"We Gave Away A Decade Worth of Talent for AD"
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:19 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
KCP
Hield
Austin
Lebron
AD

That could have been an interesting lineup by year's end.
We would have had to lived through this idiotic lineup to start though:

KCP
Hield
Lebron
AD
Jordan

What's your point, epic? Well, just saying we were ok the last 2 years prior. It was the Westbrook trade that derailed us.


The crazy part of the Russ experience is that yes, it derailed us, but we will have to likely take back some longer contracts and give up a 1st to get rid of Russ. So the lingering consequences of Russ will take years to fully know.


They might choose to but they don’t have to. Let Westbrook’s contract expire and then move on. Of course I am guessing that the FO won’t do the obvious.


I'm not sure we can endure another year of fighting for the play-in tournament.


The opportunity cost of Russ was technically KCP/Kuz/Trezz/22nd pick in 2021 draft. But to me this also includes AC.

Having 47m worth of opportunity cost (in terms of having actual NBA level players) sitting at home doesn't work for the Lakers. Rox were tanking so Wall sitting at home was fine. But we will need to get some players in return that can help.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:24 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
I'm not sure we can endure another year of fighting for the play-in tournament.


I'm not sure we will have any choice in the matter.
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KindCrippler2000
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:25 am    Post subject:

Lots of interesting prospects coming up, with one of them being a Porzingis-Gobert hybrid in Victor Wembanyama. Don't think it was worth including the picks without protections. AD obviously had tremendous utility at the time, but we knew there would be diminishing returns with his injury situation. I think they've learned from this.
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venturalakersfan
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:43 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
KCP
Hield
Austin
Lebron
AD

That could have been an interesting lineup by year's end.
We would have had to lived through this idiotic lineup to start though:

KCP
Hield
Lebron
AD
Jordan

What's your point, epic? Well, just saying we were ok the last 2 years prior. It was the Westbrook trade that derailed us.


The crazy part of the Russ experience is that yes, it derailed us, but we will have to likely take back some longer contracts and give up a 1st to get rid of Russ. So the lingering consequences of Russ will take years to fully know.


They might choose to but they don’t have to. Let Westbrook’s contract expire and then move on. Of course I am guessing that the FO won’t do the obvious.


I'm not sure we can endure another year of fighting for the play-in tournament.


I don’t think that we have much of a choice, those decisions have already been made.
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focus
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 1:14 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
KCP
Hield
Austin
Lebron
AD

That could have been an interesting lineup by year's end.
We would have had to lived through this idiotic lineup to start though:

KCP
Hield
Lebron
AD
Jordan

What's your point, epic? Well, just saying we were ok the last 2 years prior. It was the Westbrook trade that derailed us.


The crazy part of the Russ experience is that yes, it derailed us, but we will have to likely take back some longer contracts and give up a 1st to get rid of Russ. So the lingering consequences of Russ will take years to fully know.


They might choose to but they don’t have to. Let Westbrook’s contract expire and then move on. Of course I am guessing that the FO won’t do the obvious.


I'm not sure we can endure another year of fighting for the play-in tournament.


I don’t think that we have much of a choice, those decisions have already been made.

This might be the best case scenario. Which is really something. But better than any less than the best case scenario.
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dabask11
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 1:39 pm    Post subject:

focus wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
KCP
Hield
Austin
Lebron
AD

That could have been an interesting lineup by year's end.
We would have had to lived through this idiotic lineup to start though:

KCP
Hield
Lebron
AD
Jordan

What's your point, epic? Well, just saying we were ok the last 2 years prior. It was the Westbrook trade that derailed us.


The crazy part of the Russ experience is that yes, it derailed us, but we will have to likely take back some longer contracts and give up a 1st to get rid of Russ. So the lingering consequences of Russ will take years to fully know.


They might choose to but they don’t have to. Let Westbrook’s contract expire and then move on. Of course I am guessing that the FO won’t do the obvious.


I'm not sure we can endure another year of fighting for the play-in tournament.


I don’t think that we have much of a choice, those decisions have already been made.

This might be the best case scenario. Which is really something. But better than any less than the best case scenario.


The fact we still can't tank for our pick in the next 2 years just speaks about the hilarity and sadness of our current situation.
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AD23
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 3:57 pm    Post subject:

What if we didn't do the trade and waited a decade plus for a ring?

How quickly you forget it took good 12 yrs from 1988 to 2000 to win a ring.
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epic_
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 4:17 pm    Post subject:

AD23 wrote:
What if we didn't do the trade and waited a decade plus for a ring?

How quickly you forget it took good 12 yrs from 1988 to 2000 to win a ring.


Personally, I gave them leeway cuz Magic contracted HIV in 91.
The Lakers got Shaq and Kobe in 96 ad we saw our other "kids" shipped out over the course of 3 years. Not apples to apples but we did say bye bye to Peeler and Lynch, then Eddie, then to Nick.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 4:34 pm    Post subject:

AD23 wrote:
What if we didn't do the trade and waited a decade plus for a ring?

How quickly you forget it took good 12 yrs from 1988 to 2000 to win a ring.


That's true, but we were competitive in a lot of those years. We made the Finals twice, the WC finals once, and the second round four times. We missed the playoffs once. Some people will say that anything other than a title is a failure, but a lot of those people were losing their minds when we missed the playoffs for six years.

This is what worries me. It's not that we might not win a title for 10 years, but that we might be pretty poor for a number of years to come. As I've been saying for a long time, we may look back on the Lebron era and the bubble title and just shrug.

Hopefully, Pelinka will find a way to avoid the worst-case scenario. We'll see.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 6:49 pm    Post subject:

AD23 wrote:
What if we didn't do the trade and waited a decade plus for a ring?

How quickly you forget it took good 12 yrs from 1988 to 2000 to win a ring.
At least during that stretch, we were drafting and developing players. The team was young and watchable. It was apparent what Jerry West and Mitch were doing at the time. The road to those rings in the 2000's were amazing. We were also a competitive and young squad during that journey. Great times.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 6:52 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
AD23 wrote:
What if we didn't do the trade and waited a decade plus for a ring?

How quickly you forget it took good 12 yrs from 1988 to 2000 to win a ring.
At least during that stretch, we were drafting and developing players. The team was young and watchable. It was apparent what Jerry West and Mitch were doing at the time. The journey to the rings in 2000's were amazing. Great times.


Yup. Don't forget drafting Fisher. Don't win those 09, 10 rings without him. You can't just throw out all the draft picks and then expect miracles.
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AD23
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 7:47 pm    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
AD23 wrote:
What if we didn't do the trade and waited a decade plus for a ring?

How quickly you forget it took good 12 yrs from 1988 to 2000 to win a ring.
At least during that stretch, we were drafting and developing players. The team was young and watchable. It was apparent what Jerry West and Mitch were doing at the time. The journey to the rings in 2000's were amazing. Great times.


Yup. Don't forget drafting Fisher. Don't win those 09, 10 rings without him. You can't just throw out all the draft picks and then expect miracles.


You forget we let Fisher go for 3-4 yrs. By bad luck for Fisher (and good luck for the Lakers), he came back when were back to contending.

So please don't act like Fisher was here the whole time.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 7:48 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
AD23 wrote:
What if we didn't do the trade and waited a decade plus for a ring?

How quickly you forget it took good 12 yrs from 1988 to 2000 to win a ring.
At least during that stretch, we were drafting and developing players. The team was young and watchable. It was apparent what Jerry West and Mitch were doing at the time. The road to those rings in the 2000's were amazing. We were also a competitive and young squad during that journey. Great times.


Well, we just won a title 2 years ago. So I'll give this front office another 2-3 years to fix things.
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dabask11
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:12 pm    Post subject:

AD23 wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
AD23 wrote:
What if we didn't do the trade and waited a decade plus for a ring?

How quickly you forget it took good 12 yrs from 1988 to 2000 to win a ring.
At least during that stretch, we were drafting and developing players. The team was young and watchable. It was apparent what Jerry West and Mitch were doing at the time. The road to those rings in the 2000's were amazing. We were also a competitive and young squad during that journey. Great times.


Well, we just won a title 2 years ago. So I'll give this front office another 2-3 years to fix things.


Hard to give this front office 2-3 years a chance to fix things when it was their meddling that caused our current situation.

Championship teams with quick turnarounds are usually due to the core aging, leaving or getting injured at the wrong time.

Can't think of a championship team becoming terrible suddenly because of self-inflicted wounds like bad trades.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:20 pm    Post subject:

AD23 wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
AD23 wrote:
What if we didn't do the trade and waited a decade plus for a ring?

How quickly you forget it took good 12 yrs from 1988 to 2000 to win a ring.
At least during that stretch, we were drafting and developing players. The team was young and watchable. It was apparent what Jerry West and Mitch were doing at the time. The road to those rings in the 2000's were amazing. We were also a competitive and young squad during that journey. Great times.


Well, we just won a title 2 years ago. So I'll give this front office another 2-3 years to fix things.
Difference is our stars are old and none of them are home grown.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:46 pm    Post subject:

AD23 wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
AD23 wrote:
What if we didn't do the trade and waited a decade plus for a ring?

How quickly you forget it took good 12 yrs from 1988 to 2000 to win a ring.
At least during that stretch, we were drafting and developing players. The team was young and watchable. It was apparent what Jerry West and Mitch were doing at the time. The journey to the rings in 2000's were amazing. Great times.


Yup. Don't forget drafting Fisher. Don't win those 09, 10 rings without him. You can't just throw out all the draft picks and then expect miracles.


You forget we let Fisher go for 3-4 yrs. By bad luck for Fisher (and good luck for the Lakers), he came back when were back to contending.

So please don't act like Fisher was here the whole time.


That is certainly true, but Fisher's familiarity with the Lakers is why he rejoined them and not some other contending team, such as the Spurs. Don't forget the Lakers still managed to accumulate young talent next to the main core. Bynum was great defensively and reached all-star level. Farmar was serviceable off the bench and part of the "bench mob". I had my issues with Sasha and Luke but they provided rotation minutes and still helped the team in the playoffs. You can't just throw it all away and replace them with "vets" the way Rob did. Development and continuity matter a great deal. There has to be some kind of dynamic and synergy between the young talent and the main core. That's how many of these teams are thriving today.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 9:01 pm    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
AD23 wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
AD23 wrote:
What if we didn't do the trade and waited a decade plus for a ring?

How quickly you forget it took good 12 yrs from 1988 to 2000 to win a ring.
At least during that stretch, we were drafting and developing players. The team was young and watchable. It was apparent what Jerry West and Mitch were doing at the time. The journey to the rings in 2000's were amazing. Great times.


Yup. Don't forget drafting Fisher. Don't win those 09, 10 rings without him. You can't just throw out all the draft picks and then expect miracles.


You forget we let Fisher go for 3-4 yrs. By bad luck for Fisher (and good luck for the Lakers), he came back when were back to contending.

So please don't act like Fisher was here the whole time.


That is certainly true, but Fisher's familiarity with the Lakers is why he rejoined them and not some other contending team, such as the Spurs. Don't forget the Lakers still managed to accumulate young talent next to the main core. Bynum was great defensively and reached all-star level. Farmar was serviceable off the bench and part of the "bench mob". I had my issues with Sasha and Luke but they provided rotation minutes and still helped the team in the playoffs. You can't just throw it all away and replace them with "vets" the way Rob did. Development and continuity matter a great deal. There has to be some kind of dynamic and synergy between the young talent and the main core. That's how many of these teams are thriving today.
And the MAIN Ingredient in our dynasty was Bean. We had him since jump.
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 4:11 am    Post subject:

You cant just throw a bunch of players together and think you are instantly going to win a championship with absolutely no continuity whatsoever.

Even the 2020 title team had a core of players that had played together for multiple years (LeBron, Kuz, AC, KCP, Mcgee, Rondo)

THAT MATTERS.

This front office seriously stripped the team of their identity & continuity and thought that was a good idea.

Every championship Laker team ive witnessed in my lifetime had some sort of core players who were either homegrown or had been with the franchise for multiple years.

Magic, Worthy, Kareem, Cooper, Scott...

Kobe, Shaq, Fox, Horry, Fisher...

Kobe, Odom, Sasha, Walton, Bynum, Farmar, Pau...

Players who were actually INVESTED.

Not a bunch of old, ring chasing mercenaries who have ZERO ties to the franchise, the fan base or the city.

Rob's logic is so flawed its scary.

That's why im praying this front office and ownership will finally WAKE UP and realize the LeBron/AD window is completely SHUT.

They are not going to be able to build a team in a year's time, have that team gel and most IMPORTANTLY count on AD and LeBron to actually play a full season so they can contend for a title.

ITS. NOT. GOING. TO. HAPPEN.

Blow it up, get a young coach & bring in some , hungry, defensive minded, tenacious DAWGS and build this thing from ground up.

Stop putting off the inevitable.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 5:05 am    Post subject:

I think the AD move in theory was defensible, though we overpaid by IMO one player (Hart) and likely one draft swap. That instantly led to a title.

I think where we went off track is then trading off our pieces for Russ, and not re-signing AC. If we have those pieces, we are still in the playoffs IMO. Whether it's Rob, or Jeanie wanting 3 "superstars," that was a flawed approach that cost us so many pieces, and will take likely another future 1st to extricate ourselves out. Just a cluster F move.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 5:15 am    Post subject:

Do ya'' think (I do) that the Bron-AD still good enough to be a contender if healthy? Than have to go all in and flip Russ
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 5:20 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Do ya'' think (I do) that the Bron-AD still good enough to be a contender if healthy? Than have to go all in and flip Russ


If healthy, sure.

But that's a giant caveat as both have not been able to be healthy. The key was (and should have been) to keep as much depth around them as possible, which we had in 2020 and 2021.

But I don't see the Lakers trading AD/LBJ this offseason. They will probably let LBJ's deal run out, and look into year-to-year deals.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 5:28 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the AD move in theory was defensible, though we overpaid by IMO one player (Hart) and likely one draft swap. That instantly led to a title.

I think where we went off track is then trading off our pieces for Russ, and not re-signing AC. If we have those pieces, we are still in the playoffs IMO. Whether it's Rob, or Jeanie wanting 3 "superstars," that was a flawed approach that cost us so many pieces, and will take likely another future 1st to extricate ourselves out. Just a cluster F move.


No protections on the picks either, so Lakers can't tank their way to a rebuild until 2026. Gonna be super interesting if the Pels land top 4 with that pick and draft someone like Ivey or Banchero.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 5:36 am    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the AD move in theory was defensible, though we overpaid by IMO one player (Hart) and likely one draft swap. That instantly led to a title.

I think where we went off track is then trading off our pieces for Russ, and not re-signing AC. If we have those pieces, we are still in the playoffs IMO. Whether it's Rob, or Jeanie wanting 3 "superstars," that was a flawed approach that cost us so many pieces, and will take likely another future 1st to extricate ourselves out. Just a cluster F move.


No protections on the picks either, so Lakers can't tank their way to a rebuild until 2026. Gonna be super interesting if the Pels land top 4 with that pick and draft someone like Ivey or Banchero.


That's a sunk cost. Don't care about it.

Looking prospectively, Lakers have to minimize giving out future draft picks too (which is why the Russ saga is so frustrating as they will likely dump another future 1st to get rid of him). The key to an LBJ/AD team is surrounding them with depth as it's almost a given they will miss time. Imagine on this 2022 past season, if we still had Kuz/KCP/AC/22nd pick (and whatever we could have traded Trezz for)? I think they could have helped keep the ship afloat like they did when LBJ/AD missed time in 2020-21.

I just don't get why the Rob/Jeanie thought it was a good idea to strip their depth for a has-been former star.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 6:27 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Do ya'' think (I do) that the Bron-AD still good enough to be a contender if healthy? Than have to go all in and flip Russ


Maybe a contender for the conference finals but not a title team. Unless they have a month or more of rest before the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 7:24 am    Post subject:

Late 1st round of the 2019 draft: https://i.imgur.com/pLRy2z1.jpg

Rarity or not, but that's 3 all-star caliber players in the late 1st. One of the deepest drafts in recent memory. Two historically good players + 16 players averaging 10+ ppg, not to mention hustle and defensive guys like Grant Williams, Nic Claxton, Daniel Gafford. 2 out of 3 of those guys were drafted in the second round. So yeah, I'll never be down with throwing away more draft picks.
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