"We Gave Away A Decade Worth of Talent for AD"
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gng930
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 9:58 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
gng930 wrote:
The problem wasn't so much that they pursued that 3rd superstar, it's that they over-committed and ended up with a poor fit. Does anyone doubt these past 2 seasons go differently if they ended up with CP3 instead before the Suns snatched him up? Westbrook was supposed to be the regular-season insurance policy when we already had a better one with depth and a defensive system that players bought into.

As good as CP3 is, and yes no argument about your point, if we have no depth but CP3+old Bron+injured AD we're about at 45 wins. Better, yes. We're a playoff team at least. But we still need some talent around the big 3 that can defend the other 2 spots. That's what Pelinka downplays in his quest for big 3s. Big 3s come at a cost, usually. Depth. I was really trying to look at the optimistic side, where THT steps up defensively, Monk improves on D, Nunn make a big impact. Dwight/DAJ can still play etc but none of that happened, and what other teams dumped or passed on, we picked up. Because we had limited resources. That's the same situation we would have been in with CP3/Kawhi, IMO, only because Kawhi/CP3 are better fits/players than WB, the end results wouldn't be as dire.


Which is basically what you got in 2020-2021 (42 wins). This underscores the point that it still boils down to health no matter what you surround them with. The problem wasn't that they pursued a 3rd superstar, it's that they absolutely committed to it and ended up lowering the floor without really raising the ceiling. You don't overhaul the roster and disrupt continuity for that 3rd superstar unless there is a chance for better synergy. I don't think anybody here was ever convinced of that with Russ.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 12:23 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

The point is: I rather have to spend the FA money (whatever it is) with Pelinka in power THAN Pelinka trading away assets instead. That's my main point. Of the two scenarios, I think we are better off giving Pelinka FA money to work with. Hence letting WB contract expire is not the worst thing to me. I would not move 2 picks to get WB off the team for 2 mediocre overpaid starters who won't tilt old Lebron/injury prone AD into title front runner position. I rather keep our draft picks and limited assets and then add some talent through free agency. If that is adding to old Lebron and AD ok, or if it's adding to just AD so be it. I'm just not for trading ... I think Pelinka doesn't do well on trades and has a better grasp of the FA market and how to lure FAs in.


The proverbial "painted in the corner" scenario.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 3:04 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
The point is: I rather have to spend the FA money (whatever it is) with Pelinka in power THAN Pelinka trading away assets instead. That's my main point. Of the two scenarios, I think we are better off giving Pelinka FA money to work with. Hence letting WB contract expire is not the worst thing to me. I would not move 2 picks to get WB off the team for 2 mediocre overpaid starters who won't tilt old Lebron/injury prone AD into title front runner position. I rather keep our draft picks and limited assets and then add some talent through free agency. If that is adding to old Lebron and AD ok, or if it's adding to just AD so be it. I'm just not for trading ... I think Pelinka doesn't do well on trades and has a better grasp of the FA market and how to lure FAs in.


Okay, but what free agents has Pelinka lured, other than vet mins? KCP and Harrell were favors to Rich Paul. Green was decent. Nunn was decent, even if he got hurt. I might be forgetting a couple, but no one significant.

I don’t disagree with your premise about Westbrook, and I agree with your point about Pelinka and trades. I just can’t find much reason for optimism when it comes to free agents.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 4:01 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
The point is: I rather have to spend the FA money (whatever it is) with Pelinka in power THAN Pelinka trading away assets instead. That's my main point. Of the two scenarios, I think we are better off giving Pelinka FA money to work with. Hence letting WB contract expire is not the worst thing to me. I would not move 2 picks to get WB off the team for 2 mediocre overpaid starters who won't tilt old Lebron/injury prone AD into title front runner position. I rather keep our draft picks and limited assets and then add some talent through free agency. If that is adding to old Lebron and AD ok, or if it's adding to just AD so be it. I'm just not for trading ... I think Pelinka doesn't do well on trades and has a better grasp of the FA market and how to lure FAs in.


Okay, but what free agents has Pelinka lured, other than vet mins? KCP and Harrell were favors to Rich Paul. Green was decent. Nunn was decent, even if he got hurt. I might be forgetting a couple, but no one significant.

I don’t disagree with your premise about Westbrook, and I agree with your point about Pelinka and trades. I just can’t find much reason for optimism when it comes to free agents.

I believe Lebron was through Rich Paul. Didn't the Lakers first trade for KCP, establish some sort of trust with Rich and then Lebron signs a year later. That's sort of what it has been since then, where Rich has been in bed with Pelinka the last few years. I have no idea what Pelinka would be like without Rich, and maybe it will be scary bad, or maybe he will make better decisions. All I do know as a former agent, he is probably much better at knowing the FA market and assessing player value/drawing players in (Good salesman PR work) than he is making trades.

To me, draft and FA are where this FO would be able to get the Lakers back into a solid spot. They've been ok/above average at both aspects while pretty bad at trades. So unless there is a regime change, I want us to keep our draft picks and I want us to have some capspace vs watching Pelinka negotiate trades.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 7:17 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
The point is: I rather have to spend the FA money (whatever it is) with Pelinka in power THAN Pelinka trading away assets instead. That's my main point. Of the two scenarios, I think we are better off giving Pelinka FA money to work with. Hence letting WB contract expire is not the worst thing to me. I would not move 2 picks to get WB off the team for 2 mediocre overpaid starters who won't tilt old Lebron/injury prone AD into title front runner position. I rather keep our draft picks and limited assets and then add some talent through free agency. If that is adding to old Lebron and AD ok, or if it's adding to just AD so be it. I'm just not for trading ... I think Pelinka doesn't do well on trades and has a better grasp of the FA market and how to lure FAs in.


Okay, but what free agents has Pelinka lured, other than vet mins? KCP and Harrell were favors to Rich Paul. Green was decent. Nunn was decent, even if he got hurt. I might be forgetting a couple, but no one significant.

I don’t disagree with your premise about Westbrook, and I agree with your point about Pelinka and trades. I just can’t find much reason for optimism when it comes to free agents.

I believe Lebron was through Rich Paul. Didn't the Lakers first trade for KCP, establish some sort of trust with Rich and then Lebron signs a year later. That's sort of what it has been since then, where Rich has been in bed with Pelinka the last few years. I have no idea what Pelinka would be like without Rich, and maybe it will be scary bad, or maybe he will make better decisions. All I do know as a former agent, he is probably much better at knowing the FA market and assessing player value/drawing players in (Good salesman PR work) than he is making trades.

To me, draft and FA are where this FO would be able to get the Lakers back into a solid spot. They've been ok/above average at both aspects while pretty bad at trades. So unless there is a regime change, I want us to keep our draft picks and I want us to have some capspace vs watching Pelinka negotiate trades.


We signed KCP as a free agent. That may have been a precursor to signing Lebron. A lot of us assume that to be the case. Having said that, Pelinka never signed another major free agent, unless you stretch to include Green or Harrell. I see Pelinka as pretty much of a blank slate when it comes to building through free agency. I don't hold George and Leonard against him.

But here's the catch: Valuing free agents is different from constructing a roster. At this point, I have not seen anything that tells me that Pelinka is good at roster construction. Instead, we've seen him pick up players like Schroder, Harrell, and Westbrook, who were not good fits for the roster or the coaching philosophy. (Schroder actually worked out okay, but not great.)

We need a unified plan going forward, including buy-in from Jeanie and from the next head coach. So far, we haven't had a plan other than trying to build a three-superstar team. Jeanie bought into it, and for a while it worked with Vogel, but . . . well, here we are. In hindsight, after the bubble title, we should have focused on consolidating what we had, rather than continuing to tinker and looking for a third superstar. But that is water under the bridge now.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 7:19 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
The point is: I rather have to spend the FA money (whatever it is) with Pelinka in power THAN Pelinka trading away assets instead. That's my main point. Of the two scenarios, I think we are better off giving Pelinka FA money to work with. Hence letting WB contract expire is not the worst thing to me. I would not move 2 picks to get WB off the team for 2 mediocre overpaid starters who won't tilt old Lebron/injury prone AD into title front runner position. I rather keep our draft picks and limited assets and then add some talent through free agency. If that is adding to old Lebron and AD ok, or if it's adding to just AD so be it. I'm just not for trading ... I think Pelinka doesn't do well on trades and has a better grasp of the FA market and how to lure FAs in.


Okay, but what free agents has Pelinka lured, other than vet mins? KCP and Harrell were favors to Rich Paul. Green was decent. Nunn was decent, even if he got hurt. I might be forgetting a couple, but no one significant.

I don’t disagree with your premise about Westbrook, and I agree with your point about Pelinka and trades. I just can’t find much reason for optimism when it comes to free agents.


Obviously it didn't work out but I thought at the time it was pretty impressive that they managed to get Drummond. I would imagine as a former agent he knows what players want as much as anything else. Whether they're able to fulfill that is a different matter.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 7:34 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
The point is: I rather have to spend the FA money (whatever it is) with Pelinka in power THAN Pelinka trading away assets instead. That's my main point. Of the two scenarios, I think we are better off giving Pelinka FA money to work with. Hence letting WB contract expire is not the worst thing to me. I would not move 2 picks to get WB off the team for 2 mediocre overpaid starters who won't tilt old Lebron/injury prone AD into title front runner position. I rather keep our draft picks and limited assets and then add some talent through free agency. If that is adding to old Lebron and AD ok, or if it's adding to just AD so be it. I'm just not for trading ... I think Pelinka doesn't do well on trades and has a better grasp of the FA market and how to lure FAs in.


Okay, but what free agents has Pelinka lured, other than vet mins? KCP and Harrell were favors to Rich Paul. Green was decent. Nunn was decent, even if he got hurt. I might be forgetting a couple, but no one significant.

I don’t disagree with your premise about Westbrook, and I agree with your point about Pelinka and trades. I just can’t find much reason for optimism when it comes to free agents.

I believe Lebron was through Rich Paul. Didn't the Lakers first trade for KCP, establish some sort of trust with Rich and then Lebron signs a year later. That's sort of what it has been since then, where Rich has been in bed with Pelinka the last few years. I have no idea what Pelinka would be like without Rich, and maybe it will be scary bad, or maybe he will make better decisions. All I do know as a former agent, he is probably much better at knowing the FA market and assessing player value/drawing players in (Good salesman PR work) than he is making trades.

To me, draft and FA are where this FO would be able to get the Lakers back into a solid spot. They've been ok/above average at both aspects while pretty bad at trades. So unless there is a regime change, I want us to keep our draft picks and I want us to have some capspace vs watching Pelinka negotiate trades.


We signed KCP as a free agent. That may have been a precursor to signing Lebron. A lot of us assume that to be the case. Having said that, Pelinka never signed another major free agent, unless you stretch to include Green or Harrell. I see Pelinka as pretty much of a blank slate when it comes to building through free agency. I don't hold George and Leonard against him.

But here's the catch: Valuing free agents is different from constructing a roster. At this point, I have not seen anything that tells me that Pelinka is good at roster construction. Instead, we've seen him pick up players like Schroder, Harrell, and Westbrook, who were not good fits for the roster or the coaching philosophy. (Schroder actually worked out okay, but not great.)

We need a unified plan going forward, including buy-in from Jeanie and from the next head coach. So far, we haven't had a plan other than trying to build a three-superstar team. Jeanie bought into it, and for a while it worked with Vogel, but . . . well, here we are. In hindsight, after the bubble title, we should have focused on consolidating what we had, rather than continuing to tinker and looking for a third superstar. But that is water under the bridge now.


After seeing what playoff Rondo did for Lebron in the bubble, I could see the reasoning behind Schroeder and how someone like that might prolong Lebron's career. At his price, Gasol made sense too and we're seeing now how much Wes still has in the tank. Harrell was an unmitigated disaster and cost us better fits in Dwight and arguably Javale. The argument could have been made that it didn't make sense to keep three true centers on the roster but that's precisely what happened by the end of the season. And we all saw how poorly Harrell handled the benching compared to Javale and Dwight.

Even then, we are really forgetting how good the team was before the injury bugs hit which was a near-inevitability with the short offseason. Gasol, Schro, and Wes all bought into our defensive philosophy and it can't be understated how valuable Dwight and Javale were to team chemistry. Without trying to beat a dead horse, you swap Harrell for a wing like Crowder or even Burks or Justin Holiday and I would have bet on that team against anybody.

On a side note, I think they over-committed to developing THT which also screams Klutch favor. I think they would have benefitted more from trying to integrate Wes in anticipation of a playoff run.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 7:41 am    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:


We are really forgetting how good the team was before the injury bugs hit which was a near-inevitability .

facts show pre bubble- bron got hurt and led us to lottery, since bubble, injured both years resulting in 1st round bounce and lottery. So without a long 4+ month rest, the only inevitability is that Bron gets hurt. Doesnt matter how good we may or may not be.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 7:51 am    Post subject:

Injuries are part of the game, so I'm not a big fan of that excuse these days. As Joe Lacob said, it's data. If you're over 30, there is a high probability you will get hurt, especially in the modern pace and space era. Look at KD, PG13, Kawhi, Lebron, Curry, etc. Aging stars will get hurt no matter what. Even Lillard and Beal, two of the best scorers in the NBA, missed huge chunk of games. The way to counter that is by drafting well and adding depth. Lebron got hurt from carrying the team, so I totally understand Pelinka's rationale for adding Westbrook, because he's a pretty durable player for someone over 30.

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I don’t view it as a two-timeline thing. I view it as what we need to do to be the best team we can be now and for the future. We have to think of both. I really believe in that.

“There are a couple teams, I’m not going to say who, there’s some other teams that went all-in on older players. And older players do get injured. That’s the thing you have to remember. Suppose we had made a trade, traded away all our youth, for I don’t know, you name the guy, and they’re injured, out for the year. Anytime you’re over 30, 32, 35, these people get injured. It’s data.

“Having a Jordan Poole emerge at 22 and a Kuminga, who obviously is incredibly talented, isn’t playing so much so far yet in this series, but I think he will have his role … and (James) Wiseman coming back next year, (Moses) Moody … I just think we’re set up for the future. And yet we’re really good now.”

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 7:51 am    Post subject:

Halflife - That's an oversimplification, he was healthy when the season was postponed which you could argue was the benefit of a 6+ month offseason which he will also be enjoying this year. Another fact is that getting 200+ pounds (Solomon Jones) thrown at your legs will probably cause injury. If you're talking about a long offseason and/or not having to carry a bum roster (which to be fair he had a hand in), I think that becomes less of an inevitability. AD on the other hand...
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 8:00 am    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Injuries are part of the game, so I'm not a big fan of that excuse these days. As Joe Lacob said, it's data. If you're over 30, there is a high probability you will get hurt, especially in the modern pace and space era. Look at KD, PG13, Kawhi, Lebron, Curry, etc. Aging stars will get hurt no matter what. Even Lillard and Beal, two of the best scorers in the NBA, missed huge chunk of games. The way to counter that is by drafting well and adding depth. Lebron got hurt from carrying the team, so I totally understand Pelinka's rationale for adding Westbrook, because he's a pretty durable player for someone over 30.


Where was that depth in the 2019 Finals? Did it prevent their slide in the standings when Curry, Dray, and Klay all took turns on IR? You can't always plan for when your best players go down. And it's also easy for him to say that now after leveraging a mega FA obtained via a CBA fluke into Wiggins and Kuminga and then also having the luxury of essentially tanking 2 seasons to develop youngsters and grab the #2 overall pick. No doubt Lacob has built a juggernaut but let's also not pretend that their depth wasn't more from unusual circumstances than good planning. It's easy to sing their praises now but let's see if Wiseman becomes Darko 2.0 before putting them on a pedestal.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 8:46 am    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Injuries are part of the game, so I'm not a big fan of that excuse these days. As Joe Lacob said, it's data. If you're over 30, there is a high probability you will get hurt, especially in the modern pace and space era. Look at KD, PG13, Kawhi, Lebron, Curry, etc. Aging stars will get hurt no matter what. Even Lillard and Beal, two of the best scorers in the NBA, missed huge chunk of games. The way to counter that is by drafting well and adding depth. Lebron got hurt from carrying the team, so I totally understand Pelinka's rationale for adding Westbrook, because he's a pretty durable player for someone over 30.


Where was that depth in the 2019 Finals? Did it prevent their slide in the standings when Curry, Dray, and Klay all took turns on IR? You can't always plan for when your best players go down. And it's also easy for him to say that now after leveraging a mega FA obtained via a CBA fluke into Wiggins and Kuminga and then also having the luxury of essentially tanking 2 seasons to develop youngsters and grab the #2 overall pick. No doubt Lacob has built a juggernaut but let's also not pretend that their depth wasn't more from unusual circumstances than good planning. It's easy to sing their praises now but let's see if Wiseman becomes Darko 2.0 before putting them on a pedestal.


Broken record time: The Warriors' luxury tax bill this year is larger than the payroll of any other team. Lacob can pat himself on the back all he wants, but the current Warriors team is built more on luxury tax tolerance than brilliance. When asked to choose between aging veterans and young players, the Warriors' answer was "Both, please."
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 9:07 am    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:
Even then, we are really forgetting how good the team was before the injury bugs hit which was a near-inevitability with the short offseason. Gasol, Schro, and Wes all bought into our defensive philosophy and it can't be understated how valuable Dwight and Javale were to team chemistry. Without trying to beat a dead horse, you swap Harrell for a wing like Crowder or even Burks or Justin Holiday and I would have bet on that team against anybody.


Sure, though I didn't have as high an opinion of that team as some of you do. We had a good record, but the schedule was soft, and the circumstances of the pandemic made things weird. My opinion at the time was that we weren't as good as the previous year. And I definitely did not (and do not) buy into the "short offseason" excuse. We had played 29 games over six and a half months (in the bubble with no travel), then got a two-month offseason.

But back in the present, we're talking about Pelinka's track record. Signing Schroder and Harrell (and coughing up another first round pick) did not impress me at the time. So we signed the SMotY and the runner up. That excited some people, but I think we all know that SMotY is an odd award. Did Pelinka really think that Schroder was going to be a good fit with Lebron, so much so that it was worth giving up Green and a first round pick? Did Pelinka really think that Harrell was a good fit for Vogel, especially when the Clippers didn't seem interested in keeping him?

I hope that I am underestimating Pelinka or that he has learned from some of this. However, if you look at the eight teams that are still alive in the playoffs, you can see an intelligent plan in the roster construction. None of the rosters are perfect, but you can see what the front offices are trying to do. That's where we need to be.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:03 am    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:
Halflife - That's an oversimplification, he was healthy when the season was postponed which you could argue was the benefit of a 6+ month offseason which he will also be enjoying this year. Another fact is that getting 200+ pounds (Solomon Jones) thrown at your legs will probably cause injury. If you're talking about a long offseason and/or not having to carry a bum roster (which to be fair he had a hand in), I think that becomes less of an inevitability. AD on the other hand...

Bubble year was magical. However, in normalish years Bron has not been able to stay healthy for the full season. His injuries seem to come near the end. yr1, yr3, yr4. Year 2 he had a huge rest period. I give Vogel and even spoelstra a ton of credit. They were able to keep their team engaged during a time when a lot of players were uninterested. Some even saying it felt like practice.

We have a 4yr body of work from bron. You can blame whatever you want and point to whatever you want. Facts are, 3 out of 4 years have been horrid. 2 lotteries, 1 first round bounce.

Blaming injuries is fine, but that's part of who he is. he is no longer iron man. He can no longer be counted on to be available.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:05 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
gng930 wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Injuries are part of the game, so I'm not a big fan of that excuse these days. As Joe Lacob said, it's data. If you're over 30, there is a high probability you will get hurt, especially in the modern pace and space era. Look at KD, PG13, Kawhi, Lebron, Curry, etc. Aging stars will get hurt no matter what. Even Lillard and Beal, two of the best scorers in the NBA, missed huge chunk of games. The way to counter that is by drafting well and adding depth. Lebron got hurt from carrying the team, so I totally understand Pelinka's rationale for adding Westbrook, because he's a pretty durable player for someone over 30.


Where was that depth in the 2019 Finals? Did it prevent their slide in the standings when Curry, Dray, and Klay all took turns on IR? You can't always plan for when your best players go down. And it's also easy for him to say that now after leveraging a mega FA obtained via a CBA fluke into Wiggins and Kuminga and then also having the luxury of essentially tanking 2 seasons to develop youngsters and grab the #2 overall pick. No doubt Lacob has built a juggernaut but let's also not pretend that their depth wasn't more from unusual circumstances than good planning. It's easy to sing their praises now but let's see if Wiseman becomes Darko 2.0 before putting them on a pedestal.


Broken record time: The Warriors' luxury tax bill this year is larger than the payroll of any other team. Lacob can pat himself on the back all he wants, but the current Warriors team is built more on luxury tax tolerance than brilliance. When asked to choose between aging veterans and young players, the Warriors' answer was "Both, please."


It certainly helps when you're willing to pay $80+ million for one year of Kelly Oubre on your lottery-bound team. I give them a little more credit than you might though. Getting Wiggins and Kuminga for an awkward fit like DLO was highway robbery.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:11 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
gng930 wrote:
Even then, we are really forgetting how good the team was before the injury bugs hit which was a near-inevitability with the short offseason. Gasol, Schro, and Wes all bought into our defensive philosophy and it can't be understated how valuable Dwight and Javale were to team chemistry. Without trying to beat a dead horse, you swap Harrell for a wing like Crowder or even Burks or Justin Holiday and I would have bet on that team against anybody.


Sure, though I didn't have as high an opinion of that team as some of you do. We had a good record, but the schedule was soft, and the circumstances of the pandemic made things weird. My opinion at the time was that we weren't as good as the previous year. And I definitely did not (and do not) buy into the "short offseason" excuse. We had played 29 games over six and a half months (in the bubble with no travel), then got a two-month offseason.

But back in the present, we're talking about Pelinka's track record. Signing Schroder and Harrell (and coughing up another first round pick) did not impress me at the time. So we signed the SMotY and the runner up. That excited some people, but I think we all know that SMotY is an odd award. Did Pelinka really think that Schroder was going to be a good fit with Lebron, so much so that it was worth giving up Green and a first round pick? Did Pelinka really think that Harrell was a good fit for Vogel, especially when the Clippers didn't seem interested in keeping him?

I hope that I am underestimating Pelinka or that he has learned from some of this. However, if you look at the eight teams that are still alive in the playoffs, you can see an intelligent plan in the roster construction. None of the rosters are perfect, but you can see what the front offices are trying to do. That's where we need to be.


I think we just have to agree to disagree. The schedule was soft but they were also dealing with new moving parts. The vision and construction was solid - they managed to secure what they thought was a younger and more reliable version of Rondo, at least one version of their death lineup from the 2020 playoffs while increasing versatility with a floor-spacing center and a veteran wing. The obvious mistake was choosing Harrell over a bigger 3/D wing, Dwight, and arguably Javale.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:18 am    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
gng930 wrote:
Halflife - That's an oversimplification, he was healthy when the season was postponed which you could argue was the benefit of a 6+ month offseason which he will also be enjoying this year. Another fact is that getting 200+ pounds (Solomon Jones) thrown at your legs will probably cause injury. If you're talking about a long offseason and/or not having to carry a bum roster (which to be fair he had a hand in), I think that becomes less of an inevitability. AD on the other hand...

Bubble year was magical. However, in normalish years Bron has not been able to stay healthy for the full season. His injuries seem to come near the end. yr1, yr3, yr4. Year 2 he had a huge rest period. I give Vogel and even spoelstra a ton of credit. They were able to keep their team engaged during a time when a lot of players were uninterested. Some even saying it felt like practice.

We have a 4yr body of work from bron. You can blame whatever you want and point to whatever you want. Facts are, 3 out of 4 years have been horrid. 2 lotteries, 1 first round bounce.

Blaming injuries is fine, but that's part of who he is. he is no longer iron man. He can no longer be counted on to be available.


Nobody expects him to be an ironman any longer; the idea has always been to establish solid playoff positioning and hope for reasonably good health at the right time. We knew it was a matter of time once Lebron signed. If you're resigned to the fact that he won't be available when needed then it's pointless to argue who we should be surrounding him with. I admit I've steered us off course a bit so I'll leave it at that.
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 4:40 am    Post subject:

I still feel even if it was luck or whatever, that led to the 2020 title, because our stars were so healthy, I think the way the roster was put together also made a big impact, as did the coaching staff we had then (Vogel/Kidd, Rondo as a floor general coach).

We had the ingredients we needed to win a title. 2 stars playing top 5 in the NBA. There was no doubt AD was the best big that year. Bron was on a mission to disprove the washed King angle. The Lakers hired Frank who helped install the best defense in the NBA. The role guys were a ton of defensive wings that were ok with just playing off Lebron/AD ball like KCP, Caruso, Green etc. And we had the right kind of vet min veteran leadership with Dudley/Rondo. Also having a floor general off the bench like Rondo. Not to mention the size/athleticism that McGee/Howard had that year.

Basically, whether it was a once in a lifetime fortune that AD/Bron played that level, we wouldn't have won a title without the pieces around them. So I think when we made the AD trade, we had all the ingredients we needed. There is no reason this trade would be even considered bad, by a reasonable person, had Pelinka/FO not screwed up the assets that they had after the title win in 2020. You're talking letting go of 2 first round picks, 25 year old Kuzma, 27 year old Caruso, 29 year old KCP, Danny Green, Trez etc. for basically nothing to show for it but 1 year of Dennis and 1 year of Westbrook. That's horrible asset management.
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 5:06 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Basically, whether it was a once in a lifetime fortune that AD/Bron played that level, we wouldn't have won a title without the pieces around them. So I think when we made the AD trade, we had all the ingredients we needed. There is no reason this trade would be even considered bad, by a reasonable person, had Pelinka/FO not screwed up the assets that they had after the title win in 2020. You're talking letting go of 2 first round picks, 25 year old Kuzma, 27 year old Caruso, 29 year old KCP, Danny Green, Trez etc. for basically nothing to show for it but 1 year of Dennis and 1 year of Westbrook. That's horrible asset management.


Yes and no. Yes, it would look better if we'd stood pat after the title. But it's not really that simple. Rondo was going to leave for the money. I'm not sure how much Howard had left in the tank. Keeping Green was going to be problematic. Whatever we did, the injuries to Davis and Lebron were going to screw us in the end. To say the least, I'm not going to defend the moves that came after the title, but the situation was far from ideal in October 2020 after the non-parade.

More fundamentally, I disagree with the idea that you can break up the series of transactions from the firing of Jim/Mitch to the present and act like they are independent. There was never an intention to stop with the Davis trade. But I'm getting into broken record territory again.
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 7:57 am    Post subject:

^
There is standing pat, and there's having some continuity and adding pieces with some upgrades around a core. That's how I believe Pelinka got into such a bad spot. Disregard for what got him to the title, and a lot of focus on the "star" appeal.

We can do the exact same AD trade and have a better executive execute trades with some continuity and what the coaching staff needs in mind, and you're sitting right now with AD, Bron being injured/old, but a lot of young role players who can get you wins and also some draft picks that can help (that we traded away 1 year of Dennis/WB). Sure when AD is hurt, we're not a championship level team, but we didn't need to be this bad. The reason the AD trade looks bad at some junctures, is our reliance on him is incredible. We should not need to rely on AD to make the playoffs. You have Lebron, and if you had some continuity and a good executive making roster decisions, the Lakers would be a playoff level team without AD, and a championship threat with a healthy AD. That's how it should have been from 2019-2024, but Pelinka's inexperience and our FO's desire for star appeal did us in.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 10:00 am    Post subject:

^^^

We really don't disagree about anything, but we look at it from different angles. As I see it, this was never about Davis, really. It was all about maximizing the Lebron window and building a super team. This was never about just being good enough to make the playoffs. The young(er) role players and draft picks were always going to be disposable. Everything we did was consistent, at least until the Westbrook trade bombed. I like to think that the front office is reevaluating now, but we shall see.

(Broken record warning.) The idea was to sign Lebron and then build a super team for him. We started dumping younger players (Russell) even before we signed Lebron, because we wanted cap space to chase free agents. Paul George said no, which threw a wrench into the works. So Lebron and Rich Paul legally tampered with Davis. We offered the kitchen sink to the Pelicans at the trade deadline, but they wouldn't bite. This all but guaranteed that we would offer the kitchen sink again in the summer, which we did. Kawhi would have been the third piece, but he said no. Thankfully, we won the bubble title, or else all of this would look far worse than it does now. We had no cap space at that point, and there were no big name free agents available anyway. So we picked up the top two finishers in the SMotY voting, and said "Ta da!" That didn't work out. But the following year Westbrook became available, and we were all over it. There's your super team!

So I don't truly disagree with anything you're saying. I just resist separating the different transactions (in this case, before and after the Davis trade). It's all cut from the same cloth.
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 9:46 pm    Post subject:

KCP
Hield
Austin
Lebron
AD

That could have been an interesting lineup by year's end.
We would have had to lived through this idiotic lineup to start though:

KCP
Hield
Lebron
AD
Jordan

What's your point, epic? Well, just saying we were ok the last 2 years prior. It was the Westbrook trade that derailed us.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 5:08 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
KCP
Hield
Austin
Lebron
AD

That could have been an interesting lineup by year's end.
We would have had to lived through this idiotic lineup to start though:

KCP
Hield
Lebron
AD
Jordan

What's your point, epic? Well, just saying we were ok the last 2 years prior. It was the Westbrook trade that derailed us.


The crazy part of the Russ experience is that yes, it derailed us, but we will have to likely take back some longer contracts and give up a 1st to get rid of Russ. So the lingering consequences of Russ will take years to fully know.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 7:34 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
KCP
Hield
Austin
Lebron
AD

That could have been an interesting lineup by year's end.
We would have had to lived through this idiotic lineup to start though:

KCP
Hield
Lebron
AD
Jordan

What's your point, epic? Well, just saying we were ok the last 2 years prior. It was the Westbrook trade that derailed us.


The crazy part of the Russ experience is that yes, it derailed us, but we will have to likely take back some longer contracts and give up a 1st to get rid of Russ. So the lingering consequences of Russ will take years to fully know.


They might choose to but they don’t have to. Let Westbrook’s contract expire and then move on. Of course I am guessing that the FO won’t do the obvious.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 8:01 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
KCP
Hield
Austin
Lebron
AD

That could have been an interesting lineup by year's end.
We would have had to lived through this idiotic lineup to start though:

KCP
Hield
Lebron
AD
Jordan

What's your point, epic? Well, just saying we were ok the last 2 years prior. It was the Westbrook trade that derailed us.


The crazy part of the Russ experience is that yes, it derailed us, but we will have to likely take back some longer contracts and give up a 1st to get rid of Russ. So the lingering consequences of Russ will take years to fully know.


They might choose to but they don’t have to. Let Westbrook’s contract expire and then move on. Of course I am guessing that the FO won’t do the obvious.


I'm not sure we can endure another year of fighting for the play-in tournament.
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