Who do we keep? Who do we re-sign?
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troy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject:

MikeTrout wrote:
troy wrote:
I love AC. Great defender, smart player. But he has not improved his shooting, outside or otherwise, and I'm sick and tired of this Lakers team not having shooters. I need players to ascend, not be steady, or even decline. His success is tied to Lebron, but Lebron is aging and we need players that can perform individually, not as a supplement. AC can go.

I hate Dennis Schroder. I don't like him as a player, or a person. You don't come to my Lakers and start demanding things, acting like you're the best thing around when you can't be relied upon to even get a Covid shot. Beyond my personal hatred of him, he's not a good player. He can't hit simple mid range shots, he can't finish with consistency, and he can't run the offense. More than everything else, he's not worth what he wants. Sign and trade, but otherwise, DS can go.

I like Andre Drummond. Why? Because we need someone to do the inside muscle work that we can't rely on the fragile Anthony Davis to do. I tend to go with what works, and what worked when we won it all was a huge, physical front court that could control the boards and intimidate defensively (Dwight/McGee). I come from the mindset that good defense can produce offense, so the priority should be on stopping shots. Drummond, if Vogel can commit to him as the starting center, would come around defensively and as a rebounder for the Lakers. And he'll pick up those opportunity points as well. Drummond is a must keep.

Montrez Harrell is a question mark. Personally, I like his style. I like his passion, his enthusiasm, his toughness. I like his ability to score midrange and low, two things we need because, again (just like with Drummond) we can't rely on Anthony Davis to do that sort of physical work inside, unless we really need it during the playoffs. What people don't understand is that to preserve Anthony Davis during the regular season, we NEED players like Drummond and Trez. Trez, to me, is a must keep, but I suspect he walks.

McClemore/Matthews we both need to keep because WE.NEED.SHOOTERS. Not sure why we over-think this game. Basketball is simple; you win by scoring more points than the other team, and you score points by making baskets. With so many teams in the NBA that shoot from the 3 so effectively, we need players to keep up. These two are our best 3 point shooters, so of course, we need to keep them.

I really like THT because he represents our future. Look, Lebron won't play forever, and we need that budding superstar to pair along side AD when Lebron is gone. THT has the ability to break down defenses, he has the ability to shoot the 3, and he is long and strong enough to play good defense. Moreso, he's young...and he's a healthy sort of young, someone we can depend on not to get injured so often. We need that one young Laker that can turn into something special a few years in, and that's THT. Is he raw? Yes. Is he learning? Hell yes. Absolutely must keep.

KCP? Honestly, Vogel should tell KCP to do one thing and focus in on it...play defense. What I realized this season is that KCP is a good to excellent defender, and we need that. His weakness is that he can't shoot consistently, so I'd tell him to develop a mid range game, don't rely so much on the 3 point line, and be the best defender he can be. Keep him with those criteria in place.

Dudley, Kieff and Gasol can go. I like Kieff, as long he remains cheap. Gasol doesn't fit this team's need as a defender and rebounder. Dudley should retire and move to the coaching staff.

Lastly, the one that needs to get on the first flight out of town as DS is Kuzma. I don't hate Kuzma. I've been very patient with him. But, I just don't think he'll get any better, nor do I think he works hard enough to get better. Yes, he improved some on the defensive side, but he strikes me as a player that wants out so that he can start on a team and be the top dog there. I know he signed that $40 million contract, but who wouldn't? And I also think he likes being in LA so that he can run around with models and actresses. Whatever. Package him and trade him to a team that he can start on and flourish. Good for him and the Lakers.


Just gonna say that AC shot 40% from 3 this year.


But how many did he take? Percentages can be misleading. For example, if I shoot two 3 pointers and luck out and hit one of them...I'm shooting 50% from the 3.
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LakerSD
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:43 am    Post subject:

Mamba Mentality wrote:
I hope the Lakers don't overvalue THT too much. Trade him if it means maximizing this window for Bron/AD


The thing with THT is he is a Klutch client, so that plays a factor in any potential trade talks.

If THT is moved, it would mean LBJ/AD gave the green light.
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troy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:53 am    Post subject:

waterman40 wrote:
It's not so simple, we can't just let go of the players we think suck, and have very much cash to get replacements. You let go of Kuzma, KCP, Harrell, DS, you are basically getting rookie and free agents minimum deals, and time has seem to show that many players don't play that well in LA. Factor in that other players have had a hard time meshing with Lebron; basically Wade, Bosh, and Irving are the guys who have done really well - and we have AD.

AD needs a big center - so you keep either Gasol or Drummond.

You can probably afford to keep only one of AC or THT. Factor in that you probably need to include THT in a deal with Kuzma and another bigger contract if you are trying to get that illusive third star here.

If Harrell leaves, which is very likely, then that probably creates more minutes for Kuzma. Some of the minimum guys will want to stay, the ones that don't we will replace with other minimum level guys.

There are no minimum deals for a DS replacement that help us. You either need DS or you re-sign him and package him to get a re-signed Lowry, Beal, etc.

Probably the two most important things in the offseason:

Get Lebron and AD 100% healthy

Get all the returning players to work on their outside shooting.

If we bring in anyone new in, they need to be able to shoot when called upon.


They were healthy in the beginning of the season and look at what happened.

Sure we can get a 37 year old Lebron with a ton of mileage, and a historically fragile Anthony Davis healthy over the summer. But we can't rely on them to stay healthy come the playoffs. Especially AD. There is nothing stopping a completely "healthy" AD to get injured yet again and miss 50% of the season, again, claim he's good for the playoffs, again, and then re-injure himself during the playoffs. Again. Nothing.

And have you seen the shooters on the Suns, Utah, Dallas, the east coast teams? Have you seen their ability to shoot and hit the 3 point shot like it was nothing? Hell, we don't even have guys on the Lakers that can hit 2 point shots, let alone 3.

Unless we either somehow get a 3rd star, or have someone currently on our team do the "breakout" thing (THT?), I don't see us winning another ring in the Lebron era. That 2020 championship is proving to be an anomaly that luckily went the Lakers way.
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Lurkernomore
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:32 am    Post subject:

waterman40 wrote:


Unless we either somehow get a 3rd star, or have someone currently on our team do the "breakout" thing (THT?), I don't see us winning another ring in the Lebron era. That 2020 championship is proving to be an anomaly that luckily went the Lakers way.


EXACTLY! We got lucky and won the championship in 2020. That contributed to the FO and fans believing the roster (especially role players that were great in the bubble, Kieff, KCP, Caruso) was better than it really was. We saw the deficiencies in each of these players this year. Risking repeating myself, this roster 3-12 is the WORST in the entire league!

The most depressing thing is the lack of "real" avenues to improve. We have, IIRC, this year's pick, and the TMLE of $6MM. As far as tradeable assets, we have KCP, Kuz and possibly a sign and trade involving DS. That's really it. The cupboard is bare. Think about it. We're counting on Caruso, with all his weaknesses, giving us a hometown discount. We're counting on THT to simultaneously develop a left hand, a reliable jumper, and a concept of defense over one off-season. We're counting on vet minimums to fill out a roster when and I can't imagine these ring chasers choosing the Lakers over Brooklyn, Phoenix, etc.

The AD trade simultaneously decimated our draft assets and our young, potential "breakout" players. Fortunately, we got a championship out of it, but now we're playing the price!
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BLF2145
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:48 am    Post subject:

If this season taught us anything, you don’t keep Dudley. Simply too many injuries and players not performing well to have a player sitting on the bench (even if he is the last guy) that can’t give us anything. There are plenty of guys that had signed for the min that could have helped this year.


Examples:
1) Melo
2) Howard
3) Jeff Green
4) Bazemore
5) Reggie Jackson (buyout I know)
6) Glen Robinson
7) Tyler Johnson
8) Muscala
9) Whiteside
10) Biyombo


All guys that while none being amazing, all would have offered a lot more than Duds can give us at this point. We need as many weapons as possible with AD injury history and Bron aging. We can’t continue to have a roster spot filled by a guy that has zero chance to provide any real value on court. If vets like Wes, LBJ, Gasol, AD etc was not enough to keep team focused, we have a much bigger issue.
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fansincemagic
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:54 pm    Post subject:

A lot has to do with timing. I agree with a lot of popular choice here, but what comes first?

DS wants to literally enter FA, that won't resolve fast unless his agent and LA are both desperate enough to compromise. More likely their first move is using the 1st by draft day, so....

1. Hopefully, the first step resolves in LA landing a clear cut 3rd best player, erring on the side of shooting. They'll shop Kuz, #22 before the pick and may include KCP in the right upgrade with McKinnie and Gasol if needed to match salary. If the right offer doesn't come you have to decide: do you take the lesser offer or draft the player at 22 (thus driving it off the lot and losing value there). Most of us think dealing 22 is a given but it takes two. Guys like Rozier or Hield make sense. Think path of least resistance here, DS made sense last year because OKC clearly was dealing him for a pick.

My guess: Small market Charlotte almost lost Kemba for nothing and no cap space, the same way we feel about DS. Rozier could walk or hold them hostage in a year for a new deal. Ball has the keys, so don't be shocked if KCP and Kuz's deals and champ experience fit the Hornets perfect with the 1st getting a deal done. I think it's an overpay and want Bridges back in return. I think the pieces are there for a pre draft trade. I think LA seriously trades a distant heavily protected 1st to keep THT. They do this trade proactively to get an ideal 3rd scorer with bird rights, plan to match for Bridges as an ideal 3 and D and pay mad luxury tax especially if THT stays. This gives them percieved leverage in DS talks. You either keep both long term, get the right piece in a DS trade or if you lose DS you have what he was supposed to be in Rozier. If not this trade then think Kuz+22 for the best shooter with average defense they can get.


2. AD2 is a wildcard. They promised a starting gig and benched him the last game. His recent quotes sound like he wants to stay, most of us have the "he sucked, vet min or walk" mentality but let's think. It takes one team to pay him better than MLE money or better, but it comes down to how his agent plays it. Don't be shocked if they have yet another agreement with him getting the MLE/TP MLE with a 2nd year PO. LBJ and the FO may want him to fit so bad value wise and see the hole at center and hope he "agrees" to take the offer.

3. THT could in theory be had in the right deal but this likely drags on. He goes to RFA, Lakers wait for him to find an offer to get matched and then do so. No need for THT to rush, teams that strike out on higher targets may then make a better deal as FA goes on. This may take a while, so basically no trade.

4. FA starts, DS shops his freedom and comes to the table with Pelinka. They both talk crazy about teams DS would play for, but as a few FA sign DS knows his options are dwindling and they fear Pelinka will drop and offer to a 3yr deal with a higher average to fit the LBJ timeline. Things get messy and public but we end up back to the 4yr offer, let's say 80M with DS trumpeting how he gave back money to win a ring in LA.

So, my guess is:

DS 30mpg/Caruso 18mpg
Rozier 32mpg/Caruso 8mpg/THT 8mpg
LBJ 32 mpg/THT 16mpg
AD 24mpg/Bridges 24mpg
AD2 24 mpg/AD 8mpg/vet min 8mpg
Wes and another ring chaser

I think though that there would be a more simple 2 for 1 or 3 for 2 (with KCP for a better SG) deal out there. The poster in the other FA thread may be right. Hield is ideal and Kuz plus KCP makes sense and maybe it gets done by itself though the 1st likely has to go out, creating a compound deal with Bagley, but that still looks weird.

If Walton has enough pull maybe the 1st isn't included but a 2nd. Then deal the 1st with Gasol and McKinnie:

DS/Caruso
Hield/THT
James/_____/Wes
AD/Morris
AD2/vet min
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:04 pm    Post subject:

fansincemagic wrote:
A lot has to do with timing. I agree with a lot of popular choice here, but what comes first?

DS wants to literally enter FA, that won't resolve fast unless his agent and LA are both desperate enough to compromise. More likely their first move is using the 1st by draft day, so....

1. Hopefully, the first step resolves in LA landing a clear cut 3rd best player, erring on the side of shooting. They'll shop Kuz, #22 before the pick and may include KCP in the right upgrade with McKinnie and Gasol if needed to match salary. If the right offer doesn't come you have to decide: do you take the lesser offer or draft the player at 22 (thus driving it off the lot and losing value there). Most of us think dealing 22 is a given but it takes two. Guys like Rozier or Hield make sense. Think path of least resistance here, DS made sense last year because OKC clearly was dealing him for a pick.

My guess: Small market Charlotte almost lost Kemba for nothing and no cap space, the same way we feel about DS. Rozier could walk or hold them hostage in a year for a new deal. Ball has the keys, so don't be shocked if KCP and Kuz's deals and champ experience fit the Hornets perfect with the 1st getting a deal done. I think it's an overpay and want Bridges back in return. I think the pieces are there for a pre draft trade. I think LA seriously trades a distant heavily protected 1st to keep THT. They do this trade proactively to get an ideal 3rd scorer with bird rights, plan to match for Bridges as an ideal 3 and D and pay mad luxury tax especially if THT stays. This gives them percieved leverage in DS talks. You either keep both long term, get the right piece in a DS trade or if you lose DS you have what he was supposed to be in Rozier. If not this trade then think Kuz+22 for the best shooter with average defense they can get.


2. AD2 is a wildcard. They promised a starting gig and benched him the last game. His recent quotes sound like he wants to stay, most of us have the "he sucked, vet min or walk" mentality but let's think. It takes one team to pay him better than MLE money or better, but it comes down to how his agent plays it. Don't be shocked if they have yet another agreement with him getting the MLE/TP MLE with a 2nd year PO. LBJ and the FO may want him to fit so bad value wise and see the hole at center and hope he "agrees" to take the offer.

3. THT could in theory be had in the right deal but this likely drags on. He goes to RFA, Lakers wait for him to find an offer to get matched and then do so. No need for THT to rush, teams that strike out on higher targets may then make a better deal as FA goes on. This may take a while, so basically no trade.

4. FA starts, DS shops his freedom and comes to the table with Pelinka. They both talk crazy about teams DS would play for, but as a few FA sign DS knows his options are dwindling and they fear Pelinka will drop and offer to a 3yr deal with a higher average to fit the LBJ timeline. Things get messy and public but we end up back to the 4yr offer, let's say 80M with DS trumpeting how he gave back money to win a ring in LA.

So, my guess is:

DS 30mpg/Caruso 18mpg
Rozier 32mpg/Caruso 8mpg/THT 8mpg
LBJ 32 mpg/THT 16mpg
AD 24mpg/Bridges 24mpg
AD2 24 mpg/AD 8mpg/vet min 8mpg
Wes and another ring chaser

I think though that there would be a more simple 2 for 1 or 3 for 2 (with KCP for a better SG) deal out there. The poster in the other FA thread may be right. Hield is ideal and Kuz plus KCP makes sense and maybe it gets done by itself though the 1st likely has to go out, creating a compound deal with Bagley, but that still looks weird.

If Walton has enough pull maybe the 1st isn't included but a 2nd. Then deal the 1st with Gasol and McKinnie:

DS/Caruso
Hield/THT
James/_____/Wes
AD/Morris
AD2/vet min


Bridges is not some throw in by any means... he's proven to be a great fit next to Melo and part of the excitement that has Buzz City buzzing.

I, just like last summer, love the idea of Hield. Dude, offensively, is the perfect fit next to AD and LBJ and would give a consistent 20ppg. I'd try and swing a Kuzma and #22 package for Hield.
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