"We Gave Away A Decade Worth of Talent for AD"
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:40 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players.


That's true. I think about this when I hear people talk about our genius scouting department. For sure, we've had successes later in the draft, like Kuzma, and with an undrafted player in the case of Reaves. But we've just been average at the higher end of the draft. No real home runs given our draft position, no real strikeouts, either.


I think we draft so well with late 1sts, 2nd rounders, and undrafted.

But I think the problem is that Jeanie, Magic, etc. get too involved with the high level picks. Like that Lonzo one is ALL Jeanie/Magic there. Wonder what our scouting staff recommended on that one.


I have no problem with that pick, really. Lonzo and Fultz were the consensus top two picks in that draft. We actually got lucky that the Sixers took Fultz. It would have been good if the front office correctly forecast that Tatum would be a better player, but hindsight is 20/20.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:02 am    Post subject:

lakersfan8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Let's look at it this way:

2014 draft:

Boston (#6): Smart
Lakers (#7): Jules

While Jules had some decent years, I think Smart is the better player as he is a 2 way guy now and a DPOY.

2015 draft:
Lakers (#2): DLO

2016 draft:
Lakers (#2): BI
Boston (#3): Brown

I think this is a wash talent-wise. BI is probably a more complete offensive player, but if you take into account both sides of the ball, Brown is more of a 2 way player (and more durable than BI health-wise)

2017 draft:
Lakers (#2): Lonzo
Boston (#3): Tatum

Not even close. Boston gets a 1st team all NBA player while Lonzo, is again, hurt.

2018 draft:
Lakers (#25): Wagner
Boston (#27): Williams

Williams was 2nd team all Defense. A clear win for Boston.

So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players. But, we parlayed BI/Zo (and other parts) into AD, who at the time of the trade had made all NBA 1st team (2015, 2017, and 2018). So even though we had lackluster drafting (only exception was BI), we bridged that gap with the only strategy that the Lakers seem to know: trades/FA. We picked up 1st team all NBA LBJ and traded for AD.

While what you said are true, I think you need to include all of the prospect we had and that include players like Zubac, Kuzma, Larry Nance and Clarkson. There’s also the #4 draft pick which could be Garland.
PG: Garland, Clarkson
SG: Ball, Russell, Caruso
SF: Ingram, Kuzma
PF: Randle, Nance
C:Zubac. Wagner


I can see a high defensive potential of Ball, Caruso, Ingram, Kuzma and Nance.

With few years of MLE signing plus our own draft pick rookie, the lineup could be in a deep playoff run. In addition, we could trade some young players for valuable veterans like Horford etc. So I wouldn’t rule out our possibility of winning a championship if we went another route. It depends on how the front office build the roster.

we can't afford them all, and even if we could, that team is not good enough to win a championship. too many players need ball in their hands, and ZERO good defenders outside of AC.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:02 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players.


That's true. I think about this when I hear people talk about our genius scouting department. For sure, we've had successes later in the draft, like Kuzma, and with an undrafted player in the case of Reaves. But we've just been average at the higher end of the draft. No real home runs given our draft position, no real strikeouts, either.


I think we draft so well with late 1sts, 2nd rounders, and undrafted.

But I think the problem is that Jeanie, Magic, etc. get too involved with the high level picks. Like that Lonzo one is ALL Jeanie/Magic there. Wonder what our scouting staff recommended on that one.


I have no problem with that pick, really. Lonzo and Fultz were the consensus top two picks in that draft. We actually got lucky that the Sixers took Fultz. It would have been good if the front office correctly forecast that Tatum would be a better player, but hindsight is 20/20.


IIRC, Tatum refused to work out for us because he didn't want to have to compete with a fellow Dukie forward, Brandon Ingram. We could have thumbed our nose at him and picked him anyways, but he didn't do us any favors. And, if Lonzo could stay healthy, he's a damn useful player--I don't recall red flags in his background, but I could be wrong.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:15 am    Post subject:

lakersfan8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
lakersfan8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Let's look at it this way:

2014 draft:

Boston (#6): Smart
Lakers (#7): Jules

While Jules had some decent years, I think Smart is the better player as he is a 2 way guy now and a DPOY.

2015 draft:
Lakers (#2): DLO

2016 draft:
Lakers (#2): BI
Boston (#3): Brown

I think this is a wash talent-wise. BI is probably a more complete offensive player, but if you take into account both sides of the ball, Brown is more of a 2 way player (and more durable than BI health-wise)

2017 draft:
Lakers (#2): Lonzo
Boston (#3): Tatum

Not even close. Boston gets a 1st team all NBA player while Lonzo, is again, hurt.

2018 draft:
Lakers (#25): Wagner
Boston (#27): Williams

Williams was 2nd team all Defense. A clear win for Boston.

So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players. But, we parlayed BI/Zo (and other parts) into AD, who at the time of the trade had made all NBA 1st team (2015, 2017, and 2018). So even though we had lackluster drafting (only exception was BI), we bridged that gap with the only strategy that the Lakers seem to know: trades/FA. We picked up 1st team all NBA LBJ and traded for AD.

While what you said are true, I think you need to include all of the prospect we had and that include players like Zubac, Kuzma, Larry Nance and Clarkson. There’s also the #4 draft pick which could be Garland.
PG: Garland, Clarkson
SG: Ball, Russell, Caruso
SF: Ingram, Kuzma
PF: Randle, Nance
C:Zubac. Wagner

I can see a high defensive potential of Ball, Caruso, Ingram, Kuzma and Nance.

With few years of MLE signing plus our own draft pick rookie, the lineup could be in a deep playoff run. In addition, we could trade some young players for valuable veterans like Horford etc. So I wouldn’t rule out our possibility of winning a championship if we went another route. It depends on how the front office build the roster.


There is no way a team keeps literally all of its draft picks at FMV. And they won't develop the same way they did as well. Just unrealistic at all IMO.

Like I said they can always trade for valuable veterans role players like how the Warriors got Iguodala and Celtics got Horford.
Not the role players that are the issue. You're going to pay DLO 30m to be a bench guard? Or Lonzo 25m as a starter who misses 30+ games a year? I think Jules/BI get in each other's way and so on.

Now you have a very expensive team with guys who can't develop correctly. No coincidence that Jules, DLO, BI, etc. all developed more as lead guys once they left the team and had chances to make mistakes and grow.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:16 am    Post subject:

I think we know what kind of team that Jeanie/FO is looking for. And a long developmental curve of 5+ years is not it. There's a reason why they look like they're protecting 2023/24 cap space. They don't rebuild, they want to reload. Thinking that the Lakers will do otherwise, or crying about how they didn't that seems counterproductive to me as we have seen this blueprint for decades now.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:10 pm    Post subject:

Chick's Magic Johnson wrote:
IIRC, Tatum refused to work out for us because he didn't want to have to compete with a fellow Dukie forward, Brandon Ingram. We could have thumbed our nose at him and picked him anyways, but he didn't do us any favors. And, if Lonzo could stay healthy, he's a damn useful player--I don't recall red flags in his background, but I could be wrong.


If I recall correctly, Tatum said that he didn't think it was worth his time because the Lakers had Ingram and weren't going to pick another guy who was so similar. He might have been right, but that's all water under the bridge.

As for Lonzo, there were a couple red flags: his weird shot and his dad. As you say, though, he eventually became a good enough player when healthy. My biggest issue with him was that I wasn't sure he was a good fit for the modern game. He wasn't even shooting 50% from the free throw line. He looked much improved with the Bulls, but then he got hurt.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:37 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Chick's Magic Johnson wrote:
IIRC, Tatum refused to work out for us because he didn't want to have to compete with a fellow Dukie forward, Brandon Ingram. We could have thumbed our nose at him and picked him anyways, but he didn't do us any favors. And, if Lonzo could stay healthy, he's a damn useful player--I don't recall red flags in his background, but I could be wrong.


If I recall correctly, Tatum said that he didn't think it was worth his time because the Lakers had Ingram and weren't going to pick another guy who was so similar. He might have been right, but that's all water under the bridge.

As for Lonzo, there were a couple red flags: his weird shot and his dad. As you say, though, he eventually became a good enough player when healthy. My biggest issue with him was that I wasn't sure he was a good fit for the modern game. He wasn't even shooting 50% from the free throw line. He looked much improved with the Bulls, but then he got hurt.


This is all correct.

At the same time, it seems there are red flags for virtually everyone. If you look at the pre-drafts analysis, people were questioning whether Tatum would make it -- was his shot too streaky? could he learn to play defense? was he too lazy? could he handle the SF spot in the NBA after mostly facing PFs in college?

If Tatum hadn't made it, there was plenty of ammunition for online posters who wanted to wave red flags and content it was obvious he wouldn't succeed.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:32 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Chick's Magic Johnson wrote:
IIRC, Tatum refused to work out for us because he didn't want to have to compete with a fellow Dukie forward, Brandon Ingram. We could have thumbed our nose at him and picked him anyways, but he didn't do us any favors. And, if Lonzo could stay healthy, he's a damn useful player--I don't recall red flags in his background, but I could be wrong.


If I recall correctly, Tatum said that he didn't think it was worth his time because the Lakers had Ingram and weren't going to pick another guy who was so similar. He might have been right, but that's all water under the bridge.

As for Lonzo, there were a couple red flags: his weird shot and his dad. As you say, though, he eventually became a good enough player when healthy. My biggest issue with him was that I wasn't sure he was a good fit for the modern game. He wasn't even shooting 50% from the free throw line. He looked much improved with the Bulls, but then he got hurt.


This is all correct.

At the same time, it seems there are red flags for virtually everyone. If you look at the pre-drafts analysis, people were questioning whether Tatum would make it -- was his shot too streaky? could he learn to play defense? was he too lazy? could he handle the SF spot in the NBA after mostly facing PFs in college?

If Tatum hadn't made it, there was plenty of ammunition for online posters who wanted to wave red flags and content it was obvious he wouldn't succeed.


Over the past few years, can we say the only sure bet pick was Luka? And to an extend Ben?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:40 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think we know what kind of team that Jeanie/FO is looking for. And a long developmental curve of 5+ years is not it. There's a reason why they look like they're protecting 2023/24 cap space. They don't rebuild, they want to reload. Thinking that the Lakers will do otherwise, or crying about how they didn't that seems counterproductive to me as we have seen this blueprint for decades now.


It was fine with Dr. Buss/West/Mitch. Now it’s the blind leading the blind.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:42 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Chick's Magic Johnson wrote:
IIRC, Tatum refused to work out for us because he didn't want to have to compete with a fellow Dukie forward, Brandon Ingram. We could have thumbed our nose at him and picked him anyways, but he didn't do us any favors. And, if Lonzo could stay healthy, he's a damn useful player--I don't recall red flags in his background, but I could be wrong.


If I recall correctly, Tatum said that he didn't think it was worth his time because the Lakers had Ingram and weren't going to pick another guy who was so similar. He might have been right, but that's all water under the bridge.

As for Lonzo, there were a couple red flags: his weird shot and his dad. As you say, though, he eventually became a good enough player when healthy. My biggest issue with him was that I wasn't sure he was a good fit for the modern game. He wasn't even shooting 50% from the free throw line. He looked much improved with the Bulls, but then he got hurt.


Lonzo performed poorly in his workout in front of our scouts. He reportedly redeemed himself in a private workout with just Magic and Pelinka. I didn’t believe their lies then and I still don’t.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:48 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
Over the past few years, can we say the only sure bet pick was Luka? And to an extend Ben?


No to Doncic. Remember that he went third and that the Hawks flipped him for Trae Young (the fifth pick) and a draft pick that turned out to be Cam Reddish. I think the Hawks are fine with Trae, but he's not an MVP-in-waiting like Doncic. At the time, lot of people did not regard Doncic as a sure bet.

Simmons is polarizing, so I'll skip him. Other than Simmons, I'd say that Davis was the last truly sure bet pick. You could make a case for Towns. Having said that, there is some level of uncertainty with any pick. Exhibit A is Zion Williamson. He might still be a Hall of Famer, or he might be Greg Oden.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:55 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Chick's Magic Johnson wrote:
IIRC, Tatum refused to work out for us because he didn't want to have to compete with a fellow Dukie forward, Brandon Ingram. We could have thumbed our nose at him and picked him anyways, but he didn't do us any favors. And, if Lonzo could stay healthy, he's a damn useful player--I don't recall red flags in his background, but I could be wrong.


If I recall correctly, Tatum said that he didn't think it was worth his time because the Lakers had Ingram and weren't going to pick another guy who was so similar. He might have been right, but that's all water under the bridge.

As for Lonzo, there were a couple red flags: his weird shot and his dad. As you say, though, he eventually became a good enough player when healthy. My biggest issue with him was that I wasn't sure he was a good fit for the modern game. He wasn't even shooting 50% from the free throw line. He looked much improved with the Bulls, but then he got hurt.


Lonzo performed poorly in his workout in front of our scouts. He reportedly redeemed himself in a private workout with just Magic and Pelinka. I didn’t believe their lies then and I still don’t.


I don't know. It had a marketing feel to it at the time, but that may just be the way that Magic presented everything. Lonzo's dad had really pumped up the brand at the time, with BBB and all of that nonsense. Lonzo really isn't that kind of guy, though.

As an aside, we haven't heard much about the BBB lawsuit after it surfaced that the co-owner may have scammed millions out of the company. I just ran a search and found nothing. I wonder whether that case is still kicking around the courts.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:26 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
epic_ wrote:
Over the past few years, can we say the only sure bet pick was Luka? And to an extent Ben?


No to Doncic. Remember that he went third and that the Hawks flipped him for Trae Young (the fifth pick) and a draft pick that turned out to be Cam Reddish. I think the Hawks are fine with Trae, but he's not an MVP-in-waiting like Doncic. At the time, lot of people did not regard Doncic as a sure bet.

Simmons is polarizing, so I'll skip him. Other than Simmons, I'd say that Davis was the last truly sure bet pick. You could make a case for Towns. Having said that, there is some level of uncertainty with any pick. Exhibit A is Zion Williamson. He might still be a Hall of Famer, or he might be Greg Oden.


Ah yea, very true on the Luka front.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:41 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
epic_ wrote:
Over the past few years, can we say the only sure bet pick was Luka? And to an extent Ben?


No to Doncic. Remember that he went third and that the Hawks flipped him for Trae Young (the fifth pick) and a draft pick that turned out to be Cam Reddish. I think the Hawks are fine with Trae, but he's not an MVP-in-waiting like Doncic. At the time, lot of people did not regard Doncic as a sure bet.

Simmons is polarizing, so I'll skip him. Other than Simmons, I'd say that Davis was the last truly sure bet pick. You could make a case for Towns. Having said that, there is some level of uncertainty with any pick. Exhibit A is Zion Williamson. He might still be a Hall of Famer, or he might be Greg Oden.


Ah yea, very true on the Luka front.


Not completely true. He reportedly went third because Sacramento had the second pick that year. The rumor was Sacramento & Vlade Divac, who was the Kings GM at the time, passed on Doncic because Vlade had a poor relationship w/Doncic' father.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2864133-nba-rumors-vlade-divac-kings-passed-on-luka-doncic-because-of-his-dad
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:54 pm    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
lakersfan8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Let's look at it this way:

2014 draft:

Boston (#6): Smart
Lakers (#7): Jules

While Jules had some decent years, I think Smart is the better player as he is a 2 way guy now and a DPOY.

2015 draft:
Lakers (#2): DLO

2016 draft:
Lakers (#2): BI
Boston (#3): Brown

I think this is a wash talent-wise. BI is probably a more complete offensive player, but if you take into account both sides of the ball, Brown is more of a 2 way player (and more durable than BI health-wise)

2017 draft:
Lakers (#2): Lonzo
Boston (#3): Tatum

Not even close. Boston gets a 1st team all NBA player while Lonzo, is again, hurt.

2018 draft:
Lakers (#25): Wagner
Boston (#27): Williams

Williams was 2nd team all Defense. A clear win for Boston.

So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players. But, we parlayed BI/Zo (and other parts) into AD, who at the time of the trade had made all NBA 1st team (2015, 2017, and 2018). So even though we had lackluster drafting (only exception was BI), we bridged that gap with the only strategy that the Lakers seem to know: trades/FA. We picked up 1st team all NBA LBJ and traded for AD.

While what you said are true, I think you need to include all of the prospect we had and that include players like Zubac, Kuzma, Larry Nance and Clarkson. There’s also the #4 draft pick which could be Garland.
PG: Garland, Clarkson
SG: Ball, Russell, Caruso
SF: Ingram, Kuzma
PF: Randle, Nance
C:Zubac. Wagner


I can see a high defensive potential of Ball, Caruso, Ingram, Kuzma and Nance.

With few years of MLE signing plus our own draft pick rookie, the lineup could be in a deep playoff run. In addition, we could trade some young players for valuable veterans like Horford etc. So I wouldn’t rule out our possibility of winning a championship if we went another route. It depends on how the front office build the roster.

we can't afford them all, and even if we could, that team is not good enough to win a championship. too many players need ball in their hands, and ZERO good defenders outside of AC.

Actually we can, the total salary would still be lower than what they are paying this year.
The team would not win a championship this year I agree but keeping the whole team is not my intention. Minor trades could still be made to improve the team.
I think Ball and Nance are good defenders. Kuzma is above average. If Vogel is the coach, this would be a good defensive team.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:12 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
lakersfan8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
lakersfan8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Let's look at it this way:

2014 draft:

Boston (#6): Smart
Lakers (#7): Jules

While Jules had some decent years, I think Smart is the better player as he is a 2 way guy now and a DPOY.

2015 draft:
Lakers (#2): DLO

2016 draft:
Lakers (#2): BI
Boston (#3): Brown

I think this is a wash talent-wise. BI is probably a more complete offensive player, but if you take into account both sides of the ball, Brown is more of a 2 way player (and more durable than BI health-wise)

2017 draft:
Lakers (#2): Lonzo
Boston (#3): Tatum

Not even close. Boston gets a 1st team all NBA player while Lonzo, is again, hurt.

2018 draft:
Lakers (#25): Wagner
Boston (#27): Williams

Williams was 2nd team all Defense. A clear win for Boston.

So, in sum, Boston just beat us pretty handily in drafting players. But, we parlayed BI/Zo (and other parts) into AD, who at the time of the trade had made all NBA 1st team (2015, 2017, and 2018). So even though we had lackluster drafting (only exception was BI), we bridged that gap with the only strategy that the Lakers seem to know: trades/FA. We picked up 1st team all NBA LBJ and traded for AD.

While what you said are true, I think you need to include all of the prospect we had and that include players like Zubac, Kuzma, Larry Nance and Clarkson. There’s also the #4 draft pick which could be Garland.
PG: Garland, Clarkson
SG: Ball, Russell, Caruso
SF: Ingram, Kuzma
PF: Randle, Nance
C:Zubac. Wagner

I can see a high defensive potential of Ball, Caruso, Ingram, Kuzma and Nance.

With few years of MLE signing plus our own draft pick rookie, the lineup could be in a deep playoff run. In addition, we could trade some young players for valuable veterans like Horford etc. So I wouldn’t rule out our possibility of winning a championship if we went another route. It depends on how the front office build the roster.


There is no way a team keeps literally all of its draft picks at FMV. And they won't develop the same way they did as well. Just unrealistic at all IMO.

Like I said they can always trade for valuable veterans role players like how the Warriors got Iguodala and Celtics got Horford.
Not the role players that are the issue. You're going to pay DLO 30m to be a bench guard? Or Lonzo 25m as a starter who misses 30+ games a year? I think Jules/BI get in each other's way and so on.

Now you have a very expensive team with guys who can't develop correctly. No coincidence that Jules, DLO, BI, etc. all developed more as lead guys once they left the team and had chances to make mistakes and grow.

If you don't like to keep these players, you can always trade them. You could still trade DLO for Wiggings and a 1st round pick. My argument is, assuming we will not win a championship if we chose another path is a very premature statement. A good front office would make trades here and there to improve the team. Not that I feel trading for AD is wrong.

I agree we can't assume those players would become who they are now if they remained as a Laker but at least to me, other than Randle became a 3 points shooter, most of them has grown within my expectation. Assuming they will all be inferior to what they are now if they stay as a Laksers would also be a mistake. If we still hired Vogel as the head coach, we could expect them to improve their defense like how Kuzma did.
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