Salary Cap Experts: How do we get out from being hard capped?

 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:04 am    Post subject: Salary Cap Experts: How do we get out from being hard capped?

As I understand it, the Lakers are hard capped (Cannot spend over a certain amount no matter what the reason). What do the Lakers need to do to get out from being hard capped? Is there a certain amount of salary that needs to be cut? Do we not use the MLE and we are good? Or is it something else?

Thanks in advance.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Salary Cap Experts: How do we get out from being hard capped?

Laker7 wrote:
As I understand it, the Lakers are hard capped (Cannot spend over a certain amount no matter what the reason). What do the Lakers need to do to get out from being hard capped? Is there a certain amount of salary that needs to be cut? Do we not use the MLE and we are good? Or is it something else?

Thanks in advance.
L7


Technically, they become "un-hard capped" this offseason unless they spend the non-tax payer MLE or S&T for a player.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:27 am    Post subject:

No longer hard capped, but will be if they sign and trade or use the non tax MLE.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:52 am    Post subject:

To add, the cap projections are ~143m is the apron (aka hard cap)

MiniMLE aka tax payer mid level exception ~6m (doesn’t trigger the hard cap)
MLE aka non-tax payer mid level exception ~9.5m (does trigger hard cap restrictions)

Team salary (Bron, AD, Kcp, Kuz, Marc, THT RFA cap hold, 1st round pick cap hold, Deng dead cap hit) is ~ 115m

If you include roughly 10m per for AC and THT as their potential FA market price points, plus if we make McKinnie’s deal fully guaranteed and let’s say Trez opts in then our team salary roughly becomes ~ 147m, which means we will only be allowed to use the miniMLE since we already breached the apron. That also doesn’t include a full roster of a minimum of 12, so it really looks like the miniMLE will be the way to go this summer unless we lose AC, THT, Trez and any of our other key free agents and replace them with vet mins.

So let’s just say, we got 6m in potential cap to mess with. I don’t anticipate us being hard capped this offseason since we would really be boxed in and restricted if we elect to go that route. That means any potential 3rd star target (like Lowry or an opted out Cp3) that come to us via S&t are also likely improbable. =(
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:06 pm    Post subject:

Thanks people! Appreciate the info!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:28 pm    Post subject:

If Lakers receive a S&T player we get hard capped again.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:36 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
If Lakers receive a S&T player we get hard capped again.


Yep... S&t of Schro to another team leaves us soft, but no matter how hard we are for a S&t’d Lowry/Cp3 back to us, those attempts would be hard to accomplish, seeing how restrictive the triggered apron would leave us.

#LimpingIntoFreeAgency
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:59 pm    Post subject:

vasashi17+ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
If Lakers receive a S&T player we get hard capped again.


Yep... S&t of Schro to another team leaves us soft, but no matter how hard we are for a S&t’d Lowry/Cp3 back to us, those attempts would be hard to accomplish, seeing how restrictive the triggered apron would leave us.

#LimpingIntoFreeAgency


IMO I think Rob is going to make every effort to bring Dennis back because we are so asset depleted. Using our mini MLE to fill his spot is just going to leave us even more empty handed.

I really have a weird feeling we will target DRoz but doubt a mini MLE is enough. Who knows.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:04 pm    Post subject:

Quick question... If Trezz opts out do we get that MLE aka non-tax payer mid level exception ~9.5m back?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:20 pm    Post subject:

@Yinoma: you’ve been saying it for a minute and I absolutely agree with you. We gave up so much for cap-ital in 2018 abs unfortunately we kicked the tires till it turned into Green...then it turned into Schro and if he departs, our hoarding of cap space was all for naught. You absolutely have to bring Schro back as cap ballast so that we can potentially covert it into a 3rd max guy (which was plan A for us way back in 2018). Letting Schro walk isn’t even an option. Even if the plan is to get rid of him, you sign that guy up and flip him down the line, otherwise the hoarding of cap since Rob 1st got here will have gone unrealized.

@miggz: every offseason you get the MLE if you’re cap strapped. Last year the Apron was about 139m. This year it’s about 143m. As long as you don’t breach that number with the use of the 9.5m the full MLE alots us, Trez’s deal among with a new MLE deal con coexist on our cap sheet.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:22 pm    Post subject:

I think the Lakers by virtue of bird rights obviously can offer Dennis the most money. Maybe a mutual deal where Dennis gets more $ than he would from pure cap space teams and the Lakers work with him to get traded when he is eligible. I could totally see that.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:49 pm    Post subject:

vasashi17+ wrote:
To add, the cap projections are ~143m is the apron (aka hard cap)

MiniMLE aka tax payer mid level exception ~6m (doesn’t trigger the hard cap)
MLE aka non-tax payer mid level exception ~9.5m (does trigger hard cap restrictions)

Team salary (Bron, AD, Kcp, Kuz, Marc, THT RFA cap hold, 1st round pick cap hold, Deng dead cap hit) is ~ 115m

If you include roughly 10m per for AC and THT as their potential FA market price points, plus if we make McKinnie’s deal fully guaranteed and let’s say Trez opts in then our team salary roughly becomes ~ 147m, which means we will only be allowed to use the miniMLE since we already breached the apron. That also doesn’t include a full roster of a minimum of 12, so it really looks like the miniMLE will be the way to go this summer unless we lose AC, THT, Trez and any of our other key free agents and replace them with vet mins.

So let’s just say, we got 6m in potential cap to mess with. I don’t anticipate us being hard capped this offseason since we would really be boxed in and restricted if we elect to go that route. That means any potential 3rd star target (like Lowry or an opted out Cp3) that come to us via S&t are also likely improbable. =(


Thanks! Very helpful. Hopefully the usual suspects can get it through their thick skulls.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:24 pm    Post subject:

vasashi17+ wrote:
@Yinoma: you’ve been saying it for a minute and I absolutely agree with you. We gave up so much for cap-ital in 2018 abs unfortunately we kicked the tires till it turned into Green...then it turned into Schro and if he departs, our hoarding of cap space was all for naught. You absolutely have to bring Schro back as cap ballast so that we can potentially covert it into a 3rd max guy (which was plan A for us way back in 2018). Letting Schro walk isn’t even an option. Even if the plan is to get rid of him, you sign that guy up and flip him down the line, otherwise the hoarding of cap since Rob 1st got here will have gone unrealized.

@miggz: every offseason you get the MLE if you’re cap strapped. Last year the Apron was about 139m. This year it’s about 143m. As long as you don’t breach that number with the use of the 9.5m the full MLE alots us, Trez’s deal among with a new MLE deal con coexist on our cap sheet.


Am I understanding you correctly that the Lakers really HAVE to extend DS and that it might be a good thing if that extension was huge yearly like 25-30 per over 2 years or 3 years with a team option? This would at least give some cap/salary to work with later for like an overpaid guy like Lowry or even with another K to get to something like CP3 ungodly salary?

And, the Trez MLE thing... assuming he opts in, it IS possible in some way to also get another full MLE player? I thought it was every other year if you used it...

TIA for the clarification
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:34 pm    Post subject:

^ Biannual exception is available every other year. Lakers used it on Wes last year so they don’t have it this year.

Lakers have the taxpayer miniMLE ~6M to play with whether or not Trezz opts in.

It’s debateable what number Shroeder should be brought back at. But it makes no sense to let him walk and any S&T is unlikely, given what vasashi has already explained.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:44 pm    Post subject:

LakersMD wrote:
^ Biannual exception is available every other year. Lakers used it on Wes last year so they don’t have it this year.

Lakers have the taxpayer miniMLE ~6M to play with whether or not Trezz opts in.

It’s debateable what number Shroeder should be brought back at. But it makes no sense to let him walk and any S&T is unlikely, given what vasashi has already explained.

He also agreed bring back DS is a must, read his reasoning above.
This is how salary cap works. There would be no Pau without Kramer brown
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:54 pm    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
LakersMD wrote:
^ Biannual exception is available every other year. Lakers used it on Wes last year so they don’t have it this year.

Lakers have the taxpayer miniMLE ~6M to play with whether or not Trezz opts in.

It’s debateable what number Shroeder should be brought back at. But it makes no sense to let him walk and any S&T is unlikely, given what vasashi has already explained.

He also agreed bring back DS is a must, read his reasoning above.
This is how salary cap works. There would be no Pau without Kramer brown


Yes I agree. Shroeder needs to be brought back. The debate will be over what the market will bear and whether that number is reasonable.

21M average per year puts him in the Brogdan, FVV tier. Rozier makes about 19M.

17.5-18M tier is dudes like Dragic (one year balloon deal), Bledsoe, Derrick White, Ricky Rubio.

I think most would agree that Brogdan and FVV are better players. Rozier probably too. The rest of the guys are roughly equal (some may say Rubio’s IQ and White’s shooting would be better fits, but overall talent level is approximate). So my guess is that he’ll come back around that 21M mark, which is a slight overpay but nothing to lose sleep over since we’ll still have the ~6M mini MLE regardless and his contract will be salary ballast to use in a future trade.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:01 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the Lakers by virtue of bird rights obviously can offer Dennis the most money. Maybe a mutual deal where Dennis gets more $ than he would from pure cap space teams and the Lakers work with him to get traded when he is eligible. I could totally see that.


Any teams you see would want to pay him for a sign and trade?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:40 pm    Post subject:

@LakerJocker: yep, we need Schro’s balloon contract to bring in the type of salary (ie 3rd max) that can pair nicely with our current star duo. Also what LakersMD said in regards to having the exceptions available. Only thing limiting our use of the 9.5m exception is if we choose to be hard capped or not. For reference, a team salary with just Bron, AD, Cp3 (opted in, traded for with every other guaranteed salary we have on the books and then possibly extended once a Laker) and Deng’s dead hit is 126m. That would put us at just 17m away from hitting the apron. The use of the full MLE would give us just about 7m in breathing room and that only accounts for just 4 players (or possibly 5 if we choose to break up the MLE among multiple players). Either way, about 4 vet mins presses up against the hard cap and we can’t do much more....setting us up with just 8-9 on the roster, which is illegal to start the season with.

Scenario A: trade for S&t player and get hard capped. Would we still have eve ability to use the full MLE?

So essentially if you trade for a S&t player like Lowry (estimating 25-30m per on a new deal and assuming we trade all the guaranteed money on our books outside Bron/AD), we would be roughly 25-30m away from breaching the apron as a hard capped team and that would be with only 3 players on the roster. At a minimum (pun intended), we can only round out the roster to 12 with 8 vet mins deals (~2m) and use the full MLE. We would be right up against the apron, but still it would be legal and possible.

Scenario B: trade for a max guy and avoid the hard cap

In this instance, we would try to trade for Cp3, but unlike Lowry I. The example above, we do not get him coming back on a new S&t deal. We have him opt into his player option of 44.2m and we trade for that with the current salary we have on our books (and if necessary S&ts with our free agents...FYI Kuz/Kcp/Trez opted in gets you Cp3’s 44.2m)). Once he’s a Laker, you can have talks to extend him if he’s looking for that rumored 100m extension. But with this instance we traded for his bird rights and for a larger 2021/22 season cap hit than Lowry in the example above, but now we can shoot past the 143m apron since he was not acquired as a S&t’d player. Of course to remain as a soft cap operating team, we would have to forego the use of the full MLE and only rely on the miniMLE to remain as a soft capped team. This allows us to give a bigger bag to the free agents who avoided the Cp3 purge. So for instance if THT was not involved in the trade, we can offer him a 10-12m per extension and only worry about luxury taxes at that point....cap apron be damned.

Hope that clears up some hypotheticals for you guys.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:33 pm    Post subject:

@vasashi17+ Thanks much!

Tricky salary business then... probably at least 22-25 for DS. Wonder if he would do a 2yr at 25-30M? Looking at the crazy salaries in the league, that probably is still movable and in line with LBJ's contract if not.

Also sounds like Lakers would like Harrell to opt out and the replaced with a better roster fit using that MLE "space" (I hope he does opt out, but I don't see why he would get more money elsewhere with how the season went down). Maybe the coach/FO realized the error with getting Harrell and this is what lead to the benching and insistence on only playing him at center?

Would seem to me that KCP, BMac, Wes, Morris and Gasol are relatively easy to retain and I think will work better next year. Definitely would like to see Kuz gone though, and would love for that to be for a guy like Jerami Grant if that isn't complete pipe.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:56 am    Post subject:

^^^ Thanks bro!

A few things need to be addressed for cap purposes regarding the use of our full MLE (which triggers the hard cap), matching rights regarding our RFA THT (spoiler alert: other teams might use the Gilbert Arenas loophole and we are powerless to match the offer), why we could use our full MLE on THT, using Schro or any of our current FAs in a S&t that would trigger BYC and impact how that player’s new salary counts in aggregation for trade purposes.

Full MLE & how it applies to THT:
Valued at roughly 9.5m and hard caps us at the cap apron of roughly 143m.
Can be used to match RFA THT, IF he gets a team’s offer sheet where he signs for that amount either using that cap having team’s cap space or a cap strapped team’s own full MLE.
Once we use it to match THT, we lose it and can’t use it on another free agent. That’s the con, but the pro to using it on THT is that it allows us to only offer him a 1 year deal (by renouncing his early bird rights first) and then at the end of the year, he would have gained full bird rights with us to finally get paid next summer.

Why we would be forced to use the full MLE to match THT:
Since he is a 2nd year player who is going into his 3rd year (which makes him a RFA) we only have his early bird rights. Early bird rights give us the ability to offer 175% of his previous year’s salary (ie 2.6m) or 105% of the avg NBA salary, (so 10.5m), whichever is greater. Also if we use early bird rights to keep him, his new deal has to be a minimum of 2 years (maxing out at about 22m). Comparing that to what he could get paid next summer as a full bird rights player.
Year 1: 10.5m (early bird 105% of 10m avg NBA salary vs 9.5m (full MLE)
Year 2: 11m (5% annual raise as early bird 2 yr length min) vs potentially 30.5m (as 25% max player eating off full bird rights)

So let’s say a cap strapped team offers their full MLE to THT and he accepts, we have 48 hrs to match it and since we are cap strapped ourselves (guaranteed team salary of Bron/AD/Kcp/Kuz/Marc/Deng = 110.3m on a salary cap of 112.4m) and only have THT’s early bird rights, we can choose to use an early bird exception or the Mid-level exception as part of the Gilbert Arenas provision.

The Gilbert Arenas loophole kicks in if a cap having team offers THT an avg salary (on a minimum 3 year deal) that is higher than 105% of the avg NBA salary (the early bird mechanism we would use to match). So for example if another team has 11m in cap space and offers THT essentially 3yrs 33m using a price hike in year 3 of the deal, it would break down as...
Year 1: 9.5m (roughly full MLE amount that team is restricted to offer via the Gilbert Arenas provision so that we have the ability to match it)
Year 2: 10m (5% raise of year 1 where new team can only offer a 5% raise as part of the Gilbert Arenas provision)
Year 3: 13.5m (loophole applies here where the 11m in cap space difference is made up as long as all 3 years on the deal are guaranteed and no bonuses are applied).

So essentially any team with cap space greater than 1m of the full MLE (ie >10.5m) can outright steal THT from us if he agrees to a minimum 3yr fully guaranteed offer sheet. Of course after those 3 years, his new team would have acquired his full bird rights anyways. Hopefully we have developed enough good faith with Klutch where they don’t use that against us in leverage during contract negotiations. Either way, I can see us byosssing his early bird rights and offering THT a 1yr full MLE, which builds in a no-trade clause that gives dude ability to reject a trade this coming year so that he can eat off his full bird rights next summer. Of course the downside is he uses our MLE and we only would have complicated trades with many associated restrictions (one being the hard cap his MLE offer triggered) and vet min exceptions to round out the roster. It wound be a huge favor, but another route is that we renounce his early bird and offer a max non bird contract to him (120% previous contract or vet min, whatever is higher). That wound out him on a 1yr 3.1m deal, but it unlocks full bird rights next summer. Either way, keeping or dealing THT will have its complications.

However this complicated loophole does not apply to AC or Schro since we kept AC on the roster for 3 years and gained his full bird rights and acquired Schro’s full bird rights in the Okc trade. They will have their own complications however....

Triggering BYC using our free agents in a S&t:
So BYC is triggered when a player earns 20% more than their previous year’s salary. Schro earned 16m, so if he gets more that 19.2m in year 1 of his new deal, he is considered BYC in S&t transactions. AC made 2.75m last season, so anything that pays him more than 3.3m annually on his new deal triggers BYC conditions for him in any S&t transaction.

BYC conditions are where a player’s salary in trade aggregation counts either as his salary from last year or 50% of his new annual salary, whichever is greater. So for example Schro on a new 4yr 100m deal has him at 25m per and since it would trigger BYC (>20% his last salary) he would only count as 16m in salary aggregation for any S&t.

So I apologize for the confusion I may have cause where I made earlier comments saying the more Schro earns, the better it is in minimizing assets traded out for salary matching purposes. Cause even if he gets a 30% max deal that pays him at a starting of 33.6m annually, he still wound only count as 16.8m in outgoing salary for us, while counting as the full 33.6m in salary for the team trading for him. Not to mention, the team trading for a S&t’d Schroder would then be hard capped with that ridiculously overpaid contract on their books.

So in a nutshell, any S&t deal involving Schro has his outgoing salary set at 16m for us, since any new deal he seeks most likely triggers BYC conditions for his involvement in a S&t.

As for AC, let’s say his new deal gives him 8m per and he is involved in a S&t, dude wound only count as 4m in outgoing salary for us.

So to put it plainly...we are asset deprived...and even if our outbound assets grant us S&t possibilities, there’s never going to be a situation where we exploit their full value as an asset.

#AndThe(Cap)HitsKeepComing
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:10 am    Post subject:

LakersMD wrote:
vasashi17+ wrote:
To add, the cap projections are ~143m is the apron (aka hard cap)

MiniMLE aka tax payer mid level exception ~6m (doesn’t trigger the hard cap)
MLE aka non-tax payer mid level exception ~9.5m (does trigger hard cap restrictions)

Team salary (Bron, AD, Kcp, Kuz, Marc, THT RFA cap hold, 1st round pick cap hold, Deng dead cap hit) is ~ 115m

If you include roughly 10m per for AC and THT as their potential FA market price points, plus if we make McKinnie’s deal fully guaranteed and let’s say Trez opts in then our team salary roughly becomes ~ 147m, which means we will only be allowed to use the miniMLE since we already breached the apron. That also doesn’t include a full roster of a minimum of 12, so it really looks like the miniMLE will be the way to go this summer unless we lose AC, THT, Trez and any of our other key free agents and replace them with vet mins.

So let’s just say, we got 6m in potential cap to mess with. I don’t anticipate us being hard capped this offseason since we would really be boxed in and restricted if we elect to go that route. That means any potential 3rd star target (like Lowry or an opted out Cp3) that come to us via S&t are also likely improbable. =(


Thanks! Very helpful. Hopefully the usual suspects can get it through their thick skulls.


So theoretically if Schroder asks for 30 million per, you would just give it to him?

Just because you believe he's tradeable at 25 and I think he's tradeable at 18 doesn't mean one of us is a genius and the other is thick.

90% of us know how bad the reality of the situation is but then again I didn't want to go all in on the Godfather trade and divestment of assets for Kawhi in the first place.

I fully grasp the utility of signing Dennis as a future asset but the only thing some of us differ on is what price he can be moved.

Are you willing to go on record saying you believe he can be traded at 25 million or 30 million?

Or maybe you believe 18 is the ceiling as some of us thick ones do.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:17 am    Post subject:

@B: I stated this within that monster post above:

Quote:
So I apologize for the confusion I may have cause where I made earlier comments saying the more Schro earns, the better it is in minimizing assets traded out for salary matching purposes. Cause even if he gets a 30% max deal that pays him at a starting of 33.6m annually, he still wound only count as 16.8m in outgoing salary for us, while counting as the full 33.6m in salary for the team trading for him. Not to mention, the team trading for a S&t’d Schroder would then be hard capped with that ridiculously overpaid contract on their books.


My bad! BYC has been pretty much eliminated in the new CBA, but it still holds in pertaining to S&t deals to regain assets. I certainly overlooked that as it pertains to Schro.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:35 am    Post subject:

This is an excellent thread, thanks

DS the asset looking more and more as a must sign
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