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mad55557777 Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 22801
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Posted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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vasashi17+ wrote: | Cant really apologize for running it back, cause last year’s team had flaws just as much as this year’s version. Pelinka knew that the COVID pause last year was unique and allowed Bron & AD to refresh. We won last year off of Bron/AD’s brilliance imho and that is a direct result of them getting healthy with last year’s hiatus during the season.
If Bron and AD got sufficient rest again, I would have liked our chances this year as well. But playmaking falls entirely on Bron this year in the postseason, last year it didn’t. So no rest for you Bron. Drummond was a late add, so it came down to Marc and Trezz having to shoulder the center position during the regular season and we been knowing that Marc has been slowing down over the years and can’t be a 30min per guy and as for Trezz, he’s a defensive liability at the 5 which would suggest limited minutes with Vogel at the helm. Losing Dwight for the same vet min amount and then having to shed McGee to give Marc a two year deal was part of what did us in. Having Schro be Bron’s primary backup in playmaking is what did us in. Now our duo are hobbled as a result.
If Rob needs to apologize, it’s for botching the 2019 summer where we had the ability to construct a new coaching staff, get a max FA and still then trade for AD. Instead, we got like our 3rd choice at HC with no offensive acumen to his name, we didn’t get a 3rd max guy to help Bron and eventually AD in playmaking and we gave up entirely too many assets for a distressed asset in AD who pretty much used every tactic in the book (including using his pops to dare Ainge to trade for his son) to force his way to LA and yet we still gave up unnecessary draft capital when we were handed that type of leverage from AD/Klutch.
Rob had partial fault in letting Jules walk for nothing in return and not retaining TB’s trivial caphold for unrealized cap space, then gave up additional assets for a 3rd max slot, only to not really have that player commit in the end. Here’s a thought...get a verbal commitment from dude and then pull the trigger in dumping assets to clear space for that 3rd max.
Had we been more judicious with our assets (ie coaching options and cap space), then Bron and AD wouldn’t need to be entirely relied upon last year as well as this year.
Imho, we were lucky to have the COVID break last year, otherwise both sets of rosters had holes in them that would derail any title aspirations we hoped to have.
Btw, roster construction to me is having a deep enough squad that can help you get by during the regular season so that your stars can really come through in the postseason. Rob had the right idea in wanting to have a team with 3 stars on it. He has yet to succeed in that regard, so if anything apologize for that. But then again, he took MozDeng and turned it into at least 2 stars, so he deserves kudos for at least that, right!? |
Letting Jules walk was Magic’s decision. Vogel is a great defensive mind and with lebron running offense, I’d actually prefer a defensive guru. Defense won us the championship last season. |
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unleasHell Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001 Posts: 11591 Location: Stay Thirsty my Friends
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Has any/many teams went from being the Champions to missing the Playoffs the following season? _________________ “Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.” |
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AirTupac Star Player
Joined: 04 Feb 2018 Posts: 1234
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:26 am Post subject: |
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unleasHell wrote: | Has any/many teams went from being the Champions to missing the Playoffs the following season? |
Has any team not made playoffs and then won a ring the following season? Yes the Lakers. _________________ I love my Lakies |
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vasashi17+ Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2019 Posts: 5610
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:57 am Post subject: |
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mad55557777 wrote: |
Letting Jules walk was Magic’s decision. Vogel is a great defensive mind and with lebron running offense, I’d actually prefer a defensive guru. Defense won us the championship last season. |
Not to mintz my words, but simply put every negative transaction has the “it was all Magic’s fault” narrative which is a convenient way to deflect any blame away from Rob. If rumors are to be believed, then Magic was an absentee exec who didn’t put in the work due to his other non-bball related interests and if that’s the case, Rob was the 9-5er that showed up everyday. Maybe it’s that guy that knows our cap sheet and creates options for what to do with each transaction. If Rob brought to Magic that rescinding Jules restricted status was the best option to clear cap, then yikes. Bad decision Magic, but you’re only as good as your options.
Fact remains that it was Rob who had the ins with Jules agent and the 500k tampering fine of George is the proof. If Rob couldn’t find a way to close some type of deal with Jules, then you get a dude that flips the script and decides not to stay...just ask Dwight. For whatever reason Jules 180’d on his decision to play with Bron, cause that whole entire 2017/18 season had reporters asking Jules how he felt on Bron’s impending free agency and Jules continuously said Bron would do wonders for his game if he had the opportunity to play with Bron. Still, if dude didn’t want to stay, how we couldn’t set up at least gaining some form of assets back for Jules is a waste and we’ve seen it time and time again with future 2nd rounders, Moe, Bonga, TB, Zu, Svi, etc. some of those transactions happened with Magic, but some were certainly without. Like the coaching search...
And I would agree with you that you can make Bron the de facto OC player/coach, with Vogel as HC, but maybe 20 something Bron rather than 36 y/o Bron. When you invest in a player at that stage in his career and with that many miles, you gotta protect that investment....even from his own ego. Bron is capable of running full time point gawd during the regular season, but is it smart to do when you anticipate going deep into the playoffs?
I do agree with you wholeheartedly that defense wins championships. But wouldn’t you agree that defense is all about putting in effort. If you want enough juice on that side of the ball, you can’t be overworking yourselves on offense. Had we been more efficient on offense, our defense could be even better than it is right now/last year. Again props to Rob for wanting to have a Lue/Thibs or Vogs coaching configuration, but once again, dude couldn’t close that deal. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:59 am Post subject: |
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unleasHell wrote: | Has any/many teams went from being the Champions to missing the Playoffs the following season? |
Bulls. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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Outspoken Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 Posts: 8447
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 2:44 am Post subject: |
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AirTupac wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Has any/many teams went from being the Champions to missing the Playoffs the following season? |
Has any team not made playoffs and then won a ring the following season? Yes the Lakers. |
And then Rob broke up that team, which is associated with the point of this thread. |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Outspoken wrote: | AirTupac wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Has any/many teams went from being the Champions to missing the Playoffs the following season? |
Has any team not made playoffs and then won a ring the following season? Yes the Lakers. |
And then Rob broke up that team, which is associated with the point of this thread. |
Do you think last year team (with same injury to Bron and AD) have a better record than this year's team. Drummond/MacLemore pick up included? I don't, I think they'll be worse |
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rst08tierney Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 Feb 2009 Posts: 970
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 7:52 am Post subject: |
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these guys had ZERO time to rest after playing a covid season in the bubble last year. I think we all knew health would play a factor this season. Thats why Rob went with a younger PG and a Center in Gasol who could slow the game down. Injuries and Covid protocol caught up to this team but its far from over. |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 16656
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:04 am Post subject: |
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If we had identical team as last year we would be out of playoffs right now. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Outspoken wrote: | AirTupac wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Has any/many teams went from being the Champions to missing the Playoffs the following season? |
Has any team not made playoffs and then won a ring the following season? Yes the Lakers. |
And then Rob broke up that team, which is associated with the point of this thread. |
To say he "broke up" the team is a little too dramatic and silly to me.
Three key rotation guys from the playoffs left. Green, Rondo and Dwight.
In terms of minutes, they were numbers 4, 7, and 9 during the playoffs.
Basically, the Lakers replaced one starter (who frankly most people were disappointed with) and two backups. You can certainly debate whether or not the swap outs were a smart decision, but the team wasn't broken up, and the swap outs aren't the reason the team is struggling now. |
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AirTupac Star Player
Joined: 04 Feb 2018 Posts: 1234
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:05 am Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | Outspoken wrote: | AirTupac wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Has any/many teams went from being the Champions to missing the Playoffs the following season? |
Has any team not made playoffs and then won a ring the following season? Yes the Lakers. |
And then Rob broke up that team, which is associated with the point of this thread. |
To say he "broke up" the team is a little too dramatic and silly to me.
Three key rotation guys from the playoffs left. Green, Rondo and Dwight.
In terms of minutes, they were numbers 4, 7, and 9 during the playoffs.
Basically, the Lakers replaced one starter (who frankly most people were disappointed with) and two backups. You can certainly debate whether or not the swap outs were a smart decision, but the team wasn't broken up, and the swap outs aren't the reason the team is struggling now. |
People are arguing that we should have relied on Rondo, Green, Dwight and Javale with all of our injuries this season and assume that same said players wouldnt get injured themselves more with the increased workload. Lol. Just lol. _________________ I love my Lakies |
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lakersfever714 Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 11599
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Lakers 2020 record: 52-19 (73%)
Lakers 2021 record before Lebron injury: 28-13 (68%)
Assuming if AD was the same this year as last year, we could maybe add three more percentage points to the winrate to make it 71%. Still less than last year. Hence, last year's team is better.
It gets even better because last year's regular season record was with "regular" Rondo so if we took a 73% win team and upgraded Rondo to playoff Rondo, we would have a team that was seemingly unbeatable, which was exactly what we were.
This year, we did not look great against top competition like the Clippers and the 76ers even when everyone was still healthy. Our glaring weakness at rim protection and rebounding was exposed in a lot of games.
I rest my case. _________________ LeGoat! LeMazing! LeGend! |
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ThePageDude Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 2563
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:27 am Post subject: |
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lakersfever714 wrote: | Lakers 2020 record: 52-19 (73%)
Lakers 2021 record before Lebron injury: 28-13 (68%)
Assuming if AD was the same this year as last year, we could maybe add three more percentage points to the winrate to make it 71%. Still less than last year. Hence, last year's team is better.
<snip>
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A difference of 2 wins in 41 games is nowhere near enough to prove last year's team was better - statistically speaking. |
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lakersfever714 Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 11599
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:35 am Post subject: |
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ThePageDude wrote: | lakersfever714 wrote: | Lakers 2020 record: 52-19 (73%)
Lakers 2021 record before Lebron injury: 28-13 (68%)
Assuming if AD was the same this year as last year, we could maybe add three more percentage points to the winrate to make it 71%. Still less than last year. Hence, last year's team is better.
<snip>
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A difference of 2 wins in 41 games is nowhere near enough to prove last year's team was better - statistically speaking. |
2 wins is 2 wins. Then people can't conclusively say that last year's team was worse either. Keep in mind that regular seson record was with regular Rondo so playoff Rondo made the team that much better.
The eye test:
This year's team still has not produced a "quality" win against a top tier opponent that made my eyes wide open and said "wow". I'm still waiting for it because comes playoff time, we'd have to produce a lot of those "quality" wins. _________________ LeGoat! LeMazing! LeGend! |
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ThePageDude Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 2563
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 10:17 am Post subject: |
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lakersfever714 wrote: | ThePageDude wrote: | lakersfever714 wrote: | Lakers 2020 record: 52-19 (73%)
Lakers 2021 record before Lebron injury: 28-13 (68%)
Assuming if AD was the same this year as last year, we could maybe add three more percentage points to the winrate to make it 71%. Still less than last year. Hence, last year's team is better.
<snip>
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A difference of 2 wins in 41 games is nowhere near enough to prove last year's team was better - statistically speaking. |
Then people can't conclusively say that last year's team was worse either.
<snip>
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Correct - the data doesn't prove anything either way, it's way too close to draw any conclusions. |
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cthroatgtr Star Player
Joined: 21 Aug 2005 Posts: 1375
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Only real mistake was handling Dwight. Schroeder was an upgrade. He has been the Lakers 3rd best player. Harrell I get, though in hindsight a flawed signing. Gasol was necessary and Drummond was to address not signing Dwight. You think last year's team would survive no AD and no LBJ? Seriously that was the real issue and only issue. Take out Shaq & Kobe for a long stretch the 3peat team would struggle too. It is how they are built. |
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Lakeshow23_ Starting Rotation
Joined: 02 May 2021 Posts: 660
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:00 am Post subject: |
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PG: Rondo/Caruso
SG: KCP/Bradley
SF: Danny Green/Kuzma
PF: Kuzma/Kieff
C: Dwight/Javale
That would have been the lineup for the month or so Bron and AD both missed. I'm not sure that lineup could win more than a game or two. |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:23 am Post subject: |
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cthroatgtr wrote: | Only real mistake was handling Dwight. Schroeder was an upgrade. He has been the Lakers 3rd best player. Harrell I get, though in hindsight a flawed signing. Gasol was necessary and Drummond was to address not signing Dwight. You think last year's team would survive no AD and no LBJ? Seriously that was the real issue and only issue. Take out Shaq & Kobe for a long stretch the 3peat team would struggle too. It is how they are built. |
Shaq and Kobe? Shaq surgery on company time, Kobe led team went 11-19 |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Lakeshow23_ wrote: | PG: Rondo/Caruso
SG: KCP/Bradley
SF: Danny Green/Kuzma
PF: Kuzma/Kieff
C: Dwight/Javale
That would have been the lineup for the month or so Bron and AD both missed. I'm not sure that lineup could win more than a game or two. |
Good lord. In 25 non LBJ/AD games we’d get to the top of the lottery with that squad. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 11:35 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Lakeshow23_ wrote: | PG: Rondo/Caruso
SG: KCP/Bradley
SF: Danny Green/Kuzma
PF: Kuzma/Kieff
C: Dwight/Javale
That would have been the lineup for the month or so Bron and AD both missed. I'm not sure that lineup could win more than a game or two. |
Good lord. In 25 non LBJ/AD games we’d get to the top of the lottery with that squad. |
Absolutely no chance of getting in the top 10 seeding.
Could end up with the #1 pick like you mentioned, playing in the West... |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Lakeshow23_ wrote: | PG: Bradley/Rondo
SG: KCP/Caruso
SF: Danny Green/Kuzma
PF: Kieff/Kuzma
C: Dwight/Javale
That would have been the lineup for the month or so Bron and AD both missed. I'm not sure that lineup could win more than a game or two. |
I switched around your roster a little to reflect how I think Vogel would have played it. That’s a strong defensive roster. How is this year’s roster that much stronger?
To be clear, I am not buying into the arguments made by some of the other posters. Both rosters were built to support Lebron and Davis, not as insurance against a worst case scenario. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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mad55557777 Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 22801
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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lakersfever714 wrote: | Lakers 2020 record: 52-19 (73%)
Lakers 2021 record before Lebron injury: 28-13 (68%)
Assuming if AD was the same this year as last year, we could maybe add three more percentage points to the winrate to make it 71%. Still less than last year. Hence, last year's team is better.
It gets even better because last year's regular season record was with "regular" Rondo so if we took a 73% win team and upgraded Rondo to playoff Rondo, we would have a team that was seemingly unbeatable, which was exactly what we were.
This year, we did not look great against top competition like the Clippers and the 76ers even when everyone was still healthy. Our glaring weakness at rim protection and rebounding was exposed in a lot of games.
I rest my case. |
A quite weak analysis, but whatever makes you feel better. |
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mad55557777 Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 22801
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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vasashi17+ wrote: | mad55557777 wrote: |
Letting Jules walk was Magic’s decision. Vogel is a great defensive mind and with lebron running offense, I’d actually prefer a defensive guru. Defense won us the championship last season. |
Not to mintz my words, but simply put every negative transaction has the “it was all Magic’s fault” narrative which is a convenient way to deflect any blame away from Rob. If rumors are to be believed, then Magic was an absentee exec who didn’t put in the work due to his other non-bball related interests and if that’s the case, Rob was the 9-5er that showed up everyday. Maybe it’s that guy that knows our cap sheet and creates options for what to do with each transaction. If Rob brought to Magic that rescinding Jules restricted status was the best option to clear cap, then yikes. Bad decision Magic, but you’re only as good as your options.
Fact remains that it was Rob who had the ins with Jules agent and the 500k tampering fine of George is the proof. If Rob couldn’t find a way to close some type of deal with Jules, then you get a dude that flips the script and decides not to stay...just ask Dwight. For whatever reason Jules 180’d on his decision to play with Bron, cause that whole entire 2017/18 season had reporters asking Jules how he felt on Bron’s impending free agency and Jules continuously said Bron would do wonders for his game if he had the opportunity to play with Bron. Still, if dude didn’t want to stay, how we couldn’t set up at least gaining some form of assets back for Jules is a waste and we’ve seen it time and time again with future 2nd rounders, Moe, Bonga, TB, Zu, Svi, etc. some of those transactions happened with Magic, but some were certainly without. Like the coaching search...
And I would agree with you that you can make Bron the de facto OC player/coach, with Vogel as HC, but maybe 20 something Bron rather than 36 y/o Bron. When you invest in a player at that stage in his career and with that many miles, you gotta protect that investment....even from his own ego. Bron is capable of running full time point gawd during the regular season, but is it smart to do when you anticipate going deep into the playoffs?
I do agree with you wholeheartedly that defense wins championships. But wouldn’t you agree that defense is all about putting in effort. If you want enough juice on that side of the ball, you can’t be overworking yourselves on offense. Had we been more efficient on offense, our defense could be even better than it is right now/last year. Again props to Rob for wanting to have a Lue/Thibs or Vogs coaching configuration, but once again, dude couldn’t close that deal. |
Magic was the president of the operation, so whatever decision was make during that time, it was his. By the way, I agree with him on letting Jules walk |
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mad55557777 Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 22801
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Lakeshow23_ wrote: | PG: Bradley/Rondo
SG: KCP/Caruso
SF: Danny Green/Kuzma
PF: Kieff/Kuzma
C: Dwight/Javale
That would have been the lineup for the month or so Bron and AD both missed. I'm not sure that lineup could win more than a game or two. |
I switched around your roster a little to reflect how I think Vogel would have played it. That’s a strong defensive roster. How is this year’s roster that much stronger?
To be clear, I am not buying into the arguments made by some of the other posters. Both rosters were built to support Lebron and Davis, not as insurance against a worst case scenario. |
Last years team just simply had no scoring if LBJ and AD went down. Especially with Kuzma being inconsistent. With all the flaws of DS and Trezz, they do provide points, and that wins you some games. Also, rondo in the regular season was so much worse, I don’t think you could count on him. |
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Outspoken Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 Posts: 8447
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Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Outspoken wrote: | AirTupac wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Has any/many teams went from being the Champions to missing the Playoffs the following season? |
Has any team not made playoffs and then won a ring the following season? Yes the Lakers. |
And then Rob broke up that team, which is associated with the point of this thread. |
Do you think last year team (with same injury to Bron and AD) have a better record than this year's team. Drummond/MacLemore pick up included? I don't, I think they'll be worse |
I think so. AD doesn't make us a playoff team, 1st and foremost. He's just a really good player that doesn't elevate us to being a playoff contending team; that's LeBron.
I don't know if we go after Drummond and Ben. Probably Drummond, but I don't know about Ben. Drummond would fit the mold of Mcgee and Dwight. We have more depth from the center standpoint. Drummond and Dwight tandem sounds good to me.
Now if we didn't have Bron and AD, I think the Lakers would be able to hold their own - Rondo, Danny Green, KCP, KUZ, Keiff, tandem bigs (Mcgee, Dwight), AC, THT, Quinn, and then everybody else. I think what people are not taking into account is that they had really good chemistry and knew their roles. It doesn't matter how one may feel about them individually, it's about them all collectively. So yes, I do think they would be better than this team, especially having more chemistry than last year. Also, we had more players with bball IQ last year than this year.
Last edited by Outspoken on Sun May 09, 2021 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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