Who should be our starting point guard next season?
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Who should be the Laker starting PG next season and why?
Dennis Schröder
55%
 55%  [ 33 ]
Alex Caruso
26%
 26%  [ 16 ]
Talen Horton Tucker
18%
 18%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 60

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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:37 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
We'll see what are guards look like in the playoffs alongside LBJ. Cause lets be honest. LBJ will be our point come playoff time. If DS hits catch and shoot 3s and defends multiple positions well I could see him coming back.

If not. I could see us pursuing trades.

Dennis was pretty good in the playoffs recently. Last 3 series, he's played in 18 games, averaged:

19ppg
5apg
34% from 3.

On OKC last playoffs, as a strictly bench player in 7 games:

17ppg
3.6apg

He shot a poor 29% from 3.

I just don't really see much of a trade angle for teams. If they have the cap space, not sure why they would facilitate a S&T and then be hard capped to help the Lakers out.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I have nothing against THT. I hope some of you are right that he is growing into a star or at least a dependable contributor. Just the same, I've seen enough hyped kids over the years to think that some of you are getting way ahead of yourselves. At this point, he is shooting .274 from three and has a pretty poor ATO ratio for a PG (he's really a combo guard, not a natural PG). He has good games, he has bad games, and he has games that are some of each.

I'm not sure that he'll ever develop into a starting quality player, or even whether he'll still be a Laker next year. The idea of him as a starting PG next year seems far fetched.

What were your thoughts on Julius Randle and Jordan Clarkson in 2015?


I'm not sure how this relates to whether THT can become a starting quality point guard on a championship contender next season, but what the heck. As best I can recall six years later, I thought that Randle might eventually become a good player, though he was rough at the time. He did become a good player, though it took a number of years. I didn't think much of Clarkson because his modestly good shooting skills were offset by his horrible defense and minimal playmaking skills. That never really changed. I thought he would develop a three point shot, but he never really did.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:37 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
We'll see what are guards look like in the playoffs alongside LBJ. Cause lets be honest. LBJ will be our point come playoff time. If DS hits catch and shoot 3s and defends multiple positions well I could see him coming back.

If not. I could see us pursuing trades.

Dennis was pretty good in the playoffs recently. Last 3 series, he's played in 18 games, averaged:

19ppg
5apg
34% from 3.

On OKC last playoffs, as a strictly bench player in 7 games:

17ppg
3.6apg

He shot a poor 29% from 3.

I just don't really see much of a trade angle for teams. If they have the cap space, not sure why they would facilitate a S&T and then be hard capped to help the Lakers out.


Same reason why Hornets sign and traded for Hayward, Hawks sign and traded for Gallo, and Pistons sign and traded for Jerami Grant. I mean those 3 were just last offseason. Alot of times teams swap picks and cash considerations in the process too.

There's nothing specific about DS that makes him less likely to be signed and traded than the many other players who have before him.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:45 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
We'll see what are guards look like in the playoffs alongside LBJ. Cause lets be honest. LBJ will be our point come playoff time. If DS hits catch and shoot 3s and defends multiple positions well I could see him coming back.

If not. I could see us pursuing trades.

Dennis was pretty good in the playoffs recently. Last 3 series, he's played in 18 games, averaged:

19ppg
5apg
34% from 3.

On OKC last playoffs, as a strictly bench player in 7 games:

17ppg
3.6apg

He shot a poor 29% from 3.

I just don't really see much of a trade angle for teams. If they have the cap space, not sure why they would facilitate a S&T and then be hard capped to help the Lakers out.


Same reason why Hornets sign and traded for Hayward, Hawks sign and traded for Gallo, and Pistons sign and traded for Jerami Grant. I mean those 3 were just last offseason. Alot of times teams swap picks and cash considerations in the process too.

There's nothing specific about DS that makes him less likely to be signed and traded than the many other players who have before him.


Sign-and-trade deals were pretty rare before last year. There were only 4 between 2015 and 2018.

The decrease in salary cap, and reduction in cap space, resulted in more teams doing sign and trade deals.

Typically, the teams trading the player get a second-round pick or trade exception back. You rarely big result for a player you send out in a sign and trade. In fact, when Boston sent Hayward to Charlotte in a sign and trade, they actually gave Charlotte a second round pick to get an exception. Boston knew that Charlotte has the cap space to sign Hayward as a free agent, so they basically bought a trade exception from them for a second round pick.

Exceptions tend not to be that valuable. A lot expire unused.

That's the issue. People are hoping we can send out DS in a sign-and-trade for a good player who will start for us -- but that type of sign-and-trade virtually never happens.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:59 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
kikanga wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
We'll see what are guards look like in the playoffs alongside LBJ. Cause lets be honest. LBJ will be our point come playoff time. If DS hits catch and shoot 3s and defends multiple positions well I could see him coming back.

If not. I could see us pursuing trades.

Dennis was pretty good in the playoffs recently. Last 3 series, he's played in 18 games, averaged:

19ppg
5apg
34% from 3.

On OKC last playoffs, as a strictly bench player in 7 games:

17ppg
3.6apg

He shot a poor 29% from 3.

I just don't really see much of a trade angle for teams. If they have the cap space, not sure why they would facilitate a S&T and then be hard capped to help the Lakers out.


Same reason why Hornets sign and traded for Hayward, Hawks sign and traded for Gallo, and Pistons sign and traded for Jerami Grant. I mean those 3 were just last offseason. Alot of times teams swap picks and cash considerations in the process too.

There's nothing specific about DS that makes him less likely to be signed and traded than the many other players who have before him.


Sign-and-trade deals were pretty rare before last year. There were only 4 between 2015 and 2018.

The decrease in salary cap, and reduction in cap space, resulted in more teams doing sign and trade deals.

Typically, the teams trading the player get a second-round pick or trade exception back. You rarely big result for a player you send out in a sign and trade. In fact, when Boston sent Hayward to Charlotte in a sign and trade, they actually gave Charlotte a second round pick to get an exception. Boston knew that Charlotte has the cap space to sign Hayward as a free agent, so they basically bought a trade exception from them for a second round pick.

Exceptions tend not to be that valuable. A lot expire unused.

That's the issue. People are hoping we can send out DS in a sign-and-trade for a good player who will start for us -- but that type of sign-and-trade virtually never happens.


It's funny you left out 2019. That year had alot of sign and trades.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/09/the-re-emergence-of-nba-sign-and-trades.html

Look I'm not saying we trade DS straight up for a starter. I'm just saying he can be signed and traded. And we should sign people on contracts where they are assets. Don't overpay anybody, we can't afford to with LBJ and AD soaking up as much cap as they do.

You rack up players on good contracts you have more options to improve the team. Even if it's a 3 or 4 team trade sometime next season.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:16 pm    Post subject:

Of course if we win a chip this year and DS is our 3rd best player, we should pay him what he wants. Cause he'll be worth it.

I just don't think our fate is tied to DS no matter what and we have no alternatives.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:22 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Of course if we win a chip this year and DS is our 3rd best player, we should pay him what he wants. Cause he'll be worth it.

I just don't think our fate is tied to DS no matter what and we have no alternatives.


Alternatives have shrunk though. It will likely fall to a vet min signing, trading existing players, or using the whole mini MLE or part of it. A trade exception doesn’t net us a player.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject:

I voted THT, but my real answer is Lonzo Ball.

On Talen, he is bound to improve and his assist-to-turnover ratio is better than given credit for on this site. He actually has a slightly better career ratio than Kobe.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 5:03 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
It's funny you left out 2019. That year had alot of sign and trades.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/09/the-re-emergence-of-nba-sign-and-trades.html


I think he meant last season, which would be the summer of 2019. Here's a list of all the trades from the current season. There are a number of sign-and-trades, the most notable of which were Christian Wood, Jerami Grant, Gordon Hayward, and Austin Rivers. There are also some oddball signings by the Pelicans for the Steven Adams trade. I think a couple of those were sign, trade, and waive deals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2020%E2%80%9321_NBA_season_transactions#Trades

Now here is the relevant question: When you look at the whole deal, including additional assets tossed into the mix, did anyone get anything significant back for a sign-and-trade, other than maybe a trade exception? I'd say no.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 8:51 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:
It's funny you left out 2019. That year had alot of sign and trades.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/09/the-re-emergence-of-nba-sign-and-trades.html


I think he meant last season, which would be the summer of 2019. Here's a list of all the trades from the current season. There are a number of sign-and-trades, the most notable of which were Christian Wood, Jerami Grant, Gordon Hayward, and Austin Rivers. There are also some oddball signings by the Pelicans for the Steven Adams trade. I think a couple of those were sign, trade, and waive deals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2020%E2%80%9321_NBA_season_transactions#Trades

Now here is the relevant question: When you look at the whole deal, including additional assets tossed into the mix, did anyone get anything significant back for a sign-and-trade, other than maybe a trade exception? I'd say no.


Terry Rozier and Kemba were a sign and trade (talked about in the link I posted).

It's just strange to argue we are stuck paying X person Y amount of money no matter what. Every offseason, teams pull off deals that surprise the majority of NBA fans. There are a ton of mechanisms built into the system to give teams flexibility and not be beholden to any 1 player completely.

I'm not saying "move on from Schro no matter what". That's stupid. But I think it's also stupid to assume keeping him and paying him whatever he wants is the only, best way forward even if we aren't winning chips.

We've seen better and worse players than Schroder get signed and traded. By teams with varying cap situations. It could even be a 3 or 4 team deal. It could involve other players on our roster too.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:21 pm    Post subject:

I don't have a problem with a sign and trade for Schroder if the Lakers get assets that allow them to get a replacement. I hate the idea of losing him for nothing though.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:29 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Till we have LBJ and prime AD, we don’t need a starting level creating PG. we need a defensive player, a three point shooter, cutter and someone that brings key intangibles.

The second unit PG is the most valuable role. One that we have not filled with Caruso or THT.

For starter, I am fine with THT or Caruso next year. But we need a bench PG leader badly. I really thought Dennis would be that guy. I still hope he becomes that guy in the play in and playoffs and then we can re-sign him confidently knowing he has found his role.


Conceptually I understand what you're saying. But it's also fair to assume that as LBJ ages, that there may be more games where he doesn't play. And AD is somewhat injury prone, so we may have situations where there are no AD/LBJ. I don't think we can run with that assumption TBH. I 100% get why Rob went for Dennis hoping he would be that starter level PG. He acquitted himself well in AD/LBJ's absence, helping this team win way more games than what many people here thought they would win.

The role of a bench player, can be the same. For example, last year, Rondo won 2 games as the team leader when Bron and AD sat out IIRC. That is a much older lesser player. Dennis easily could have been that guy for us when AD-Bron were out this year, coming off the bench.

What pains is me that I see Caruso now start, and he is doing ok around AD. He is not great, but he is good enough to at least manage those minutes. The bleeding happens when Bron sits. That is when we need Dennis to get all in. I really hope this covid time out, gives the coaching staff a look at how great Dennis could be. It still irks me we have the 2 best bench players from last season in the league, and we did not exploit them off the bench.

We need to run Trez-AD-Kuz-Wesley (or THT or McLemore)-Dennis lineups for 4-5 minutes a half when Bron sits, in the play in or playoffs. Then sub in Marc Gasol, for Trez, and Bron for AD to let AD rest. We can manage the game so much more to our advantage if Dennis comes off the bench.

It is crazy how much talent is on this team, and the injuries and starting role has impacted the way games could be managed. There is still time to save the season, IMO. I do not expect a run, but I believe in Dennis and this group still, to be able to get it done if they manage the game better than they have.


I share the same sentiment about playing Trez and Schroder off the bench. That is like the most ideal set up to utilize and extract the skill set of each player on our team . We never really develop a potent bench despite having a lot of depth. Hopefully we can win it again and no role player can ever demand a starting role whatever his contract situation is.
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:22 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
kikanga wrote:
It's funny you left out 2019. That year had alot of sign and trades.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/09/the-re-emergence-of-nba-sign-and-trades.html


I think he meant last season, which would be the summer of 2019. Here's a list of all the trades from the current season. There are a number of sign-and-trades, the most notable of which were Christian Wood, Jerami Grant, Gordon Hayward, and Austin Rivers. There are also some oddball signings by the Pelicans for the Steven Adams trade. I think a couple of those were sign, trade, and waive deals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2020%E2%80%9321_NBA_season_transactions#Trades

Now here is the relevant question: When you look at the whole deal, including additional assets tossed into the mix, did anyone get anything significant back for a sign-and-trade, other than maybe a trade exception? I'd say no.


Terry Rozier and Kemba were a sign and trade (talked about in the link I posted).

It's just strange to argue we are stuck paying X person Y amount of money no matter what. Every offseason, teams pull off deals that surprise the majority of NBA fans. There are a ton of mechanisms built into the system to give teams flexibility and not be beholden to any 1 player completely.

I'm not saying "move on from Schro no matter what". That's stupid. But I think it's also stupid to assume keeping him and paying him whatever he wants is the only, best way forward even if we aren't winning chips.

We've seen better and worse players than Schroder get signed and traded. By teams with varying cap situations. It could even be a 3 or 4 team deal. It could involve other players on our roster too.


The problem is depending on another team to give us assets (ie a good player who can replace Dennis) in return. If that’s the case why do they need a S&T for Dennis if they have an equally (or better) player on their team?
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:39 am    Post subject:

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I share the same sentiment about playing Trez and Schroder off the bench. That is like the most ideal set up to utilize and extract the skill set of each player on our team . We never really develop a potent bench despite having a lot of depth. Hopefully we can win it again and no role player can ever demand a starting role whatever his contract situation is.


I think we focus on this way too much. Dennis has been our best starting PG by a long margin this year. To me it's not even in dispute. The issue is that Vogel has lacked creativity with staggering his lineups and we've had so many injuries to LBJ/AD that we haven't been able to integrate all our key parts. He was right to ask for a starting position b/c he has been our best option at the starting point guard spot.
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 7:23 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
I share the same sentiment about playing Trez and Schroder off the bench. That is like the most ideal set up to utilize and extract the skill set of each player on our team . We never really develop a potent bench despite having a lot of depth. Hopefully we can win it again and no role player can ever demand a starting role whatever his contract situation is.


I think we focus on this way too much. Dennis has been our best starting PG by a long margin this year. To me it's not even in dispute. The issue is that Vogel has lacked creativity with staggering his lineups and we've had so many injuries to LBJ/AD that we haven't been able to integrate all our key parts. He was right to ask for a starting position b/c he has been our best option at the starting point guard spot.


It doesn't take a lot of creativity, just availability. Put DS in when AD is in. Put Caruso in when AD is out.
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I think he meant last season, which would be the summer of 2019. Here's a list of all the trades from the current season. There are a number of sign-and-trades, the most notable of which were Christian Wood, Jerami Grant, Gordon Hayward, and Austin Rivers. There are also some oddball signings by the Pelicans for the Steven Adams trade. I think a couple of those were sign, trade, and waive deals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2020%E2%80%9321_NBA_season_transactions#Trades

Now here is the relevant question: When you look at the whole deal, including additional assets tossed into the mix, did anyone get anything significant back for a sign-and-trade, other than maybe a trade exception? I'd say no.


Terry Rozier and Kemba were a sign and trade (talked about in the link I posted).

It's just strange to argue we are stuck paying X person Y amount of money no matter what. Every offseason, teams pull off deals that surprise the majority of NBA fans. There are a ton of mechanisms built into the system to give teams flexibility and not be beholden to any 1 player completely.

I'm not saying "move on from Schro no matter what". That's stupid. But I think it's also stupid to assume keeping him and paying him whatever he wants is the only, best way forward even if we aren't winning chips.

We've seen better and worse players than Schroder get signed and traded. By teams with varying cap situations. It could even be a 3 or 4 team deal. It could involve other players on our roster too.


That's true to some extent, but you're dancing around the point. It has been rare for a sign-and-trade deal to generate much return for the trading team, other than a trade exception. The Kemba Walker-Terry Rozier deal was forced by the fact that the Celtics did not have the cap space to sign Walker. Ditto for the Durant-Russell trade. If that's what happens with Schroder, we have some leverage. For example, if he wants to sign with Milwaukee, they would need to send us something back to make the salaries match. If we didn't agree to it, it would be no deal. But if Schroder just straight up signs with someone, we have no leverage at all.

This is why sign-and-trades rarely return much in the way of assets other than a trade exception. To use my example, let's suppose that Milwaukee wanted to sign Schroder for some reason. Would they still want to sign him if they had to send us valuable assets to match the salaries? We wouldn't agree to take garbage, and we don't have any use for junk expiring contracts. We would expect a useful player or two plus draft picks. At that point, Milwaukee would probably take a pass on Schroder.

This changes the economics of the deal. In the case of the Durant deal, the Nets were willing to move on from Russell, which looks like a good decision at this point. They would have needed to renounce him to sign Durant, because they lacked cap space otherwise. The Warriors were willing to take a flier on Russell, knowing that he could be a trade piece. That was a debatable decision. They might have been better off taking a pass. Regardless, that's how it went down.

2019-2020 trade list

So is there a scenario in which we could get a return for Schroder if he leaves? Sure. What we're saying is that this is the exception, not the rule. In most cases, we will lack leverage.
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 8:42 am    Post subject:

I've resigned myself to being stuck with Schroder. I'm praying Rob can do something but I can't think objectively of someone who would take him off our hands in a trade without us doing something stupid.

At this point I'm hoping THT or our draft pick will relegate him to 6th man because if LBJ declines and Schroder is our starter then the Pelicans will be feasting in a few years.
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 8:47 am    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
I've resigned myself to being stuck with Schroder. I'm praying Rob can do something but I can't think objectively of someone who would take him off our hands in a trade without us doing something stupid.

At this point I'm hoping THT or our draft pick will relegate him to 6th man because if LBJ declines and Schroder is our starter then the Pelicans will be feasting in a few years.

We clearly disagree on this, but I don't get the doom and gloom. He was one of the main reasons we went 11-15 in the 26 games without LBJ/AD. We would have been much worse without him.

I would argue Dennis allows THT to progress more appropriately, rather than being thrust into a starting PG role that I do not think he's ready for just yet. I would actually argue Dennis will help dilute the Lakers picks that we owe to the Pels, not the other way around. Because we will likely lose Trezz/Drummond, maybe Kieff and Gasol, that mini MLE will likely be spent there. So that means you have a vet's min. to replace Dennis? Or you have to trade KCP or Kuz, etc.? I don't see it.
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:09 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
I've resigned myself to being stuck with Schroder. I'm praying Rob can do something but I can't think objectively of someone who would take him off our hands in a trade without us doing something stupid.

At this point I'm hoping THT or our draft pick will relegate him to 6th man because if LBJ declines and Schroder is our starter then the Pelicans will be feasting in a few years.

We clearly disagree on this, but I don't get the doom and gloom. He was one of the main reasons we went 11-15 in the 26 games without LBJ/AD. We would have been much worse without him.

I would argue Dennis allows THT to progress more appropriately, rather than being thrust into a starting PG role that I do not think he's ready for just yet. I would actually argue Dennis will help dilute the Lakers picks that we owe to the Pels, not the other way around. Because we will likely lose Trezz/Drummond, maybe Kieff and Gasol, that mini MLE will likely be spent there. So that means you have a vet's min. to replace Dennis? Or you have to trade KCP or Kuz, etc.? I don't see it.


You keep pointing out how we should wait and see how Dennis will look with LBJ and AD... but this is like waiting and seeing how Fisher will look with Shaq and Kobe. Of course the team will look good because as history shows... anyone will look good with a healthy LBJ and AD.

Is Schroder better than THT at this point. Of course he is... but I'm not worried about Schroder with an MVP level LBJ... I'm worried how he will look afterwards with only AD.

Since it looks like we will be stuck with him... I'm hoping we put the development of THT on the fast track. Of course Schroder should start right now, I'm just saying that we need to accelerate the process in case LBJ declines next season.

When Kobe was 20, he had 3.8 assists for every 3.1 turnovers... I'm remember how raw he was because I was used to Magic and Showtime and I was frustrated at all the mistakes. I always wanted Shaq to have the ball because it felt like an automatic bucket and Kobe was aggressive like THT.
It would be like if THT kept chucking when LBJ and AD were on the floor.
I thought Kobe was super talented, but I just thought Shaq was the superior statistical option.

So since we are in this predicament... we might as well do the same thing... just let THT loose during the regular season and see where he ends up. Maybe he reaches all star level... maybe he reaches top starter level... maybe he reaches 6th man of the year level... maybe he becomes an overrated flash in the pan. I realize this is a process but that's how we did it with Kobe... obviously Kobe had the green light from West but why not do it with THT next year. There's no need to wait two years... we already gave up Lowry for this kid... let's see what he has.
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
That's true to some extent, but you're dancing around the point. It has been rare for a sign-and-trade deal to generate much return for the trading team, other than a trade exception. The Kemba Walker-Terry Rozier deal was forced by the fact that the Celtics did not have the cap space to sign Walker. Ditto for the Durant-Russell trade. If that's what happens with Schroder, we have some leverage. For example, if he wants to sign with Milwaukee, they would need to send us something back to make the salaries match. If we didn't agree to it, it would be no deal. But if Schroder just straight up signs with someone, we have no leverage at all.

This is why sign-and-trades rarely return much in the way of assets other than a trade exception. To use my example, let's suppose that Milwaukee wanted to sign Schroder for some reason. Would they still want to sign him if they had to send us valuable assets to match the salaries? We wouldn't agree to take garbage, and we don't have any use for junk expiring contracts. We would expect a useful player or two plus draft picks. At that point, Milwaukee would probably take a pass on Schroder.

This changes the economics of the deal. In the case of the Durant deal, the Nets were willing to move on from Russell, which looks like a good decision at this point. They would have needed to renounce him to sign Durant, because they lacked cap space otherwise. The Warriors were willing to take a flier on Russell, knowing that he could be a trade piece. That was a debatable decision. They might have been better off taking a pass. Regardless, that's how it went down.

2019-2020 trade list

So is there a scenario in which we could get a return for Schroder if he leaves? Sure. What we're saying is that this is the exception, not the rule. In most cases, we will lack leverage.


I don't think I'm dancing around the point at all. I think I've finally dragged everyone to the realization that there are realistic alternatives.

I'm not saying you specifically, because I've discussed this DS thing with multiple posters here.

But the goal line has moved a ton.

It started off as, "we're over the cap, we must pay DS what he wants". Then I brought up S&Ts as an option.

Then it was "sign and trades rarely happen". Then I brought up how they have been used multiple times recently for players better and worse than DS.

Then it was "okay even if we do a sign and trade, we won't get a player back". Then I talked about S&T that brought players back in return.

Then it was "well no significant players came back". Then I brought up when a significant player came back.

Now you're pretty much saying, "it has to benefit both teams" which I've never disagreed with. In fact the article I posted, which I've brought up probably 5 times by now, says that exact same thing.

People have to make a ton of assumptions to make an argument that a S&T isn't possible and our only, best way forward is paying DS whatever he wants (no matter how he plays for us this playoffs).

I never argued a S&T would be easy. Just that it's a real possibility. Whether
it's with MIL, or one of the other 28 teams in the league.
I'm not a future-seer. And neither are the people who said a DS S&T can't/won't happen.

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Last edited by kikanga on Thu May 13, 2021 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 10:15 am    Post subject:

For example, what if CP3 tells PHX he wants to come here and he's willing to take a multiyear contract similar in yearly pay to what DS wants. Would PHX be open to a S&T as opposed to losing CP3 for nothing? Maybe. Heck maybe it's a 4 team deal (not unheard of, look at Butler to MIA) and PHX gets a different player than DS. And DS goes somewhere else.

There are alot of possible S&T scenarios with the 28 other teams in the league. And it's nearly impossible to try and find a way to invalidate each and every potential move.

That's why I stressed "it's possible". And I've shot down the "it's not possible" arguments left and right. It's bigger than DS. It's really an argument of "are teams beholden to good but not all star players when they are over the salary cap?" And the answer is, no.
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 10:43 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Since it looks like we will be stuck with him... I'm hoping we put the development of THT on the fast track. Of course Schroder should start right now, I'm just saying that we need to accelerate the process in case LBJ declines next season.

When Kobe was 20, he had 3.8 assists for every 3.1 turnovers... I'm remember how raw he was because I was used to Magic and Showtime and I was frustrated at all the mistakes. I always wanted Shaq to have the ball because it felt like an automatic bucket and Kobe was aggressive like THT.
It would be like if THT kept chucking when LBJ and AD were on the floor.
I thought Kobe was super talented, but I just thought Shaq was the superior statistical option.

So since we are in this predicament... we might as well do the same thing... just let THT loose during the regular season and see where he ends up. Maybe he reaches all star level... maybe he reaches top starter level... maybe he reaches 6th man of the year level... maybe he becomes an overrated flash in the pan. I realize this is a process but that's how we did it with Kobe... obviously Kobe had the green light from West but why not do it with THT next year. There's no need to wait two years... we already gave up Lowry for this kid... let's see what he has.


Ironically, losing Dennis for nothing, and starting THT at point guard may be a recipe for giving the Pels a better pick. THT has talent, but he is still very raw. As many have said, even the guys on LFR podcast, THT isn't really a point and has many defensive issues right now. But that's ok. He's 20. I don't think we are in a place where we have no other option but to throw him into the fire.

I see posts comparing THT to Kobe, Harden, etc. I think that's way too premature. He needs time.
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 10:46 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I never argued a S&T would be easy. Just that it's a real possibility. Whether
it's with MIL, or one of the other 28 teams in the league.
I'm not a future-seer. And neither are the people who said a DS S&T can't/won't happen.


I'm just pointing out that when you are trying to do a S&T, you are at the mercy of another team.

If you're just seeking a trade exception, even those require the team to usually send out some picks.

If you're a team with cap space to sign Dennis outright, why would they want to help the Lakers out with a trade exception, or trading a good player to them? Why not just...use your cap space?

I think a S&T is a more difficult way to do this as opposed to paying what the Lakers/Dennis feel is appropriate. Clearly Rob/Lakers like this guy. They traded Green/1st for him. Then they gave him a max extension. So I would err on the side that Rob is probably going to try to keep him.
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 11:00 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
I never argued a S&T would be easy. Just that it's a real possibility. Whether
it's with MIL, or one of the other 28 teams in the league.
I'm not a future-seer. And neither are the people who said a DS S&T can't/won't happen.


I'm just pointing out that when you are trying to do a S&T, you are at the mercy of another team.

If you're just seeking a trade exception, even those require the team to usually send out some picks.

If you're a team with cap space to sign Dennis outright, why would they want to help the Lakers out with a trade exception, or trading a good player to them? Why not just...use your cap space?


I think a S&T is a more difficult way to do this as opposed to paying what the Lakers/Dennis feel is appropriate. Clearly Rob/Lakers like this guy. They traded Green/1st for him. Then they gave him a max extension. So I would err on the side that Rob is probably going to try to keep him.


1) Maybe you don't have the cap space to sign DS outright.

2) If you are getting cap space by losing a player that has value. You might want to get something for their departure via trade.

In terms of Rob. He dropped 4 out of the 10 players who played over 100 Minutes for us in a playoff championship run. The guy has no loyalty.

He'll do whatever he thinks gives us the best chance to win. Obviously when he signed DS, he thought he'd take the extension he offered him. Now that DS wants more, it would make sense that Rob needs DS to prove he's worth that $ this playoffs.
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 11:09 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
That's true to some extent, but you're dancing around the point. It has been rare for a sign-and-trade deal to generate much return for the trading team, other than a trade exception. The Kemba Walker-Terry Rozier deal was forced by the fact that the Celtics did not have the cap space to sign Walker. Ditto for the Durant-Russell trade. If that's what happens with Schroder, we have some leverage. For example, if he wants to sign with Milwaukee, they would need to send us something back to make the salaries match. If we didn't agree to it, it would be no deal. But if Schroder just straight up signs with someone, we have no leverage at all.

This is why sign-and-trades rarely return much in the way of assets other than a trade exception. To use my example, let's suppose that Milwaukee wanted to sign Schroder for some reason. Would they still want to sign him if they had to send us valuable assets to match the salaries? We wouldn't agree to take garbage, and we don't have any use for junk expiring contracts. We would expect a useful player or two plus draft picks. At that point, Milwaukee would probably take a pass on Schroder.

This changes the economics of the deal. In the case of the Durant deal, the Nets were willing to move on from Russell, which looks like a good decision at this point. They would have needed to renounce him to sign Durant, because they lacked cap space otherwise. The Warriors were willing to take a flier on Russell, knowing that he could be a trade piece. That was a debatable decision. They might have been better off taking a pass. Regardless, that's how it went down.

2019-2020 trade list

So is there a scenario in which we could get a return for Schroder if he leaves? Sure. What we're saying is that this is the exception, not the rule. In most cases, we will lack leverage.


I don't think I'm dancing around the point at all. I think I've finally dragged everyone to the realization that there are realistic alternatives.

I'm not saying you specifically, because I've discussed this DS thing with multiple posters here.

But the goal line has moved a ton.

It started off as, "we're over the cap, we must pay DS what he wants". Then I brought up S&Ts as an option.

Then it was "sign and trades rarely happen". Then I brought up how they have been used multiple times recently for players better and worse than DS.

Then it was "okay even if we do a sign and trade, we won't get a player back". Then I talked about S&T that brought players back in return.

Then it was "well no significant players came back". Then I brought up when a significant player came back.

Now you're pretty much saying, "it has to benefit both teams" which I've never disagreed with. In fact the article I posted, which I've brought up probably 5 times by now, says that exact same thing.

People have to make a ton of assumptions to make an argument that a S&T isn't possible and our only, best way forward is paying DS whatever he wants (no matter how he plays for us this playoffs).

I never argued a S&T would be easy. Just that it's a real possibility. Whether
it's with MIL, or one of the other 28 teams in the league.
I'm not a future-seer. And neither are the people who said a DS S&T can't/won't happen.



Let's cut to the bottom line:


Of course, we don’t have to pay DS whatever he wants. We can say no, and then see what the consequences are.

A sign-and-trade is possible. My point was that, with rare exception, teams usually don’t get much back from a sign-and-trade than a trade exception.

Is it theoretically possible that we could ship out DS for something good and be one of those rare exception?

Sure. It's theoretically possible.

If all you're saying is, "Well, anything's possible," cool. Just don't expect anyone to get excited about "Well, anything's possible" ideas.
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