I’ll take a team coming off a championship that’s still got a bit left in terms of assets over a what if scenario u know? With all that said ya it was sad to see some of those players go I think I knew Ingram and randle were gonna be this good and never wanted to lose them but ya it happens. Earlier this season before Drummond came along though I spent more time thinking about how role players the team let go like brook lopez and Ivica zubac could have been helpful but whatever Drummond and gasol are more than capable. This team is really good and just needs to put it together. And I don’t think the future of this team is necessarily bleak I think it’s a veteran championship team that still has some younger/early prime guys and some picks left so needs to manage what’s left properly and not squander (like sometimes happened in the past) if they want to continue to be a good team and/or compete for championships.


Thanks for the civil reply.

I think if LBJ quits when his time has come and doesn't try to linger on when he no longer has it... and we sign someone like Dame to pair with AD then that will correct a lot of problems quickly.

But if he stays too long after he declines it will be very difficult for awhile and be very reminiscent of a recent tough spell for the franchise.

I just felt keeping more assets would allow the team to have a smoother transition into the post LBJ era.


So correct me if I'm wrong, it seems you have some scenario in your mind where the Lakers get lebron, we also get AD, we don't give up all the assets we did to get AD. We still win a ring last year with AD and Lebron, however we also have these great assets to move forward with after LeBron retires and we immediately get another free agent superstar on top of all the assets we kept. Is that the scenario you're operating under?

Because, honestly, the more you post, it's not even clear to me what you were expecting the Lakers to do. It seems like you have this I want my cake and eat it too scenario

Now, if you're just saying it wasn't worth it to trade all the kids for AD, you'd give back last year's ring, and take a shot at more success over the long term with another strategy, that I get. I just don't get this idea that we keep all these assets and get AD too
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:02 am    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:

You think AD is worth more than the best of our youth... all of our cost controlled lesser players and draft picks. I disagree.


100%!!! AD is a unicorn, outside of max $ BI, who else is also not replacable?
Jordan Clarkson who is balling?
DLo at max?
Ball asking $20m+?
Randle at end of $18m/yr, bout get more?
Zubac?
Hart?
the 4th pick Hunter?
Moe Wagner?
Bonga?
Svi?

They're all replacable, it's basically AD for BI and it got us #17 already
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:12 am    Post subject:

Yes, totally worth it. As much as some guys here love the youth and the good ol' days, those guys would have won us nothing. It took Lebron and Davis to win us a ring. As much as some of those guys like Randle, Clarkson, etc., have gotten better, they still win you nothing.

A title is everything, watching a bunch of good players win nothing, is not.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:34 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
BILBJH wrote:

You think AD is worth more than the best of our youth... all of our cost controlled lesser players and draft picks. I disagree.


100%!!! AD is a unicorn, outside of max $ BI, who else is also not replacable?
Jordan Clarkson who is balling?
DLo at max?
Ball asking $20m+?
Randle at end of $18m/yr, bout get more?
Zubac?
Hart?
the 4th pick Hunter?
Moe Wagner?
Bonga?
Svi?

They're all replacable, it's basically AD for BI and it got us #17 already


Dlo and Randle were FA's when we had max slots if we wanted to get them back. Zubac, Clarkson and Nance were Magic moves and the cost of being stupid - unrelated to getting AD. Svi is available now.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:37 am    Post subject:

Part of the issue was Magic screwing up dumping assets for nothing. The Zubac trade was epic fail. The fact he let Julius walk for nothing was epic fail. The way he set the framework for the AD trade screwed Robs ability to negotiate.

That stuff still haunts us now because assets are tight. Rob has had to make up for all that on the fly.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:52 am    Post subject:

BandwagonLBJhopper wrote:
Part of the issue was Magic screwing up dumping assets for nothing. The Zubac trade was epic fail. The fact he let Julius walk for nothing was epic fail. The way he set the framework for the AD trade screwed Robs ability to negotiate.

That stuff still haunts us now because assets are tight. Rob has had to make up for all that on the fly.


While I am never pleased to see an asset go for nothing, I think those two moves have become something of folklore in the ensuing years. We weren't going to pay Zubac, who I believe was an RFA a few months after we traded him. He wasn't in the team's plans for the next season and they got two rentals to try and salvage a playoff run. It certainly was a bad trade, but Zubac is a decent C making more than he's worth.

They tried to move Randle. Keep in mind, they weren't trading NYK Randle. Reports were they couldn't get a 1st round pick for him. Randle was let go so they could sign Rondo, who ended up playing a pretty significant role on the title team.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:06 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:


They tried to move Randle. Keep in mind, they weren't trading NYK Randle. Reports were they couldn't get a 1st round pick for him. Randle was let go so they could sign Rondo, who ended up playing a pretty significant role on the title team.


This understates how bad the asset management was. Management panned Randle publicly all through the season, fanned skepticism about his abilities and role and generally treated him as if he was disposable. Contrast this with how other GM's around the league treat their own assets - even if they intend to trade them away. they understand marketing and profile building.
(Oh and getting Rondo was absolutely the right call - but does not excuse getting 0 for your own 8th pick that you've spent countless dollars and coaching hours training and teaching)
One can say the Lakers got back exactly the value they projected for Randle - 0.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:14 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
ocho wrote:


They tried to move Randle. Keep in mind, they weren't trading NYK Randle. Reports were they couldn't get a 1st round pick for him. Randle was let go so they could sign Rondo, who ended up playing a pretty significant role on the title team.


This understates how bad the asset management was. Management panned Randle publicly all through the season, fanned skepticism about his abilities and role and generally treated him as if he was disposable. Contrast this with how other GM's around the league treat their own assets - even if they intend to trade them away. they understand marketing and profile building.
(Oh and getting Rondo was absolutely the right call - but does not excuse getting 0 for your own 8th pick that you've spent countless dollars and coaching hours training and teaching)
One can say the Lakers got back exactly the value they projected for Randle - 0.


Again, a bit of folklore. I’ll need you to provide examples of management panning Randle publicly. I’d hear that argument for Russell but don’t recall anything of the sort for Randle. I think you overrate what an offhand comment from Magic can do. He talked about Lonzo and Ingram like the second coming of Christ and it still took everything we had for the Davis deal (with no other suitors!) NBA teams don’t rely on Magic Johnson’s commentary to evaluate players. There were real questions at the time as to what kind of player Randle even was and how effective he could be. He has answered those questions, to his credit. So it’s a tough pill to swallow to say we should have gotten something for him when we tried and couldn’t, and to then also say Rondo was the right call but we got 0 for Randle while leaving out that there’s no Rondo without releasing Randle.
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troy
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:21 am    Post subject:

Yes, it was worth it. And if not for Robert Pelinka's destruction of our Championship team, we'd likely be in position for a repeat.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:26 am    Post subject:

A championship is never worth it. HARD PASS!
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:29 am    Post subject:

troy wrote:
Yes, it was worth it. And if not for Robert Pelinka's destruction of our Championship team, we'd likely be in position for a repeat.


That's not fair. Injuries to our two best players set us back. Season isn't over.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:34 am    Post subject:

Something that bugs me is we essentially wasted LeBron’s first year here by not having a second star. And then we got a bit greedy by holding out for Kawhi instead of just signing Jimmy Butler as our third star last season.

I feel like the LeBron era should have resulted in multiple rings instead of just one.
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