"We Gave Away A Decade Worth of Talent for AD"
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lakersfan8
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 6:05 pm    Post subject:

I have no problem trading for AD. The problem is whether we gave up too much in the trade due to lack of talent evaluation and negotiation skill from our front office, and the narrative that we might be able to sign AD via free agency next year. Either way, it would leave us more young talent and avoid having a situation that we are currently in. However, people need to understand, the front office had no intention to develop young talent due to their lack of vision. The plan has always been acquiring the 3rd star via free agency so they wanted to get rid of those young players rather than viewed them as valuable assets.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 9:51 pm    Post subject:

lakersfan8 wrote:
I have no problem trading for AD. The problem is whether we gave up too much in the trade due to lack of talent evaluation and negotiation skill from our front office, and the narrative that we might be able to sign AD via free agency next year. Either way, it would leave us more young talent and avoid having a situation that we are currently in. However, people need to understand, the front office had no intention to develop young talent due to their lack of vision. The plan has always been acquiring the 3rd star via free agency so they wanted to get rid of those young players rather than viewed them as valuable assets.


The interest in Darvin Ham signals to me that want to move forward and develop young talent. Maybe the FO learned a thing or two from the clownshow that has been the last 2 seasons. He's definitely not Lebron's pick.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 2:43 am    Post subject:

Quote:

The interest in Darvin Ham signals to me that want to move forward and develop young talent.

Interesting, it signals to me something completely different (1- They wanna keep the price tag at 5M per year and short on years 2-They wanna copy cat Milwaukee's system as it just won a ring and may win a second one this year, Ham picks Buldenhozer's mind 3-They wanna hire a NBA player turned coach who gets some respect from the players).
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 6:06 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:

The interest in Darvin Ham signals to me that want to move forward and develop young talent.

Interesting, it signals to me something completely different (1- They wanna keep the price tag at 5M per year and short on years 2-They wanna copy cat Milwaukee's system as it just won a ring and may win a second one this year, Ham picks Buldenhozer's mind 3-They wanna hire a NBA player turned coach who gets some respect from the players).

How are these 2 statements different.
No one in their right mind thinks bron is coachable. Get a coach in Ham who can start to install a philosophy on the margins while bron catches kaj then thank him and add more pieces.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 7:24 am    Post subject:

I wonder if this thread will be active for over a decade so we can truly know the answer to the question.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 9:32 am    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
lakersfan8 wrote:
I have no problem trading for AD. The problem is whether we gave up too much in the trade due to lack of talent evaluation and negotiation skill from our front office, and the narrative that we might be able to sign AD via free agency next year. Either way, it would leave us more young talent and avoid having a situation that we are currently in. However, people need to understand, the front office had no intention to develop young talent due to their lack of vision. The plan has always been acquiring the 3rd star via free agency so they wanted to get rid of those young players rather than viewed them as valuable assets.


The interest in Darvin Ham signals to me that want to move forward and develop young talent. Maybe the FO learned a thing or two from the clownshow that has been the last 2 seasons. He's definitely not Lebron's pick.

Then that would be another poor coach hire. Unless they trade Lebron and AD, otherwise what young talent do we have that is worth developing and giving up the season for?
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 9:32 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I wonder if this thread will be active for over a decade so we can truly know the answer to the question.


If AD bounces back next season and we compete for a title... then your position looks decent.

If he's injured and the team flounders then it looks not so great.

Unless you think AD can have five bad years and bounce back... I think we may know next year... won't take ten years.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 12:00 pm    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I wonder if this thread will be active for over a decade so we can truly know the answer to the question.


If AD bounces back next season and we compete for a title... then your position looks decent.

If he's injured and the team flounders then it looks not so great.

Unless you think AD can have five bad years and bounce back... I think we may know next year... won't take ten years.


We don't know what the "decade of talent" we gave up can/won't achieve.

Lakers have basically set up their cap situation where in 2023/24/25 they will likely pursue max players again. So it's just hard to speculate any one direction right now, except, that the Lakers won one title so far.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 12:50 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I wonder if this thread will be active for over a decade so we can truly know the answer to the question.


If AD bounces back next season and we compete for a title... then your position looks decent.

If he's injured and the team flounders then it looks not so great.

Unless you think AD can have five bad years and bounce back... I think we may know next year... won't take ten years.


We don't know what the "decade of talent" we gave up can/won't achieve.

Lakers have basically set up their cap situation where in 2023/24/25 they will likely pursue max players again. So it's just hard to speculate any one direction right now, except, that the Lakers won one title so far.


I agree that with the title in hand, we're definitely ahead in the trade right now. But it feels more like we're set up to go back into mid-2010s star hunting mode with an aging superstar next summer that won't yield what we think it will, since most of the big names will just end up staying with their teams.

Above all, we need a healthy AD ASAP to avoid an even deeper hole for the franchise. But if it doesn't look like anybody is coming next summer and the team is still hovering around the playoff fringes in 2022/2023, with us not having many draft picks...you really have to look into trading AD sooner rather than later.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 5:40 am    Post subject:

The free agency will be the main factor. When LA traded away the talent they did for AD, they basically married themselves to FA capspce, old Lebron and AD until 2024. First FA they struck out with Kawhi, but struck gold with their plan B (maybe by fluke) by signing elite role players like KCP/Green/Caruso etc.

With the current WB/Lebron deal, again there should be a huge FA play in 2023. It may go as Aeneas and some seem to think. Then likely another play in FA in 2024 and later on. Have to see how it all plays out.

I personally wish for the Lakers to move Bron/AD for longterm assets, let WB deal expire (John Wall him) and get into FA next season fresh. Not many like this idea, but I think the lure of playing in LA is a lot more than some realize. It's not like it was 10 years ago with Jim vs Jeanie going on and old Kobe around. If you detach from old Lebron, you give a lot of younger stars that this could be your team to shine on. You won't be a FA winner right away, but I like LA's chances at FA with Pelinka/FO vs trading back into championship level contention.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 6:03 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
The free agency will be the main factor. When LA traded away the talent they did for AD, they basically married themselves to FA capspce, old Lebron and AD until 2024. First FA they struck out with Kawhi, but struck gold with their plan B (maybe by fluke) by signing elite role players like KCP/Green/Caruso etc.

With the current WB/Lebron deal, again there should be a huge FA play in 2023. It may go as Aeneas and some seem to think. Then likely another play in FA in 2024 and later on. Have to see how it all plays out.

I personally wish for the Lakers to move Bron/AD for longterm assets, let WB deal expire (John Wall him) and get into FA next season fresh. Not many like this idea, but I think the lure of playing in LA is a lot more than some realize. It's not like it was 10 years ago with Jim vs Jeanie going on and old Kobe around. If you detach from old Lebron, you give a lot of younger stars that this could be your team to shine on. You won't be a FA winner right away, but I like LA's chances at FA with Pelinka/FO vs trading back into championship level contention.


I like to think that there is a reasonable alternative. I just don't see it. How can there be a huge FA play in 2023 when there are no huge FAs available? The likely scenario, if we follow that route, is overpaying for some third tier stars. Or we can bump to 2024, but that doesn't look promising. This reminds me so much of the 2007 and 2008 plans, which went nowhere.

You're not going to trade Lebron for a pile of young assets. I recommend Part 1 of the Arnovitz interview by the Kamenetzky brothers. Arnovitz made a tremendous point about this: Lebron is not going to agree to go to a team that gives up its assets to get him, and no team is trading for Lebron if he doesn't want to be there. This reminds me of the Kobe situation in 2007: He wanted to go to Chicago, but not if Chicago was sending us its young stars.

We can probably trade Davis, but if we do, we're buying high and selling low. We might get a modest return, but no one is sending us a top tier or second tier star for Davis. You're probably looking at eating a bad contract as part of the deal.

Here is the point that everyone needs to wrap their brains around: I think everyone agrees that you need a top tier star to be a serious contender. You can define "top tier" however you want, but you know what I mean. Top tier stars sign max extensions. It is rare that one of them ever becomes available as a free agent. When they do (Durant, Kawhi), they may not have much interest in the Lakers for whatever reason. You may be able to get third tier free agents, and maybe an occasional second tier free agent (George, Beal), but you're going to wind up maxxing out someone who isn't good enough to make you a contender. That's a trap, not an opportunity.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 6:53 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
The free agency will be the main factor. When LA traded away the talent they did for AD, they basically married themselves to FA capspce, old Lebron and AD until 2024. First FA they struck out with Kawhi, but struck gold with their plan B (maybe by fluke) by signing elite role players like KCP/Green/Caruso etc.

With the current WB/Lebron deal, again there should be a huge FA play in 2023. It may go as Aeneas and some seem to think. Then likely another play in FA in 2024 and later on. Have to see how it all plays out.

I personally wish for the Lakers to move Bron/AD for longterm assets, let WB deal expire (John Wall him) and get into FA next season fresh. Not many like this idea, but I think the lure of playing in LA is a lot more than some realize. It's not like it was 10 years ago with Jim vs Jeanie going on and old Kobe around. If you detach from old Lebron, you give a lot of younger stars that this could be your team to shine on. You won't be a FA winner right away, but I like LA's chances at FA with Pelinka/FO vs trading back into championship level contention.


Agreed 100%. AD is just too fragile to build around as a #1. I would try to recoup as many long term assets, picks as possible. At some point a FA will sign here again. Maybe it's Booker in 2024...The Phoenix ownership is bad and CP3 only has a few prime years left. Sometimes you just need to realize where you are and get ahead of it. The Celtics were able to trade Pierce/KG toward the end of that era and got a war chest of picks which is why they have Tatum/Brown at this point. There is no Billy King out there today giving away draft picks like candy but the Lakers could seriously restock their long term assets.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:07 am    Post subject:

injury aside, the thing that worries me the most is his attitude when he was healthy enough to play. he was just going through the motion out there outside of couple games. for most of the time he was out there this past season, he played with no fire and low energy. seems like he does not enjoy playing anymore. this is far more serious than his annual injuries. got to cut the loss short trade his arse this summer. you can't teach a near 30 year old to grow a pair and play with fire, you either have it or you don't.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:30 am    Post subject:

Quote:

Here is the point that everyone needs to wrap their brains around: I think everyone agrees that you need a top tier star to be a serious contender. You can define "top tier" however you want, but you know what I mean. Top tier stars sign max extensions. It is rare that one of them ever becomes available as a free agent. When they do (Durant, Kawhi), they may not have much interest in the Lakers for whatever reason. You may be able to get third tier free agents, and maybe an occasional second tier free agent (George, Beal), but you're going to wind up maxxing out someone who isn't good enough to make you a contender. That's a trap, not an opportunity.

I think the way around this in FA is to sign some 10-12M guys back. We have literally given up everyone and anyone who was that starting caliber/quality bench player who was making 10-13M. Kuz, KCP, Caruso, Trezz, etc.

If we want a "team" again, we need to bring some good/solid players in. Even if we just subsitute Westbrook's useless 47M-50M contract for 3 free agents who make a net of 50M, you may have added 3 role players to "old" Lebron in his last year '23-24 and AD heading into FA as well in 2024. So then you have THT, 3 role players from FA, Reaves, maybe some other pices and all your FRPs in tact when 2024 hits and both AD/Lebron may go to free agency.

I don't think we will find any savior in FA, but the way I see it, there is no easy quick fix. You need to just bring in talent, and there's many ways to do so. I just don't trust Pelinka/FO to trade back into contention or being a top 3 team in the West. If forced to chose, I much rather them have capspace to negotiate some free agents to join us, than pull of trades.

Even if all the FAs you sign in 2023 are future trade assets, you're adding some assets to your team to use via trade. The whole problem with Pelinka has been that he's dumped all his trade assets for big names. If he just gets back to subsituting even Westbrooks near 50M for 3 players in FA, he's got something to work with, especially if players like Reaves. THT etc develop. Suddenly you have 5-6 players that can be part of your rotation, and if you sign an all-star in FA in 2024 (lets say) you're sitting in a decent spot.

The other option which I am afraid they are considering is to abandon the 2023/2024 cap and go all in on a Westbrook/27/29 picks trade for 2 overpaid starters. I'd refrain from doing that. For me FA is not about Jokic or bust. That's if you're going for your max player. You can add some quality assets in FA if you make some wise choices. We actually did this once upon a time, with Danny Green/KCP/etc. We can do it again, or lets say I rather Pelinka spend FA money on MLE-15M level guys, than try to trade Westbrook+2FRPs. I'm very afraid of what we may get back in the WB+2FRPs trade with Pelinka the one doing the negotiating. Some are excited about adding guys like Hield (one dimensional shooter that isn't even that accurate) and Brogdon (Inconsistent 3 point shooter with limited creating vision as a PG) for Westbrook, but if you look at their contracts, not sure that's good value, and it certainly isn't worth giving up draft picks for.

Basically it's pick your poison. You rather have Pelinka negotiate in FA (Which he has proven he can do decently well) or trade (which he has proven to be horrible at). I much rather (since we're keeping this FO in tact) this FO have free agent money to play with. This isn't the Mitch/Jim regime (who were the opposite it seemed, good at trading, poor in FA).


Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Wed May 04, 2022 7:36 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:34 am    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
injury aside, the thing that worries me the most is his attitude when he was healthy enough to play. he was just going through the motion out there outside of couple games. for most of the time he was out there this past season, he played with no fire and low energy. seems like he does not enjoy playing anymore. this is far more serious than his annual injuries. got to cut the loss short trade his arse this summer. you can't teach a near 30 year old to grow a pair and play with fire, you either have it or you don't.


This is BS. Dude was literally defending 1 to 5 every single time
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:10 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:

Here is the point that everyone needs to wrap their brains around: I think everyone agrees that you need a top tier star to be a serious contender. You can define "top tier" however you want, but you know what I mean. Top tier stars sign max extensions. It is rare that one of them ever becomes available as a free agent. When they do (Durant, Kawhi), they may not have much interest in the Lakers for whatever reason. You may be able to get third tier free agents, and maybe an occasional second tier free agent (George, Beal), but you're going to wind up maxxing out someone who isn't good enough to make you a contender. That's a trap, not an opportunity.

I think the way around this in FA is to sign some 10-12M guys back. We have literally given up everyone and anyone who was that starting caliber/quality bench player who was making 10-13M. Kuz, KCP, Caruso, Trezz, etc.

If we want a "team" again, we need to bring some good/solid players in. Even if we just subsitute Westbrook's useless 47M-50M contract for 3 free agents who make a net of 50M, you may have added 3 role players to "old" Lebron in his last year '23-24 and AD heading into FA as well in 2024. So then you have THT, 3 role players from FA, Reaves, maybe some other pices and all your FRPs in tact when 2024 hits and both AD/Lebron may go to free agency.

I don't think we will find any savior in FA, but the way I see it, there is no easy quick fix. You need to just bring in talent, and there's many ways to do so. I just don't trust Pelinka/FO to trade back into contention or being a top 3 team in the West. If forced to chose, I much rather them have capspace to negotiate some free agents to join us, than pull of trades.

Even if all the FAs you sign in 2023 are future trade assets, you're adding some assets to your team to use via trade. The whole problem with Pelinka has been that he's dumped all his trade assets for big names. If he just gets back to subsituting even Westbrooks near 50M for 3 players in FA, he's got something to work with, especially if players like Reaves. THT etc develop. Suddenly you have 5-6 players that can be part of your rotation, and if you sign an all-star in FA in 2024 (lets say) you're sitting in a decent spot.

The other option which I am afraid they are considering is to abandon the 2023/2024 cap and go all in on a Westbrook/27/29 picks trade for 2 overpaid starters. I'd refrain from doing that. For me FA is not about Jokic or bust. That's if you're going for your max player. You can add some quality assets in FA if you make some wise choices. We actually did this once upon a time, with Danny Green/KCP/etc. We can do it again, or lets say I rather Pelinka spend FA money on MLE-15M level guys, than try to trade Westbrook+2FRPs. I'm very afraid of what we may get back in the WB+2FRPs trade with Pelinka the one doing the negotiating. Some are excited about adding guys like Hield (one dimensional shooter that isn't even that accurate) and Brogdon (Inconsistent 3 point shooter with limited creating vision as a PG) for Westbrook, but if you look at their contracts, not sure that's good value, and it certainly isn't worth giving up draft picks for.

Basically it's pick your poison. You rather have Pelinka negotiate in FA (Which he has proven he can do decently well) or trade (which he has proven to be horrible at). I much rather (since we're keeping this FO in tact) this FO have free agent money to play with. This isn't the Mitch/Jim regime (who were the opposite it seemed, good at trading, poor in FA).


I just get so pissed thinking about the depth we had in 19/20, and even in 20/21. You trade a 1st and Green to get Dennis, and let him walk (should never have done that deal without an extension in place as it became a rental that cost us an important role player and a 1st).

And now we are trying to deconstruct Russ's 47m deal, and bring back role players again. Why the F did we trade for Russ in the first place.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:13 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:

Here is the point that everyone needs to wrap their brains around: I think everyone agrees that you need a top tier star to be a serious contender. You can define "top tier" however you want, but you know what I mean. Top tier stars sign max extensions. It is rare that one of them ever becomes available as a free agent. When they do (Durant, Kawhi), they may not have much interest in the Lakers for whatever reason. You may be able to get third tier free agents, and maybe an occasional second tier free agent (George, Beal), but you're going to wind up maxxing out someone who isn't good enough to make you a contender. That's a trap, not an opportunity.

I think the way around this in FA is to sign some 10-12M guys back. We have literally given up everyone and anyone who was that starting caliber/quality bench player who was making 10-13M. Kuz, KCP, Caruso, Trezz, etc.

If we want a "team" again, we need to bring some good/solid players in. Even if we just subsitute Westbrook's useless 47M-50M contract for 3 free agents who make a net of 50M, you may have added 3 role players to "old" Lebron in his last year '23-24 and AD heading into FA as well in 2024. So then you have THT, 3 role players from FA, Reaves, maybe some other pices and all your FRPs in tact when 2024 hits and both AD/Lebron may go to free agency.

I don't think we will find any savior in FA, but the way I see it, there is no easy quick fix. You need to just bring in talent, and there's many ways to do so. I just don't trust Pelinka/FO to trade back into contention or being a top 3 team in the West. If forced to chose, I much rather them have capspace to negotiate some free agents to join us, than pull of trades.

Even if all the FAs you sign in 2023 are future trade assets, you're adding some assets to your team to use via trade. The whole problem with Pelinka has been that he's dumped all his trade assets for big names. If he just gets back to subsituting even Westbrooks near 50M for 3 players in FA, he's got something to work with, especially if players like Reaves. THT etc develop. Suddenly you have 5-6 players that can be part of your rotation, and if you sign an all-star in FA in 2024 (lets say) you're sitting in a decent spot.

The other option which I am afraid they are considering is to abandon the 2023/2024 cap and go all in on a Westbrook/27/29 picks trade for 2 overpaid starters. I'd refrain from doing that. For me FA is not about Jokic or bust. That's if you're going for your max player. You can add some quality assets in FA if you make some wise choices. We actually did this once upon a time, with Danny Green/KCP/etc. We can do it again, or lets say I rather Pelinka spend FA money on MLE-15M level guys, than try to trade Westbrook+2FRPs. I'm very afraid of what we may get back in the WB+2FRPs trade with Pelinka the one doing the negotiating. Some are excited about adding guys like Hield (one dimensional shooter that isn't even that accurate) and Brogdon (Inconsistent 3 point shooter with limited creating vision as a PG) for Westbrook, but if you look at their contracts, not sure that's good value, and it certainly isn't worth giving up draft picks for.

Basically it's pick your poison. You rather have Pelinka negotiate in FA (Which he has proven he can do decently well) or trade (which he has proven to be horrible at). I much rather (since we're keeping this FO in tact) this FO have free agent money to play with. This isn't the Mitch/Jim regime (who were the opposite it seemed, good at trading, poor in FA).


I just get so pissed thinking about the depth we had in 19/20, and even in 20/21. You trade a 1st and Green to get Dennis, and let him walk (should never have done that deal without an extension in place as it became a rental that cost us an important role player and a 1st).

And now we are trying to deconstruct Russ's 47m deal, and bring back role players again. Why the F did we trade for Russ in the first place.


The eternal quest of this FO to build a 3 star team. That is all that they have been about since taking control only this time they succeeded.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:21 am    Post subject:

Yeah, that stupid 3 star idea needs to go but won't.

We didn't get Kawhi and lucked out getting Green and Rondo IIRC which turned out to be instrumental to the 2020 title.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:27 am    Post subject:

yeah, i bet jeanie thinks "well, we won with magic, kareeem and worthy - 3 stars is the ticket!"

well, there also wasn't a salary cap back then either.

venturalakersfan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quote:

Here is the point that everyone needs to wrap their brains around: I think everyone agrees that you need a top tier star to be a serious contender. You can define "top tier" however you want, but you know what I mean. Top tier stars sign max extensions. It is rare that one of them ever becomes available as a free agent. When they do (Durant, Kawhi), they may not have much interest in the Lakers for whatever reason. You may be able to get third tier free agents, and maybe an occasional second tier free agent (George, Beal), but you're going to wind up maxxing out someone who isn't good enough to make you a contender. That's a trap, not an opportunity.

I think the way around this in FA is to sign some 10-12M guys back. We have literally given up everyone and anyone who was that starting caliber/quality bench player who was making 10-13M. Kuz, KCP, Caruso, Trezz, etc.

If we want a "team" again, we need to bring some good/solid players in. Even if we just subsitute Westbrook's useless 47M-50M contract for 3 free agents who make a net of 50M, you may have added 3 role players to "old" Lebron in his last year '23-24 and AD heading into FA as well in 2024. So then you have THT, 3 role players from FA, Reaves, maybe some other pices and all your FRPs in tact when 2024 hits and both AD/Lebron may go to free agency.

I don't think we will find any savior in FA, but the way I see it, there is no easy quick fix. You need to just bring in talent, and there's many ways to do so. I just don't trust Pelinka/FO to trade back into contention or being a top 3 team in the West. If forced to chose, I much rather them have capspace to negotiate some free agents to join us, than pull of trades.

Even if all the FAs you sign in 2023 are future trade assets, you're adding some assets to your team to use via trade. The whole problem with Pelinka has been that he's dumped all his trade assets for big names. If he just gets back to subsituting even Westbrooks near 50M for 3 players in FA, he's got something to work with, especially if players like Reaves. THT etc develop. Suddenly you have 5-6 players that can be part of your rotation, and if you sign an all-star in FA in 2024 (lets say) you're sitting in a decent spot.

The other option which I am afraid they are considering is to abandon the 2023/2024 cap and go all in on a Westbrook/27/29 picks trade for 2 overpaid starters. I'd refrain from doing that. For me FA is not about Jokic or bust. That's if you're going for your max player. You can add some quality assets in FA if you make some wise choices. We actually did this once upon a time, with Danny Green/KCP/etc. We can do it again, or lets say I rather Pelinka spend FA money on MLE-15M level guys, than try to trade Westbrook+2FRPs. I'm very afraid of what we may get back in the WB+2FRPs trade with Pelinka the one doing the negotiating. Some are excited about adding guys like Hield (one dimensional shooter that isn't even that accurate) and Brogdon (Inconsistent 3 point shooter with limited creating vision as a PG) for Westbrook, but if you look at their contracts, not sure that's good value, and it certainly isn't worth giving up draft picks for.

Basically it's pick your poison. You rather have Pelinka negotiate in FA (Which he has proven he can do decently well) or trade (which he has proven to be horrible at). I much rather (since we're keeping this FO in tact) this FO have free agent money to play with. This isn't the Mitch/Jim regime (who were the opposite it seemed, good at trading, poor in FA).


I just get so pissed thinking about the depth we had in 19/20, and even in 20/21. You trade a 1st and Green to get Dennis, and let him walk (should never have done that deal without an extension in place as it became a rental that cost us an important role player and a 1st).

And now we are trying to deconstruct Russ's 47m deal, and bring back role players again. Why the F did we trade for Russ in the first place.


The eternal quest of this FO to build a 3 star team. That is all that they have been about since taking control only this time they succeeded.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:37 am    Post subject:

The problem wasn't so much that they pursued that 3rd superstar, it's that they over-committed and ended up with a poor fit. Does anyone doubt these past 2 seasons go differently if they ended up with CP3 instead before the Suns snatched him up? Westbrook was supposed to be the regular-season insurance policy when we already had a better one with depth and a defensive system that players bought into.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:42 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
If we want a "team" again, we need to bring some good/solid players in. Even if we just subsitute Westbrook's useless 47M-50M contract for 3 free agents who make a net of 50M, you may have added 3 role players to "old" Lebron in his last year '23-24 and AD heading into FA as well in 2024. So then you have THT, 3 role players from FA, Reaves, maybe some other pices and all your FRPs in tact when 2024 hits and both AD/Lebron may go to free agency.


Lebron's contract expires in '23, not '24. Let's assume that we extend him for one year to make your scenario work. Let's also assume that we let Westbrook expire. V+ has kicked around the numbers, but you would need to add $40-45M for Lebron. It would be tough to get to $30M in cap space without renouncing pretty much everything else. I don't see any way that you get to $50M.

So to get to $50M in cap space, we need to let both Westbrook and Lebron expire after the '23 season. So (using your assumptions) it would be Davis + 3 role players from FA, THT, maybe Monk, Nunn, and/or Reaves, and some vet mins. That's likely to be a deep lottery team, but the Pelicans can take our first-round pick.

But that's not the scenario that worries me, believe it or not. What worries me is that Jeanie will want a big splash, so we wind up maxxing out someone like Bradley Beal. That would be another step toward becoming Knicks West.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:57 am    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:
The problem wasn't so much that they pursued that 3rd superstar, it's that they over-committed and ended up with a poor fit. Does anyone doubt these past 2 seasons go differently if they ended up with CP3 instead before the Suns snatched him up? Westbrook was supposed to be the regular-season insurance policy when we already had a better one with depth and a defensive system that players bought into.

As good as CP3 is, and yes no argument about your point, if we have no depth but CP3+old Bron+injured AD we're about at 45 wins. Better, yes. We're a playoff team at least. But we still need some talent around the big 3 that can defend the other 2 spots. That's what Pelinka downplays in his quest for big 3s. Big 3s come at a cost, usually. Depth. I was really trying to look at the optimistic side, where THT steps up defensively, Monk improves on D, Nunn make a big impact. Dwight/DAJ can still play etc but none of that happened, and what other teams dumped or passed on, we picked up. Because we had limited resources. That's the same situation we would have been in with CP3/Kawhi, IMO, only because Kawhi/CP3 are better fits/players than WB, the end results wouldn't be as dire.

The best "big 3 plan" may have been Lowry, but Lowry wasn't really seen as a HOF superstar. We could have had Dennis/THT go off to Toronto (or something like that) and kept KCP, Kuz, Lowry and Caruso. (bleep). Lebron gets his 3rd option PG who can allow him to play more off the ball and go for scoring records and we don't suffer overall as a team. I was debating it in the trade FA thread a year ago, was not sure keeping THT was the right move. Now it doesn't look good at all. These little things we did that also end up hurting us (Caruso walking another).
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 9:00 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
If we want a "team" again, we need to bring some good/solid players in. Even if we just subsitute Westbrook's useless 47M-50M contract for 3 free agents who make a net of 50M, you may have added 3 role players to "old" Lebron in his last year '23-24 and AD heading into FA as well in 2024. So then you have THT, 3 role players from FA, Reaves, maybe some other pices and all your FRPs in tact when 2024 hits and both AD/Lebron may go to free agency.


Lebron's contract expires in '23, not '24. Let's assume that we extend him for one year to make your scenario work. Let's also assume that we let Westbrook expire. V+ has kicked around the numbers, but you would need to add $40-45M for Lebron. It would be tough to get to $30M in cap space without renouncing pretty much everything else. I don't see any way that you get to $50M.

So to get to $50M in cap space, we need to let both Westbrook and Lebron expire after the '23 season. So (using your assumptions) it would be Davis + 3 role players from FA, THT, maybe Monk, Nunn, and/or Reaves, and some vet mins. That's likely to be a deep lottery team, but the Pelicans can take our first-round pick.

But that's not the scenario that worries me, believe it or not. What worries me is that Jeanie will want a big splash, so we wind up maxxing out someone like Bradley Beal. That would be another step toward becoming Knicks West.

The point is: I rather have to spend the FA money (whatever it is) with Pelinka in power THAN Pelinka trading away assets instead. That's my main point. Of the two scenarios, I think we are better off giving Pelinka FA money to work with. Hence letting WB contract expire is not the worst thing to me. I would not move 2 picks to get WB off the team for 2 mediocre overpaid starters who won't tilt old Lebron/injury prone AD into title front runner position. I rather keep our draft picks and limited assets and then add some talent through free agency. If that is adding to old Lebron and AD ok, or if it's adding to just AD so be it. I'm just not for trading ... I think Pelinka doesn't do well on trades and has a better grasp of the FA market and how to lure FAs in.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 9:03 am    Post subject:

Quick question if anyone knows - are there any significant KLUTCH FAs in 2023?
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 9:53 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Yeah, that stupid 3 star idea needs to go but won't.

We didn't get Kawhi and lucked out getting Green and Rondo IIRC which turned out to be instrumental to the 2020 title.


Yes, you would think that winning a title with 2 stars and good role players would convince the FO that is the way to go. Sometimes I wonder how much say Magic has, the multiple star idea fits him well.
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